I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

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Cody
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I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Cody »

Here how it worked. My wife is 62 and is currently receiving a reduced benefit for filing before Full Retirement Age. (she was our lower income earner so that made sense for her to start then). Plus she is 3 1/2 years younger so I want to postpone my benefits as long as possible.

I filed a Restrictive Application today at age 66 (FRA for me) (my birthday is Feb 19) and will draw a spousal benefit on my wife’s record (thats the key).

Because I am now FRA, I get half of what her FRA benefit (another key - not half of what she gets now but half of what she would get at her FRA had she waited). Bonus!

Then at any time I want or until age 70, I can file for my own benefit which has grown at 8% a year untouched.

A couple of thoughts:
When I got to the SS Office (had an appointment I had set up a month earlier) the lady asked if I wanted to "file and suspend”. I was prepared for that question and handed her a copy of exactly what I wanted (basically the above gleaned from the Boglehead Forum). She said “ok lets do it”. That saved me lots of explaining. This is not “file and suspend” and Bogleheads had said don’t even use that phrase at my meeting. It is a "Restrictive Application."

Secondly I am not now actually claiming my Social Security. My app is based strictly on my wives work record and not mine. My benefits are untouched. Because I filed on my spouse’s record they will mail me a new medicare card with a new number. Apparently it will be my wife's SS number appended by "-B1”. But there is no change in my Medicare payments or benefits (other than they will now take my Medicare payment out of my monthly SS check). It get my own Medicare number when I abandon the Restrictive APP.

Thirdly, as is the case with all SS payment Federal tax can be withheld at 7 1/2%, 10%, 15% or 25%. But no state tax can be withheld so I need to be aware that at tax time I will have to pony up (or I may do an estimated MN State income tax and send in the amount I know will be needed there).

Forthly, since I am postponing my out SS until later I am using our own retirement resoures to fund our expenses. As it turns out the Restrictive Application money will now fund 1/3 of our monthly expenses and we will contribute 2/3's of it. Until now we contributed 100% of those expenses.

Thought you might be interested,
cody
choices
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by choices »

This is EXAcTLY what we plan to do in 3years! Smart move, glad it worked well for you.
hulburt1
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by hulburt1 »

Can this be done if I'm older then wife but she has a higher ss. Planning ahead I'm 62 she is 58.
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ObliviousInvestor
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

Excellent summary, Cody. Thanks for sharing your experience.
hulburt1 wrote:Can this be done if I'm older then wife but she has a higher ss. Planning ahead I'm 62 she is 58.
A similar strategy, but with the roles reversed could make sense. If your wife has the higher primary insurance amount, she is likely the one who should wait until 70 to start receiving her own retirement benefit.

In other words:
1) You file at any point (62-70).
2) Your wife files a restricted application at her FRA, to receive 50% of your PIA.
3) Your wife then files for her own retirement benefit at 70.
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freebeer
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by freebeer »

Can this be done if the parties are divorced (i.e. suppose OP was no longer married to his wife)?
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by The Wizard »

freebeer wrote:Can this be done if the parties are divorced (i.e. suppose OP was no longer married to his wife)?
Yes, provided greater than ten years married and not remarried...
Attempted new signature...
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desertbandit442
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by desertbandit442 »

Thanks for sharing your experience Cody. I'll be doing the same thing in four years.
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BigFoot48
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by BigFoot48 »

ObliviousInvestor has a nice summary of claiming strategies on his website: http://www.obliviousinvestor.com/social ... d-couples/ I also like this AAII one which focuses on spousal benefit options: http://www.aaii.com/journal/article/soc ... ples.touch (I've been trying to include all these options in my Retiree Portfolio Model but it's a heck of a challenge!)
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baddriver
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by baddriver »

I have found the following social security calculator to be very helpful in determining the optimal strategy: http://www.bedrockcapital.com/ssanalyze/

