For Women on this forum and those who share their expertise

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills
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Kersten
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For Women on this forum and those who share their expertise

Post by Kersten » Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:54 pm

Recently, while surfing the "Net" I came across a site that was very helpful to me, in answering some questions.
The site is: http://www.wiserwomen.org [link fixed by admin LadyGeek]

It is described as follows:

"Women's Institute For A Secure Retirement
Improving the long-term financial security of all women through education and advocacyYOUR FINANCIAL FUTURE:
. Saving & Investing
. Retirement Plans
. Health Care
. Social Security-divorce/loss of spouse
. Caregiving
. Investment Calculator
Lifetime Income Annuity Calculator"

It appears to be a non-profit of the Heinz Foundation.

For my needs, I found the information VERY helpful.

For women or people who are assisting them(I recall a couple of sons asking questions as to how to help their Moms)this site may be something to check out.

I am not a financial guru as many people on Boggleheads are, but I do know that information is power...and this site may provide the info that someone needs to "empower" themselves. Hope it helps someone!

Best Regards,

Kersten

epilnk
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by epilnk » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:17 pm

Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.

Skeet
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Skeet » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:32 pm

I know women (and men) who are less financially literate who would find Bogleheads intimidating, like where do they even start? I work with many, and am related to even more. My mother, for instance. She would find the Wiser Women website easier to navigate, likely, and would learn something. They may not learn how to do a mega-backdoor Roth, but they will learn the different savings methods available for their retirement, and how to know if they have enough. For many people, there is a lot of value in that level of education. It looks like a well organized site, and one my Mother will like.

Sandra

Allan
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Allan » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:33 pm

Kersten wrote:
For women or people who are assisting them(I recall a couple of sons asking questions as to how to help their Moms)this site may be something to check out.

I am not a financial guru as many people on Boggleheads are, but I do know that information is power...and this site may provide the info that someone needs to "empower" themselves. Hope it helps someone!

Best Regards,

Kersten
Kersten

Thank you for sharing this link, I briefly looked at it and thought overall the advice looks sound. I am going to send it to my daughter to read and reference in the future.

Allan

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hoppy08520
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by hoppy08520 » Wed Nov 05, 2014 8:51 pm

epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.

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cfs
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by cfs » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:05 pm

Thank you.

Thanks for the link, I will forward to my daughters and my wife for info. I just went to the website and learned something new (November is National Family Caregivers Month, I was not aware of this).
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Herekittykitty
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Herekittykitty » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:18 pm

Interesting. Thanks for posting the link.
I don't know anything.

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Steelersfan
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Steelersfan » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:25 pm

I'm a guy, but I reviewed one article and found it to be both helpful, not too difficult, and accurate. I suspect others are just as good.

Good resource.

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BL
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by BL » Wed Nov 05, 2014 9:35 pm

Thank you for sharing this. I just glanced at it, but if it has good information then it is great to have another reference. In fact, it might be just the place to refer the spouses of some of the participants here who say their wives/husbands have no interest in finances. Just like it is often a mistake to teach a spouse to drive, it may also be unwise to try to teach a spouse about investing.

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dbCooperAir
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by dbCooperAir » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:21 am

Thanks for the link, I know a few people who this may help.
Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. | -Dwight D. Eisenhower-

TheRightKost87
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by TheRightKost87 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:46 am

hoppy08520 wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.
I think the point was that it need not be limited to just women. I could imagine the comments if there was a site called WiserMen.org that was advertised as a male-specific retirement guide "Why exclude women?!?!?"

I checked out the site and it looks like there's some good information on there , applicable to a mutlitude of people, thanks for posting.
"The problem with diversification is that it works, whether or not we want it to"

bungalow10
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by bungalow10 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 11:57 am

epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
Because some Bogleheads are women :oops:

Just like some Bogleheads are doctors and might enjoy The Whitecoat Investor.
An elephant for a dime is only a good deal if you need an elephant and have a dime.

leonard
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:01 pm

hoppy08520 wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

bungalow10
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by bungalow10 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:09 pm

leonard wrote:
hoppy08520 wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
Implying there is nothing personal about personal finance is a surefire way to alienate potential contributors. This type of attitude is exactly why this board skews male (although not as much as it used to - there have been huge improvements in the last two years).
An elephant for a dime is only a good deal if you need an elephant and have a dime.

