Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested!
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Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested!
Happy Friday Bogleheads,
Something thats been on my mind to post - What are the true economics and experiences of climbing the ladder?
Pros of career advancement:
1. More money
2. More prestige
3. Perhaps better marketability, career path
4. Increased Job satisfaction?
Cons of career advancement:
1. Worse work/life balance --> Less time spent at home, More weekend work etc
2. More stress/pressure --> decreased Job satisfaction
3. More business travel expected
4. Less tenure? I see a lot of VP's not last very long for various reasons incl burn out.
Pros/Cons = some coefficient that we all try to maximize for our overall life experience benefit.
Would love to hear experiences (good and bad) from those who have climbed the ladder or decided to take a pause.
I'm especially interested in knowing thoughts of mid-management (Directors & VP's) on what has worked well in their careers (e.g. promotion was worth it) vs. steps made which in retrospect you may have taken a different path (e.g. asked to take a position in the company which you knew may not be an ideal fit & then regret the move).
I hope you understand the general theme of this thread. If there are other books/reference links which honestly discuss this topic - would love it if you can share these.
Something thats been on my mind to post - What are the true economics and experiences of climbing the ladder?
Pros of career advancement:
1. More money
2. More prestige
3. Perhaps better marketability, career path
4. Increased Job satisfaction?
Cons of career advancement:
1. Worse work/life balance --> Less time spent at home, More weekend work etc
2. More stress/pressure --> decreased Job satisfaction
3. More business travel expected
4. Less tenure? I see a lot of VP's not last very long for various reasons incl burn out.
Pros/Cons = some coefficient that we all try to maximize for our overall life experience benefit.
Would love to hear experiences (good and bad) from those who have climbed the ladder or decided to take a pause.
I'm especially interested in knowing thoughts of mid-management (Directors & VP's) on what has worked well in their careers (e.g. promotion was worth it) vs. steps made which in retrospect you may have taken a different path (e.g. asked to take a position in the company which you knew may not be an ideal fit & then regret the move).
I hope you understand the general theme of this thread. If there are other books/reference links which honestly discuss this topic - would love it if you can share these.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
The higher you go in an organization the more likely you will work directly with or for jerks and sociopaths. It adds to the stress but it does develop your interpersonal skills.
In my case, there was a lot of relocation.
In my case, there was a lot of relocation.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Thanks jebmke. I was thinking along the same lines - this may be one of the main factors for high turnover at the VP level at my company. The jerks/sociopaths may not be your direct manager but the peers and other company leaders that you have to work withjebmke wrote:The higher you go in an organization the more likely you will work directly with or for jerks and sociopaths. It adds to the stress but it does develop your interpersonal skills.
In my case, there was a lot of relocation.
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
That should mean that if you want you can also be a jerk or a sociopath.jebmke wrote:The higher you go in an organization the more likely you will work directly with or for jerks and sociopaths. It adds to the stress but it does develop your interpersonal skills.
In my case, there was a lot of relocation.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Truly.Rodc wrote:That should mean that if you want you can also be a jerk or a sociopath.jebmke wrote:The higher you go in an organization the more likely you will work directly with or for jerks and sociopaths. It adds to the stress but it does develop your interpersonal skills.
In my case, there was a lot of relocation.
In my company, once you reached a certain level, everyone was evaluated by a shrink. He tested you on the usual things like being able to deal with ambiguity and complexity. But I was surprised when he ran a series to measure empathy. He wouldn't tell you how you scored but when I asked him about the testing he did say that they target a broad middle range. Below a certain level (low empathy) and you are prone to be destructive, above a certain level you likely can't get things done.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Wannaretireearly wrote:Happy Friday Bogleheads,
Something thats been on my mind to post - What are the true economics and experiences of climbing the ladder?
Pros of career advancement:
1. More money
2. More prestige
3. Perhaps better marketability, career path
4. Increased Job satisfaction?
Cons of career advancement:
1. Worse work/life balance --> Less time spent at home, More weekend work etc
2. More stress/pressure --> decreased Job satisfaction
3. More business travel expected
4. Less tenure? I see a lot of VP's not last very long for various reasons incl burn out.
Pros/Cons = some coefficient that we all try to maximize for our overall life experience benefit.
Would love to hear experiences (good and bad) from those who have climbed the ladder or decided to take a pause.
