Should I renege [on a] job offer?

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preciseman
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Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 7:49 pm

Has anyone ever been in a situation or heard of anyone reneging a job offer for a potentially "better" one in a different industry/country? If so, how did it work out for that person?

Here's my situation: I'm currently about to graduate from undergrad in May and ended up signing at a "tier 2" consulting shop (think Deloitte/LEK/PwC/ATKearney/OliverWyman) last October. Reason is, I absolutely loved the people at this particular shop (very humble and collaborative environment). Just today - I got a call from a bulge bracket to join their investment banking group in Canada since a spot opened up due to one of their incoming analysts reneging. I interviewed for the same group that was located in the USA last fall, but wasn't able to land the offer. To be honest, the only reason I interviewed for IB was because I wanted a offer so I could negotiate a higher salary in consulting (figured it was worth a shot). I really don't want to pursue a career in high finance...doing valuation/merger models for 16 hours a day 6 days a week does NOT sound like fun. Plus - I'd rather not want to have to deal with the more toxic environment that this bank fosters. I'd rather solve real problems that real companies have, and the traveling in consulting was a big consideration for me (I really want to see different cities and countries in the world!).

However, the compensation structure in IB is pretty substantially higher than consulting, probably 30-60k higher depending on how good the group does. The hours suck more though, 85 on the lower end up to 110 per week. Contrast that with consulting, where I get my weekends. Plus, there's always the "prestige" side of things that may include better opportunities after a 2-3 year stint in IB.

It seems like I'm conflicted in 2 ways...

1) My heart tells me to stay in consulting, but I just seem to have a really tough time turning down a really good offer (who the hell turns down a front office role from a bulge bracket!?!)
2) I REALLY don't want to burn any bridges THIS early in my career. The consulting shop I signed with is global, and has offices in pretty much every country in the world. Chances are, I'll probably get blacklisted and it would be extremely difficult to approach them in the future for any other opportunities.

What are your thoughts about this, fellow Bogleheads? Any responses would be extremely helpful!

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Alex Frakt » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:00 pm

If you can live comfortably on the salary from the consultant position, the schedule alone would be reason enough for me not to renege. BTW, it sounds like Goldman isn't actually paying you more (and may be paying you less) on an hourly basis.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by David Jay » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:01 pm

In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:04 pm

Alex Frakt wrote:If you can live comfortably on the salary from the consultant position, the schedule alone would be reason enough for me not to renege. BTW, it sounds like Goldman isn't actually paying you more (and may be paying you less) on an hourly basis.
Definitely..consulting pays me more per hour (plus I'm not adding in the perks of per diem to cover food expenses). Since I will be flying to the client Monday and back Thursday, my firm will also allow me to pick a equal distance flight to a different location to visit for a weekend (which is a HUGE perk for me).

My offer is 72k + 10k sign on + up to ~25% of base as a end of year performance bonus. Expected hours: 60-70.

Their offer is 85k + up to 100% of base as end of year performance bonus. Expected hours 85-110.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Rayandron » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:10 pm

David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day. I personally have never reneged on a job, but I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing). If the OP really wanted to do banking I would say absolutely turn down the consulting gig and go do banking. it will probably annoy the HR person who hired you and did paperwork, but honestly your consulting manager will not even remember your name in 6 months if you quit before starting. Blacklisting is highly overrated as a risk.

With all that said, it sounds like the only reason the OP is considering banking is the higher compensation. There are times when the soul-crushing hours of banking are a necessary evil, for example if somebody's end goal is to work at a hedge fund or PE shop, or if they have a quarter million in debt from undergrad and/or grad school (I know people in both camps), but for the most part, I don't think banking is worth the ill-effects on your mental and physical health and well-being. I would recommend sticking with the consulting gig, although consulting is it's own beast and is not the easiest career to pursue either.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by David Jay » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:15 pm

I was thinking of my word, not the employer's word.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:17 pm

Rayandron wrote:
David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day. I personally have never reneged on a job, but I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing). If the OP really wanted to do banking I would say absolutely turn down the consulting gig and go do banking. it will probably annoy the HR person who hired you and did paperwork, but honestly your consulting manager will not even remember your name in 6 months if you quit before starting. Blacklisting is highly overrated as a risk.