For our situation it makes sense that one spouse file "restricted application" at full retirement age to collect 50% of the spousal benefit. Then once at 70 years old file for the enhanced benefit that has accrued.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ChrisC »

I have one wrinkle to this scenario. If one spouse is subject to WEP and GPO and claims retirement benefits at 62, can the other spouse file a restricted application at 66 and receive spousal benefits, and does WEP reduce the spousal benefits?
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

ChrisC wrote:I have one wrinkle to this scenario. If one spouse is subject to WEP and GPO and claims retirement benefits at 62, can the other spouse file a restricted application at 66 and receive spousal benefits, and does WEP reduce the spousal benefits?
The WEP reduces the government employee's primary insurance amount (PIA), thereby reducing all benefits based on that person's PIA (i.e., that person's own retirement benefit, a spouse's benefit based on that person's work record, a widow/widower's benefit based on that person's work record, etc.).

Edited to add: But, yes, the other spouse can still file a restricted application for spousal benefits (they'll just be smaller than they'd be if the WEP did not exist).
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Workinghard
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Workinghard »

We are also planning on doing this if I'm not working age 62. My husband is six years older than me, and the higher earner. However, his restricted application will only be for two years before he turns 70. We will also be doing some conversions to Roths before starting SS. Thanks for sharing your experience!
mur44
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by mur44 »

Cody, thanks for the tidbits.

My question: Is it possible to file an
SS 'Restrictive Application' online?
or one has to go to SS office to get it done?
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

mur44 wrote:Cody, thanks for the tidbits.

My question: Is it possible to file an
SS 'Restrictive Application' online?
or one has to go to SS office to get it done?
Yes, you can file a restricted application online. There is a point at which they ask something to the effect of, "If you are eligible for both retirement benefits and spousal benefits, do you want to delay receipt of your retirement benefits?"

Here's a pdf of what the application process used to look like (see the second-to-last slide). My understanding is that the page now looks somewhat different, but a question with the same purpose is still included in the application.
http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10523.pdf
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Mr Rosco
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Mr Rosco »

Thanks for sharing. I have just started to research this so I am not clear on spousal benefits. So in this case after filing a restricted application you will draw half of your spouses benefits at FRA? In other words you collect the money while your spouse is collecting money as well?

How does that payment change when you start to draw your own benefit at 70?

How does it change when a spouse passes away?
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by 2beachcombers »

Good plan- and she(@66) can also collect on your record

We did the following:

1 wife(2yrs younger) lower earner--Started SS at 62
2 me at 66, filed and suspended(restricted app is new to me?) filed for wife FRA/2(collected for 2 yrs)
3 Wife at 66, filed for spousal and started my FRA/2-----I then lost my spousal on her record
4 I will start at 70 in 6 months

sscritic--& ObliviousInvestor--you've helped a lot of us :happy

jerry------------EDITS

sscritic PM corrected what I thought I did. :beer

1) wife started at 62
2) you at 66 filed as your wife's husband (this is restricted, not file and suspend - you may have told the agent what you wanted to do without using the terms)
3) When wife was 66, then you filed and suspended so that she could be your wife. At that point you are collecting your own benefit based on a PIA more than half of hers, so you can no longer her her husband.
4) Congrats!

Looked back at a 2010 post from sscritic and he told me specifically--use the word WITHDRAW not suspend. The following is recommendation and what we followed.

The second strategy pays family totals of
ages 65 and 62 until 66 and 64: $512
ages 66 and 63 until 68 and 66: $853
ages 68 and 66 until 70 and 68: $921
after ages 70 and 68: $921 + $2884 = $3805
after first death: $2884

Very happy he is still lurking here.
Last edited by 2beachcombers on Fri Jan 30, 2015 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by 2beachcombers »

Mr Rosco wrote:Thanks for sharing. I have just started to research this so I am not clear on spousal benefits. So in this case after filing a restricted application you will draw half of your spouses benefits at FRA? In other words you collect the money while your spouse is collecting money as well? :happy :happy YES !

How does that payment change when you start to draw your own benefit at 70?