I'm especially interested in knowing thoughts of mid-management (Directors & VP's) on what has worked well in their careers (e.g. promotion was worth it) vs. steps made which in retrospect you may have taken a different path (e.g. asked to take a position in the company which you knew may not be an ideal fit & then regret the move).
I hope you understand the general theme of this thread. If there are other books/reference links which honestly discuss this topic - would love it if you can share these.
What happened to the entire thought train of implementing your guidance and ideas to your staff?
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- Posts: 4881
- Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:39 pm
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I'm assuming you mean this as a pro in this context. i.e. imparting wisdom & mentoring being something to enjoy. Which I domidareff wrote:
What happened to the entire thought train of implementing your guidance and ideas to your staff?
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Mo money, Mo problems. Totally true in the corporate world.
I climbed the ladder for many years until I hit director level. I never stabbed anyone in the back or took out a competitor. I've truly played it "win-win". I feel good about that, but it did require me to change jobs more often then I would have liked.
I enjoyed most of it, but the responsibilities and stress absolutely increased with every promotion.
I pulled the rip cord a couple years ago, and am back into pure engineering. That was a brutal change at first, but now I'm loving it. I've been training my successor for over a year now, and I have to admit, I get some pleasure when he says "Jeez, I never knew management could be so hard!"
I used to need to be available almost 24/7/365. Now, not so much. Life outside work is much better.
Of course, if I hadn't went through all that stuff, I wouldn't have had the income and savings that now allow me to leave it all behind so soon. I plan to retire in a few years at 53-55. Or what evs....
I didn't use my extra income to by status or toys (well, not MOST of it ) I used it to buy flexibility and freedom by saving and investing.
I climbed the ladder for many years until I hit director level. I never stabbed anyone in the back or took out a competitor. I've truly played it "win-win". I feel good about that, but it did require me to change jobs more often then I would have liked.
I enjoyed most of it, but the responsibilities and stress absolutely increased with every promotion.
I pulled the rip cord a couple years ago, and am back into pure engineering. That was a brutal change at first, but now I'm loving it. I've been training my successor for over a year now, and I have to admit, I get some pleasure when he says "Jeez, I never knew management could be so hard!"
I used to need to be available almost 24/7/365. Now, not so much. Life outside work is much better.
Of course, if I hadn't went through all that stuff, I wouldn't have had the income and savings that now allow me to leave it all behind so soon. I plan to retire in a few years at 53-55. Or what evs....
I didn't use my extra income to by status or toys (well, not MOST of it ) I used it to buy flexibility and freedom by saving and investing.
Time is what we want most, but what we use worst. William Penn
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I climbed the ladder at one place of employment--a small shop with about 10 employees--for 24 years. I started as a clerk and am now running the joint.
Pros: 1, 2 and 4
Cons: None
And now I'm retiring.
Yes, I've had to be available 24/7, but I've loved my work, I delegated and put systems in place so that the business runs itself without a lot of direct input from me, and I have an experienced staff I can rely on.
I know this is unusual. I consider myself very lucky.
Pros: 1, 2 and 4
Cons: None
And now I'm retiring.
Yes, I've had to be available 24/7, but I've loved my work, I delegated and put systems in place so that the business runs itself without a lot of direct input from me, and I have an experienced staff I can rely on.
I know this is unusual. I consider myself very lucky.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Thanks! Appreciate the responses and would like to hear from more
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I just couldn't sit indoors 60-80 hours a week to study to succeed. After flunking out of college as a Chemical Engineering major, and a mandatory stint in the Army, I graduated from a two year tech school, then went full time at my part time job at a package delivery company.
Thirty years later, at age 55.5, I retired from there at the same level, but with a pension of about half pay, retiree health insurance, a paid off residence in a low Cost of Living (LCOL) state, and 95% of a seven figure portfolio. At work, every boss (and there was a new one almost every year) wanted more, so I Lived Below My Means (LBMM) for those 30 years, knowing that with any serious mistake, I might be gone. I should thank them for their help on my retirement savings. I did drive the same simple and reliable vehicle to work for twenty years, but I chose to live near work both times when I moved to a new city.
