Disaster preparedness

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PlainJane
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Disaster preparedness

Post by PlainJane » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:14 pm

Hi everyone,

Just got back from seeing the movie Doomsday. I can't say enough about how truly awful it was. But it did get me thinking about basic disaster preparedness and about the fact that at this point we have none.

So I was wondering what my fellow bogleheads have in the way of emergancy supplies on hand. How much food, water, batteries, gold???

Thanks everyone,

Jane

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Index Fan
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Post by Index Fan » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:43 pm

At minimum, everybody should have a 72-hour disaster preparedness kit to help in the event of a natural disaster.

A good starting place to go for information on basic preparedness (including the contents of your 72-hour kit) is Ready.gov:

http://www.ready.gov/america/index.html

They have a further links page worth looking at:

http://www.ready.gov/america/other/links.html

At the other end of the extreme (farfetched but possible) is preparation for civil breakdown due to massive disasters or WMDs. For hardcore types, here is a link:

http://www.survivalblog.com/

Here's a recent link from Amazon of 'Equipment for everything from a disaster to a zombie invasion':

http://www.amazon.com/Equipment-everyth ... JMJSQPMDKQ

However, even a normal rational person could get a bit paranoid looking at reasonable sites such as:

http://pandemicflu.gov/

Take it as far as you deem necessary :)
"Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis." | -Seneca

LP
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Disaster Peparedness

Post by LP » Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:54 pm

After Katrina the FEMA rep asked my father for proof of ownership of his home so that he could approve FEMA benefits. That was unexpected but reasonable. One form of proof they accepted was a homeowner's insurance policy number.

We managed to recover his paperwork from the house but it needed to be dried and disinfected.

The safe deposit box at the bank was flooded and its contents were unavailable for months after.

Gather up copies of important papers to take with you in case you have evacuate.

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Post by Index Fan » Sun Mar 16, 2008 9:05 pm

In addition to a 72-hour emergency kit, I keep some cash on hand for emergencies. You can keep scanned copies of important papers and downloads of electronic documents on an encrypted flash drive, which is very portable.

I'd say the worst-case scenario that I can plausibly see happening is a pandemic flu outbreak, which if it were a deadly strain of the avian flu could bring society to a halt for some months as people avoided work, school, and other people. That's pretty scary. Having a stockpile of basic supplies would be very useful in such a situation.
"Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis." | -Seneca

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PlainJane
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Post by PlainJane » Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:15 pm

Thanks for the great suggestions. I never thought about the documents. What documents do you think are important to store?

-Jane

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bottlecap
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Post by bottlecap » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:16 pm

An M1 Garand, 1,000 rounds of ammunition, and gas masks rated for chemical, nuclear and biological protection. I expect that by mid-June, the Supreme Court will let me know whether I can legally possess two-thirds of this preparedness kit. :wink:

The documents are a good idea that I hadn't thought of, though.

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Post by MWCA » Tue Mar 18, 2008 7:42 pm

Learn to use a firearm and keep one ready. Make sure you have a good deal of water 1 gallon per person a day. Canned goods aren't bad but heavy if you have to be on the move. Check into getting some power bars and lighter but heavy in calorie items. Keep an emergency kit obviously. Also look into the various water purification kits.

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Post by Index Fan » Fri Mar 21, 2008 2:49 pm

Another Amazon disaster products roundup:

Prepare For the Next Hurricane Without Leaving Your Desk

http://www.amazon.com/gp/richpub/syltgu ... RFKZS6VC7A

PlainJane wrote:Thanks for the great suggestions. I never thought about the documents. What documents do you think are important to store?

-Jane

Quarterly bank and investment account balance documents, birth certificates,
wills, mortgages or leases, other identification documents.
"Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis." | -Seneca

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Post by Valuethinker » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:39 am

bottlecap wrote:An M1 Garand, 1,000 rounds of ammunition, and gas masks rated for chemical, nuclear and biological protection. I expect that by mid-June, the Supreme Court will let me know whether I can legally possess two-thirds of this preparedness kit. :wink:

The documents are a good idea that I hadn't thought of, though.
I suspect, these days, a .223 is a far more common calibre than the Garand (.303?)?