How does it change when a spouse passes away?
We started looking at SS options as my main objective was to provide wife with highest SS at my passing. delaying to 70 is the answer.
I also wanted to reduce my income due to medicare limits on Part B

SS has very complex rules that can used to gain optimum income for both of us.
See my post above
Spousal bene does not change when one starts at 70.

To understand this, get Mike's(ObliviousInvestor) book and make a spreadsheet for your options--I invested days on this years ago.

jerry
Last edited by 2beachcombers on Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
rixer
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by rixer »

Cody, we did the same thing. The wife is 3.5 years younger so when she retired at 63, I was just a few months past 66 so I filed restricted application for spousal on her benefit. I plan to delay till 70 but knowing that I can file for my own benefit any time is comforting.

It's nice to get paid while you wait. :happy Congrats!
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by tc101 »

Could I benefit from a restrictive app?

I am 65. My wife is 60. She has higher social security earnings than me. I am retired. She is still working. I have not taken social security yet.

I have not thought about this much and find it confusing.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

tc101 wrote:Could I benefit from a restrictive app?

I am 65. My wife is 60. She has higher social security earnings than me. I am retired. She is still working. I have not taken social security yet.
For you to be able to file for a spousal benefit (which is what a restricted application is), your wife must have filed for her own retirement benefit. And, in most cases, it makes sense for the higher-PIA spouse to wait as long as possible to start receiving retirement benefits. In other words, unless there's other relevant information (government pension, atypical life expectancies, etc.), it's unlikely that you filing a restricted application is likely to be beneficial at any point.

More likely is that your wife will be able to benefit from filing a restricted application, collecting spousal benefits based on your work record (from FRA to 70) while allowing her own retirement benefit to continue growing. (Alternatively, if your wife's PIA is much greater than yours, it may make sense for her to file and suspend at her FRA rather than filing a restricted application. That would allow you to start receiving a spousal benefit on her work record while she allows her own retirement benefit to continue growing.)
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by jjustice »

Only about a dozen states tax social security income, but Cody's state, Minnesota, is one that does.

John
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by 2beachcombers »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
tc101 wrote:Could I benefit from a restrictive app?

I am 65. My wife is 60. She has higher social security earnings than me. I am retired. She is still working. I have not taken social security yet.
For you to be able to file for a spousal benefit (which is what a restricted application is), your wife must have filed for her own retirement benefit. And, in most cases, it makes sense for the higher-PIA spouse to wait as long as possible to start receiving retirement benefits. In other words, unless there's other relevant information (government pension, atypical life expectancies, etc.), it's unlikely that you filing a restricted application is likely to be beneficial at any point.

More likely is that your wife will be able to benefit from filing a restricted application, collecting spousal benefits based on your work record (from FRA to 70) while allowing her own retirement benefit to continue growing. (Alternatively, if your wife's PIA is much greater than yours, it may make sense for her to file and suspend at her FRA rather than filing a restricted application. That would allow you to start receiving a spousal benefit on her work record while she allows her own retirement benefit to continue growing.)

I don't remember the reason but when my wife reached 66 and gained my SS/2. My spousal was stopped. (maybe because i filled and suspended?)
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

2beachcombers wrote:We did the following:

1 wife(2yrs younger) lower earner--Started SS at 62
2 me at 66, filed and suspended(restricted app is new to me?) filed for wife FRA/2(collected for 2 yrs)
3 Wife at 66, filed for spousal and started my FRA/2-----I then lost my spousal on her record
4 I will start at 70 in 6 months
2beachcombers wrote:I don't remember the reason but when my wife reached 66 and gained my SS/2. My spousal was stopped. (maybe because i filled and suspended?)
What you did in step 2 -- claiming spousal benefits based on your wife's work record, without filing for your own retirement benefit -- is a restricted application (as opposed to filing and suspending).