I agree with Taylor's "There are many roads to Dublin." Much depends on how you perceive your version of Dublin. Living Below Your Means pays twice. Once when it produces savings to invest, then again when you need 25 multiples of only that reduced spending for retirement. Millions of people live happy lives on 80% of your income, so just live like they do, and save the other portion. One study showed that across the whole spectrum of incomes, most thought that 10% more money would make their lives much better, so recognize that you will always want more than you have.
I am grateful for the physical activity of my blue collar job. Most of my retired friends who worked indoors now have bad knees, but I'm still backpacking at 65 (with very light weight, not inexpensive gear). My age 81 neighbor who still works as a part-time mailman, walked with a mailbag early in his career, and he too has good health and mobility. Your career can do more for you, and more to you, than just furnishing a paycheck.
Thirty years later, at age 55.5, I retired from there at the same level, but with a pension of about half pay, retiree health insurance, a paid off residence in a low Cost of Living (LCOL) state, and 95% of a seven figure portfolio. At work, every boss (and there was a new one almost every year) wanted more, so I Lived Below My Means (LBMM) for those 30 years, knowing that with any serious mistake, I might be gone. I should thank them for their help on my retirement savings. I did drive the same simple and reliable vehicle to work for twenty years, but I chose to live near work both times when I moved to a new city.
I agree with Taylor's "There are many roads to Dublin." Much depends on how you perceive your version of Dublin. Living Below Your Means pays twice. Once when it produces savings to invest, then again when you need 25 multiples of only that reduced spending for retirement. Millions of people live happy lives on 80% of your income, so just live like they do, and save the other portion. One study showed that across the whole spectrum of incomes, most thought that 10% more money would make their lives much better, so recognize that you will always want more than you have.
I am grateful for the physical activity of my blue collar job. Most of my retired friends who worked indoors now have bad knees, but I'm still backpacking at 65 (with very light weight, not inexpensive gear). My age 81 neighbor who still works as a part-time mailman, walked with a mailbag early in his career, and he too has good health and mobility. Your career can do more for you, and more to you, than just furnishing a paycheck.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Whenever I read comments about how management is filled with sociopaths and management doesn't care about anyone but themselves, I'm surprised. It just hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I specifically look for corporate culture as a factor in deciding where to work. It's easier to have a good culture if the people in charge are good people. I'm not in senior management at my mega corp employer, but I'm high enough up that I interact quite a bit with those who are, and I think highly of them as people.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
+1Louis Winthorpe III wrote:Whenever I read comments about how management is filled with sociopaths and management doesn't care about anyone but themselves, I'm surprised. It just hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I specifically look for corporate culture as a factor in deciding where to work. It's easier to have a good culture if the people in charge are good people.
I can't say that all of my experiences have been perfect but I often find that those who are most critical of senior management have limited leadership experience and often lack the skillset. Not saying it is sour grapes, just not something people know about unless they've done it.
As far as the economics, you can't beat it. In most of the companies I've worked for, analysts make twice what entry makes, senior analysts 50% more, managers double that, directors more than double that, VPs .... Definitely an exponential progression. So sliding up the chain can set you up for life.
As for the people, most senior leadership I've worked with as peers and bosses are dedicated, hardworking, and love their jobs. They put in more hours than everyone because that is how they are wired and because they want the business to succeed. Not all of them are ideally equipped to do that (peter principle is in effect) but those that don't have the skillset don't last or are working hard to learn what they need and improve. Part of what defines a successful organization is its ability to recognize, promote and retain good talent. Your mileage may vary. If your situation sucks, move on. Life is too short to work with jerks.
As much as I love being a director, at some point the hours are going to get me. 12 hour days are common, tack on that a commute into a major metro area, after hours consultations with international offices and it makes for a long week. The pressure is high but I thrive in challenging situations.
In true BH / money mustache form, my adaptation has been to keep my standard of living nearly flat and bank most of my raises. Only about 35-40% of my colleagues are doing the same. I'm looking forward to eventually downsizing my job, maybe consulting a bit, teaching, or just working in the garden and going sailing. Have a ten year plan -- we'll see if it works. Putting up with the challenges means that I'm banking enough to have a chance to make that dream a reality. Sadly, I see many people with similar aspirations but no realistic plan or means to achieve them.
In my case, being open to relocation and new opportunities has been a critical success factor. If you aren't willing to change big things, you can't seize the big opportunities.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I was willing to move a lot (over a course of 13 years), and it made a huge difference. Looking back we bought several houses that in hindsight was not the right thing to do, but the huge steps in income more than made up for it.In my case, being open to relocation and new opportunities has been a critical success factor. If you aren't willing to change big things, you can't seize the big opportunities.