So I would go for an Armalite (AR15/ M16). Actually a Kalashnikov (can you buy a civilianised version in the US?) is the far more common rifle (there are something like 400 million in the world, vs. 20m armalites), but not in the USA. And a Kalashnikov is a lot more robust weapon.

NBC your problem is filters. Once open, they don't last.

You have to do a threat analysis. If you live in the vicinity of a major city, then a tactical nuclear detonation by a terrorist group will make life difficult, but if you can stay in a protected room in your house, with filtered air supply, for as little as a week you can significantly reduce your radiation exposure.

All Swiss, Taiwanese and Israeli homes have such shelters (South Korean too, maybe?).

Chemical is more difficult. You need to know what the local chemical plants (and the *supply trains* that pass through your community: remember when Toronto had that multi-thousand ton blowup of PVC on a train?) actually manufacture-- different filters have different capacities. Some chemicals burn: your hazmat suit has to be the right sort.

Your local chemical company may be unforthcoming about what is stored.

When the Hatfield gasoline storage plant went up a couple of years ago North of London, most locals hadn't realised that the aviation store for Heathrow Airport (the world's busiest international airport) was on their doorstep-- Heathrow being 30 miles away. They *still* haven't figured out how to decontaminate it (the foam they used is still there).

Then there is the problem of protecting your pet, your child etc. Remember in 1990 in Israel under SCUD attack, people died because they put their gasmasks on the wrong way and suffuocated (during an emergency, it's a criminal fine in Israel to not have your gasmask).

Bacteriological we are broadly all toast (if viral) but in general you need a very small porosity filter, and lots of decontamination soap.

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Post by Valuethinker » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:45 am

Index Fan wrote:In addition to a 72-hour emergency kit, I keep some cash on hand for emergencies. You can keep scanned copies of important papers and downloads of electronic documents on an encrypted flash drive, which is very portable.

I'd say the worst-case scenario that I can plausibly see happening is a pandemic flu outbreak, which if it were a deadly strain of the avian flu could bring society to a halt for some months as people avoided work, school, and other people. That's pretty scary. Having a stockpile of basic supplies would be very useful in such a situation.
We survived 1919.

Roughly speaking, there were 1.5 billion people in the world, then. 20-80 million died (hard to get an exact figure, in places like India and Africa and Russia, no one was keeping count).

1919 Flu killed able-bodied people more than the young or old: most of us, in our family tree, have someone who died. An immunological phenomenon known as 'cytokine shock'.

The difference now is we have better medicine, but also we have airplanes. It took months for the flu to spread, this time it will be hours or days.

6 billion of us now. Say 1% die (60 million) or 3 million Americans. 30% or so get very sick (I've had flu, or flu-like conditions, twice: it is completely devastating).

It's quite likely anti-virals won't work. We are stockpiling drugs that may have limited efficacy.

Pure basic hygiene will be the key.

St. Louis, I think, saved a lot of lives over Philadelphia, by closing public places like cinemas and swimming pools, much sooner, and keeping them closed for longer (shades of the old polio epidemics of the 1950s).

The big problem is dumb things like if the schools are closed, then the healthcare system shuts down, because the nurses can't leave their kids to go to work.

I know the UK government ran some test drills, and was pretty disconcerted with the results.

The Bank of England has had the financial institutions run drills-- how does the payment system function if 90% of your staff isn't there. How does the economy function if there is a run on the ATMs?

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Re: Disaster preparedness

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Mar 22, 2008 7:47 am

PlainJane wrote:Hi everyone,

Just got back from seeing the movie Doomsday. I can't say enough about how truly awful it was. But it did get me thinking about basic disaster preparedness and about the fact that at this point we have none.

So I was wondering what my fellow bogleheads have in the way of emergancy supplies on hand. How much food, water, batteries, gold???

Thanks everyone,

Jane
Cormac McArthy's "The Road" is pretty good if you want bleak visions of the future.

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Post by Index Fan » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:04 pm

Speaking of disaster novels, Lucifer's Hammer by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle is an interesting look at a catastrophic comet strike on Earth that nearly ends civilization, leading to harrowing survival situations.