leonard
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:28 pm

bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
hoppy08520 wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
Implying there is nothing personal about personal finance is a surefire way to alienate potential contributors. This type of attitude is exactly why this board skews male (although not as much as it used to - there have been huge improvements in the last two years).
Are you making an argument that it's about more than cash flows and meeting those cash flows? I noticed nothing in your reply that actually addressed my premises or conclusion. BTW - there is also nothing inherently male about that statement either. That's the beauty of the boglehead approach - is that it's approachable by everyone regardless of any of their other characteristics. That's inclusionary to the extreme - not the other way around.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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dodecahedron
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by dodecahedron » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:32 pm

leonard wrote:
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
On average, women *do* have different needs. We are significantly more likely to live longer, we are less likely to have a spouse to help us if and when we become too frail to care for ourselves (so we are more likely to have LTC issues--just visit any nursing home or assisted living facility and you will notice that men are an extremely distinct minority!), and we are likely to have lower Social Security and DB pension benefits (due to less time in labor force and/or lower salaries).

As a group, studies have shown that we are also less confident and more risk averse (much less interested in playing poker, for example) and less interested in doing financial potential "stupid pet tricks" for bragging rights. (Guys often talk about having a certain amount of "play money." I don't hear much of that from women.)

http://www.fastcompany.com/3033896/stro ... -investors

Given the traditional household division of labor, many of us are likely to have to make a transition to assuming 100% responsibility of financial management for our households at a very emotional time in our lives, i.e., when we lose our spouses. I have personally found the Bogleheads site enormously helpful but I know a lot of other women who might be overwhelmed by all the technical details in many of the posts here. Some women may want help in cutting through the clutter of posts to which they can't personally relate to easily find first-person accounts from other women who have been in our shoes and navigated that transition successfully.
Last edited by dodecahedron on Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

clip651
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by clip651 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:35 pm

leonard wrote: Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
Having just read the 32 page booklet on Financial Steps for Caregivers, I disagree. A very high proportion of caregivers are women, and while general sound financial advice applies regardless of gender or situation, the needs of caregivers are in fact different from the needs of some other groups, just as one single example of how women's needs can differ. Having advice available that speaks to the situation you are in (whether by gender, age group, caregivers, doctors, whatever) is valuable. A mature woman struggling to keep a job while caring for her aging parents is going to get turned off by a website that assumes the "average investor" is a young male focused on a career path with opportunities for promotions and whatnot, for example.

The net advice is in some ways the really same - budget, save as much as you can, use your IRA/401k, have a plan, etc. But the details and perspectives are different. And that matters.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by bungalow10 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:41 pm

leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
hoppy08520 wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
"Offensively condescending"? Sheesh. Would you say a personal finance site geared toward millennials is condescending and offensive? Or members of the uniformed services? Or doctors? There are a lot of personal finance issues that can affect one segment or another differently, and women are no different. That doesn't mean there's a different male and female answer to "where's the best place to get a 5-year CD?" but there are some aspects of personal finance that might tend to have more interest to women or which might, in general, affect the average woman differently than the average man. BH.org doesn't have to be the only personal finance/investing site on the internet.
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
Implying there is nothing personal about personal finance is a surefire way to alienate potential contributors. This type of attitude is exactly why this board skews male (although not as much as it used to - there have been huge improvements in the last two years).
Are you making an argument that it's about more than cash flows and meeting those cash flows? I noticed nothing in your reply that actually addressed my premises or conclusion. BTW - there is also nothing inherently male about that statement either. That's the beauty of the boglehead approach - is that it's approachable by everyone regardless of any of their other characteristics. That's inclusionary to the extreme - not the other way around.
I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
An elephant for a dime is only a good deal if you need an elephant and have a dime.

leonard
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:43 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
leonard wrote:
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
On average, women *do* have different needs. We are significantly more likely to live longer, we are less likely to have a spouse to help us if and when we become too frail to care for ourselves (so we are more likely to have LTC issues--just visit any nursing home or assisted living facility and you will notice that men are an extremely distinct minority!), and we are likely to have lower Social Security and DB pension benefits (due to less time in labor force and/or lower salaries).