Then, what must have happened in step 3 is that you filed for your own retirement benefit (in order to allow your wife to file for spousal benefits), and you suspended because you wanted your own retirement benefit to continue growing until 70. But you became ineligible for spousal benefits due to requirement (d) here. (That is, you were now "entitled" to a retirement benefit that was based on a PIA that's greater than 50% of your wife's PIA.)
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by 2beachcombers »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
2beachcombers wrote:We did the following:

1 wife(2yrs younger) lower earner--Started SS at 62
2 me at 66, filed and suspended(restricted app is new to me?) filed for wife FRA/2(collected for 2 yrs)
3 Wife at 66, filed for spousal and started my FRA/2-----I then lost my spousal on her record
4 I will start at 70 in 6 months
2beachcombers wrote:I don't remember the reason but when my wife reached 66 and gained my SS/2. My spousal was stopped. (maybe because i filled and suspended?)
What you did in step 2 -- claiming spousal benefits based on your wife's work record, without filing for your own retirement benefit -- is a restricted application (as opposed to filing and suspending).

Then, what must have happened in step 3 is that you filed for your own retirement benefit (in order to allow your wife to file for spousal benefits), and you suspended because you wanted your own retirement benefit to continue growing until 70. But you became ineligible for spousal benefits due to requirement (d) here. (That is, you were now "entitled" to a retirement benefit that was based on a PIA that's greater than 50% of your wife's PIA.)
Got it--thanks
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by tc101 »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
tc101 wrote:Could I benefit from a restrictive app?

I am 65. My wife is 60. She has higher social security earnings than me. I am retired. She is still working. I have not taken social security yet.
For you to be able to file for a spousal benefit (which is what a restricted application is), your wife must have filed for her own retirement benefit. And, in most cases, it makes sense for the higher-PIA spouse to wait as long as possible to start receiving retirement benefits. In other words, unless there's other relevant information (government pension, atypical life expectancies, etc.), it's unlikely that you filing a restricted application is likely to be beneficial at any point.

More likely is that your wife will be able to benefit from filing a restricted application, collecting spousal benefits based on your work record (from FRA to 70) while allowing her own retirement benefit to continue growing. (Alternatively, if your wife's PIA is much greater than yours, it may make sense for her to file and suspend at her FRA rather than filing a restricted application. That would allow you to start receiving a spousal benefit on her work record while she allows her own retirement benefit to continue growing.)
Thanks for the info. I guess this means I can put off studying the question until she is closer to 62.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by richard »

I had thought that for one spouse to file and suspend and the other spouse to file a restrictive app to collect spousal benefits, both had to be at FRA. Is this not true?
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by dodecahedron »

Illuminating discussion of the confusing terminology and options.

Just to clarify how these terms apply to my own situation: I am a widow. I am planning to file for SS benefits on my own earnings record (ONLY) at age 62 (later this year) and defer filing for my widow's benefits until FRA. As I understand it, thanks in part to Oblivious Investor's book, my FRA widow's benefits will not be affected by the fact of my claiming my own-earnings benefits at age 62.

Is it correct for me to tell the SSA that I am filing a "restricted" application for my own-record benefits at age 62? Do I need to do this in person at the SSA office or is it safe to do this on-line? (In other words, is there any risk that I will click some button in the on-line process that mysteriously screws up these plans?)
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

richard wrote:I had thought that for one spouse to file and suspend and the other spouse to file a restrictive app to collect spousal benefits, both had to be at FRA. Is this not true?
In order to file a restricted application, you must have reached FRA.
And in order to suspend, you must have reached FRA.
So if the file and suspend and the restricted application are happening at the same time, then yes, both spouses would have to already be FRA or older.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Leif »

Cody wrote:Here how it worked. My wife is 62 and is currently receiving a reduced benefit for filing before Full Retirement Age. (she was our lower income earner so that made sense for her to start then). Plus she is 3 1/2 years younger so I want to postpone my benefits as long as possible.

I filed a Restrictive Application today at age 66 (FRA for me) (my birthday is Feb 19) and will draw a spousal benefit on my wife’s record (thats the key).

