Helping out family members
Helping out family members
So I have a family member that has made it clear and public to the rest of the family that they are going through financial trouble. They're concerned about being evicted from their apartment and not being able to meet their bills.
This family member has asked other family members for financial assistance, with varying levels of cooperation. They haven't asked me yet though.
Now I'm somewhat torn. Should I reach out to this family member and offer assistance?
Factors to consider:
1. I'm not rich myself. I'm an accumulator early on in life, and due to student loans my net worth is currently negative
2. However, I do have a pretty solid monthly cash flow. It wouldn't be difficult to redirect money that is currently going to paying down loans and building savings to help my family out
3. This family member and I don't see eye to eye on a lot. In the past this person has been very cruel to me, and although our relationship is mending right now, the years of cruelty aren't something I've forgotten
Help me out here. What other factors should I be considering? What factors would you consider, or did you considered if you've been in similar situations?
This family member has asked other family members for financial assistance, with varying levels of cooperation. They haven't asked me yet though.
Now I'm somewhat torn. Should I reach out to this family member and offer assistance?
Factors to consider:
1. I'm not rich myself. I'm an accumulator early on in life, and due to student loans my net worth is currently negative
2. However, I do have a pretty solid monthly cash flow. It wouldn't be difficult to redirect money that is currently going to paying down loans and building savings to help my family out
3. This family member and I don't see eye to eye on a lot. In the past this person has been very cruel to me, and although our relationship is mending right now, the years of cruelty aren't something I've forgotten
Help me out here. What other factors should I be considering? What factors would you consider, or did you considered if you've been in similar situations?
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Re: Helping out family members
I usually help family members, my parents, my disabled sister, and other family members. I place family members before any charities.
If I were you, I would need to know what caused their financial problem(s). The level of assistance would depend upon how close they are to you. (You said the relationship has not been good. I would provide minimal assistance only if asked directly.)
If I were you, I would need to know what caused their financial problem(s). The level of assistance would depend upon how close they are to you. (You said the relationship has not been good. I would provide minimal assistance only if asked directly.)
Re: Helping out family members
Helping someone that has been cruel to me in the past would be WAAAY down on my list of priorities. I certainly wouldn't volunteer to do it. OTOH, if you want to mend fences and they come to you hat in hand then you might consider it, providing they have a plan and are not just going to keep on making the same mistakes. Just consider whatever you decide to give them as a gift, and of course do not co sign for anything. While not everyones cup of tea, you could consider putting them through Dave Ramsey's FPU.
Mike
Mike
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Re: Helping out family members
Me too. I'd be a lot more sympathetic if it was something beyond their control than if they had mismanaged or squandered their money.flyingaway wrote: ...If I were you, I would need to know what caused their financial problem(s)....
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.
Re: Helping out family members
I learned this from my father... who passed the wisdom on to me many years after I finally repaid him (with zero interest, having never been asked for it, and having taken far too long to repay)... give to your family, do not loan.
I will not comment or attempt to assist you in the decision to give or not in itself, there's just too much I don't know, and who am I to say anyway?
I will say this... if you decide to help this family member out financially, do so freely and without expectation of repayment. Do NOT let it change anything in your relationship (good or bad). It is only money, it is not family, treat it as such. Never expect repayment, never ask for it, nothing. Give, forgive, forget.
Cheers,
Packet
I will not comment or attempt to assist you in the decision to give or not in itself, there's just too much I don't know, and who am I to say anyway?
I will say this... if you decide to help this family member out financially, do so freely and without expectation of repayment. Do NOT let it change anything in your relationship (good or bad). It is only money, it is not family, treat it as such. Never expect repayment, never ask for it, nothing. Give, forgive, forget.
Cheers,
Packet
First round’s on me.
Re: Helping out family members
what does family member mean?
wife, mother, cousin, maid?
wife, mother, cousin, maid?
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Re: Helping out family members
cheese_breath wrote:Me too. I'd be a lot more sympathetic if it was something beyond their control than if they had mismanaged or squandered their money.flyingaway wrote: ...If I were you, I would need to know what caused their financial problem(s)....
Same here, but I still probably wouldn't help if they have been cruel to me in the past. I do hold grudges, but I hear it's better if you don't...
Re: Helping out family members
Cruelty followed by a request for money - hmmmmmm.....
Follow your gut and your brain.
It sounds like you already have.
Suspicious timing for mending fences, but I may be a bit on the paranoid side, in a good way, hopefully.
By the way you worded the OP, I am thinking that you are not comfortable with this. You earned it and you saved it and a cruel person wants a piece of it.
From the very limited facts, and knowing that you are net worth negative, I would strongly support not going there.
But I'm just an anonymous internet poster who hasn't been on the fishing trips, the help with moving family members, taking care of elders, etc. So many other potential variables to consider.
