Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

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texasdiver
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Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by texasdiver »

Provocative article in Today's Slate Magazine judging from the number of comments. That backup retirement plan to work into your 70s? Maybe not gonna happen.

http://www.slate.com/articles/business/ ... table.html
livesoft
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by livesoft »

This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. She must've run out of money because her articles are starting to appear again in the various outlets. She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.

Anyways, one has to take with a huge grain of salt, if not an entire salt mine, anything that these two conjure up. Some of it is true, but much of it is hyperbole.

But this article does end on a positive note: "Baby boomers are going to retire. It’s time we admitted it."
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by nisiprius »

I started a poll, Poll: would-be semi-retirees, could you find part-time work? on the (dubious) theory that bad data is better than no data.

(Shrug) On the one hand, I got a fantastic part-time job in my early sixties, so I can't call semiretirement a myth. On the other hand, it was a direct result of personal contacts, and during a 5-1/2-month job search I completely failed to land so much a single interview for any job, part-time or full-time, the first time this has ever happened to me--so I can't say "difficulty finding a job in one's sixties" is a myth, either.

There is intergenerational rivalry on the horizon, if it's not here already.

Boomers won’t budge: U.S. jobs market experiencing massive congestion]
Many older workers are holding on to their jobs instead of retiring — and that’s causing a logjam in the labor market.... There’s been a sharp decline in labor force participation among younger workers (aged 16 to 24) and prime-age working adults (aged 25 to 54), according to the most recent Bureau of Labor Statistics figures, while older workers have been holding on to their jobs. “Coincidentally, a larger share of baby boomers, an exceptionally large cohort, continues to participate at historically high levels.
It is important to remember that the reason the Social Security retirement age was set at 65 was that one of the goals was to get older workers out of the workforce to make more jobs for younger works. Call it a national "package." (It was a response to public support for the Townsend Plan, which would have a provided a more generous benefit in exchange for a rigid requirement that recipients do no work at all, AND that they spend every penny of their benefit within 30 days of receiving it).
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Rob5TCP »

There are two sides to this. A fair number (about 30%) of my clients are on legacy software with years of heavy modification.
I can receive SS in about 5 years, but will continue working because I choose to. The number of people capable of supporting this
legacy program has dropped dramatically faster than the # of clients on them.

While only 30% of my clients, they are probably 1/2 my work. Several will update to the newer SQL version, but far more
of my remaining competitors will retire and their clients will need support.

Here experience really trumps age whether they like it or not.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by tfb »

livesoft wrote:This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. ... ... She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.

Anyways, one has to take with a huge grain of salt, if not an entire salt mine, anything that these two conjure up. Some of it is true, but much of it is hyperbole.
Agree.
nisiprius wrote:On the other hand, it was a direct result of personal contacts, and during a 5-1/2-month job search I completely failed to land so much a single interview for any job, part-time or full-time, the first time this has ever happened to me--so I can't say "difficulty finding a job in one's sixties" is a myth, either.
The definition of a job needs to be expanded. If you drive for Uber, you set your own hours, full time or part time, weekdays or weekends, days or evenings. If you write books or create YouTube videos as Rick Van Ness does, nobody cares whether you are in your 60s or 70s. New York Times often run articles about these encore careers.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Meg77 »

I'm not anywhere near retirement age yet, but I do see LOTS of people over 60 and even over 70 working in banking and financial services in my city. Attorneys too have a fair number of partners long past traditional retirement age.

My mother already could claim her full pension but is still working away at her high school teaching job. She doesn't intend to quit anytime soon since she knows she could have 3 more decades of life to fill and not enough grandkids or other interests to keep her busy for that long without a job. My dad looked for work after leaving his last job around the age of 55 for a few years, but he was rejected due to being "overqualified" for the lower stress jobs he was seeking. He finally announced himself retired. He has a multi-million dollar portfolio but lives happily off about $30K a year, which social security will cover once he applies for it in another few years.

I do agree that age discrimination is real and that may people especially in the service sector may have trouble working physical jobs past 65. However I think the real reason people end up quitting work earlier than they planned is that they realize they can live on a whole lot less than they thought - and that work isn't quite so meaningful/compelling once you don't need it to pay your bills anymore.