As a group, studies have shown that we are also less confident and more risk averse (much less interested in playing poker, for example) and less interested in doing financial potential "stupid pet tricks" for bragging rights. (Guys often talk about having a certain amount of "play money." I don't hear much of that from women.)

http://www.fastcompany.com/3033896/stro ... -investors

Given the traditional household division of labor, many of us are likely to have to make a transition to assuming 100% responsibility of financial management for our households at a very emotional time in our lives, i.e., when we lose our spouses. I have personally found the Bogleheads site enormously helpful but I know a lot of other women who might be overwhelmed by all the technical details in many of the posts here. Some women may want help in finding first-person accounts from other women who have been in our shoes and navigated that transition successfully.
All of those issues you highlight - for finance purposes - can be boiled down to differences in cash flow requirements.

Women "live longer". Ok. From a finance perspective - they need to withdraw cash for longer from their portfolios. Sure, there is a correlation - but the real finance issue is requiring cash flow over a predicted longer period of time. That could be true of any person - male or female - that has a history of family longevity.

Lower SS benefits or lower DB pensions - that means one would have higher requirements for portfolio withdrawal than anyone that has higher SS benefits or higher DB pensions.

If a person - woman or not - is more risk averse, then a more conservative portfolio.

Once an individuals need is boiled down to their cash flow requirements and the options for meeting those requirements - it eliminates opportunities for affinity cons due to being a member of a class - women, men, country club members, whatever. This also eliminates the emotions that follow the affinity. Analyze the numbers, use a BH approach to satisfying the numbers.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

leonard
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:45 pm

bungalow10 wrote:I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
Again, avoiding my original premises and not taking issue specifically with my conclusion. I'll conclude we agree - since we don't seem to be disagreeing on the logic.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

bungalow10
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by bungalow10 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:56 pm

leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
Again, avoiding my original premises and not taking issue specifically with my conclusion. I'll conclude we agree - since we don't seem to be disagreeing on the logic.
In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.
That's the premise you are defending. That won't make all other personal finance web sites go away, nor will many of us stop getting information from multiple sources. Many BH's have their own sites they author and contribute to. Does that make them not Bogleheads?

That I want something different than you does not make that wrong. It's just different.
An elephant for a dime is only a good deal if you need an elephant and have a dime.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by PatrickA5 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:31 pm

Thanks for the link. I think I'll send it to my DW and daughters. I'm for anything that will get them to start thinking finances. They may actually read this website, whereas I know they wouldn't if I sent them the bogleheads website.

I have no idea why anybody would be offended by this. Sure, you can probably get all of the financial information you need on bogleheads website, but there's nothing wrong with reading more than one. I have about 20 or 30 websites that I read. Some are good (boggleheads), some not so good. I just keep reading.

leonard
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:16 pm

bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
Again, avoiding my original premises and not taking issue specifically with my conclusion. I'll conclude we agree - since we don't seem to be disagreeing on the logic.
In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.
That's the premise you are defending. That won't make all other personal finance web sites go away, nor will many of us stop getting information from multiple sources. Many BH's have their own sites they author and contribute to. Does that make them not Bogleheads?

That I want something different than you does not make that wrong. It's just different.
The key in there is that BH have their own websites is that they are BH's. I am pretty confident that these BH will take BH philosophy and apply it to their areas. Other affinity websites are very likely not going to be applying BH philosophy to the challenge.

I think the fundamental problem I have with affinity personal finance websites is that the appear to validate the premise that membership in a class means you should be doing what that class does. There may well be a correlation between class members and the personal finance needs, but unfortunately, I think many folks conclude that correlation is causation. From there, I think that is how affinity sales pitches and affinity cons get their foot hold. People new to personal finance and the concepts may be tempted to find the quick answer in someone "they can trust". "I understand the unique financial demands of the Taxidermist...." or whatever the profession or class. That door is simply not open if one does away with the assumption that affinity to a class has a bearing on their specific situation.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Fallible » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:16 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
leonard wrote:
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
On average, women *do* have different needs. We are significantly more likely to live longer, we are less likely to have a spouse to help us if and when we become too frail to care for ourselves (so we are more likely to have LTC issues--just visit any nursing home or assisted living facility and you will notice that men are an extremely distinct minority!), and we are likely to have lower Social Security and DB pension benefits (due to less time in labor force and/or lower salaries). ...