With all that said, it sounds like the only reason the OP is considering banking is the higher compensation. There are times when the soul-crushing hours of banking are a necessary evil, for example if somebody's end goal is to work at a hedge fund or PE shop, or if they have a quarter million in debt from undergrad and/or grad school (I know people in both camps), but for the most part, I don't think banking is worth the ill-effects on your mental and physical health and well-being. I would recommend sticking with the consulting gig, although consulting is it's own beast and is not the easiest career to pursue either.
Lol yep..the higher comp + maybe the POTENTIAL for better exit opps (debatable- from what I hear consulting exit opps are pretty good as well and I'm not going for "Corporate Dev at Apple or Bust"). The irony is I'm a finance major and I really don't even like finance. I interned in sales and trading and noped outta there pretty quickly!

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Rayandron » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:22 pm

David Jay wrote:I was thinking of my word, not the employer's word.
It was clear what you meant. It is less clear to somebody newly entering the workforce that a promise from an employer means nothing until the check clears in your bank account.
preciseman wrote: Lol yep..the higher comp + maybe the POTENTIAL for better exit opps (debatable- from what I hear consulting exit opps are pretty good as well and I'm not going for "Corporate Dev at Apple or Bust"). The irony is I'm a finance major and I really don't even like finance. I interned in sales and trading and noped outta there pretty quickly!
Sounds like an easy decision to me. Congrats on the new job and hope you like traveling for work!

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Alex Frakt » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:04 pm

Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:19 pm

Alex Frakt wrote:Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?
Well..I think its primarily because part of me wants to know what would have happened if I TOOK the gig in IB..if I would be "more successful" in banking than in consulting. I just don't want this to be the decision that retarded 21 year old me makes and regrets for the rest of my life.

Maybe suffering for just 2-3 years is worth it because that path will allow me to land a eventual "dream job" where as consulting will never put me on that path. Its a hard decision..because I don't even know what my dream job is lol.
Last edited by preciseman on Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by hq38sq43 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:20 pm

Alex Frakt wrote:Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?
+1
Harry at Bradenton

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by mlipps » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:28 pm

There is no such thing as a dream job. There is only the job that fits you best at each point in your life.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by wilked » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:43 pm

Alex Frakt wrote:Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?
This

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by TexasPenny » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:00 pm

If you go into consulting you get to travel, meet a lot of different people, and work at different client sites. At your age, the experience of seeing how other companies are structured and work/don't work can be invaluable for figuring out what you want to do later. I was a consultant straight out of college for almost 4 years and it was a fabulous time in my life. You can make so much money on the per diem it's crazy. Hopefully you can still keep your airline miles for personal use later (I traveled to England and Japan on mine). Go with the consulting.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by knowledge » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:14 pm

Are you planning on going to bschool at a later point? 2-3 years Banking or Consulting, then MBA is a classic path. Which can then be parlayed to...more banking or consulting, or something else. The travel of a consultant is great when young, but can get old quick, especially if you want to "settle" down. From a pure monetary POV, you could easily save more with the consulting job, as you may end up spending way less.

Look, it seems like from where you're starting, you'll be fine either way. Choose as you see fit.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Bacchus01 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:28 pm

At your age, always go for the higher pay.

That's the best advice I can give you. Work those hours now, and then you won't have to work them in a few years.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:34 pm

knowledge wrote:Are you planning on going to bschool at a later point? 2-3 years Banking or Consulting, then MBA is a classic path. Which can then be parlayed to...more banking or consulting, or something else. The travel of a consultant is great when young, but can get old quick, especially if you want to "settle" down. From a pure monetary POV, you could easily save more with the consulting job, as you may end up spending way less.

Look, it seems like from where you're starting, you'll be fine either way. Choose as you see fit.
Not entirely sure if I want to pursue b-school...I REALLY don't want to take the GMAT. Maybe I'll do it if it looks like I'm not on track for partner, but we shall see!