As for meaningful semi-retirement, of course it's a pipe dream. Part time meaningful work has long been the dream of every young mother (and many fathers), not just those close to retirement age. Those jobs just don't exist yet, at least in great numbers.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by VictoriaF »

livesoft wrote:This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. She must've run out of money because her articles are starting to appear again in the various outlets. She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.
I was not familiar with the names of Helaine Olen or Teresa Ghilarducci. And I don't read Slate, unless someone recommends a article and I am interested in the topic.

From reading this particular article, I have not found anything pornographic. Perhaps, I need a course in advanced pornography? I did recognize the name of Alicia Munnell who has presented at the Retirement Research Consortium events in D.C. and is credible.

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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by bhsince87 »

According to the official government numbers, that article is very wrong. The number of 60-75 year old workers has increased dramatically in the past decade.

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dsho ... -Force.php?
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by tdogz »

bhsince87 wrote:According to the official government numbers, that article is very wrong. The number of 60-75 year old workers has increased dramatically in the past decade.

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dsho ... -Force.php?
If you go back over a larger number of years, the current numbers are much lower (but up over the last 2 decades); then again, I'm sure there are other factors to consider (gender, life spans, economy, etc.)...
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by texasdiver »

I think to some extent the ease of working into retirement age is inversely proportional to the need. Professionals with means often find it easier than laborers without means.

In any event in my current profession I know a whole bunch of teachers in my middle aged cohort who basically throw up their hands and say they will never be able to retire. Many basically have nothing saved and will be 100% dependent on their state pension and will get no social security. Here in TX that basically means working 40 years to earn a non indexed pension equal to your final highest average 5-year salary. I have also seen older out of touch teachers get forced out by being given rough assignments they can't hand like remedial freshman math. That sort of thing.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by htdrag11 »

None plan to fail, most failed to plan.

I do agree that age discrimination is real (over 60 for me - my LinkedIn profile picture tells the story). Politicians could pass legislation, but how do you enforce? :oops:

Guess I must be living in la-la land. :P
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by livesoft »

texasdiver wrote: In any event in my current profession I know a whole bunch of teachers in my middle aged cohort who basically throw up their hands and say they will never be able to retire.
My in-laws are teachers in Texas. They always throw up their hands and say they will never be able to retire. They are worth millions. It is gauche to say you are worth millions in front of younger teachers. You have to say you will never be able to retire because otherwise folks will think you are criminally insane to still be teaching in your late 60's and early 70's.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by ShiftF5 »

livesoft wrote:This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. She must've run out of money because her articles are starting to appear again in the various outlets. She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.

Anyways, one has to take with a huge grain of salt, if not an entire salt mine, anything that these two conjure up. Some of it is true, but much of it is hyperbole.

But this article does end on a positive note: "Baby boomers are going to retire. It’s time we admitted it."
Take the advice with an entire salt mine -- that's precious.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by carorun »

htdrag11 wrote:None plan to fail, most failed to plan.

I do agree that age discrimination is real (over 60 for me - my LinkedIn profile picture tells the story). Politicians could pass legislation, but how do you enforce? :oops:

Guess I must be living in la-la land. :P
Totally agree with this. I'm a millennial and I think while there are a handful of people over 60 who want to keep working for non-financial reasons (my mom is one of them), the Slate article highlights that most boomers don't have the funds saved to retire. Thinking you will just work forever is a fantasy- especially in corporate America. Age discrimination exists, people get sick, spouses get sick, parents get sick, and layoffs happen (and guess who is more expensive- a 35 year old or a 65 year old?). Aside from freelance gigs, most desk-based part time work seems to be very individual and geared around retaining an individual's knowledge in a specific skill set. I doubt all these McMansion dwellers are going to want to drive Ubers at 66.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by texasdiver »