As said above, give without expectation of repayment, but I would ask for their best efforts to do so.
But if i had to make a decision on only the information provided, I wouldn't go there - just future fodder. No good deed goes unpunished.
Follow your gut and your brain.
It sounds like you already have.
Suspicious timing for mending fences, but I may be a bit on the paranoid side, in a good way, hopefully.
By the way you worded the OP, I am thinking that you are not comfortable with this. You earned it and you saved it and a cruel person wants a piece of it.
From the very limited facts, and knowing that you are net worth negative, I would strongly support not going there.
But I'm just an anonymous internet poster who hasn't been on the fishing trips, the help with moving family members, taking care of elders, etc. So many other potential variables to consider.
As said above, give without expectation of repayment, but I would ask for their best efforts to do so.
But if i had to make a decision on only the information provided, I wouldn't go there - just future fodder. No good deed goes unpunished.
Last edited by LowER on Mon Dec 15, 2014 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Helping out family members
1. You need to forgive (not necessarily forget) past cruelty. You say the relationship is on the mend. Good!
2. You have not been asked for money. Part of me says - great - don't offer any help unless asked and let it be. Sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. Consider helping only if asked directly.
3. If you are asked - cheerfully give an amount of money you are comfortable with - even if it's only $100.00. Explain it's all you can afford.
If your enemies are hungry, give them food to eat.
If they are thirsty, give them water to drink.
You will heap burning coals of shame on their heads,
And (you) will (be rewarded).
Edited to not offend or break any rules around here.
2. You have not been asked for money. Part of me says - great - don't offer any help unless asked and let it be. Sometimes no good deed goes unpunished. Consider helping only if asked directly.
3. If you are asked - cheerfully give an amount of money you are comfortable with - even if it's only $100.00. Explain it's all you can afford.
If your enemies are hungry, give them food to eat.
If they are thirsty, give them water to drink.
You will heap burning coals of shame on their heads,
And (you) will (be rewarded).
Edited to not offend or break any rules around here.
Re: Helping out family members
$100 is hardly "only" for somebody still paying down student loan debt, though (heck, I'm not paying down debt and it's not "only" to me). And in my experience, cruel people, especially those with belief in their own entitlement, are as likely to be angry at being insufficiently given to as to feel anything close to even tepid coals of shame.Atilla wrote: 3. If you are asked - cheerfully give an amount of money you are comfortable with - even if it's only $100.00. Explain it's all you can afford.
Not saying the OP shouldn't do it--that's a big "it depends" by me--but I wouldn't expect changed behavior from the recipient, and I'd be open to the possibility that the change may be for the worse as they try to prove that the money doesn't control them.
Re: Helping out family members
Based on Factor Number Three.
Thanks shipmate Toto for the good question. Based on factor number three I would wait until personally asked by this family member before I pinch my nose and provide minimum assistance. Oh by the way, on a personal note, I do not let any family member "borrow" my money, I give it to them without any conditions and move on.
Thanks shipmate Toto for the good question. Based on factor number three I would wait until personally asked by this family member before I pinch my nose and provide minimum assistance. Oh by the way, on a personal note, I do not let any family member "borrow" my money, I give it to them without any conditions and move on.
~ Member of the Active Retired Force since 2014 ~
Re: Helping out family members
You sound like a compassionate and caring person to consider helping someone who has been cruel to you in the past.
I guess I would want to know how this person came to this trouble? Otherwise you may be throwing good money after bad, and just postponing the inevitable.
If you are asked for help, and if you decide to help, then do it whatever you feel comfortable doing. If you don't want to give this person money directly, how about a gift card for a grocery store so that they will have enough to eat? Just a thought.
I guess I would want to know how this person came to this trouble? Otherwise you may be throwing good money after bad, and just postponing the inevitable.
If you are asked for help, and if you decide to help, then do it whatever you feel comfortable doing. If you don't want to give this person money directly, how about a gift card for a grocery store so that they will have enough to eat? Just a thought.
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Re: Helping out family members
From the cryptic way your OP is written, I would run from the opportunity.
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Re: Helping out family members
Sorry to hear of the relative's financial trouble. I am also sorry to hear the relative was cruel to you. I agree with the wisdom of previous posters who recommended:
- if you do give anything, do not expect that it will be repaid. You could go in with the mindset that it is essentially a monetary gift instead of a loan. If they do repay you, consider that an act of karma and a positive step towards your slow relationship healing.
- also, consider the reasons contributing to their financial trouble, as others have stated. Is it due to misfortune, or lack of responsibility, or a sense of entitlement in other areas (are they buying fancy ___ instead of ensuring they save for rent)? I've seen all 3 of these reasons in my extended family. While the first is difficult to bear witness to, if you give to someone and either of the latter two reasons apply, then you could be enabling that person.