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by island » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:37 pm

wilked wrote:
Alex Frakt wrote:Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?
This
Yeah really. If I was desperate enough to take a job I expected to hate with miserable hours just for the $, I'd rather take the job I expected to like and pick up a side gig.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by mlipps » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:55 pm

preciseman wrote:
knowledge wrote:Are you planning on going to bschool at a later point? 2-3 years Banking or Consulting, then MBA is a classic path. Which can then be parlayed to...more banking or consulting, or something else. The travel of a consultant is great when young, but can get old quick, especially if you want to "settle" down. From a pure monetary POV, you could easily save more with the consulting job, as you may end up spending way less.

Look, it seems like from where you're starting, you'll be fine either way. Choose as you see fit.
Not entirely sure if I want to pursue b-school...I REALLY don't want to take the GMAT. Maybe I'll do it if it looks like I'm not on track for partner, but we shall see!
Of all the things that suck about an MBA, the GMAT is so far down on the list as to be nonexistent.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by dgdevil » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:58 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:At your age, always go for the higher pay.

That's the best advice I can give you. Work those hours now, and then you won't have to work them in a few years.
Nah, it's a trap. He'll get lifestyle creep - understandable, and expected at that age - and will then need to keep feeding the beast. Go with the fun gig, with the most interesting places and people. Surrounding yourself with intellectually stimulating people is the smartest thing you can do. The big money will come one way or another.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by TradingPlaces » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:40 pm

I think you should DEFINITELY take the consulting job. Here are my thoughts:

- you don't go into investment banking to make 30-50% more. You go into investment banking to make 10x more. A great career in investment banking goes like this: (a) 2 years as a (slave) analyst, (b) 2-3 years as a (slave) associate, (c) 3-4 years as a (mule) VP, (d) hopefully, make a Director. At this point, you have a good chance to pull $1MM-ish. If you push hard, and make MD, then you can pull $2MM-ish,

- chances are stacked against you to make it to the director level, and likewise, to the MD level. But you know what is certain: you definitely won't make it, if you don't like it. You won't even make it to VP if you don't like it,

- don't underestimate the value of actually liking what you do, and liking the people around you. At this level, foregoing that is not worth 30%,

- and lastly, you probably will get underpaid, in the long run, if you exit investment banking as an analyst, associate, or even an early-career VP. While in those years you will make strictly more money, than in equivalent years in consulting, what will happen is that your wear and tear will be much higher.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by TradingPlaces » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:44 pm

preciseman wrote:
Maybe suffering for just 2-3 years is worth it because that path will allow me to land a eventual "dream job" where as consulting will never put me on that path. Its a hard decision..because I don't even know what my dream job is lol.
Do you have a specific, realistic DREAM job? What is it? Why do you think IB will help you land it?

If you don't have a specific dream job in mind, then you are not going to be able to cash-in that option.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:46 pm

TradingPlaces wrote:I think you should DEFINITELY take the consulting job. Here are my thoughts:

- you don't go into investment banking to make 30-50% more. You go into investment banking to make 10x more. A great career in investment banking goes like this: (a) 2 years as a (slave) analyst, (b) 2-3 years as a (slave) associate, (c) 3-4 years as a (mule) VP, (d) hopefully, make a Director. At this point, you have a good chance to pull $1MM-ish. If you push hard, and make MD, then you can pull $2MM-ish,

- chances are stacked against you to make it to the director level, and likewise, to the MD level. But you know what is certain: you definitely won't make it, if you don't like it. You won't even make it to VP if you don't like it,

- don't underestimate the value of actually liking what you do, and liking the people around you. At this level, foregoing that is not worth 30%,

- and lastly, you probably will get underpaid, in the long run, if you exit investment banking as an analyst, associate, or even an early-career VP. While in those years you will make strictly more money, than in equivalent years in consulting, what will happen is that your wear and tear will be much higher.
You'll need to originate some serious deal flow to pull in 2MM in comp as a MD haha. Even then, I'd be surprised your not out in PE if your in it for the money. A MD at BX/TPG/KKR can make SO much more than any BB/Elite MM.