At my Megacorp there are remarkable marketplace pressures (I work in a high-tech field) that I've seen a lot of 'up and out' kind of pressure on senior management, where the tenure tends to be only a few years in a given position; they either get re-assigned (many times involving relocation for their own development goals) or shown the door (sometimes without any good external rationale other than senior-level politics). So at that level there's a selection pressure for those willing to relocate (many times abroad to developing markets; even developed markets will have huge personal impact on family members) as well as people astute to the political environment.
And then there's the risk of being 'stranded' abroad; a friend relocated to a developing country, and in the meantime (over 2 years) his main 'sponsor' (if I could put it that way) was let go, and the parent organization (a $3B company) acquired a key distributor, and the parent organization itself was acquired. The key distributor got the friend's job, and he was shown the door. Of course the majority of times the 'post abroad' works out, these folks become repatriated with a big promotion etc., but other times it doesn't.
Nonetheless the experiences of my friend served him well - his tenure at Megacorp for some 10 years (a market leader) made him an attractive candidate for a small company close to his home-town, so there's that.
For me I had a conversation just yesterday about what I could do to get a big bump (>15%) in pay without relocating. Of course it involved getting in touch with people I know very well at a key competitor and starting some conversations, which I may consider. (I'm really happy with what I'm doing now, FWIW, just would like more income, naturally...)
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I'm in my mid thirties and I've been in leadership positions for nearly 14 years now. There have been promotions along the way which brought on more leadership opportunities and with that came more pressure. I realized early on if I wanted to relieve myself of some of that pressure I really needed to ramp up my savings so I could reach financial independence sooner. Over the last couple of years I haven't felt the pressure I felt earlier in my career despite having a lot more responsibility now. I don't feel as pressured because of a decision I made in my twenties. That decision was to save aggressively so I didn't feel compelled to stay in a stressful job. It's worked out well so far. Yeah my job is stressful but I'm able to manage that stress because I know I have a contingency plan if things don't work out.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I tend to agree with Louis. I spent 44 years in IT at 4 different employers, the last 30 years in executive management. I recall one totally immoral manager and one huge jerk who was hired to purge marginal performers from management (I was not one of his victims). Otherwise, management tended to be decent people with varying degrees of competency and leadership ranging from very good to fair. I found that if you can consistently produce good results, you can cope with even the jerks even though it may not be a pleasurable experience.Louis Winthorpe III wrote:Whenever I read comments about how management is filled with sociopaths and management doesn't care about anyone but themselves, I'm surprised. It just hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I specifically look for corporate culture as a factor in deciding where to work. It's easier to have a good culture if the people in charge are good people. I'm not in senior management at my mega corp employer, but I'm high enough up that I interact quite a bit with those who are, and I think highly of them as people.
Jebmke wrote:
"In my company, once you reached a certain level, everyone was evaluated by a shrink. He tested you on the usual things like being able to deal with ambiguity and complexity. But I was surprised when he ran a series to measure empathy. He wouldn't tell you how you scored but when I asked him about the testing he did say that they target a broad middle range. Below a certain level (low empathy) and you are prone to be destructive, above a certain level you likely can't get things done."
Senior management, including myself, were evaluated by a shrink at a consulting company I worked for. He asked some really odd questions and reviewed results with each person individually. My assumption was that the CEO wanted to know how each of us ticked as he tended to play mind games. I do not think he was terribly concerned about our empathy level.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
My experience is limited to one organization, and it is not a huge for profit organization, so I wondered if my experience was particularly relevant, but I would say that my experience with senior management has generally been very good. I have friends at the Director level in various companies and they are fine people. Of course that is a group I have chosen so not representative.Louis Winthorpe III wrote:Whenever I read comments about how management is filled with sociopaths and management doesn't care about anyone but themselves, I'm surprised. It just hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I specifically look for corporate culture as a factor in deciding where to work. It's easier to have a good culture if the people in charge are good people. I'm not in senior management at my mega corp employer, but I'm high enough up that I interact quite a bit with those who are, and I think highly of them as people.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Wannaretireearly wrote:I'm assuming you mean this as a pro in this context. i.e. imparting wisdom & mentoring being something to enjoy. Which I domidareff wrote:
What happened to the entire thought train of implementing your guidance and ideas to your staff?