In addition to the .223 caliber for longarms, 7.62x39 is quite common too- lots of inexpensive Norinco imports of SKS & AK-47 knockoffs flooded the gun market in the 90s. Going for a common caliber and reliability in a firearm would be wise. Don't forget .22 rimfire for small game rifles, and shotguns too.
"Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis." | -Seneca

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Post by tdhg566 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 6:40 pm

Valuethinker wrote:I suspect, these days, a .223 is a far more common calibre than the Garand (.303?)?...So I would go for an Armalite (AR15/ M16). Actually a Kalashnikov (can you buy a civilianised version in the US?)...
I've given a fair amount of thought to this, and invested a non-trivial amount of money in provisions and preparation. Katrina (both storm and refugees who came here to Houston) just reinforced my determination to be prepared. Each person needs to carefully define the scenario they're planning for. For example, I'm not concerned about nuclear fallout as much as I am toxic clouds from chemical plants SE of here. So I haven't built a fallout shelter. I am very concerned about urban unrest and uncontrolled mobs.

One should have rifles (plural) in both .223 and 7.62x39. As Clint Smith (http://www.thunderranchinc.com/) taught my wife and I, "two is one and one is none", meaning that equipment breaks and you need a backup. You also need ammunition, again in both calibers, and I'm talking N 1000s of rounds in each, not just a few 50 count boxes. Don't forget hi-cap magazines, both rifle and pistol. This may be the last year you can buy them for some time. Stock up. And if you're going to own a high-powered rifle, for gosh sakes take some classes and learn how to operate it safely. No one is born with that skill. It took me 20,000 rnds before my .45 became just an extension of my arm. Also keep fresh water on hand (start with 1-2 gal jugs from store and rotate), as well as canned goods (also rotate). I also keep enough gasoline on hand (also rotated) to make it to an intended destination (a relative's house). And critical documents are in a "bug out bag" in one of the fire proof safes (two matching 33cu ft gun safes and a fireproof 2-drawer filing cabinet). This includes passports, birth certificates, marriage licenses. Hadn't thought about the house documents because my scenario is that the house is gone and there's nothing to come back to, but that's a good idea - thanks. And cash. You should assume that POS terminals and ATM machines won't work. How long they'll be out is you're call and part of the planning process. :wink: And don't forget flashlights. I keep 100 CR123 and AA batteries on hand (buy CR123 from http://www.botachtactical.com/). I like Fenix brand LCD lights in both CR123 and AA for general lighting, and Surefire with turbo heads to "own the night" when it gets ugly.

Those of you who think post-calamity human behavior will be like it's depicted in the movies really need to review news footage of New Orleans during Katrina. Especially what happened at the Super Dome. Do not expect authorities to help at all. Most of them will either be dead, or will have fled with their families, or will have turned into looters themselves. Some will serve with honor, but we don't pay civil servants enough to expect them to sacrifice too much. Each of us will be on our own.

Sorry. You got me started :lol: Good luck to us all.
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Post by SamB » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:02 pm

*****
Last edited by SamB on Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by tdhg566 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:37 pm

SamB wrote:...If 10 to 15% of the population goes on a rampage you are basically toast...
10-15% of the population rioting would be a really bad situation. But it's my opinion that riots rarely break out spontaneously without warning. It takes at least 2-3 days before the shock wears off and food and water run out for the unprepared and they decide they have little to loose if they're killed while rioting since the alternative is starvation. And IMHO it won't be 10% of the people, which in Houston metro would be over 400,000 rioters. Regardless of the exact number, large mobs don't form on the first night of an emergency. You may only have 24-48 hours to get the heck out of Dodge, but that could be enough if you're prepared and if your goal is to avoid confrontation (I didn't evacuate during Rita and I've gone on record that I won't evacuate the next time either. I'll stand my ground but that's just me). You do have to evaluate the non-emergency level of tension and anger in your neighborhood. If it's normally high (Detroit, LA, etc), then your lead time is cut accordingly. There are always exceptions, and this is just my opinion, but I feel most people who participate in a mob will stop or retreat when the the pack leaders start falling with multiple rifle hits. And I'm absolutely certain I have enough ammunition to take care of those who don't retreat. If it ever comes to that then civilization as we know it is changed forever. Certainly my life will be if I have to start killing looters and rioters. And my carefully planned asset allocations will be a hobby of the distant past :(