Because I am now FRA, I get half of what her FRA benefit (another key - not half of what she gets now but half of what she would get at her FRA had she waited). Bonus!

Then at any time I want or until age 70, I can file for my own benefit which has grown at 8% a year untouched.

Thought you might be interested,
cody
I might think of going with file & suspend instead of spousal benefits in the following case:
1. Spousal benefit is small.
2. Health of person receiving the spousal benefit is not that great.
3. You a expecting a large benefit at 70.

The reason is if you do a file and suspend, then lets say at 69 you get really sick, you have the option to un-suspend and collect all the benefits from FRA. That needs to be measured against what the spouse will receive after death.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Leif »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
ChrisC wrote:I have one wrinkle to this scenario. If one spouse is subject to WEP and GPO and claims retirement benefits at 62, can the other spouse file a restricted application at 66 and receive spousal benefits, and does WEP reduce the spousal benefits?
The WEP reduces the government employee's primary insurance amount (PIA), thereby reducing all benefits based on that person's PIA (i.e., that person's own retirement benefit, a spouse's benefit based on that person's work record, a widow/widower's benefit based on that person's work record, etc.).

Edited to add: But, yes, the other spouse can still file a restricted application for spousal benefits (they'll just be smaller than they'd be if the WEP did not exist).
I didn't know that. Still another reason to weep over WEP.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by dodecahedron »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
richard wrote:I had thought that for one spouse to file and suspend and the other spouse to file a restrictive app to collect spousal benefits, both had to be at FRA. Is this not true?
In order to file a restricted application, you must have reached FRA.
That is a helpful bit of the terminology puzzle for me. So if it is not a "restricted" application, what is the technical term for what I am doing by filing ONLY for my own-earning record benefits at age 62 (and deferring widow's benefits until FRA)?

Edited to add: This article states that widow(er)s CAN file restricted applications prior to FRA. So maybe Oblivious Investor's advice applied strictly to richard's situation (both spouses still living) rather than mine.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Fri Jan 30, 2015 12:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

dodecahedron wrote:Is it correct for me to tell the SSA that I am filing a "restricted" application for my own-record benefits at age 62? Do I need to do this in person at the SSA office or is it safe to do this on-line? (In other words, is there any risk that I will click some button in the on-line process that mysteriously screws up these plans?)
To your first question, yes, if you were speaking to an actual human being and you told them you wanted to restrict your application to just your own retirement benefit, in order to allow your widow's benefit to continue growing until you reach FRA, that person should know exactly what you mean. I've heard from some people that, in order to be super duper careful, they prepared a statement in writing beforehand, in order to reduce the likelihood of 1) accidentally saying the wrong thing when being put on the spot in the office or 2) the SSA employee misunderstanding their request.

As far as applying online, unfortunately, I'm not sure. I haven't seen a screenshot of the process that asks about your intentions in the event that you're eligible for retirement benefits and widow's benefits. (This is contrast to having seen a question that asks about your intentions if you're eligible for retirement benefits and spousal benefits.)
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