Given the traditional household division of labor, many of us are likely to have to make a transition to assuming 100% responsibility of financial management for our households at a very emotional time in our lives, i.e., when we lose our spouses. I have personally found the Bogleheads site enormously helpful but I know a lot of other women who might be overwhelmed by all the technical details in many of the posts here. Some women may want help in cutting through the clutter of posts to which they can't personally relate to easily find first-person accounts from other women who have been in our shoes and navigated that transition successfully.
Very nicely sums up those different needs. And thanks to the OP for the link; the "caregiver" month was especially interesting for me as I spent several years caregiving for an ill parent.
Bogleheads® wiki | Investing Advice Inspired by Jack Bogle

bungalow10
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by bungalow10 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:25 pm

leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
Again, avoiding my original premises and not taking issue specifically with my conclusion. I'll conclude we agree - since we don't seem to be disagreeing on the logic.
In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.
That's the premise you are defending. That won't make all other personal finance web sites go away, nor will many of us stop getting information from multiple sources. Many BH's have their own sites they author and contribute to. Does that make them not Bogleheads?

That I want something different than you does not make that wrong. It's just different.
The key in there is that BH have their own websites is that they are BH's. I am pretty confident that these BH will take BH philosophy and apply it to their areas. Other affinity websites are very likely not going to be applying BH philosophy to the challenge.

I think the fundamental problem I have with affinity personal finance websites is that the appear to validate the premise that membership in a class means you should be doing what that class does. There may well be a correlation between class members and the personal finance needs, but unfortunately, I think many folks conclude that correlation is causation. From there, I think that is how affinity sales pitches and affinity cons get their foot hold. People new to personal finance and the concepts may be tempted to find the quick answer in someone "they can trust". "I understand the unique financial demands of the Taxidermist...." or whatever the profession or class. That door is simply not open if one does away with the assumption that affinity to a class has a bearing on their specific situation.
When I was a landlord, I definitely looked to other sites for advice. BH has some, but not the level of depth and discussion. Other small business owners might do the same.

If we did a survey of race, age, gender, education, etc of this group, I'm sure we'd find that the population served is not representative of the general population. Why do you think that is?
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:28 pm

bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:
leonard wrote:
bungalow10 wrote:I'm glad you can get all the personal finance information you will ever need from Bogleheads.org. The fact that I am also on Bogleheads.org and telling you that I appreciate and will utilize other personal finance sites should be enough for you to understand that personal finance isn't one-size-fits-all.
Again, avoiding my original premises and not taking issue specifically with my conclusion. I'll conclude we agree - since we don't seem to be disagreeing on the logic.
In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.
That's the premise you are defending. That won't make all other personal finance web sites go away, nor will many of us stop getting information from multiple sources. Many BH's have their own sites they author and contribute to. Does that make them not Bogleheads?

That I want something different than you does not make that wrong. It's just different.
The key in there is that BH have their own websites is that they are BH's. I am pretty confident that these BH will take BH philosophy and apply it to their areas. Other affinity websites are very likely not going to be applying BH philosophy to the challenge.

I think the fundamental problem I have with affinity personal finance websites is that the appear to validate the premise that membership in a class means you should be doing what that class does. There may well be a correlation between class members and the personal finance needs, but unfortunately, I think many folks conclude that correlation is causation. From there, I think that is how affinity sales pitches and affinity cons get their foot hold. People new to personal finance and the concepts may be tempted to find the quick answer in someone "they can trust". "I understand the unique financial demands of the Taxidermist...." or whatever the profession or class. That door is simply not open if one does away with the assumption that affinity to a class has a bearing on their specific situation.
When I was a landlord, I definitely looked to other sites for advice. BH has some, but not the level of depth and discussion. Other small business owners might do the same.

If we did a survey of race, age, gender, education, etc of this group, I'm sure we'd find that the population served is not representative of the general population. Why do you think that is?
Not being confrontational. Just trying to understand why your responses do not address the actual argument being put forth.

