Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

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ram
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Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:26 pm

Over the years we have used many Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords and have been very satisfied with them. Our current vehicles are Honda Odyssey 2006 (65K miles) and Toyota Avalon 2006 (currently 130 K miles, bought in 2008 at 100K miles). We are very happy with the Avalon and the only real issue with Odyssey is the cabin noise at highway speed. We live in rural Wisconsin and it snows here for 5 months a year. We keep at least one vehicle with snow tires. We frequently drive 2 to 5 hours to nearby cities all year round and usually make a 3000- 4000 mile round trip most summers. We have no plans to drive these distances in winter. The Avalon will soon go to my adult daughter (away at med school) and so it is time for another car. We have cash but are open to using 0% financing if beneficial.

Budget – $ 55000 (say 50 K for car and 5 K for taxes, insurance)

Requirements: comfortable, quiet ride, should attenuate bumps in rural roads, long lasting reliability, low maintenance, infrequent need to visit the dealer (they are all more than 2 hrs away for luxury brands). Front wheel or all wheel drive.

Desirable: AWD, SUV for higher clearance on unclean snowy roads. (I will put snow tires on the new car), heated seats.

The Lexus brand seems to satisfy most of my needs. I am looking at Lexus LS 460 ( added - AWD only). My budget means it has to be 2011 or older which is fine with me. There wont be local private sellers and so I will need to buy from a dealer and I feel more comfortable buying certified preowned at this price point. I am going to Chicago next weekend and at the Lexus certified website I see two LS 460, both 2011 models, 45K miles for about $42000. This seems good to me. The lowest 2012 model (18K miles) is $52000 and so the 2011 models seem like a better value. I looked at the certified preowned prices of ES 350 and RX 350 and these were not significantly discounted to the new car price. If I buy these I plan to go for new. The 2011 LS 460’s are $30,000 below the new car price. Your thoughts are welcome.

What are your experiences with Lexus certified. Both the 2011 models seem to be on the lot for at least 4 months as seen from trees in early spring in the dealer pictures. Lexus is offering ‘specials’ on these 2 vehicles in the form of 0.9 % loan as compared to 1.9 or 2.9 % on other certified vehicles. What has been your experience with price negotiation and can the above data be used to negotiate a lower cash price.
What are your thoughts on the relative merits of used LS460 verses new ES and RX.

The other cars we considered were: Acura MDX (but we do not need a 7 seater), Acura RDX ( but it lacks the reputation of the MDX), Mercedes GLK (but it lacks the long term reliability of the Japanese brands and needs frequent costly dealer visits)
Last edited by ram on Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Sconie » Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:42 pm

Just FWIW, I had a Toyota 4Runner Limited, then "upgraded" (or so I thought) to an RX350 and now am in the process of going back to another 4Runner Limited. Lexus RX vehicles are very "cushy" and comfortable---and with lots of insulation, they are nice and quiet---but I found the 4Runner line to be much more robust and heavy duty----a bit more reliable and 'capable,' too----without the sky-high Lexus (dealer) maintenance expense.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Hoi Polloi » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:14 pm

Like you, we have owned a number of Honda and Toyota products well past their warranty period with no expensive maintenance surprises, unlike previous Volkswagen or Audi products. I live in the Midwest as well, and currently drive a 2011 ES 350, but we have fewer months of winter and less snow than you describe. Given your criteria I would go with a new RX 350 and never look back.

Best of luck with your decision!

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Johno » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:22 pm

We have the GX460's predecessor, GX470, bought new in 2005, only 61k miles 9.5 yrs but never a problem except normal replacement parts. And we didn't need new brake pads till the 40's k and just replaced the tires with plenty of tread left, just due to old age, so we've have good experience even with the wearing parts. I wasn't originally crazy about the style and big SUV type: we live in a somewhat snowy area but nothing like WI and it's urban. The 4WD has only become a real advantage since we stopped garaging the car (when it reached 8, and when they also tore down the garage to put up another high rise in the neighborhood). The car can just motor right out of a parking space even after being totally buried by a snow plow in a heavy snow, just lock the differential and put it in low range, only have to shovel a way to the door of the car. Originally my wife wanted it, but it's grown on me. We're more satisfied with it than any other car we've had. I don't agree with the common idea that Lexus' are just dolled up Toyota's after having had both. I realize (engineer by background myself) that they have basic platforms and many mechanical items in common, but I think there's real value with Lexus. The main caveat is as was mentioned, dealer maintenance charges are ree-diculous. We took it there all during its warranty and for major intervals since, for the assurance, again it's mainly my wife's car. But the dealer service is quite overpriced. You can of course buy the Lexus and take it to a cooperative Toyota dealer for the service package on the equivalent Toyota, rather than buying the Toyota. That's what I'm going to do from here on.

But sorry I don't have experience with certified pre-owned of any brand. I've only bought (regular old) used cars and new cars.
Last edited by Johno on Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:22 pm

Hoi Polloi wrote:Like you, we have owned a number of Honda and Toyota products well past their warranty period with no expensive maintenance surprises, unlike previous Volkswagen or Audi products. I live in the Midwest as well, and currently drive a 2011 ES 350, but we have fewer months of winter and less snow than you describe. Given your criteria I would go with a new RX 350 and never look back.

Best of luck with your decision!

Thanks Hoi.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Sun Sep 14, 2014 3:41 pm

I had a thread on negotiating for a luxury SUV: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=137219

I think the asking price is a joke at Lexus dealers, so try to negotiate to 15% below the internet-posted price. In our area Lexus has 0% financing, so do your research because 0.9% sounds too high to me.