livesoft wrote:
texasdiver wrote: In any event in my current profession I know a whole bunch of teachers in my middle aged cohort who basically throw up their hands and say they will never be able to retire.
My in-laws are teachers in Texas. They always throw up their hands and say they will never be able to retire. They are worth millions. It is gauche to say you are worth millions in front of younger teachers. You have to say you will never be able to retire because otherwise folks will think you are criminally insane to still be teaching in your late 60's and early 70's.
I think that would make them very unique. The only teachers I know who would remotely fit that category are those who are married to high earning husbands. Which is actually fairly common. The great majority who actually live off their teachers salary do not even know what a 403b is much less invest in one, and those who do generally buy annuity products from that nice insurance guy they know from church. I haven't run into a single other teacher who knows that here in TX we can self administer a no fee 493b through Vanguard or Fidelity much less is actually doing it.

What I do see in my school every day are retired teachers working as subs, some of which must be in their late 70s or older who have a hard time just making it up the steps to the 2nd floor. They aren't doing it because they love the kids and are looking for fulfillment in life. They are living exclusively off pensions that haven't gone up in 20 years.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by htdrag11 »

Here is a different view about a HUGE problem coming down the pipe:

Wall Street Has Its Eyes on Millennials' $30 Trillion Inheritance

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-stre ... 37160.html

Where are these $30 trillions coming from, the 1%? :mrgreen:
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by bhsince87 »

htdrag11 wrote:Here is a different view about a HUGE problem coming down the pipe:

Wall Street Has Its Eyes on Millennials' $30 Trillion Inheritance

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/wall-stre ... 37160.html

Where are these $30 trillions coming from, the 1%? :mrgreen:
Actually, from the 10%! As I mentioned in another post today, 10.1 million American households are now millionaires or better.

That's $10 trillion at a minimum right there!
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by bluemarlin08 »

My dad is 87, an insurance broker, earns more now part time than he did 20 years ago full time, as do I.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by littlebird »

Don't worry. I'm old enough to remember that boomers weren't going to "sell out" and move to the suburbs and buy "little houses made of 'tickey tack'". Until they did. :)
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Independent »

I like this Ghilarducci quote: “Working longer is a retirement plan like winning the lottery or dying earlier is a retirement plan. Being able to work longer is not a plan. It’s a hope.”

Lots of people retire because they are forced to -- poor health, employer downsizes, age discrimination when they apply for another job, "just can't take the stress any longer".

I had a chance to do some part time work after I retired. I appreciate the fact that the person who replaced me called me back for a couple short projects. But, that's not a "plan". That's "winning a (pretty small) lottery".

The concern is 45 year-olds who rationalize not saving because "I'd get bored at home", "I enjoy my job", "The little I can save won't make any difference anyway", "I'll just switch to the part-time hobby-job that I've always wanted".
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by staythecourse »

It is naïve for any person who has worked to NOT have seen ageism in the workplace. Like it or not it exists. As more and more companies have to find ways to cut the liabilities side of the ledger to artificially boost profit margins the more the higher paid, i.e. "experienced" workers will be targeted and replaced by younger, cheaper options.

I think folks looking to work part time in their 70's to be financially viable better start considering other options just in case.

Good luck.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by VictoriaF »

VictoriaF wrote:
livesoft wrote:This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. She must've run out of money because her articles are starting to appear again in the various outlets. She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.
I was not familiar with the names of Helaine Olen or Teresa Ghilarducci. And I don't read Slate, unless someone recommends a article and I am interested in the topic.

From reading this particular article, I have not found anything pornographic. Perhaps, I need a course in advanced pornography? I did recognize the name of Alicia Munnell who has presented at the Retirement Research Consortium events in D.C. and is credible.

Victoria
I was reminded about this thread by a well-known poster, and so I re-read it, including my own comment. My new thought is that, while Justice Potter Stewart could recognize pornography when he saw it, financial porn is less recognizable and more dependent on the interpretation.

If livesoft's point is that a suggestion to work longer as a solution to one's inadequate assets is nonsense, I agree with it. (To be clear, I agree with livesoft, not with a suggestion to work longer as a financial plan.). It's not the same hard porn as pushing loaded funds, but perhaps it qualifies as soft porn. While most of us realize that working longer is frequently not an option, simpler souls early in their careers may be slated into foregoing savings due to false hopes.