- i recommend not proactively offering since they haven't asked you, but having your decision made and being ready to communicate it if they ask you.
- know that it is possible that if you give a certain amount, the person may or may not be appreciative. I've given before an amount that was a lot given my financial situation at the time, only to have it belittled because the person expected more. It crushed my feelings of generosity. But that was me, and was a younger version of me. It may not bother you, but I offer that as consideration.
- also , If you have some quiet time, you could reflect a bit on the emotions and principles at play. Are there undertones of guilt or shame at play in your family dynamics if you don't offer? If this person has been cruel in the past, I might consider whether they tend to be manipulative and have a sense of entitlement. I'd have no way of knowing the details and dynamics from your posting, so I'm merely suggesting that you have choices without needing to feel guilt. I've experienced dynamics that I describe in the past and have learned the hard way that some people will take advantage of me. I personally often use prayer to try to obtain an answer from "the universe" and/or pray that the universe takes care of this person.
Best of luck to you!
- if you do give anything, do not expect that it will be repaid. You could go in with the mindset that it is essentially a monetary gift instead of a loan. If they do repay you, consider that an act of karma and a positive step towards your slow relationship healing.
- also, consider the reasons contributing to their financial trouble, as others have stated. Is it due to misfortune, or lack of responsibility, or a sense of entitlement in other areas (are they buying fancy ___ instead of ensuring they save for rent)? I've seen all 3 of these reasons in my extended family. While the first is difficult to bear witness to, if you give to someone and either of the latter two reasons apply, then you could be enabling that person.
- i recommend not proactively offering since they haven't asked you, but having your decision made and being ready to communicate it if they ask you.
- know that it is possible that if you give a certain amount, the person may or may not be appreciative. I've given before an amount that was a lot given my financial situation at the time, only to have it belittled because the person expected more. It crushed my feelings of generosity. But that was me, and was a younger version of me. It may not bother you, but I offer that as consideration.
- also , If you have some quiet time, you could reflect a bit on the emotions and principles at play. Are there undertones of guilt or shame at play in your family dynamics if you don't offer? If this person has been cruel in the past, I might consider whether they tend to be manipulative and have a sense of entitlement. I'd have no way of knowing the details and dynamics from your posting, so I'm merely suggesting that you have choices without needing to feel guilt. I've experienced dynamics that I describe in the past and have learned the hard way that some people will take advantage of me. I personally often use prayer to try to obtain an answer from "the universe" and/or pray that the universe takes care of this person.
Best of luck to you!
My username is what I try daily to be.
Re: Helping out family members
Agree strongly with others suggesting you consider it a no strings gift.
Forgiveness is good for the soul. It is not the same as forgetting.
You would not be taking this money out of net savings because you don't as yet have any. Therefore, since you would be using other funds that would otherwise go toward debt retirement, what you propose has exactly the same effect as if you borrowed money to transfer to your relative. Would you actually do that?
Just some random thoughts.
Forgiveness is good for the soul. It is not the same as forgetting.
You would not be taking this money out of net savings because you don't as yet have any. Therefore, since you would be using other funds that would otherwise go toward debt retirement, what you propose has exactly the same effect as if you borrowed money to transfer to your relative. Would you actually do that?
Just some random thoughts.
Re: Helping out family members
I'm not sure that I'd reach out at least yet. Think about what you would say if asked for assistance. If you're sure you'd say yes and some time has gone by, then perhaps reach out. Obviously you probably have an idea as to what lead to this situation; I'd want to know I wasn't just throwing money down the drain, especially if the feelings between you aren't the best.
Re: Helping out family members
Even though you have not yet been "asked" or "approached", I think you are very wise to be prepared, either for a direct request or (perhaps more likely) a request by other family members to also "participate". In my opinion, there is no perfect answer - but some approaches may be better or worse than others. These are some things I would consider (BUT I am certainly no expert):toto238 wrote:So I have a family member that has made it clear and public to the rest of the family that they are going through financial trouble. They're concerned about being evicted from their apartment and not being able to meet their bills.
This family member has asked other family members for financial assistance, with varying levels of cooperation. They haven't asked me yet though.
Now I'm somewhat torn. Should I reach out to this family member and offer assistance?
Factors to consider:
1. I'm not rich myself. I'm an accumulator early on in life, and due to student loans my net worth is currently negative
2. However, I do have a pretty solid monthly cash flow. It wouldn't be difficult to redirect money that is currently going to paying down loans and building savings to help my family out
3. This family member and I don't see eye to eye on a lot. In the past this person has been very cruel to me, and although our relationship is mending right now, the years of cruelty aren't something I've forgotten
Help me out here. What other factors should I be considering? What factors would you consider, or did you considered if you've been in similar situations?