Also, your final questions asks me to give a reason for a premise you are assuming to be true - just for the sake of argument. How precisely would I go about giving a reason for an unproven, hypothetical assumption? I don't even see how that is possible.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by HurdyGurdy » Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:53 pm

leonard wrote: Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.
There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.
That "figuring out" is not trivial, given the "variance" of life trajectories. Still, as I remember, demographic and labor economics studies show that a lot of that variance is explained by gender, as a main effect or interacting with class, professional status, professional status of parents, etc. Additionally, to communicate to an audience, it helps to talk about familiar experiences.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by TheTimeLord » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:53 pm

epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
You seem to answer the question posed in your first sentence with the statement made in the second.
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by BL » Thu Nov 06, 2014 3:53 pm

dodecahedron wrote:
leonard wrote:
Sheesh.

Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.

There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.

In fact, the very notion of a website for a particular subset of investors may create the false impression that they have different needs.

Sheesh indeed.
On average, women *do* have different needs. We are significantly more likely to live longer, we are less likely to have a spouse to help us if and when we become too frail to care for ourselves (so we are more likely to have LTC issues--just visit any nursing home or assisted living facility and you will notice that men are an extremely distinct minority!), and we are likely to have lower Social Security and DB pension benefits (due to less time in labor force and/or lower salaries).

As a group, studies have shown that we are also less confident and more risk averse (much less interested in playing poker, for example) and less interested in doing financial potential "stupid pet tricks" for bragging rights. (Guys often talk about having a certain amount of "play money." I don't hear much of that from women.)

http://www.fastcompany.com/3033896/stro ... -investors

Given the traditional household division of labor, many of us are likely to have to make a transition to assuming 100% responsibility of financial management for our households at a very emotional time in our lives, i.e., when we lose our spouses. I have personally found the Bogleheads site enormously helpful but I know a lot of other women who might be overwhelmed by all the technical details in many of the posts here. Some women may want help in cutting through the clutter of posts to which they can't personally relate to easily find first-person accounts from other women who have been in our shoes and navigated that transition successfully.
Thank you, dodecahedron, for pointing out some well thought out reasons for some of the differences that may need to be considered. I believe that BH is a great forum, but it seems to me to be mostly populated with male and female STEM (science, technology, engineering, math) persons who like the mathematical bent of many discussions here. There are of course, many others here who appreciate and contribute to the successful organization that it is and keep it on track. But I also appreciate the writings (blogs, books) of members who have specific interests, and would recommend other forums if they are as useful as this one is, no matter who they are directed at. In earlier years, I found that Jane Bryant Quinn was one of the useful authors whose book could be found in public libraries, and I believe she was also a regular contributor to a magazine directed at women. (Just found a link to her website!). The wiserwomen website in question sounds great; I hope it stands up to examination.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by dolphinsaremammals » Thu Nov 06, 2014 4:39 pm

epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
+1
Well, we little women are so dumb, you know.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by The Wizard » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:01 pm

dolphinsaremammals wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
+1
Well, we little women are so dumb, you know.
Let's not be inflammatory, shall we?
It's not the 1960's anymore, but there's still some issues for the female half of the population.
Lower average pay in some cases.
Longer life expectancy on average.
Much higher surviving spouse percentage due to the amusing tendency of males to cohabit with younger females, on average.

So no excuse for ANYONE to be financially naïve nowadays, but there are still likely more women who have money issues to deal with than us guys...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by jane1 » Thu Nov 06, 2014 5:04 pm

dodecahedron wrote: On average, women *do* have different needs. We are significantly more likely to live longer, we are less likely to have a spouse to help us if and when we become too frail to care for ourselves (so we are more likely to have LTC issues--just visit any nursing home or assisted living facility and you will notice that men are an extremely distinct minority!), and we are likely to have lower Social Security and DB pension benefits (due to less time in labor force and/or lower salaries).