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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

tfb wrote: The definition of a job needs to be expanded. If you drive for Uber, you set your own hours, full time or part time, weekdays or weekends, days or evenings. If you write books or create YouTube videos as Rick Van Ness does, nobody cares whether you are in your 60s or 70s. New York Times often run articles about these encore careers.
The percentage of people who can generate a meaningful amount of income by writing books, blogs or creating Youtube videos is probably pretty small, and Uber sounds like a miserable way to make a small amount of money.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by VictoriaF »

Louis Winthorpe III wrote:
tfb wrote: The definition of a job needs to be expanded. If you drive for Uber, you set your own hours, full time or part time, weekdays or weekends, days or evenings. If you write books or create YouTube videos as Rick Van Ness does, nobody cares whether you are in your 60s or 70s. New York Times often run articles about these encore careers.
The percentage of people who can generate a meaningful amount of income by writing books, blogs or creating Youtube videos is probably pretty small, ...
I agree.

Equating individual positive outcomes with a general state of affairs is a logical and statistical fallacy. Some writers, bloggers, eBay traders, and other freelancers are spectacularly successful. But their success cannot be generalized to the population at large. Furthermore, there are numerous people in poorer countries who have a good command of English and are competing with Americans on the web while accepting lower compensation for writing and other assignments.

I am planning to do some blogging, and I may accept some advertising income (I have not decided it yet). I also want to write a book. The expected value of my income from these activities is low, and it is not a part of my financial planning. If a positive Black-Swan lands in my home office and leads me to success, I will still not recommend a retirement job as a replacement for retirement savings.

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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by montanagirl »

I can't believe it's all so bad as they say, but you just got to have that house paid off, not a lot of debt and live in a reasonable COL area. Or have a ton of money.

Anyway in my six months of collecting unemployment I went to several job interviews and later got to see who was hired..definitely lean toward very young workers. Even when the salary is fixed either way, like in a local govt job. I think there are genuine psychological reasons for this and to tell the truth I would have felt as awkward going to work for someone my age as they would have felt supervising me. Managers do like that parent/child mentoring relationship.

So I refuse to get all uptight about "age discrimination" though I could probably make a case, both for not being hired and being laid off at 65 in the first place. But I'm having too much fun to care. :beer
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by mnaspbh »

Louis Winthorpe III wrote:
tfb wrote: The definition of a job needs to be expanded. If you drive for Uber, you set your own hours, full time or part time, weekdays or weekends, days or evenings. If you write books or create YouTube videos as Rick Van Ness does, nobody cares whether you are in your 60s or 70s. New York Times often run articles about these encore careers.
The percentage of people who can generate a meaningful amount of income by writing books, blogs or creating Youtube videos is probably pretty small, and Uber sounds like a miserable way to make a small amount of money.
If it's anything like the mobile app market, incomes follow an exponential distribution. The "average" may look pretty decent, but the median is zero or negative (i.e., the activity costs money, as happens for the vast majority of mobile app developers). A tiny number of mega-successes pull the average up past that, and they provide just enough fodder for a small but steady stream of popular media success stories.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by Lynette »

I think a lot depends on the timing of someone older trying to get a job. During the 2008 - 2009 recession, I think my megacorp cut their employee numbers by 33%. Now they are hiring again. Employees with skills in legacy software were protected from layoffs regardless of age. Some are retiring now at 65. Another department has a bunch of 70+ year-old employees. They simply don't want to retire and their skills and experience are nearly irreplaceable. I'm nearly 72 and there is no pressure on me to retire but I do intend to move on in about 18 months. I want to learn languages and travel.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by likegarden »

Years ago when I retired at age 62 I had no problem finding part-time work at my former employer for another 7 years. At age 71 one company wanted to interview me for work, but I did not like working in the nuclear industry. Finding a job in retirement probably depends on the demand for your skill.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Fallible »

VictoriaF wrote:
Louis Winthorpe III wrote:
tfb wrote: The definition of a job needs to be expanded. If you drive for Uber, you set your own hours, full time or part time, weekdays or weekends, days or evenings. If you write books or create YouTube videos as Rick Van Ness does, nobody cares whether you are in your 60s or 70s. New York Times often run articles about these encore careers.
The percentage of people who can generate a meaningful amount of income by writing books, blogs or creating Youtube videos is probably pretty small, ...
I agree.