Absolutely, the best memories of my careers .. one in the car rental industry and the second in municipal fleet management, are the times when you are able to do good things for others. From mentoring subordinates and watching them be able to advance to helping sister agencies in municipal. Other than that the expectations of levels above sometimes do not mirror reality while it still being your responsibility to make it happen.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Earlier in my career, I gave some serious thought to next steps.
I didn't want to relocate and I didn't want to travel more than a couple times a year as I'm involved in a lot of non-work activities that are important to me. I didn't want to be in a high-stress position, need to answer email at 10PM, or work 12 hour days routinely. What suited me is a full 9 or 10 hour day of working hard, then after work I get to do what I enjoy and leave work behind. That balance is essential for my happiness, more than a higher income would be. And like the OP mentioned, when you get higher and higher, your stay is often short, the stress is high and to find a comparable position you almost have to be open to relocation and travel. So for me, that meant intentionally plateauing at the level where I was. The challenge there was to still be recognized as a top performer and not as an example of the Peter Principle, given many working years left ahead of me. I decided to invest in making others more successful in the roles they had and this turned out to be a fortunate decision (and I acknowledge it was guided from above).
Other managers loved me. Since I was in a role that supported multiple projects, I could see where there were problems and offered to help in whatever ways I could to support those managers. Did they have a new hire? I'd offer to spend a day helping them understand what the company did, how our workflow operates, and I had the experience to explain things in terms that were relevant to that person's role. I designed and taught a training session to educate people in a certain job how to interface with our group more effectively, and other managers then started asking why other groups didn't do the same thing. People above me would come and go but before too long the newer ones would see me as a valuable resource to work with.
The biggest challenge was a culture change when new ownership steadily brought in people from HQ. They are insular - they collaborate with their own, but not much with the "locals". The way our group operated was acknowledged as a global center of excellence within the company for what we do, but when new policies and procedures were established, we had no input nor were we consulted in advance. It became harder to forge those relationships and although my strategy hasn't been as effective as before, it hasn't hurt.
I surely have foregone greater income by not consciously seeking more advancement, but I achieved my goal - longevity, little travel, low stress and being prepared for the possibility of joblessness by saving aggressively.
I didn't want to relocate and I didn't want to travel more than a couple times a year as I'm involved in a lot of non-work activities that are important to me. I didn't want to be in a high-stress position, need to answer email at 10PM, or work 12 hour days routinely. What suited me is a full 9 or 10 hour day of working hard, then after work I get to do what I enjoy and leave work behind. That balance is essential for my happiness, more than a higher income would be. And like the OP mentioned, when you get higher and higher, your stay is often short, the stress is high and to find a comparable position you almost have to be open to relocation and travel. So for me, that meant intentionally plateauing at the level where I was. The challenge there was to still be recognized as a top performer and not as an example of the Peter Principle, given many working years left ahead of me. I decided to invest in making others more successful in the roles they had and this turned out to be a fortunate decision (and I acknowledge it was guided from above).
Other managers loved me. Since I was in a role that supported multiple projects, I could see where there were problems and offered to help in whatever ways I could to support those managers. Did they have a new hire? I'd offer to spend a day helping them understand what the company did, how our workflow operates, and I had the experience to explain things in terms that were relevant to that person's role. I designed and taught a training session to educate people in a certain job how to interface with our group more effectively, and other managers then started asking why other groups didn't do the same thing. People above me would come and go but before too long the newer ones would see me as a valuable resource to work with.
The biggest challenge was a culture change when new ownership steadily brought in people from HQ. They are insular - they collaborate with their own, but not much with the "locals". The way our group operated was acknowledged as a global center of excellence within the company for what we do, but when new policies and procedures were established, we had no input nor were we consulted in advance. It became harder to forge those relationships and although my strategy hasn't been as effective as before, it hasn't hurt.