dodecahedron wrote:
ObliviousInvestor wrote:
richard wrote:I had thought that for one spouse to file and suspend and the other spouse to file a restrictive app to collect spousal benefits, both had to be at FRA. Is this not true?
In order to file a restricted application, you must have reached FRA.
That is a helpful bit of the terminology puzzle for me. So if it is not a "restricted" application, what is the technical term for what I am doing by filing ONLY for my own-earning record benefits at age 62 (and deferring widow's benefits until FRA)?
Sorry, I should have said in that prior statement, "in order to file a restricted application for spousal benefits you must have reached FRA."
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by dodecahedron »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:Is it correct for me to tell the SSA that I am filing a "restricted" application for my own-record benefits at age 62? Do I need to do this in person at the SSA office or is it safe to do this on-line? (In other words, is there any risk that I will click some button in the on-line process that mysteriously screws up these plans?)
To your first question, yes, if you were speaking to an actual human being and you told them you wanted to restrict your application to just your own retirement benefit, in order to allow your widow's benefit to continue growing until you reach FRA, that person should know exactly what you mean. I've heard from some people that, in order to be super duper careful, they prepared a statement in writing beforehand, in order to reduce the likelihood of 1) accidentally saying the wrong thing when being put on the spot in the office or 2) the SSA employee misunderstanding their request.
That sounds like a really good idea.
As far as applying online, unfortunately, I'm not sure. I haven't seen a screenshot of the process that asks about your intentions in the event that you're eligible for retirement benefits and widow's benefits. (This is contrast to having seen a question that asks about your intentions if you're eligible for retirement benefits and spousal benefits.)
Hmm, now I am feeling tempted to just go through the process (at least part-way) to see what the screens look like and take screenshots. I can't do that until later this year. I can send them to you (redacted) if you like. It is the least I can do for all the generous and helpful advice you have provided on this forum.
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

dodecahedron wrote:
ObliviousInvestor wrote:
dodecahedron wrote:Is it correct for me to tell the SSA that I am filing a "restricted" application for my own-record benefits at age 62? Do I need to do this in person at the SSA office or is it safe to do this on-line? (In other words, is there any risk that I will click some button in the on-line process that mysteriously screws up these plans?)
To your first question, yes, if you were speaking to an actual human being and you told them you wanted to restrict your application to just your own retirement benefit, in order to allow your widow's benefit to continue growing until you reach FRA, that person should know exactly what you mean. I've heard from some people that, in order to be super duper careful, they prepared a statement in writing beforehand, in order to reduce the likelihood of 1) accidentally saying the wrong thing when being put on the spot in the office or 2) the SSA employee misunderstanding their request.
That sounds like a really good idea.
As far as applying online, unfortunately, I'm not sure. I haven't seen a screenshot of the process that asks about your intentions in the event that you're eligible for retirement benefits and widow's benefits. (This is contrast to having seen a question that asks about your intentions if you're eligible for retirement benefits and spousal benefits.)
Hmm, now I am feeling tempted to just go through the process (at least part-way) to see what the screens look like and take screenshots. I can't do that until later this year. I can send them to you (redacted) if you like. It is the least I can do for all the generous and helpful advice you have provided on this forum.
Well, that would be very kind of you, and much appreciated for future Bogleheads discussions. On the other hand, I can't promise that going through an application part-way doesn't cause any problems when you then try to go into the office.

Also, just adding another point:

If you're worried about getting grief from an SSA employee trying to tell you that you cannot do what you're asking to do, you might want to print out the following page and highlight paragraphs D.1 and D.2.b.
https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0200204020
A claimant may choose to limit or restrict the scope of the application to exclude a class of benefits he or she may be eligible to on one or more SSNs for any reason (except where deemed filing applies).
b. Deemed filing rule: A claimant cannot file for reduced [retirement income benefit] or reduced spouse's benefits without filing for the other benefit if eligibility for both benefits exists in the first RIB MOET or the first AUXSPO MOET.
Key point being that you can restrict an application unless the deemed filing rule applies. And the deemed filing rule only applies in cases in which a person is eligible for reduced retirement and spousal benefits.
Mike Piper | Roth is a name, not an acronym. If you type ROTH, you're just yelling about retirement accounts.
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Leif
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Leif »

ObliviousInvestor wrote: The WEP reduces the government employee's primary insurance amount (PIA), thereby reducing all benefits based on that person's PIA (i.e., that person's own retirement benefit, a spouse's benefit based on that person's work record, a widow/widower's benefit based on that person's work record, etc.).