1. Even though it may be very relevant, I would not cite or quote past behavior (or differences of opinion) of this relative towards you as a reason to decline to assist.
2. To the extent possible, if there are thing(s) you could and/or would do, focus on what you can do more than what you cannot do.
3. If you "participate" - avoid longer term entanglements (such as cosigning a lease) - rather help that is perhaps one-time (part of security deposit on apartment, perhaps).
4. Since you have "negative" net worth - take that into account in what you might do. It would be OK, perhaps, to say something like, "Due to several obligations, I am only able to do xxxx."
5. If there are children involved, I would lean towards things that help them.
Good Luck and best wishes.
Re: Helping out family members
One more thought. Is this person a reliable reporter? Or are they likely to talk up a disaster when the reality is simply that their discretionary spending has been cut?toto238 wrote:So I have a family member that has made it clear and public to the rest of the family that they are going through financial trouble. They're concerned about being evicted from their apartment and not being able to meet their bills.
Re: Helping out family members
There is an old saying: put on your own life vest first before trying to save others. Having a solid monthly cash flow does not necessarily mean you have money to spare, particularly when you have a negative net worth due to non-dischargeable debt like student loans. It would only take one emergency that impairs your ability to earn that monthly income to put you in a bad situation yourself. So first you need to make sure your financial future is secure by building up savings and paying down debt. Don't let guilt make you make a poor decision that would jeopardize you. (side note: I'll admit it took me a while to take this advice myself, so if you still feel you must provide help, see the next paragraph)toto238 wrote:1. I'm not rich myself. I'm an accumulator early on in life, and due to student loans my net worth is currently negative
2. However, I do have a pretty solid monthly cash flow. It wouldn't be difficult to redirect money that is currently going to paying down loans and building savings to help my family out
3. This family member and I don't see eye to eye on a lot. In the past this person has been very cruel to me, and although our relationship is mending right now, the years of cruelty aren't something I've forgotten
Second, could you provide non-monetary or low-cost monetary support to the family member? I have a rule when my family members come to me asking for money. I do not give cash directly to my family members. I'll let them stay in my guest room or on my couch. I'll drive them to doctor's appointments or to run other errands if they can't afford to fix their car. I'll make big meals and invite them over for a good home-cooked meal. If I do provide monetary support, it is by paying service providers directly (e.g. paying a plumber to come fix the pipes or paying the utility company directly) or by buying something (e.g. bags of groceries or a new hot water heater). I do this because my family is exceedingly poor with handling money. I can provide a greater impact through non-monetary support or paying service providers directly than I could by handing them cash.
Re: Helping out family members
I would say no, based on the "cruelty" comment.
"The two most important days in someone's life are the day that they are born and the day they discover why." -John Maxwell
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Re: Helping out family members
He who gives unasked, gives twice.
I think it's time for a generous Holiday present.
I think it's time for a generous Holiday present.
Re: Helping out family members
This is a really important point here I hadn't considered. By giving money away to others, it does have the same effect as if I borrowed money to give to them. And no, I wouldn't borrow money so I could lend it to a family member.musbane wrote:Agree strongly with others suggesting you consider it a no strings gift.
Forgiveness is good for the soul. It is not the same as forgetting.
You would not be taking this money out of net savings because you don't as yet have any. Therefore, since you would be using other funds that would otherwise go toward debt retirement, what you propose has exactly the same effect as if you borrowed money to transfer to your relative. Would you actually do that?
Just some random thoughts.
This is entirely possible. This family member isn't known for being completely honest, and they could be playing up a dramatic story. That being said, I live 2000+ miles away and have no way of verifying whether they are actually telling the truth about anything.fposte wrote:One more thought. Is this person a reliable reporter? Or are they likely to talk up a disaster when the reality is simply that their discretionary spending has been cut?toto238 wrote:So I have a family member that has made it clear and public to the rest of the family that they are going through financial trouble. They're concerned about being evicted from their apartment and not being able to meet their bills.
It's not that they lost money, per se, but that they never had it in the first place. They graduated college with some student debt (not nearly as much as me though) and recently finished a graduate degree (I don't know if they had to borrow for this but I imagine they did). They didn't find work in their field even after the grad degree though. They recently got married, and their wedding expenses are probably weighing pretty heavily on them now. Their spouse is a police officer though, earning a steady income, however apparently not enough to handle rent + loans + living expenses.JDDS wrote:I'm not sure that I'd reach out at least yet. Think about what you would say if asked for assistance. If you're sure you'd say yes and some time has gone by, then perhaps reach out. Obviously you probably have an idea as to what lead to this situation; I'd want to know I wasn't just throwing money down the drain, especially if the feelings between you aren't the best.