I feel like consulting comp is still pretty good. At the shop I signed at, its possible to make partner in 7-8 years if your a rockstar. First year partner makes 500k base NOT including all the profit sharing. Of course, I feel like once you reach that point in salary, it really doesn't matter all that much lol.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Thu Apr 09, 2015 11:47 pm

TradingPlaces wrote:
preciseman wrote:
Maybe suffering for just 2-3 years is worth it because that path will allow me to land a eventual "dream job" where as consulting will never put me on that path. Its a hard decision..because I don't even know what my dream job is lol.
Do you have a specific, realistic DREAM job? What is it? Why do you think IB will help you land it?

If you don't have a specific dream job in mind, then you are not going to be able to cash-in that option.
Lol I think I want to start up my own gig eventually. You have no idea how many times I wanted to just drop out of school to start up a truck that sells scantrons around campus. Stupid stuff like that, lol!

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by SpaceCowboy » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:30 am

TradingPlaces wrote:I think you should DEFINITELY take the consulting job. Here are my thoughts:

- you don't go into investment banking to make 30-50% more. You go into investment banking to make 10x more. A great career in investment banking goes like this: (a) 2 years as a (slave) analyst, (b) 2-3 years as a (slave) associate, (c) 3-4 years as a (mule) VP, (d) hopefully, make a Director. At this point, you have a good chance to pull $1MM-ish. If you push hard, and make MD, then you can pull $2MM-ish,

- chances are stacked against you to make it to the director level, and likewise, to the MD level. But you know what is certain: you definitely won't make it, if you don't like it. You won't even make it to VP if you don't like it,

- don't underestimate the value of actually liking what you do, and liking the people around you. At this level, foregoing that is not worth 30%,

- and lastly, you probably will get underpaid, in the long run, if you exit investment banking as an analyst, associate, or even an early-career VP. While in those years you will make strictly more money, than in equivalent years in consulting, what will happen is that your wear and tear will be much higher.
+1
It's pretty clear that you are considering IB for the wrong reasons. You don't have the drive to succeed in it and will either quit because you're miserable or get weeded out.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Bfwolf » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:34 am

I agree with the consensus: take the consulting job.

Doing I banking just to earn more money will lead you to misery.

Management consultants earn a great living and it's reasonably easy to eventually parlay it into a job at one of the companies you work. Or you can go back and get your MBA.

Doing I banking without liking finance is just crazy. 100 hours a week is just a number to you right now. When you are actually DOING it, you will think it's worse than hell. Even consultant hours are pretty brutal, but they're workable. Especially if you like it.

When I got my MBA, I considered doing consulting for a while but eventually settled on brand management, which pays significantly less. But it still paid really well, and I knew I would like it a lot more, and that I'd work fewer hours. God would I have been miserable as a consultant! I feel like you're in the same position, only it's I banking vs consulting instead of Consulting vs Brand Management.

Follow your heart on this one and stick with the consulting gig.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:30 am

Rayandron wrote:
David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day.
As I teach my students, a day laborer doesn't renege on a job. If they offer you a contract that is more than a day labor contract, then its different.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by J295 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 3:53 am

I would honor my commitment absent extraordinary circumstances, which don't exist here.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:06 am

Go for the job that you feel you'll love. Any company can dump you anytime. I worked for a company who hired a new marketing manager. He moved across the country from a stable job at a competitor and started settling in. Bought a house and moved his family. The day after his closing (a month after starting the job), the company layed him off in the first round of downsizing.

Don't go somewhere JUST for the money. I was once offered a job that I really didn't want. I mean, I REALLY didn't want it. I used my "go away" tactic of figuring out what I was worth, took that number and doubled it. They accepted my number and asked how much equity I needed (startup). Money isn't everything if you start out in a job you hate. If there were no other options, then suck it up so you can eat. Otherwise, no.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by marbat » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:26 am

The answer is "it depends."

What city is the consulting offer in? What firm is it with? There is a big difference between PwC and Deloitte vs. Oliver Wyman and LEK. What group within the consulting firm? Oliver Wyman FS or GMC? Deloitte S&O, or Technology?

What bank is your IBD offer with? What group within the bank? Industry or product? Which industry/product? What do you want to do afterwards?

Money should not be the driver for this decision.