I surely have foregone greater income by not consciously seeking more advancement, but I achieved my goal - longevity, little travel, low stress and being prepared for the possibility of joblessness by saving aggressively.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Mine has as well, but I selected my organization for its ethics. I like high trust environments, and I prize ethics as a corporate value. That said, at most healthy organizations, villany is only rewarded if it produces results, and higher trust organizations get more done with less stress. There are scumbags everywhere, but they are not as successful as limited understanding of the prisoners dilemma might make you think.Rodc wrote:My experience is limited to one organization, and it is not a huge for profit organization, so I wondered if my experience was particularly relevant, but I would say that my experience with senior management has generally been very good. I have friends at the Director level in various companies and they are fine people. Of course that is a group I have chosen so not representative.Louis Winthorpe III wrote:Whenever I read comments about how management is filled with sociopaths and management doesn't care about anyone but themselves, I'm surprised. It just hasn't been my experience at all. Maybe I've just been lucky, but I specifically look for corporate culture as a factor in deciding where to work. It's easier to have a good culture if the people in charge are good people. I'm not in senior management at my mega corp employer, but I'm high enough up that I interact quite a bit with those who are, and I think highly of them as people.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Gomerblog article on why a doctor became a hospital administrator, and the second why a PGA golfer became a hospital administrator.
http://www.gomerblog.com/2014/10/hospit ... nistrator/
http://www.gomerblog.com/2015/02/pga-pr ... nistrator/
http://www.gomerblog.com/2014/10/hospit ... nistrator/
http://www.gomerblog.com/2015/02/pga-pr ... nistrator/
I'll gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I was very lucky in my career and reached a C-suite job at a $100billion market cap co. It was a wonderful experience in most regards. The work was challenging, complex, and very interesting. My associates at the senior level were very impressive, intelligent and supportive. Financially it was beyond any of my expectations.
It really depends on you,ie do you have the skill, drive, intelligence, work ethic, to succeed? You will still need a fair bit of luck. If you do succeed it will be certainly worth it. Not really that much extra effort but a lot more reward.
It really depends on you,ie do you have the skill, drive, intelligence, work ethic, to succeed? You will still need a fair bit of luck. If you do succeed it will be certainly worth it. Not really that much extra effort but a lot more reward.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I have worked for my current employer about 20 years. It is a smaller manufacturing company with 400 employees. Hired as a department director, promoted to director of a larger department and now a VP with directors and managers reporting to me.
To me, the big advantage of moving up is having more control over what you work on and setting the agenda. I find this generally results in less stress and more job satisfaction.
I have always lived below my means. The extra money is nice, but for me it is not the main thing. Also, respect is something you earn and it doesn't automatically come with moving up. You can be well respected at any level is you are good at what you do.
To me, the big advantage of moving up is having more control over what you work on and setting the agenda. I find this generally results in less stress and more job satisfaction.
I have always lived below my means. The extra money is nice, but for me it is not the main thing. Also, respect is something you earn and it doesn't automatically come with moving up. You can be well respected at any level is you are good at what you do.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I'd say just keep your eyes up and evaluate your happiness at every rung. If needed, it's always easier to descend by a single level than by multiple.
I climbed to a director level and just recently bypassed a VP opening to descend the ladder instead. I should have taken my own advice and descended sooner.
I climbed to a director level and just recently bypassed a VP opening to descend the ladder instead. I should have taken my own advice and descended sooner.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
One stressor that goes way up is playing corporate politics. The politics go up exponentially. Want that promotion? Or want that group of 50 people to move in to your organization during a reorg? It's going to do very little with your ability and worthiness and A LOT to do with who you are connected and in good favor.Wannaretireearly wrote:Happy Friday Bogleheads,
Something thats been on my mind to post - What are the true economics and experiences of climbing the ladder?
Pros of career advancement:
1. More money
2. More prestige
3. Perhaps better marketability, career path
4. Increased Job satisfaction?
Cons of career advancement:
1. Worse work/life balance --> Less time spent at home, More weekend work etc
2. More stress/pressure --> decreased Job satisfaction
3. More business travel expected
4. Less tenure? I see a lot of VP's not last very long for various reasons incl burn out.
Pros/Cons = some coefficient that we all try to maximize for our overall life experience benefit.
Would love to hear experiences (good and bad) from those who have climbed the ladder or decided to take a pause.
I'm especially interested in knowing thoughts of mid-management (Directors & VP's) on what has worked well in their careers (e.g. promotion was worth it) vs. steps made which in retrospect you may have taken a different path (e.g. asked to take a position in the company which you knew may not be an ideal fit & then regret the move).