I would consider it as a gift as well, if I choose to give. What's with the nautical reference?cfs wrote:Based on Factor Number Three.
Thanks shipmate Toto for the good question. Based on factor number three I would wait until personally asked by this family member before I pinch my nose and provide minimum assistance. Oh by the way, on a personal note, I do not let any family member "borrow" my money, I give it to them without any conditions and move on.
The family member is a sibling, 3 years older than me.wilked wrote:what does family member mean?
wife, mother, cousin, maid?
Re: Helping out family members
So your relative went and spent money s/he didn't have for a wedding, has a graduate degree and is married to someone with a good steady paying job with benefits, and they still can't pay their bills?
It seems likely that they don't have a money problem; they have a spending problem. Sadly, I think you would be throwing good money after bad, made worse by the fact that it's money you yourself don't have to give anyway. You probably can't save them from themselves.
It seems likely that they don't have a money problem; they have a spending problem. Sadly, I think you would be throwing good money after bad, made worse by the fact that it's money you yourself don't have to give anyway. You probably can't save them from themselves.
Carpe Diem.
Re: Helping out family members
Even if they are not working in their field, it sounds like they both have some sort of job even if the other one is not a high paying one.They graduated college with some student debt (not nearly as much as me though) and recently finished a graduate degree (I don't know if they had to borrow for this but I imagine they did). They didn't find work in their field even after the grad degree though. They recently got married, and their wedding expenses are probably weighing pretty heavily on them now. Their spouse is a police officer though, earning a steady income, however apparently not enough to handle rent + loans + living expenses.
If rent is their priority then they can come up with the money. It might mean selling cars,moving to an inexpensive apartment, getting rid of cell phones and cable TV etc. but it is hard to see how they could become homeless with two incomes.
It does not sound like they have had some sort of medical crisis or anything like that. In addition to their two incomes I don't see how anyone that is not wealthy could give them enough to make a difference.
That said, if you have any nieces or nephews helping them out in a some very small way to help them have a financial roll model so that might have a clue that financial chaos is not normal.
Re: Helping out family members
One thing to note is that they did have an apartment fire a month before their wedding, which destroyed much of their property. But they did have insurance, and my understanding is that this isn't the cause of their financial hardship.
My family member doesn't have a regular paying job, per se, but they have written a few short novels that seem to be selling decently online. But at most they're making a couple hundred a month from book sales. They spend all their time either writing, or promoting their writing.
My family member doesn't have a regular paying job, per se, but they have written a few short novels that seem to be selling decently online. But at most they're making a couple hundred a month from book sales. They spend all their time either writing, or promoting their writing.
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Re: Helping out family members
From the wikipedia article on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C4%81na,
Living creatures get influenced through daanam,
Enemies lose hostility through daanam,
A stranger may become a loved one through daanam,
Vices are killed by daanam.
—A Hindu proverb.
Living creatures get influenced through daanam,
Enemies lose hostility through daanam,
A stranger may become a loved one through daanam,
Vices are killed by daanam.
—A Hindu proverb.
Re: Helping out family members
If your sibling didn't ask you for money or tell you directly, then who did? A parent or other relative who is reaching out to others to fundraise on your sibling's behalf?
Re: Helping out family members
Throwing cash at their mistakes will only encourage more mistakes. Offer to pay for their bankruptcy. Sounds like they need a fresh start.
Re: Helping out family members
No one has asked me yet. But the family keeps mentioning it whenever I speak with them. Some of them told this family member "absolutely not". Apparently this person lashed out at my father for choosing to take a trip to visit me instead of using that money to help them out. Apparently other family members have helped them out financially though.island wrote:If your sibling didn't ask you for money or tell you directly, then who did? A parent or other relative who is reaching out to others to fundraise on your sibling's behalf?
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Re: Helping out family members
I advise not offering any financial assistance. The sibling is married and the spouse has a job. If they are having trouble meeting their financial obligations then they ought to downsize. I think the OP needs to be careful. If assistance if offered this will not be a one and done deal. Every time the sibling needs money they will ask the OP.
Re: Helping out family members
The nautical references are a Vanguard and Boglehead thing. You'll notice Vanguard has a nautical theme: their icon is a ship and there are nautical themes to the product line, e.g. Flagship status, Admiral shares, etc. That's because the company was named after a ship. Since Vanguard was founded by Bogle and Bogleheads are named after Bogle, the nautical theme continues here. Notice that the icon for the forum at the upper left of the screen is a stylized nautical compass.toto238 wrote:What's with the nautical reference?