Feel free to PM me if you want to chat - I'm a former consultant at a tier 3 firm (which is actually where I would put Deloitte and PwC) that went on to corporate strategy/development at a household name F500 company and is now heading to a HSW b-school.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Apr 10, 2015 6:40 am

preciseman wrote:
Alex Frakt wrote:Let me sum up what you have said so far. You like everything about the consulting job. You hate everything about the banking job. The pay at the latter is better, but the former is enough to live on comfortably and you've already accepted a position there.

Why are you even considering this?
Well..I think its primarily because part of me wants to know what would have happened if I TOOK the gig in IB..if I would be "more successful" in banking than in consulting. I just don't want this to be the decision that retarded 21 year old me makes and regrets for the rest of my life.

Maybe suffering for just 2-3 years is worth it because that path will allow me to land a eventual "dream job" where as consulting will never put me on that path. Its a hard decision..because I don't even know what my dream job is lol.
Yeah, sometimes a part of you wants to know what would have happened if you'd gone on a second date with someone, or if you'd ordered the salmon instead of the pasta, or if you'd learned to play guitar instead of piano. That's all well and good, but if you left a job that you gave me your word on, on the basis of this kind of dreamy-headed thinking and wondering and wishing, I'd mark your file "bad leaver" and set fire to the bridge.

You have a good thing going. This might not be your eventual career, but if you're going to transition, do it with a plan and honorable behavior.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by dolphinsaremammals » Fri Apr 10, 2015 8:00 am

Rayandron wrote: I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing).
I don't think this is a new feature. I have had verbal offers never turn into paper offers over the years.

As to the OP, I would take the consulting job. The IB job has nothing going for it except extra money, and a lot of things against it. Life is short, have a job you enjoy. Only once did I let money influence my choice of a job and it was a big mistake; I would have been much happier at the other job.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by wfrobinette » Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:39 am

preciseman wrote:
Alex Frakt wrote:If you can live comfortably on the salary from the consultant position, the schedule alone would be reason enough for me not to renege. BTW, it sounds like Goldman isn't actually paying you more (and may be paying you less) on an hourly basis.
Definitely..consulting pays me more per hour (plus I'm not adding in the perks of per diem to cover food expenses). Since I will be flying to the client Monday and back Thursday, my firm will also allow me to pick a equal distance flight to a different location to visit for a weekend (which is a HUGE perk for me).

My offer is 72k + 10k sign on + up to ~25% of base as a end of year performance bonus. Expected hours: 60-70.

Their offer is 85k + up to 100% of base as end of year performance bonus. Expected hours 85-110.
I'd take the first one . Spend 2 to 4 years gaining experience and get into a job that doesn't require 1.5 weeks of effort for a weeks pay. As a kid right out school consulting and traveling is a lot of fun. However, the drinking and debauchery that comes with the road warrior title gets old real fast.

sharpjm
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by sharpjm » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:19 am

Why would anyone take a job that required a bare minimum 85 hrs per week? :oops:

tim1999
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by tim1999 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:30 am

85-110 hours per week on salary is inhumane and should be made illegal, in my opinion.

hyla
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by hyla » Fri Apr 10, 2015 10:35 am

Take the consulting job. Doing something you like is extremely valuable. I went into seasonal outdoors jobs that have limited my income to about 20k a year after college and I don't regret it at all. 72k + bonuses is plenty.

And as others have said, you can make a killing on per diem if you are traveling for the consulting job. The lowered living expenses and extra per diem money might make the salary gap smaller than you think.

BW1985
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by BW1985 » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:01 am

Rayandron wrote:
David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day. I personally have never reneged on a job, but I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing). If the OP really wanted to do banking I would say absolutely turn down the consulting gig and go do banking. it will probably annoy the HR person who hired you and did paperwork, but honestly your consulting manager will not even remember your name in 6 months if you quit before starting. Blacklisting is highly overrated as a risk.
I've always wondered about this, let's say a company makes a written offer, you negotiate then end up accepting. You give notice to your company then a week or so later the new company backs out of the offer. I've never heard of this happening but I suppose it could. Would you have any recourse against the new company since you've already quit your current job?
"Squirrels figured out how to save eons ago. They buried acorns. Some, they dug up, for food. Others, they let to sprout, in new oak trees. We could learn from squirrels." -john94549

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:15 am

Money isn't everything. I'm on board with Alex Frakt - why are you even thinking about reneging? The money? :oops: - if you are really good at what you do, the money will come. If you take the higher paying gig, suck at it - not only will they not think a second about canning you, but your reputation will follow you elsewhere. What's more important?