See, there we go, getting me started on this again :lol:
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Post by timid investor » Sat Mar 22, 2008 8:47 pm

tdhg566 wrote:
SamB wrote:...If 10 to 15% of the population goes on a rampage you are basically toast...
10-15% of the population rioting would be a really bad situation. But it's my opinion that riots rarely break out spontaneously without warning. It takes at least 2-3 days before the shock wears off and food and water run out for the unprepared and they decide they have little to loose if they're killed while rioting since the alternative is starvation. And IMHO it won't be 10% of the people, which in Houston metro would be over 400,000 rioters. Regardless of the exact number, large mobs don't form on the first night of an emergency. You may only have 24-48 hours to get the heck out of Dodge, but that could be enough if you're prepared and if your goal is to avoid confrontation (I didn't evacuate during Rita and I've gone on record that I won't evacuate the next time either. I'll stand my ground but that's just me). You do have to evaluate the non-emergency level of tension and anger in your neighborhood. If it's normally high (Detroit, LA, etc), then your lead time is cut accordingly. There are always exceptions, and this is just my opinion, but I feel most people who participate in a mob will stop or retreat when the the pack leaders start falling with multiple rifle hits. And I'm absolutely certain I have enough ammunition to take care of those who don't retreat. If it ever comes to that then civilization as we know it is changed forever. Certainly my life will be if I have to start killing looters and rioters. And my carefully planned asset allocations will be a hobby of the distant past :(

See, there we go, getting me started on this again :lol:
May I ask how much money you have tied up in all of these preparations?

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HAPPY EASTER

Post by supergrouper » Sat Mar 22, 2008 9:08 pm

HAPPY EASTER :)

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Post by NAVigator » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:25 pm

In this thread about preparing for disaster, the thinking seems to have turned toward using violence to protecting one's assets by keeping others away. Am I the only person who thinks about helping others during a time of widespread need? I have friends and neighbors that I care about. I would like to ensure their health and safety and provide what help I am able. Certainly the civil service sector would be spread thin and I would think that additional help would be appreciated. I will soon get my amateur radio license; this is a provision in our national and international agreements to provide assistance in emergencies. I would like to work on the side of help and aid in such perilous times as described here.

Jerry
"I was born with nothing and I have most of it left."

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Post by timid investor » Sat Mar 22, 2008 10:41 pm

NAVigator wrote:In this thread about preparing for disaster, the thinking seems to have turned toward using violence to protecting one's assets by keeping others away. Am I the only person who thinks about helping others during a time of widespread need? I have friends and neighbors that I care about. I would like to ensure their health and safety and provide what help I am able. Certainly the civil service sector would be spread thin and I would think that additional help would be appreciated. I will soon get my amateur radio license; this is a provision in our national and international agreements to provide assistance in emergencies. I would like to work on the side of help and aid in such perilous times as described here.

Jerry
What part of security do you not understand?
I may have it wrong but I don't think anybody was suggesting shooting "friends and neighbors".

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Post by tdhg566 » Sat Mar 22, 2008 11:35 pm

timid investor wrote:What part of security do you not understand?
I may have it wrong but I don't think anybody was suggesting shooting "friends and neighbors".
Amen. I didn't feel I needed to bring this up, but during Rita my family hosted another family and their dogs (from a "mandatory" evacuation zone" South of us) for three days until they could get back to their house. It was an "intimate" time LOL. We also spent many days packing up dozens of boxes of blankets and good clothes for Katrina victims, besides giving money.

So I'm glad to help out friends and neighbors, including people we don't know. But I draw the line when the safety of my family is threatened and polite society turns ugly. My friends, neighbors and deserving strangers don't become bands of looters and participate in mindless mobs.