Re: Helping out family members
Why so cryptic about who's who? The relative who is lashing out is more distant than you and your sibling's own parent? That's bizarre.toto238 wrote:No one has asked me yet. But the family keeps mentioning it whenever I speak with them. Some of them told this family member "absolutely not". Apparently this person lashed out at my father for choosing to take a trip to visit me instead of using that money to help them out. Apparently other family members have helped them out financially though.island wrote:If your sibling didn't ask you for money or tell you directly, then who did? A parent or other relative who is reaching out to others to fundraise on your sibling's behalf?
If own father has the means and a good relationship with your sibling and still doesn't feel the need to bail them out then I'd be hesitant to do the same. A small gift perhaps, but certainly a one time thing.
Sounds more like a couple living way beyond their means and making stupid choices rather than a hardship case. Feed that and where does it end? They should pare down to the bare essentials, get a cheaper apt if necessary, consider bankruptcy and for the one who isn't working, get a job!
Re: Helping out family members
Seems like your sibling is still in their 20s or early 30s and if they're only making a couple hundred bucks monthly, then writing is merely a hobby. They need to get a job that pays bills and affords them the lifestyle they choose. The same problem is destined to repeat itself. This rough patch will give them character and will be better off without enabling with cash bailout
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Re: Helping out family members
I helped out an older sibling when still in grad school with a negative net worth.
He had helped me out when I had needed it, and I gave what I could gladly.
In the situation you are in, I would not give anything.
You may also want to reconsider your relationship with the family member who is
berating your dad. (Of course this may be complicated if it was his ex-wife or his parent,
which would make them either your mom or grandparent.)
He had helped me out when I had needed it, and I gave what I could gladly.
In the situation you are in, I would not give anything.
You may also want to reconsider your relationship with the family member who is
berating your dad. (Of course this may be complicated if it was his ex-wife or his parent,
which would make them either your mom or grandparent.)
Re: Helping out family members
I probably didn't write it very clearly. It is my sibling, the one in financial need, that got mad at my Dad for visiting me instead of lending them money. This incident made me a bit more wary of loaning anything to them. It seems to indicate a sense of entitlement that our dad is somehow required to lend them money before he's allowed to take his wife and kids on a trip to visit me.
I'm not trying to be cryptic, but I am trying to remove gender from the discussion in the hopes that it doesn't create a stereotype either way.
I'm not trying to be cryptic, but I am trying to remove gender from the discussion in the hopes that it doesn't create a stereotype either way.
Re: Helping out family members
I was somewhat aware of some nautical themes for Vanguard. Didn't know it extended to Bogleheads. I learn something new every day!Mudpuppy wrote:The nautical references are a Vanguard and Boglehead thing. You'll notice Vanguard has a nautical theme: their icon is a ship and there are nautical themes to the product line, e.g. Flagship status, Admiral shares, etc. That's because the company was named after a ship. Since Vanguard was founded by Bogle and Bogleheads are named after Bogle, the nautical theme continues here. Notice that the icon for the forum at the upper left of the screen is a stylized nautical compass.toto238 wrote:What's with the nautical reference?
Re: Helping out family members
Blood is thicker than water!
It is your sibling! Help as much as you can.
Few hundreds dollars gift card or cash.
You will feel rewarded sooner than later.
I doubt this will change your financial outlook much, but may make life change for your sibling!
It is your sibling! Help as much as you can.
Few hundreds dollars gift card or cash.
You will feel rewarded sooner than later.
I doubt this will change your financial outlook much, but may make life change for your sibling!
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So I have a family member that has made it clear and public to the rest of the family that they are going through financial trouble. They're concerned about being evicted from their apartment and not being able to meet their bills.
No one has asked me yet. But the family keeps mentioning it whenever I speak with them. Some of them told this family member "absolutely not". Apparently this person lashed out at my father for choosing to take a trip to visit me instead of using that money to help them out. Apparently other family members have helped them out financially though.
Since you asked ---Help me out here. What other factors should I be considering? What factors would you consider, or did you considered if you've been in similar situations?
If I was feeling pressured, I'd be very wary of giving in to perceived demands (or hints) and try to find another way to handle the situation. For instance, instead of solving your sibling's money problem, listening with empathy to the family member who keeps bringing this up might be all that's really needed from you. Wouldn't that be nice? Or you could try asking them point blank why they keep bringing it up, and see where that goes.
Also, I wouldn't assume that handing over money will actually prevent the eviction; it may not be enough money, or there may be other factors you don't know about.
Personally, I'd spend a fair amount of time thinking about what I hoped to gain by giving my sibling this gift. If my expectation was for anything more than the immediate satisfaction of giving a gift and perhaps a sincere "thank-you," I wouldn't do it. It's not worth the potential disappointment, regret, resentment, or other hard feelings down the line.
Best of luck with your decision.