I hope you understand the general theme of this thread. If there are other books/reference links which honestly discuss this topic - would love it if you can share these.
Leonard |
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Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? |
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If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
I always valued other aspects of my work much more than moving up the ladder or a better title. That doesn't mean there isn't room for advancement though. You should be able to get a very good idea of what the jobs one or two rungs above you involve, how much they may change your work/life balance, and whether the challenges of those roles will be stimulating for you. Keep going as long as those still look like positive opportunities for you.
The other factor you need to consider is that you may find you are getting stale if you stay in the same job for too long. I didn't realize this when I was young, but as I've grown older I realize I need a change of some sort every 5 years or so, otherwise I tend to fall in a rut out of boredom. Doesn't need to be a move up, but I need to be doing something different. Everyone is different though. Many years ago I had a design engineer work for me who was a few years away from retirement, and he had spent his entire career designing electronics. It's what he loved, he was happy with the money, and it left him lots of time for his passion which was fishing. He made everything he fished with except reels and fishing line. Fishing rods, lures, flies, he did it all, and was fishing just about every weekend and every vacation. He was also the best hardware designer I ever had work for me.
I've been at the director level for the past 16 years or so, and it's been a deliberate decision based on looking up a level or two and seeing a lot more travel, more time spent dealing with issues that would not be stimulating for me, and probable relocation. The change I need has come from a couple lateral moves, and I've also been lucky enough that the organization has evolved which has led to the need for me to learn some new products and businesses even though I was continuing in the same role. Each year at performance appraisal time I have pretty much the same conversation with my boss: He says "Great job" and asks what I want to do in the future. I tell him I'm in my ideal job and want to keep on doing what I've been doing. He's OK with that, and it doesn't hurt that they pay me well. Seems to me that companies should recognize when they have that kind of win-win situation.
The other factor you need to consider is that you may find you are getting stale if you stay in the same job for too long. I didn't realize this when I was young, but as I've grown older I realize I need a change of some sort every 5 years or so, otherwise I tend to fall in a rut out of boredom. Doesn't need to be a move up, but I need to be doing something different. Everyone is different though. Many years ago I had a design engineer work for me who was a few years away from retirement, and he had spent his entire career designing electronics. It's what he loved, he was happy with the money, and it left him lots of time for his passion which was fishing. He made everything he fished with except reels and fishing line. Fishing rods, lures, flies, he did it all, and was fishing just about every weekend and every vacation. He was also the best hardware designer I ever had work for me.
I've been at the director level for the past 16 years or so, and it's been a deliberate decision based on looking up a level or two and seeing a lot more travel, more time spent dealing with issues that would not be stimulating for me, and probable relocation. The change I need has come from a couple lateral moves, and I've also been lucky enough that the organization has evolved which has led to the need for me to learn some new products and businesses even though I was continuing in the same role. Each year at performance appraisal time I have pretty much the same conversation with my boss: He says "Great job" and asks what I want to do in the future. I tell him I'm in my ideal job and want to keep on doing what I've been doing. He's OK with that, and it doesn't hurt that they pay me well. Seems to me that companies should recognize when they have that kind of win-win situation.
Dave
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Thanks Dfrank and all. Very good and thoughtful points.DFrank wrote:I always valued other aspects of my work much more than moving up the ladder or a better title. That doesn't mean there isn't room for advancement though. You should be able to get a very good idea of what the jobs one or two rungs above you involve, how much they may change your work/life balance, and whether the challenges of those roles will be stimulating for you. Keep going as long as those still look like positive opportunities for you.
The other factor you need to consider is that you may find you are getting stale if you stay in the same job for too long. I didn't realize this when I was young, but as I've grown older I realize I need a change of some sort every 5 years or so, otherwise I tend to fall in a rut out of boredom. Doesn't need to be a move up, but I need to be doing something different. Everyone is different though. Many years ago I had a design engineer work for me who was a few years away from retirement, and he had spent his entire career designing electronics. It's what he loved, he was happy with the money, and it left him lots of time for his passion which was fishing. He made everything he fished with except reels and fishing line. Fishing rods, lures, flies, he did it all, and was fishing just about every weekend and every vacation. He was also the best hardware designer I ever had work for me.