How quickly the lessons of New Orleans and the Super Dome are forgotten. Not unlike investors drifting back into speculation I guess :lol:

As I said in the beginning, each of us has to decide what type of disaster we're preparing for, and what type of urban "black swan" event we might have to survive. No different than determining risk tolerance in a portfolio, except it's our personal safety and not just money that's being wagered. :wink:
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Post by tdhg566 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:05 am

NAVigator wrote:In this thread about preparing for disaster, the thinking seems to have turned toward using violence to protecting one's assets by keeping others away. ...
I applaud your efforts to get your ham radio license. I had the same idea. Even bought morse code training materials but could not sustain the interest in learning it. You are right, it will be a hugely valuable skill during a time of emergency.

To be very clear, the physical assets can burn. If society breaks down to the level we saw during Katrina (only takes 3 days without proper food and water), nothing will protect our suburban homes. They're just wood and brick and can easily be rebuilt. It's the personal safety of friends and family members I intend to guard. Have you forgotten about the rapes of women in the Super Dome, or the murders committed in the streets of New Orleans while the "authorities" were otherwise engaged? I've been in tactical weapons classes with LEOs from Baton Rouge who were deployed to New Orleans for patrol duty. Their stories would raise the hair on your neck. Your message says you're from Iowa. Maybe you dismissed what happened along the Gulf Coast just a few short years ago as being a unique or statistically remote event, unlikely to affect you. Being somewhat closer to the situation I've developed a different view. For both our sakes I hope your view of things comes to pass.

I make no apologies for how the events of this decade have shaped my thinking and behaviors. My daughter was in Washington Square Park and watched the twin towers fall in NYC on 9/11, and was part of the exodus of people walking across the bridges to get out of Manhattan. I know people who were in the towers, but were fortunate enough to get out, and some who were not. I watched the collapse of law and order in New Orleans, and what happened to the crime rate in Houston shortly thereafter when the refugees arrived. So these events are more than just statistics to me, more than 30 sec video clips on the 6pm news. And I refuse to be a victim, so I prepare, all the while hoping I'll never need to use my training and provisions. But like commodities in a portfolio when the down market hits, if disaster comes I'll be glad I'm somewhat ready, at least more ready than I might have been.
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Post by norak » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:05 am

I started a thread about the same issue. See

http://www.diehards.org/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

However, my thread was locked up by the admins while this one thrives. :(

What worried me is the rising price of food. I wish there was a food ETF that I can hold so that I can hedge against the rising cost of food.
"Divide what you have into seven parts, or even into eight, because you don't know what disaster may happen on earth." Ecclesiastes 11:2

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Post by tdhg566 » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:09 am

norak wrote:I started a thread about the same issue. See

http://www.diehards.org/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

However, my thread was locked up by the admins while this one thrives. :(

What worried me is the rising price of food. I wish there was a food ETF that I can hold so that I can hedge against the rising cost of food.
Oooohhhh. Conspiracy theory fodder! :lol:

Maybe the admins are on vacation this weekend :wink:

I don't know anything about the agriculture related ETFs, but isn't there one on livestock, and another on timber, and something on ag products in general? But why specifically food? Why not all commodities?
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Post by SoonerSunDevil » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:11 am

tdhg566 wrote:I watched the collapse of law and order in New Orleans, and what happened to the crime rate in Houston shortly thereafter when the refugees arrived. So these events are more than just statistics to me, more than 30 sec video clips on the 6pm news. And I refuse to be a victim, so I prepare, all the while hoping I'll never need to use my training and provisions.
Amen. As we like to say in Texas, "Praise the Lord and pass the ammo."

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Post by blood_donor » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:55 am

I think a prudent thing to do is to own a case or three of MREs just in case. I have 2 cases sitting in the basement, which I hope to never need to eat, but it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that they are there.

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Post by norak » Sun Mar 23, 2008 12:56 am

tdhg566 wrote:
norak wrote:I started a thread about the same issue. See

http://www.diehards.org/forum/viewtopic ... highlight=

However, my thread was locked up by the admins while this one thrives. :(
Oooohhhh. Conspiracy theory fodder! :lol:

Maybe the admins are on vacation this weekend :wink:
Maybe.