+1 to the fellow who said "Your word is your bond". Integrity (character) counts in life, put that in your vest and carry it with you on your journey.
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:16 am

BW1985 wrote:
Rayandron wrote:
David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day. I personally have never reneged on a job, but I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing). If the OP really wanted to do banking I would say absolutely turn down the consulting gig and go do banking. it will probably annoy the HR person who hired you and did paperwork, but honestly your consulting manager will not even remember your name in 6 months if you quit before starting. Blacklisting is highly overrated as a risk.
I've always wondered about this, let's say a company makes a written offer, you negotiate then end up accepting. You give notice to your company then a week or so later the new company backs out of the offer. I've never heard of this happening but I suppose it could. Would you have any recourse against the new company since you've already quit your current job?
No, usually those letters state something to the effect of "while we are extending an offer, it can be revoked at any time".
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

humanities
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by humanities » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:33 am

Many young people face a hard choice between a job or career that will help them achieve financial security and a job or career that will be rewarding but will require them to live on a shoestring budget. The choice might be between investment banking, consulting, or (at least back in the day) corporate law and non-profit work, journalism, academia, or the public defender's office. This is a legitimately hard choice. "Do what you love" is often the right advice, but giving up on a stable, high income is a real sacrifice.

This isn't the decision you face. You face a decision between a job that pays very well and that you think you'll like and another job that pays very well (more in total, perhaps less per hour) and that you don't think you'll like. This is not a choice between wealth and poverty. Given that you're going to be spending well over forty hours a week at your job, why would you choose to spend most of your time doing something you don't particularly like, if you have the option of doing something that you do like and that pays very well?

If spending a few years at the job you dislike will open doors to jobs you will really love, that changes the decision. But if you don't really want a job in high finance, I'm not sure why this would be a consideration.

feh
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by feh » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:50 am

David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
It still is in some circles. I would have no objection to blacklisting in such a situation.

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Watty
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Watty » Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:53 am

BW1985 wrote:
Rayandron wrote:
David Jay wrote:In the old days we used to say "your word is your bond", but that is no longer the conventional wisdom.
Yea it isn't the old days any more. All employment is at-will, which means you can be fired at any time for any reason or for no reason, and likewise you can quit your job even before your official start day. I personally have never reneged on a job, but I have had 2 offers pulled by companies who made verbal offers and subsequently rescinded them for no apparent reason (had nothing to do with me negotiating with them as I wouldn't even attempt to negotiate until I had an offer in writing). If the OP really wanted to do banking I would say absolutely turn down the consulting gig and go do banking. it will probably annoy the HR person who hired you and did paperwork, but honestly your consulting manager will not even remember your name in 6 months if you quit before starting. Blacklisting is highly overrated as a risk.
I've always wondered about this, let's say a company makes a written offer, you negotiate then end up accepting. You give notice to your company then a week or so later the new company backs out of the offer. I've never heard of this happening but I suppose it could. Would you have any recourse against the new company since you've already quit your current job?
I have heard of it happening a number of times with graduating students that were accepting their first job out of college when there were several months between when the job offer was accepted and when they started. This was usually because of a project being cancelled or other layoffs at the company. With any large company the job offer would typically have been accompanied with paperwork from the HR department that gave them an escape clause.

One potential problem for the OP is if he has already signed some sort of non-compete clause with the original job offer. It may be hard or impossible to enforce but if that consulting company has ever worked for the other company it could be sticky. They really don't have to do a lot either since all they have to do is send a for letter to your next employer asking for information. Even if it is not enforceable the other company may not want to deal with fighting it so they could retract their job offer.

Realistically if you decide that you really want the other job second company then you would not be doing the first company a favor by staying out of a sense of obligation since you would likely always resent that and not be a very good employee for them.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Gropes & Ray » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:03 pm

85 hrs/week for $85k? I thought being a lawyer sucked, but I started at more than that with many fewer hours at a much smaller firm. There is no way I would work 85 hrs/week for that salary. Bonuses are never what they say they will be.