As a group, studies have shown that we are also less confident and more risk averse (much less interested in playing poker, for example) and less interested in doing financial potential "stupid pet tricks" for bragging rights. (Guys often talk about having a certain amount of "play money." I don't hear much of that from women.)

http://www.fastcompany.com/3033896/stro ... -investors

Given the traditional household division of labor, many of us are likely to have to make a transition to assuming 100% responsibility of financial management for our households at a very emotional time in our lives, i.e., when we lose our spouses. I have personally found the Bogleheads site enormously helpful but I know a lot of other women who might be overwhelmed by all the technical details in many of the posts here. Some women may want help in cutting through the clutter of posts to which they can't personally relate to easily find first-person accounts from other women who have been in our shoes and navigated that transition successfully.
+1
Well put.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by VictoriaF » Thu Nov 06, 2014 7:55 pm

I visited the WISER site and clicked on various tabs. WISER provides a collection of articles and blog entries. In contrast, the Bogleheads Forum is interactive, which is particularly valuable for the reasons as follows:
(1) participants debunk faulty information,
(2) posters are less likely to provide faulty information in an open forum because they anticipate that their faulty information would be debunked and their reputation tarnished, and
(3) reputable posters respond to pointed questions and provide multifaceted insights.

For people who want to acquire financial knowledge by reading, WISER complements the Bogleheads Wiki by addressing special topics such as caregiving. For people who want to have their specific questions answered in an environment where ulterior motives are exposed and prudent advice is confirmed, the Bogleheads Forum provides superior value.

Victoria
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by rkhusky » Thu Nov 06, 2014 8:23 pm

epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Nov 06, 2014 9:00 pm

As a reminder, see: Forum Policy
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones...

If you disagree with an idea, go ahead and marshal all your forces against it. But do not confuse ideas with the person posting them; at all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters.
We have a disagreement on the usefulness of WISER Women. The point has been made, as well as several counterpoints. Further discussion will not be productive, let's stop discussing that aspect here.
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by lululu » Thu Nov 06, 2014 10:12 pm

rkhusky wrote:
epilnk wrote:Can you tell us why anyone on the bogleheads site might possibly be interested in a site that is aimed at women? That strikes me as both unnecessarily limited in scope and offensively condescending. But of course I haven't visited the site itself.
[OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
[Response to OT comment removed by admin LadyGeek]

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:00 pm

HurdyGurdy wrote:
leonard wrote: Personal finance is about figuring out when one needs particular cash flows. Then, arranging investments and AA to meet those needs.
There's nothing gender specific about timing of cash flows or how to meet those cash flows through saving and investing. BTW - same is true of millennials, uniformed services, doctors, or any other group.
That "figuring out" is not trivial, given the "variance" of life trajectories. Still, as I remember, demographic and labor economics studies show that a lot of that variance is explained by gender, as a main effect or interacting with class, professional status, professional status of parents, etc. Additionally, to communicate to an audience, it helps to talk about familiar experiences.
Correlation <> causation.

Sometimes men live to 115. Sometimes women live to 50. So, reasoning from what may be generally, statistically true of a group to a specific member of the group is flawed. You have to use the specific situation anyway to give solid advice - so why even try to draw conclusions from what's true of the group?

Not sure why the notion of dealing with each individual investor - as an individual - is so controversial.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Ganacel » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:40 pm

leonard wrote:Correlation <> causation.

Sometimes men live to 115. Sometimes women live to 50. So, reasoning from what may be generally, statistically true of a group to a specific member of the group is flawed. You have to use the specific situation anyway to give solid advice - so why even try to draw conclusions from what's true of the group?

Not sure why the notion of dealing with each individual investor - as an individual - is so controversial.
I don't think it's controversial. Rationally, it makes perfect sense to you and me and most of the other people (both men and women) who read a site like this. But that's because we're pretty much all people who are well educated, mathematically inclined, and technologically savvy. But not everyone is like the people on this forum. Take someone like my mom who isn't college educated, is uncomfortable with computers, and understands nothing about investing. She'd never read a site like this, even though she worked for many years managing an office and has very good financial sense and practical experience with budgeting and other financial tasks. It's not because she's stupid or incapable of understanding what we talk about on this site, either. She just gets intimidated by all the math and, well, by guys who are kind of strident in their views.

So the reason why we need sites like that one is because some people are intimidated and scared away by sites like this one. It's like, I'm sure you don't mean to make people feel stupid for not "getting" what you're saying, but hopefully you can understand how statements like the one I quoted above might come across like that to some people. Especially since there is no way for the reader to see your face or hear the inflection of your voice, the general tone of your post could come across kind of harsh like, "THIS IS SO OBVIOUS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO DUMB TO NOT GET IT????" Even though I agree with your point that the principles of financial planning are the same for everyone, I can also see how someone who interpreted a post like yours more negatively than it was intended might be scared off from wanting to participate in the discussion. Whether we practical types like it or not, the way that information is presented to people greatly affects how receptive they'll be to it.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by VictoriaF » Mon Nov 10, 2014 6:45 pm

Ganacel wrote:
leonard wrote:Correlation <> causation.