Or maybe lots of people here hate me. Perhaps that is why I am social phobic. See http://www.diehards.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13706
"Divide what you have into seven parts, or even into eight, because you don't know what disaster may happen on earth." Ecclesiastes 11:2

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Post by timid investor » Sun Mar 23, 2008 1:02 am

blood_donor wrote:I think a prudent thing to do is to own a case or three of MREs just in case. I have 2 cases sitting in the basement, which I hope to never need to eat, but it makes me feel warm and fuzzy that they are there.
MRE's are gourmet compared to C-rations, I was really impressed with the changes.

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Post by yesosaka » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:28 am

Remember the L.A. / Rodney King riots?

Burned out store...burned out store..burned out store...fully intact store manned by armed and dedicated Korean family.

7.62x.63, 7.62x39,5.56 all good choices. Don't forget 12 gauge shotgun, the great persuader.

One should take the time to familiarize and train with a variety of weapons. When it gets to the point of large groups using deadly force for protection, there will be plenty of weapons to pick up off the ground.

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Post by Index Fan » Sun Mar 23, 2008 8:50 am

NAVigator wrote:In this thread about preparing for disaster, the thinking seems to have turned toward using violence to protecting one's assets by keeping others away. Am I the only person who thinks about helping others during a time of widespread need?
Jerry

Not at all. In the aftermath of Katrina I remember reading about bands of neighbors that got together to get through the crisis, aiding each other. They also were armed, and that was a prudent thing. Think about the times there have been blackouts for hours, a relatively short time, in large cities and the looting that happens. A small percentage of people become looters or predators, but they definitely come out in situations such as the ones we are talking about. Having the ability to defend oneself in such situations is the ultimate in asset protection.
"Optimum est pati quod emendare non possis." | -Seneca

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Post by Valuethinker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:04 am

SamB wrote:
tdhg566 wrote: I am very concerned about urban unrest and uncontrolled mobs.
Our neighborhood was in the middle of the '67 riot in Detroit. The National Guard, and what is left of the police force either shows up after the fact, or is completely inadequate for the job. For some reason this threat is rarely alluded to, but it is very real. If 10 to 15% of the population goes on a rampage you are basically toast.

Sam
You know, for all that, how many people died in all the riots in the summer of 1968?

1,000-2,000? Across maybe 20 cities?

http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/n_index.htm - Newark: 23 dead in 6 days of rioting.

And how many of those were killed by law enforcement?

http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_index.htm - Detroit
Within 48 hours, the National Guard was mobilized, to be followed by the 82nd airborne on the riot’s fourth day. As police and military troops sought to regain control of the city, violence escalated. At the conclusion of 5 days of rioting, 43 people lay dead, 1189 injured and over 7000 people had been arrested.
43 people dead in 5 days, many killed by the authorities.


You can think of bad situations: being a Korean store owner in LA (but even there, they looted and burned stores, the rioters weren't directly focused on killing people). Similarly if you were a white driver caught in a neighbourhood that went up in flames.

But generally people who stayed indoors, kept their heads down, only got hurt if they were unlucky (stray bullets, burning buildings).

Remember those newspaper headliners about 'black looters' and 'white foragers'?

1,100 people died from all causes in Katrina in New Orleans: mostly drowned or killed in accidents, I would suspect. It's a horrifying number, but it wasn't the end of the world. Remembering this was one of the highest murder rate cities in the US *before* the catastrophe.

I think in the Superdome they could point to fewer than 10 actual deaths, not all of them violent? There were a lot of stories of rapes, doubtless some did occur. But given how hopeless and inept the authorities were, and the numbers involved, that isn't a huge number.

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Location: Metro Detroit, MI

Post by blood_donor » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:50 am

You are correcr, statistically any person has a low probability of being hurt or killed in civil unrest or natural disaster. However, the severity of being one of the unlucky is such that some insurance is not a bad way too get some peace of mind. Like home owner's insurance.

I do think that guys who stockpile weeks of food, a pound of gold coins, and enough ammo for a small war are overdoing it, but they aren't bothering me!