Aside from the fact that the consulting job sounds like a much better job, there is no reason you can't withdraw your acceptance of the job. Trust me, they will withdraw the offer if their company takes a big hit before your start day.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by Userdc » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:16 pm

preciseman wrote:You'll need to originate some serious deal flow to pull in 2MM in comp as a MD haha. Even then, I'd be surprised your not out in PE if your in it for the money. A MD at BX/TPG/KKR can make SO much more than any BB/Elite MM.

I feel like consulting comp is still pretty good. At the shop I signed at, its possible to make partner in 7-8 years if your a rockstar. First year partner makes 500k base NOT including all the profit sharing. Of course, I feel like once you reach that point in salary, it really doesn't matter all that much lol.
Be careful of making generalizations based on what you've heard from others in your peer group. First year analysts in the banking world often have bizarre and misguided perceptions of comp and the "right" desk to work and "exit opps" and how to climb the ladder.

Without getting into the specifics (or just see Trading Places post), the upside potential in I-banking is significantly higher than in consulting. You know yourself the best - do you want to swing for the fences or not? The attrition rate is very high, and that's mosty in the first couple years - you'll find out very quickly if you find the long hours draining and de-motivating, or on the flip side, you'll marvel at how quickly you are learning by drinking through a firehouse and you'll surprise yourself at how much you can accomplish.

Neither path suits everyone and both are fine ways to start a career.

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calmaniac
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by calmaniac » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:18 pm

Bacchus01 wrote:At your age, always go for the higher pay.

That's the best advice I can give you. Work those hours now, and then you won't have to work them in a few years.
-1

I don't shun hard work (I did my medical training in the 80's before they limited work hours), but the "always go for the higher pay" so you won't have to work so long at your sucky high-powered job when you are a burnt out 50 year old, does not appeal to me. One of the greatest things about having a profession in demand is that you can make choices, such as those you are proposing, and in 30 years you will be in good shape financially either way.

If you are drawn to IB for the experience, great, go for it. But if it is just for the money and prestige, and you hate the hours and stress, you will burn out.

sawhorse
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by sawhorse » Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:43 pm

Take the first job. Do not underestimate the misery of a job you dislike, no matter the pay. There are jobs I know of that you couldn't pay me any amount to take.

Consulting jobs can give you exposure to a diverse range of businesses. Even if they aren't diverse industry-wise, you'll still see different company practices and cultures. Some of those companies may be investment banks! You also have the potential of making connections.

Also consider that if you renege on this job, you will probably never get the chance to work there again, but if you politely turn down the investment banking job, it won't shut you out of a potential future job there.

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preciseman
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by preciseman » Tue May 19, 2015 1:35 am

I thought I should probably update this thread..ended up sticking with consulting and emailed the IB recruiter that I had already signed a offer but I would love to keep in touch for future opportunities. I'm happy :happy .

econinmn
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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by econinmn » Tue May 19, 2015 8:37 am

This is somewhat OT, but I just read the thread. This is a heads up for someone young and just entering the workplace. Using the word 'retarded' is seen as significantly offensive. All it takes is using that word in front of a client with a family member with a disability and you may be off a project. I know you didn't mean anything offensive in the way you used it, but it is a trigger word for an enormous group of people who have someone with an intellectual disability in their family. Please put it in your list of unacceptable word choices.

I do, however, wish you the best of luck and try to get out and see some of the places you are sent for work. Take advantage of the travel while you are young and unattached.

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Re: Should I renege [on a] job offer?

Post by bayview » Tue May 19, 2015 2:06 pm

Congrats on what seems like a smart decision. Before I saw the date on this thread, I thought these two things:
preciseman wrote:...To be honest, the only reason I interviewed for IB was because I wanted a offer so I could negotiate a higher salary in consulting (figured it was worth a shot)...
I think you answered your own question in your first post.
I really don't want to pursue a career in high finance...doing valuation/merger models for 16 hours a day 6 days a week does NOT sound like fun. Plus - I'd rather not want to have to deal with the more toxic environment that this bank fosters..
Yup. :sharebeer
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri

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