Equating individual positive outcomes with a general state of affairs is a logical and statistical fallacy. Some writers, bloggers, eBay traders, and other freelancers are spectacularly successful. But their success cannot be generalized to the population at large. Furthermore, there are numerous people in poorer countries who have a good command of English and are competing with Americans on the web while accepting lower compensation for writing and other assignments.l

I am planning to do some blogging, and I may accept some advertising income (I have not decided it yet). I also want to write a book. The expected value of my income from these activities is low, and it is not a part of my financial planning. If a positive Black-Swan lands in my home office and leads me to success, I will still not recommend a retirement job as a replacement for retirement savings.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by DonCamillo »

My father had his own business into his 70s while collecting a pension from earlier retirement. He worked ten to twenty hours a week, and averaged several times his state's median hourly wage for that work.

I am a non-tenured university instructor. I work 4 days a week 30 weeks a year, with a professional salary and full benefits. I have several colleagues with similar situations, two of whom retired in the past couple of years at the age of eighty.

My brother just got a new professional job at the age of 69. He already has two good pensions.

My piano tuner "fired" all his clients with pets, or low quality pianos, or difficult personalities. He still works a couple of days a week, charges over $100 an hour, and raises his prices every January.

I had a friend who retired from a professional engineering job at 65, and took a job at university until the age of 100. He started full time, but tapered off to part time. I went to his magnificent combined 100th Birthday/Retirement Party put on by the university. He died about 7 years later.

Unfortunately, of these examples, only my brother is a "baby boomer." The others are older. But I still think the opportunities are there for well paid part-time jobs for people in their 70s.

I have also learned that the credibility of Slate is far lower than the credibility of the Bogleheads forum. Much of what they publish is wingnut propaganda.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by VictoriaF »

Fallible wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:I am planning to do some blogging, and I may accept some advertising income (I have not decided it yet). I also want to write a book. The expected value of my income from these activities is low, and it is not a part of my financial planning. If a positive Black-Swan lands in my home office and leads me to success, I will still not recommend a retirement job as a replacement for retirement savings.
Victoria
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Thank you, Fallible! You are absolutely right, and I need occasional reminders of my primary goals.

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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by gasdoc »

While age descrimination may be a large factor, I think the larger factor is simply declining physical health and declining mental capabilities. As a physician, it is easy to see that the hospitals are becoming full with aging baby boomers- most of which could not be expected to maintain employment sufficient to provide a sustainable salary. This is not something a 40-something year old would think about as they spend every penny they make, but I think the main point of the article is that you can hope you have the good fortune of being capable of maintaining reasonable employment in your 60's and beyond, but you certainly cannot plan on it.

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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by VictoriaF »

gasdoc wrote:While age descrimination may be a large factor, I think the larger factor is simply declining physical health and declining mental capabilities. As a physician, it is easy to see that the hospitals are becoming full with aging baby boomers- most of which could not be expected to maintain employment sufficient to provide a sustainable salary.

gasdoc
You may be influenced by the Availability Bias. As a physician, you see many ill people and tend to exaggerate their prevalence in the population.

Victoria
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jabberwockOG
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by jabberwockOG »

Hoping to work past 65 because you have not adequately secured your retirement and security for your later years? As others have posted hope is not a plan. Like the old saying goes - failing to plan is planning to fail.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by seamonkey »

livesoft wrote:This is just more retirement porn from Helaine Olen who certainly has an axe to grind. She must've run out of money because her articles are starting to appear again in the various outlets. She always quotes Teresa Ghilarducci, too.
In the eye of the beholder. Just as a good portion of the posts on this beloved and extremely valuable site can be seen as pornographic despite the opposite intent.