I think a prudent level is to be able to live without significant discomfort for three days, and basic necessities for a week. I advocate firearms in general, not just for very bad times.

The cost/benefit calculation is tricky. Food,water, batteries, radio, first aid kit are not too expensive.


Valuethinker wrote:
SamB wrote:
tdhg566 wrote: I am very concerned about urban unrest and uncontrolled mobs.
Our neighborhood was in the middle of the '67 riot in Detroit. The National Guard, and what is left of the police force either shows up after the fact, or is completely inadequate for the job. For some reason this threat is rarely alluded to, but it is very real. If 10 to 15% of the population goes on a rampage you are basically toast.

Sam
You know, for all that, how many people died in all the riots in the summer of 1968?

1,000-2,000? Across maybe 20 cities?

http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/n_index.htm - Newark: 23 dead in 6 days of rioting.

And how many of those were killed by law enforcement?

http://www.67riots.rutgers.edu/d_index.htm - Detroit
Within 48 hours, the National Guard was mobilized, to be followed by the 82nd airborne on the riot’s fourth day. As police and military troops sought to regain control of the city, violence escalated. At the conclusion of 5 days of rioting, 43 people lay dead, 1189 injured and over 7000 people had been arrested.
43 people dead in 5 days, many killed by the authorities.


You can think of bad situations: being a Korean store owner in LA (but even there, they looted and burned stores, the rioters weren't directly focused on killing people). Similarly if you were a white driver caught in a neighbourhood that went up in flames.

But generally people who stayed indoors, kept their heads down, only got hurt if they were unlucky (stray bullets, burning buildings).

Remember those newspaper headliners about 'black looters' and 'white foragers'?

1,100 people died from all causes in Katrina in New Orleans: mostly drowned or killed in accidents, I would suspect. It's a horrifying number, but it wasn't the end of the world. Remembering this was one of the highest murder rate cities in the US *before* the catastrophe.

I think in the Superdome they could point to fewer than 10 actual deaths, not all of them violent? There were a lot of stories of rapes, doubtless some did occur. But given how hopeless and inept the authorities were, and the numbers involved, that isn't a huge number.

timid investor
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:05 pm
Location: alabama

Post by timid investor » Sun Mar 23, 2008 9:59 am

Valuethinker wrote: There were a lot of stories of rapes, doubtless some did occur. But given how hopeless and inept the authorities were, and the numbers involved, that isn't a huge number.
I guess there are advantages to being butt ugly and smelly :lol:

Valuethinker
Posts: 39045
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Mar 23, 2008 10:08 am

timid investor wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: There were a lot of stories of rapes, doubtless some did occur. But given how hopeless and inept the authorities were, and the numbers involved, that isn't a huge number.
I guess there are advantages to being butt ugly and smelly :lol:
I was slightly imprecise 'that isn't a huge number' referred to the murders in the Superdome, rather than the rapes (which we'll never have an accurate count of, but we sure had lurid stories).

On your second point:

Ahh, ever visited a prison? Or a reform school?

It's not true that only the attractive get raped.

Jack
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:24 am

Post by Jack » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:27 am

timid investor wrote: I guess there are advantages to being butt ugly and smelly :lol:
Oh, that was clever.

The facts are that 26,000 people were sheltered in the Superdome. There were six deaths. Four of natural causes, one drug overdose and one suicide.

Many thousands more were at the convention center. There were four deaths of there, one of which was a homicide victim brought in from the outside. The others were natural causes.

No one was killed by violence in either location.

timid investor
Posts: 598
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:05 pm
Location: alabama

Post by timid investor » Sun Mar 23, 2008 11:50 am

Jack wrote:
timid investor wrote: I guess there are advantages to being butt ugly and smelly :lol:
Oh, that was clever.

The facts are that 26,000 people were sheltered in the Superdome. There were six deaths. Four of natural causes, one drug overdose and one suicide.

Many thousands more were at the convention center. There were four deaths of there, one of which was a homicide victim brought in from the outside. The others were natural causes.

No one was killed by violence in either location.
wow, you make it sound like a picnic.
You won't mind if I decline to attend the next lil block party will ya.

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