Last edited by barefootjan on Tue Feb 16, 2021 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Helping out family members
In my family experience, there are a lot of ways this can go badly, even if it works. In another family I know of a few loans between sibings that were repaid slowly, and a lot of resentment on both sides came from that. Both the lender and the borrower came to resent the other. In another case, the loan will likely be eventually repaid, but the lender resented both the borrower and another sibling who wasn't part of the transaction. The borrower decided as their situation improved to spend other money on vacations and possessions instead of paying back the loan early. The lender resented that deeply, if they have so much money now why not pay us back (possibly because interest was nominal - but it wasn't a business loan it was a family assistance). Meanwhile a different sibling who didn't lend money made some very favorable investments, and the sibling waiting for loan payback resented not being able to participate because of the outstanding loan - but now has hard feelings not just toward the borrower, but the other sibling as well. What a mess. And these are all loans that were, or are very likely to be repaid. I can hardly imagine the complications if not paid back.
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Re: Helping out family members
I agree with Packet above who wrote that you give money, you don't loan it. For family or even a friend I give money with zero expectations of getting it back. The only stipulation I have is that the person who needs the money approaches me and asks for the money. That does not mean I will give the money in all cases (I normally do) but when I do give the money it is given without conditions.
Although I'm FI, I don't consider myself wealthy. I made the right choices in life but some people don't. It's not for me to judge. I give what money I can free and clear.
Although I'm FI, I don't consider myself wealthy. I made the right choices in life but some people don't. It's not for me to judge. I give what money I can free and clear.
John Guild
Re: Helping out family members
Gender has nothing to do with it, but I agree it sounds like there is a sense of entitlement...big time. I can't imagine asking my dad ( or anyone) to bail me out of a financial mess and have the nerve to get ticked off because he's spending some of his own money to visit one of his other children. Very selfish. Much sibling rivalry when you were growing up?toto238 wrote:I probably didn't write it very clearly. It is my sibling, the one in financial need, that got mad at my Dad for visiting me instead of lending them money. This incident made me a bit more wary of loaning anything to them. It seems to indicate a sense of entitlement that our dad is somehow required to lend them money before he's allowed to take his wife and kids on a trip to visit me.
I'm not trying to be cryptic, but I am trying to remove gender from the discussion in the hopes that it doesn't create a stereotype either way.
Re: Helping out family members
You cannot help any person if you don't know what went wrong with one's finance. Until s/he explains her/his situation and plan to get out of the trouble, you shouldn't rush to help him.
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Re: Helping out family members
Really? So before you donate to charity or volunteer at a soup kitchen you demand a proper accounting of the recipient's inflows/outflows before rendering any help? While it might be nice to get a clear financial picture sometimes family members just need immediate help and lectures later (or never). That said, it sounds like the OP should not go out of his way to volunteer to give as the sibling is showing signs of entitlement which is never a good base when asking for help. I agree with the poster that suggests that OP gives unprompted she will consider him to be another potential source of income. If he finds out the sister is really in dire straights, he might consider an anonymous gift.wander wrote:You cannot help any person if you don't know what went wrong with one's finance. Until s/he explains her/his situation and plan to get out of the trouble, you shouldn't rush to help him.
Re: Helping out family members
Your net worth is negative and in the past this family member has been cruel to you. No, you should not make financial sacrifices for this family member.toto238 wrote: 1. I'm not rich myself. I'm an accumulator early on in life, and due to student loans my net worth is currently negative
2. However, I do have a pretty solid monthly cash flow. It wouldn't be difficult to redirect money that is currently going to paying down loans and building savings to help my family out
3. This family member and I don't see eye to eye on a lot. In the past this person has been very cruel to me, and although our relationship is mending right now, the years of cruelty aren't something I've forgotten
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Re: Helping out family members
Blood is blood.
That being said, I give hand ups not hand outs.
If I am going to be helping, I am going to decide how I am helping. I would expect to see a budget and where the shortfall is and help them get beyond the point that they need help. If they have a good plan and stick to it and things are happening that are out of their control, I will definitely help.
If they weren't willing to meet halfway and let me give them the "hand up" then they aren't really in the predicament they claim to be in.
It has been my experience with helping family that those that "need" help don't really "want" help. They want an Iphone 6 or a vacation to Bermuda or something.
That being said, I give hand ups not hand outs.
If I am going to be helping, I am going to decide how I am helping. I would expect to see a budget and where the shortfall is and help them get beyond the point that they need help. If they have a good plan and stick to it and things are happening that are out of their control, I will definitely help.
If they weren't willing to meet halfway and let me give them the "hand up" then they aren't really in the predicament they claim to be in.
It has been my experience with helping family that those that "need" help don't really "want" help. They want an Iphone 6 or a vacation to Bermuda or something.