Olen's "article" is commentary, not original research, and it's not even disguised as orignal research. There is value in dissemination of the premise that working forever is not a viable plan for many individuals, and it tries to shred the Invicibility Cloak that people tend to wear from young adulthood right up to the moment of disability or mortality. We preach planning for a financial safety net to insure against the unforeseen, but while people tend to plan for job loss or underemployment, far less plan for disability or decreased capacity from aging.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by Wagnerjb »

staythecourse wrote:It is naïve for any person who has worked to NOT have seen ageism in the workplace. Like it or not it exists. As more and more companies have to find ways to cut the liabilities side of the ledger to artificially boost profit margins the more the higher paid, i.e. "experienced" workers will be targeted and replaced by younger, cheaper options.
What you describe is what I refer to as "acting economically rational". If you can hire a "younger cheaper" option - even if they are only slightly less productive - then why would you hire a 60-year old, who demands a higher salary, has much higher medical costs, and is not going to be a candidate for the management ranks some day? The younger worker may develop into management talent and you need to keep young people coming into the company to groom future managers.

The 60-year old needs to be much more productive (and not paid too much more) to be competitive with a younger person with otherwise similar qualifications. The work force needs the experience that older workers bring, but in my experience many older workers suffer declines in productivity, such as not being able (or willing) to use new technology or processes or systems.

It seems to me that the best of both worlds would be to create part-time positions for older workers who want to continue working. They need to be willing to work for lower compensation and benefits (that would be a huge mind set change) but the corporations should be willing to pay the lower compensation for the experience that older workers bring to the equation.

Best wishes.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by Feb29 »

I love articles that start out appearing to be objective. Then at the end we see the real agenda: write to Congress and demand they increase Social Security payments "with the bill paid by the wealthy".
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by Wagnerjb »

Feb29 wrote:I love articles that start out appearing to be objective. Then at the end we see the real agenda: write to Congress and demand they increase Social Security payments "with the bill paid by the wealthy".
Yup, this kind of "journalism" makes me sick. Don't bother saving for retirement....just vote for elected officials who will steal from the hardworking savers and give to those who spend all they make.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by montanagirl »

Feb29 wrote:I love articles that start out appearing to be objective. Then at the end we see the real agenda: write to Congress and demand they increase Social Security payments "with the bill paid by the wealthy".
+1

I hate when the *assume* that you know, we ALL got so burned in the recession...always someone else's fault...I most certainly did not get burned..
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by unclescrooge »

tdogz wrote:
bhsince87 wrote:According to the official government numbers, that article is very wrong. The number of 60-75 year old workers has increased dramatically in the past decade.

http://www.advisorperspectives.com/dsho ... -Force.php?
If you go back over a larger number of years, the current numbers are much lower (but up over the last 2 decades); then again, I'm sure there are other factors to consider (gender, life spans, economy, etc.)...
Image
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2 ... -told.aspx
Considering that the average lifespan in 1900 for males was 46, I'd say this data might be somewhat skewed!

I think it's going to be hard for anyone over 60 to find a *job*, however if you're a consultant or an entrepreneur, or otherwise self-employed, it should be easier to find part-time work because of the contacts and knowledge you've built up over the past several decades.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by DonCamillo »

Nirav wrote: Considering that the average lifespan in 1900 for males was 46, I'd say this data might be somewhat skewed!
The reason for the low life expectancy was mostly infant and child mortality. One of my grandfathers, born in 1900, was one of 19 children. Ten of them died before the age of 6 months, all from poor sanitation and bad water in poverty (diarrhea). All of the rest lived into their sixties or later.

One of my grandmothers was one of two survivors out of five children. The other three died of disease (two of diphtheria) between the ages of five and eight.The survivors lived into their seventies.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a

Post by staythecourse »

Wagnerjb wrote:
staythecourse wrote:It is naïve for any person who has worked to NOT have seen ageism in the workplace. Like it or not it exists. As more and more companies have to find ways to cut the liabilities side of the ledger to artificially boost profit margins the more the higher paid, i.e. "experienced" workers will be targeted and replaced by younger, cheaper options.
What you describe is what I refer to as "acting economically rational". If you can hire a "younger cheaper" option - even if they are only slightly less productive - then why would you hire a 60-year old, who demands a higher salary, has much higher medical costs, and is not going to be a candidate for the management ranks some day? The younger worker may develop into management talent and you need to keep young people coming into the company to groom future managers.