Sometimes men live to 115. Sometimes women live to 50. So, reasoning from what may be generally, statistically true of a group to a specific member of the group is flawed. You have to use the specific situation anyway to give solid advice - so why even try to draw conclusions from what's true of the group?

Not sure why the notion of dealing with each individual investor - as an individual - is so controversial.
I don't think it's controversial. Rationally, it makes perfect sense to you and me and most of the other people (both men and women) who read a site like this. But that's because we're pretty much all people who are well educated, mathematically inclined, and technologically savvy. But not everyone is like the people on this forum. Take someone like my mom who isn't college educated, is uncomfortable with computers, and understands nothing about investing. She'd never read a site like this, even though she worked for many years managing an office and has very good financial sense and practical experience with budgeting and other financial tasks. It's not because she's stupid or incapable of understanding what we talk about on this site, either. She just gets intimidated by all the math and, well, by guys who are kind of strident in their views.

So the reason why we need sites like that one is because some people are intimidated and scared away by sites like this one. It's like, I'm sure you don't mean to make people feel stupid for not "getting" what you're saying, but hopefully you can understand how statements like the one I quoted above might come across like that to some people. Especially since there is no way for the reader to see your face or hear the inflection of your voice, the general tone of your post could come across kind of harsh like, "THIS IS SO OBVIOUS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO DUMB TO NOT GET IT????" Even though I agree with your point that the principles of financial planning are the same for everyone, I can also see how someone who interpreted a post like yours more negatively than it was intended might be scared off from wanting to participate in the discussion. Whether we practical types like it or not, the way that information is presented to people greatly affects how receptive they'll be to it.
The advantage of the Bogleheads Forum for women like your mother is that here she can ask her specific questions and get relevant answers. When questions are posted humbly and it's clear that the poster is a novice (a man or a woman), the responses are usually gentle and not mathematically-intimidating.

Victoria
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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Ganacel » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:04 pm

VictoriaF wrote: The advantage of the Bogleheads Forum for women like your mother is that here she can ask her specific questions and get relevant answers. When questions are posted humbly and it's clear that the poster is a novice (a man or a woman), the responses are usually gentle and not mathematically-intimidating.

Victoria
Oh, I agree. People have been super helpful whenever I've asked questions, and I've learned a lot here even in just the couple of short months I've been participating. FWIW, my mom still is indirectly benefiting, because even though she won't ever join this forum, she still listens to me tell her about all the things I've learned and what I'm doing with my money even though she's not interested in managing her own investments. The last time I was home, I talked to her about how I came up with my IPS and AA for like an hour. She thought it all made sense and we agreed that I'd be able to do it better myself than I would have with the active manager I was going to go with originally. Now I've moved on to i-bonds and the taxable account, so maybe I can tell her about that for Thanksgiving. lol.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by Professor Emeritus » Mon Nov 10, 2014 10:36 pm

leonard wrote:
The key in there is that BH have their own websites is that they are BH's. I am pretty confident that these BH will take BH philosophy and apply it to their areas. Other affinity websites are very likely not going to be applying BH philosophy to the challenge.

I think the fundamental problem I have with affinity personal finance websites is that the appear to validate the premise that membership in a class means you should be doing what that class does. There may well be a correlation between class members and the personal finance needs, but unfortunately, I think many folks conclude that correlation is causation. From there, I think that is how affinity sales pitches and affinity cons get their foot hold. People new to personal finance and the concepts may be tempted to find the quick answer in someone "they can trust". "I understand the unique financial demands of the Taxidermist...." or whatever the profession or class. That door is simply not open if one does away with the assumption that affinity to a class has a bearing on their specific situation.
In my experience "spread sheet zombies" are overwhelmingly male. You know the type, too thick to figure out the difference between total Assets and portfolio assets . Zombies write things like " a house is not an asset since you have to live somewhere, and Social security is not an asset since you cant rebalance it". How can you reason with people who say "you should take social security at 62 since you might get hit by a truck at 69 an never get anything" I suspect women are simply tired of such nonsense and are seeking a respite :happy

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by leonard » Wed Nov 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Ganacel wrote:
leonard wrote:Correlation <> causation.