Edited to add: But, yes, the other spouse can still file a restricted application for spousal benefits (they'll just be smaller than they'd be if the WEP did not exist).
What happens if spousal benefits start but the WEP affected spouse has started their SS benefits but not yet begun to take their pension (still working)?
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ObliviousInvestor
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

Leif wrote:
ObliviousInvestor wrote: The WEP reduces the government employee's primary insurance amount (PIA), thereby reducing all benefits based on that person's PIA (i.e., that person's own retirement benefit, a spouse's benefit based on that person's work record, a widow/widower's benefit based on that person's work record, etc.).

Edited to add: But, yes, the other spouse can still file a restricted application for spousal benefits (they'll just be smaller than they'd be if the WEP did not exist).
What happens if spousal benefits start but the WEP affected spouse has started their SS benefits but not yet begun to take their pension (still working)?
The following comes from CFR 404.213 (though the bolding is mine, and I've reworded the part in brackets). I'd encourage you to read the whole section.
§ 404.213. Computation where you are eligible for a pension based on your noncovered employment.

(a) When applicable. Except as provided in paragraph (d) of this section, we will modify [the primary insurance amount formula] in the following situations:
(1) You become eligible for old-age insurance benefits after 1985; or
(2) You become eligible for disability insurance benefits after 1985; and
(3) For the same months after 1985 that you are entitled to old-age or disability benefits, you are also entitled to a monthly pension(s) for which you first became eligible after 1985 based in whole or part on your earnings in employment which was not covered under Social Security. We consider you to first become eligible for a monthly pension in the first month for which you met all requirements for the pension except that you were working or had not yet applied.
Mike Piper | Roth is a name, not an acronym. If you type ROTH, you're just yelling about retirement accounts.
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dodecahedron
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by dodecahedron »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:
If you're worried about getting grief from an SSA employee trying to tell you that you cannot do what you're asking to do, you might want to print out the following page and highlight paragraphs D.1 and D.2.b.
https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0200204020
A claimant may choose to limit or restrict the scope of the application to exclude a class of benefits he or she may be eligible to on one or more SSNs for any reason (except where deemed filing applies).
b. Deemed filing rule: A claimant cannot file for reduced [retirement income benefit] or reduced spouse's benefits without filing for the other benefit if eligibility for both benefits exists in the first RIB MOET or the first AUXSPO MOET.
Key point being that you can restrict an application unless the deemed filing rule applies. And the deemed filing rule only applies in cases in which a person is eligible for reduced retirement and spousal benefits.
Thanks--this is a super helpful reference I will bookmark for reference later this year! I will say that when I applied (over the phone) for the $255 one-time death benefit the year before last, the SS employee I talked to on the phone seemed VERY surprised that I was not also applying for widow benefits at that time (given that I was age 60). I got the distinct impression that he was not used to surviving spouses who were old enough to collect on their late spouse's records deferring filing for those benefits to FRA.
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Leif
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by Leif »

ObliviousInvestor wrote: We consider you to first become eligible for a monthly pension in the first month for which you met all requirements for the pension except that you were working or had not yet applied.
That is interesting. I wonder how they (SS Administration) calculate that? A pension benefit is not only difficult to determine, but also a moving target. It depends on age, years of service, and salary (averaged over 3 years) and other compensation (final vacation time, sick time). Not easy to calculate.
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ObliviousInvestor
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Re: I just filed a Restrictive App at the SS office

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

Leif wrote:
ObliviousInvestor wrote: We consider you to first become eligible for a monthly pension in the first month for which you met all requirements for the pension except that you were working or had not yet applied.
That is interesting. I wonder how they (SS Administration) calculate that? A pension benefit is not only difficult to determine, but also a moving target. It depends on age, years of service, and salary (averaged over 3 years) and other compensation (final vacation time, sick time). Not easy to calculate.
There's a bit of information about their procedures here:
https://secure.ssa.gov/poms.nsf/lnx/0202608100#c

It appears that the SSA does not actually calculate a person's pension, per se, for the sake of applying the GPO. But rather they rely on either the person's own reporting of the amount (via SSA form 3885) or contacting the employer.
Mike Piper | Roth is a name, not an acronym. If you type ROTH, you're just yelling about retirement accounts.
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