The 60-year old needs to be much more productive (and not paid too much more) to be competitive with a younger person with otherwise similar qualifications. The work force needs the experience that older workers bring, but in my experience many older workers suffer declines in productivity, such as not being able (or willing) to use new technology or processes or systems.

It seems to me that the best of both worlds would be to create part-time positions for older workers who want to continue working. They need to be willing to work for lower compensation and benefits (that would be a huge mind set change) but the corporations should be willing to pay the lower compensation for the experience that older workers bring to the equation.

Best wishes.
100% agree. America is built on capitalism so if you can do something with a higher profit margin by decreasing cost it is not difficult to figure out what corporate America will sway.

Good luck.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by gasdoc »

VictoriaF wrote:
gasdoc wrote:While age descrimination may be a large factor, I think the larger factor is simply declining physical health and declining mental capabilities. As a physician, it is easy to see that the hospitals are becoming full with aging baby boomers- most of which could not be expected to maintain employment sufficient to provide a sustainable salary.

gasdoc
You may be influenced by the Availability Bias. As a physician, you see many ill people and tend to exaggerate their prevalence in the population.

Victoria
Victoria,
You may be right. What I see is not necessarily representative of society at large. But the demographics are sure changing fast!

gasdoc
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by cherijoh »

From the linked article:
The Federal Reserve says the median amount held in all retirement accounts—individual or workplace—where the head of the household is at least 35 but hasn’t yet reached the official retirement age of 65 is $59,000.
IMO, this quote alone qualifies the article as financial porn. While it might be true, taking a median of savings across a range of 30 years is totally meaningless. People are undoubtedly under-saving, but the author went looking for a number that would have shock value.

I do agree with the author that continuing to work after a certain age is far more dependent on the employer than the employee's willingness to continue working. And getting a new job after a certain age is very tough. (I speak from experience). If you have procrastinated about saving for retirement and plan to do it in your "peak earning years", keep in mind that your peak earning years could turn out to be in your 40s. :shock:
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by VictoriaF »

cherijoh wrote:From the linked article:
The Federal Reserve says the median amount held in all retirement accounts—individual or workplace—where the head of the household is at least 35 but hasn’t yet reached the official retirement age of 65 is $59,000.
IMO, this quote alone qualifies the article as financial porn. While it might be true, taking a median of savings across a range of 30 years is totally meaningless. People are undoubtedly under-saving, but the author went looking for a number that would have shock value.
You took the citation out of the context. The article includes the following references, in their order of appearance (the numbering is mine):
Slate wrote:1. According to Alicia Munnell, the director of Boston College’s Center for Retirement Research, the average retirement age, which crept up slowly for a generation, stalled out in 2008 at 64 for men and 62 for women.

2. In 2013 a MetLife Mature Market Institute survey found half of those born in 1946 had already completely retired and only one in five were working full-time.

3. A more recent survey by Gallup reported a mere third of boomers aged 67 or 68 were employed.
...
4. According to Fidelity Investments, the average 401(k) account belonging to someone at least 55 years old is worth $165,000.

5. The Federal Reserve says the median amount held in all retirement accounts—individual or workplace—where the head of the household is at least 35 but hasn’t yet reached the official retirement age of 65 is $59,000.
Taken together, these five references provide a balanced view illustrating the author's premise that:
(a) people should not expect working well into their 60s and 70s
(b) people have not accumulated enough to retire at 65
cherijoh wrote:I do agree with the author that continuing to work after a certain age is far more dependent on the employer than the employee's willingness to continue working. And getting a new job after a certain age is very tough. (I speak from experience). If you have procrastinated about saving for retirement and plan to do it in your "peak earning years", keep in mind that your peak earning years could turn out to be in your 40s. :shock:
The author's main theme is that people are misled about their ability to earn money late in life, in repudiation of the statements by the AARP and Wall Street Journal cited in the beginning of the article. You seem to agree with the author's main point.