Sometimes men live to 115. Sometimes women live to 50. So, reasoning from what may be generally, statistically true of a group to a specific member of the group is flawed. You have to use the specific situation anyway to give solid advice - so why even try to draw conclusions from what's true of the group?

Not sure why the notion of dealing with each individual investor - as an individual - is so controversial.
I don't think it's controversial. Rationally, it makes perfect sense to you and me and most of the other people (both men and women) who read a site like this. But that's because we're pretty much all people who are well educated, mathematically inclined, and technologically savvy. But not everyone is like the people on this forum. Take someone like my mom who isn't college educated, is uncomfortable with computers, and understands nothing about investing. She'd never read a site like this, even though she worked for many years managing an office and has very good financial sense and practical experience with budgeting and other financial tasks. It's not because she's stupid or incapable of understanding what we talk about on this site, either. She just gets intimidated by all the math and, well, by guys who are kind of strident in their views.

So the reason why we need sites like that one is because some people are intimidated and scared away by sites like this one. It's like, I'm sure you don't mean to make people feel stupid for not "getting" what you're saying, but hopefully you can understand how statements like the one I quoted above might come across like that to some people. Especially since there is no way for the reader to see your face or hear the inflection of your voice, the general tone of your post could come across kind of harsh like, "THIS IS SO OBVIOUS, HOW CAN YOU BE SO DUMB TO NOT GET IT????" Even though I agree with your point that the principles of financial planning are the same for everyone, I can also see how someone who interpreted a post like yours more negatively than it was intended might be scared off from wanting to participate in the discussion. Whether we practical types like it or not, the way that information is presented to people greatly affects how receptive they'll be to it.
Not sure why anything I put in my post would scare anyone. Correlation is not the same as causation. My counter examples were on point - it does happen. And, I stated that personal financial advice should be tailored to the person and not based on whatever group the are a member. I don't see how any of that is scary. Seems pretty factual to me.

And, all this talk of math complexity and spreadsheet zombies (by a different poster). Unless one chooses to go deeper - the most complex math required to implement and maintain the BH portfolio is multiplication. Multiplication (asset % X portfolio balance) needs to be done for set up and rebalancing. All the other more complex math people debate (IRR, rates of return, Asset class statistical correlation, etc. etc) are not required to implement the boglehead approach. The specifics of those more complex calculations are not required to even get the jist of the BH approach - just an understanding of the concepts. So, where's all this math? If the math gets complex - it's only because an individual investor has chosen to pursue it. The BH approach doesn't require it.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by RadAudit » Thu Nov 13, 2014 10:13 am

leonard wrote: the most complex math required to implement and maintain the BH portfolio is multiplication.
And for that, I am truly grateful. It's probably one of the key reasons I can stay a BH. - most of the relevant calculations can be done with a 1970's hand held calculator. or as noted in "Other People's Money (1914)" and in other places by Mr. Bogle
“Remember, O Stranger, arithmetic is
the first of the sciences, and the mother of safety.”
FI is the best revenge. LBYM. Invest the rest. Stay the course.

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Re: For Women on this forum and those who share their expert

Post by minnesotan » Thu Nov 13, 2014 3:58 pm

I admittedly didn't read EVERY single response posted here about the WISER website. I did sign up for their newsletter and "liked" them on facebook almost immediately only to unlike on FB a couple of hours later after digging around on their site a little bit. warning: I'm kind of a BH forum newbie and only a casual forum reader.

A few things about their website had me concerned:

They list and discuss reverse mortgages under "retirement plans"
There's a LOT of information about annuities with no discouraging the use of them. I'll admit that I listen to a lot of Dave, Suze and Clark though so I'm clearly deep into the "ANNUITIES BAD!" frame of mind.
Their information seems a bit dated in places. Under Saving & Investing they've got 2013 Tax Updates. I'll cut them a little slack on this one though since they're a non-profit and may not have a lot of people with a lot of time to invest in the site.

I haven't written the site off entirely, but I'll need to dig around through their information and resources a little more. I appreciate knowing about this site though.

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