Re: Helping out family members
Yes, really. But it's my opinion. Can a doctor give you any medicine simply because you ask him to give you something without diagnosing? This is a family member, you want him/her better and you care. Don't give now doesn't mean will not give. If he is a drug addict, your money will be wasted.2stepsbehind wrote:Really?wander wrote:You cannot help any person if you don't know what went wrong with one's finance. Until s/he explains her/his situation and plan to get out of the trouble, you shouldn't rush to help him.
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Re: Helping out family members
I have always assumed that this is what people do before giving anything other than spare change to an organization that they aren't already quite familiar with. Or am I once again falling into the fallacy of "I always do this, so it must be what everyone does?"2stepsbehind wrote:Really? So before you donate to charity or volunteer at a soup kitchen you demand a proper accounting of the recipient's inflows/outflows before rendering any help? .... .wander wrote:You cannot help any person if you don't know what went wrong with one's finance. Until s/he explains her/his situation and plan to get out of the trouble, you shouldn't rush to help him.
Our personal blog (no ads) of why we saved/invested: https://www.lisajtravels.com/
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Re: Helping out family members
There is a difference to consider. I would give $200 without any questions asked. But when they need $1000, then I would ask for an explanation how that financial mess happened, and why he does not take temporarily a minimum wage job, etc.
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Re: Helping out family members
toto238 wrote:I probably didn't write it very clearly. It is my sibling, the one in financial need, that got mad at my Dad for visiting me instead of lending them money. This incident made me a bit more wary of loaning anything to them. It seems to indicate a sense of entitlement that our dad is somehow required to lend them money before he's allowed to take his wife and kids on a trip to visit me.
I'm not trying to be cryptic, but I am trying to remove gender from the discussion in the hopes that it doesn't create a stereotype either way.
Given that it is the sibling that was berating your dad
I would double down on my previous comment.
Is the sibling going to berate you if you don't give
what is expected?
This is emotional blackmail.
The sibling should get a job and write on the side
if the income is needed to support the family.
I worked as a janitor for a few months while
in grad school to save for my wedding, and my wife
worked two jobs. No debt from wedding except
$300 for rings.
Later on when a business my wife founded went bankrupt
she took out a loan and worked as a maid to make
sure that her employees and creditors were paid.
People get jobs to pay bills, they can as well.
Re: Helping out family members
I have probably a wholly non-unique perspective on this, but I haven't seen it posted here yet so here goes.
Once upon a time, there was a Boglehead and his SO. They came from very different families, one who had a kind and loving family and one who did not. Boglehead loved his sibling who was responsible, but in school, married, with a kid, and was poor as can be. The Boglehead helped him whenever possible because he loved his sibling that was doing the responsible thing and building a better life for his family.
The SO loved her family, but they did not love her back. This family said and performed many cruel and shameful acts while hiding behind a wide variety of rationales. One day, that family came upon hard times and started to hit up family members for money and help, including the SO. The SO claimed she had no funds or ability to help with her current busy schedule in school, and dodged the normal wrath and vitriol that typically was part of any response the family gave.
While this is obviously somewhat dramatized, and no one is perfect, NEVER enable bad behavior. People who are horribly cruel to you will not suddenly be nice just because you helped them out once. While many claim showing charity towards your enemies and those who are cruel to you is the right thing to do, it only enables further bad behavior in my experience. One more important thing to keep in mind, you are young. A young person's dollar saved/spent paying off debt, is worth substantially more than an elderly person's dollar saved (time value of money). When people need help and charity, try to make sure they are taking steps on their own to improve their life, rather than just relying on the goodwill of others.
Once upon a time, there was a Boglehead and his SO. They came from very different families, one who had a kind and loving family and one who did not. Boglehead loved his sibling who was responsible, but in school, married, with a kid, and was poor as can be. The Boglehead helped him whenever possible because he loved his sibling that was doing the responsible thing and building a better life for his family.
The SO loved her family, but they did not love her back. This family said and performed many cruel and shameful acts while hiding behind a wide variety of rationales. One day, that family came upon hard times and started to hit up family members for money and help, including the SO. The SO claimed she had no funds or ability to help with her current busy schedule in school, and dodged the normal wrath and vitriol that typically was part of any response the family gave.
While this is obviously somewhat dramatized, and no one is perfect, NEVER enable bad behavior. People who are horribly cruel to you will not suddenly be nice just because you helped them out once. While many claim showing charity towards your enemies and those who are cruel to you is the right thing to do, it only enables further bad behavior in my experience. One more important thing to keep in mind, you are young. A young person's dollar saved/spent paying off debt, is worth substantially more than an elderly person's dollar saved (time value of money). When people need help and charity, try to make sure they are taking steps on their own to improve their life, rather than just relying on the goodwill of others.