Victoria
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by wm631 »

Victoria: Not everything is an up-scale white-collar world, air-conditioned; where you can make your own hours and conditions. You didn't mention when you're going back to a rotating 12-hr. shift job in the oil-refining industry. Maybe construction ... on a roof ? Or a waiter-waitress job, five or six days a week, 10-14 hr. days. To quote the Dean Martin character in "Oceans 11" - "... are any of you liars the man you were twenty years ago? I'm certainly not ...".

Been there, done that. And there's a time to get out of the way. You may not be contributing as much as you think you are.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by VictoriaF »

wm631 wrote:Victoria: Not everything is an up-scale white-collar world, air-conditioned; where you can make your own hours and conditions. You didn't mention when you're going back to a rotating 12-hr. shift job in the oil-refining industry. Maybe construction ... on a roof ? Or a waiter-waitress job, five or six days a week, 10-14 hr. days. To quote the Dean Martin character in "Oceans 11" - "... are any of you liars the man you were twenty years ago? I'm certainly not ...".
None of my comments are based on the assumptions that you attribute to me.
wm631 wrote:Been there, done that. And there's a time to get out of the way. You may not be contributing as much as you think you are.
I contribute as best I can, justify my statements, and avoid personal attacks. I recommend you do the same.

Victoria
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by wm631 »

Not aimed at you so much as at the general over-all opinion on this section that thinks the physical aging factor isn't increasingly important after 50 - in every way. The point of the Slate article and the previous medical doctor's real-life observations were, acceptable or not, accurate.
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by gasdoc »

wm631 wrote:Not aimed at you so much as at the general over-all opinion on this section that thinks the physical aging factor isn't increasingly important after 50 - in every way. The point of the Slate article and the previous medical doctor's real-life observations were, acceptable or not, accurate.
wm631,
Thank you for making my point more eloquently than did I. For the entire spectrum of health care providers- nurses, therapists, doctors, technicians, etc.- long shifts covering days, nights, weekends and holidays are more the rule than the exception. Hospitals cannot survive on daytime workers alone. This can be physically as well as mentally exhausting, and at some point, there is just not a position available for the 60-something-year-old who wants to continue to work. It is natural that a company might prefer a younger person who perhaps picks things up a little faster. As a 54 year old physician, I see the writing on the wall, as the 24 hour shifts are not getting any easier. And it is not always easy to find another position as other locations mostly are interested in hiring new grads right out of residencies. I am guessing there are careers in the non-healthcare world that are analagous.

gaswork
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Re: Slate Article: Dream on Babyboomers-Semiretirement is a Myth

Post by livesoft »

VictoriaF wrote:Taken together, these five references provide a balanced view illustrating the author's premise that:
(a) people should not expect working well into their 60s and 70s
(b) people have not accumulated enough to retire at 65
Maybe not.
(a) people should not expect working well into their 60s and 70s because they will have enough money to retire
(b) people have accumulated enough to retire at 65 (or full retirement age) since they get income from other sources besides their savings

1. https://www.soa.org/News-and-Publicatio ... -Age-.aspx is a "reprint" Alicia Munnell work. I see it the average workforce participation rates of men getting lower and lower as time has gone on. That means they stop working sooner. The recent reversal is small and probably has a trivial explanation: Folks in 2008-2009 probably wanted to delay retirement until their portfolio came back from the bottom and/or the economy looked a little nicer.

2. Plenty of good retirement news in this one. They don't need to work.

3. Fewer folks working as they got older, so they must not be working which is kind of a definition of retirement when one is old. If one was young, that would be called unemployed.

4. Does Fidelity measure all account available? Probably not. Does Fidelity measure all income available? Definitely not. I think this point needs fleshing out to say it contributes to any idea that folks have not accumulated enough. Maybe that is enough?

5. We know that low income folks get most of their retirement income from social security because during their working years, they had low income and could not contribute to retirement plans. Also with their low income, they had to have low expenses for the most part. Thus, this statistic does not support "accumulated enough". It is possible that accumulating nothing is, in fact, enough for many people.
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