I've been at the director level for the past 16 years or so, and it's been a deliberate decision based on looking up a level or two and seeing a lot more travel, more time spent dealing with issues that would not be stimulating for me, and probable relocation. The change I need has come from a couple lateral moves, and I've also been lucky enough that the organization has evolved which has led to the need for me to learn some new products and businesses even though I was continuing in the same role. Each year at performance appraisal time I have pretty much the same conversation with my boss: He says "Great job" and asks what I want to do in the future. I tell him I'm in my ideal job and want to keep on doing what I've been doing. He's OK with that, and it doesn't hurt that they pay me well. Seems to me that companies should recognize when they have that kind of win-win situation.
I've made a lateral move at my current company which then directly resulted in a promotion (still to a IC position).
I agree, I also need some sort of change every ~5years max. I love working for my current manager which keeps me interested. I've been put forward for Leadership/management training which tells me I'm fairly well regarded. Anecdote: Been part of some great leadership programs/seminars recently lead by the "CIO Executive Council".
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Every career path is a little different. For instance, in my career and in my group, climbing the ladder means more responsibility but not more pay and not necessarily more power. I've certainly regretted being the medical director and department chair and similar positions, but the fact was I was the most qualified and someone had to do it. I'd rather do it than see it not done at all.Wannaretireearly wrote:
Would love to hear experiences (good and bad) from those who have climbed the ladder or decided to take a pause.
I'm especially interested in knowing thoughts of mid-management (Directors & VP's) on what has worked well in their careers (e.g. promotion was worth it) vs. steps made which in retrospect you may have taken a different path (e.g. asked to take a position in the company which you knew may not be an ideal fit & then regret the move).
Promotions to positions of greater responsibility should come with compensation of some type. Whether that compensation is worth the hassle to you depends on your marginal utility of extra income/extra power/extra prestige/extra job security etc.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
It really depends on what YOUR goals are, and what makes YOU happy.
For example, my father retired a few years ago from IBM as a brand CFO. He was as high as you can go in management without being considered a junior level executive. Over the years, he has been offered several executive positions just within IBM. He graduated summa cum laude with a BS in financial economics from UPenn and did extremely well at Wharton. In fact, he was offered a snazzy job working on Wall Street for Salomon Brothers right out of business school.
He has turned down all of these opportunities because despite the fact that he is ambitious, he is equally interested in focusing on what he considers to be the important things in life. He is 59, now works as a math teacher (always wanted to do that after retiring), and given his lifestyle, has way too much money (at least in his retirement accounts).
What is right for YOU?
For example, my father retired a few years ago from IBM as a brand CFO. He was as high as you can go in management without being considered a junior level executive. Over the years, he has been offered several executive positions just within IBM. He graduated summa cum laude with a BS in financial economics from UPenn and did extremely well at Wharton. In fact, he was offered a snazzy job working on Wall Street for Salomon Brothers right out of business school.
He has turned down all of these opportunities because despite the fact that he is ambitious, he is equally interested in focusing on what he considers to be the important things in life. He is 59, now works as a math teacher (always wanted to do that after retiring), and given his lifestyle, has way too much money (at least in his retirement accounts).
What is right for YOU?
Last edited by dc81584 on Sat Apr 18, 2015 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Economics of climbing the ladder - experiences requested
Very fair. As my other post shows I'm focused on FIRE, health and spending time with family.dc81584 wrote:It really depends on what YOUR goals are, and what makes YOU happy.
For example, my father retired a few years ago from IBM as a brand CFO. He was as high as you can go in management without being considered a junior level executive. Over the years, he has been offered several executive positions just within IBM. He graduated summa cum laude with a BS in financial economics from UPENN and did extremely well at Wharton. In fact, right he was offered a snazzy job working on Wall Street for Salomon Brothers right out of business school.
He has turned down all of these opportunities because despite the fact that he is ambitious, he is equally interested in focusing on what he considers to be the important things in life. He is 59, now works as a math teacher (always wanted to do that after retiring), and given his lifestyle, has way too much money (at least in his retirement accounts).
What is right for YOU?
I'm at a point where I think regular promotions would have little effect on my FIRE number or timeline. Just too little incentive ($$$) after tax to really move the needle especially if I have to give up time at home. On the other hand I may get bored and move around or up just to make it interesting...
“At some point you are trading time you will never get back for money you will never spend.“ |
“How do you want to spend the best remaining year of your life?“