I have purchased two CPO Lexus SUVs: 2001 RX300 and 2011 RX350. I can recommend them. One is 13 years old now and still being driven. They get about 20 mpg in suburban driving.

On the 2011 cars, I was told by the dealer that this was the time of the Fukushima disaster and the cars shipped then were not necessarily equipped for the US market. For instance, lots of folks want Sat-Nav, so 2011 without Sat-Nav languish on the used car lot. One can get a 2011 RX350 for about $30K OTD.

Another tip: Search nationwide for your car and not just locally. Tell dealer that you travel enough that you are willing to pick up your car in Texas where the prices are cheaper.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by letsgobobby » Sun Sep 14, 2014 4:10 pm

The new 2015 Subaru outback got rave reviews from USA Today, and was particularly noted for being dead quiet. They have been reliable and of course their AWD is top notch.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/col ... /15448827/

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:04 pm

livesoft wrote:I had a thread on negotiating for a luxury SUV: viewtopic.php?f=11&t=137219

I think the asking price is a joke at Lexus dealers, so try to negotiate to 15% below the internet-posted price. In our area Lexus has 0% financing, so do your research because 0.9% sounds too high to me.

I have purchased two CPO Lexus SUVs: 2001 RX300 and 2011 RX350. I can recommend them. One is 13 years old now and still being driven. They get about 20 mpg in suburban driving.

On the 2011 cars, I was told by the dealer that this was the time of the Fukushima disaster and the cars shipped then were not necessarily equipped for the US market. For instance, lots of folks want Sat-Nav, so 2011 without Sat-Nav languish on the used car lot. One can get a 2011 RX350 for about $30K OTD.

Another tip: Search nationwide for your car and not just locally. Tell dealer that you travel enough that you are willing to pick up your car in Texas where the prices are cheaper.

Thanks livesoft. Do you recommend I start the negotiation even before I see the car. That is going to be next week. I read the linked thread and will start with the 15% off.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:43 pm

Well, in theory as soon as you contact them, you are negotiating with them. They will know you are a physician, for instance.

I would let them know that you are seriously looking, want a good deal, are willing to act quickly, but only if the deal is good. So go ahead and do a test drive, but don't buy that day. Unless they drop their pants. You can look up the VIN number with google and see in which "for sale" lists the cars show up. You can then search the entire USA for the same cars and build a spreadsheet of mileages, damage, features, color (interior/exterior), and most importantly: prices. You can look up for free the carfax reports on the cars before you go. Look at truecar.com, edmunds.com, kbr.com, etc.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Browser » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:06 pm

Where you live, who is going to do the maintenance on a Lexus? As I recall, the warranty for Lexus is 4 years, so you might have a little left on a 2011 but it will need to go to a Lexus dealer for warranty service I imagine. Also, another poster mentioned the sky high maintenance costs on Lexus, which I've heard also. If you're willing to part with up to $42K, you might want to consider a new Highlander since you've liked Toyotas. I drove a 2015 and found it to have a very nice ride over bumpy surfaces, was very quiet also. I drove the Limited with leather and the goodies and very nice interior also. Not as sporty as Lexus but if I lived in rural Wisconsin, sporty would probably not be way up the list of desirable characteristics.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Sun Sep 14, 2014 7:40 pm

Maintenance costs on a Lexus do not have to be sky high. Two things that I have done are (a) decline suggested service and (b) negotiate rates and services to a lower price. I can say that my 2001 had no service (including no oil changes) for years 11-12 of its life and it is still going strong.

My colleague has an expensive Highlander that cost more than a Lexus.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:20 pm

Browser wrote:Where you live, who is going to do the maintenance on a Lexus? As I recall, the warranty for Lexus is 4 years, so you might have a little left on a 2011 but it will need to go to a Lexus dealer for warranty service I imagine. Also, another poster mentioned the sky high maintenance costs on Lexus, which I've heard also. If you're willing to part with up to $42K, you might want to consider a new Highlander since you've liked Toyotas. I drove a 2015 and found it to have a very nice ride over bumpy surfaces, was very quiet also. I drove the Limited with leather and the goodies and very nice interior also. Not as sporty as Lexus but if I lived in rural Wisconsin, sporty would probably not be way up the list of desirable characteristics.

There are 2 independent mechanics in town who service 'foreign' cars. They are somewhat costlier than others but much cheaper than a Lexus dealer. Importantly they know their limitations and upfront tell what work needs to go to the dealer. Though this is a small town it has a large medical complex and many (for a small town) Lexuses, BMWs , Audis and Mercedes etc cars. Of note there are no Toyota or Honda dealers in town either. In general the mechanics very frequently refer German cars to the dealer compared to Japanese cars. One of them has done an excellent job on my Honda and Toyota. I frequently visit Madison where my daughter studies and it has a Lexus dealership. I am not unduly worried about maintenance of a Lexus but I am about BMW and Mercedes.
I agree with you that I am not looking for 'sporty'.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Sun Sep 14, 2014 8:30 pm

livesoft wrote:Maintenance costs on a Lexus do not have to be sky high. Two things that I have done are (a) decline suggested service and (b) negotiate rates and services to a lower price. I can say that my 2001 had no service (including no oil changes) for years 11-12 of its life and it is still going strong.

My colleague has an expensive Highlander that cost more than a Lexus.

Good to know. Colleagues who own a Lexus have not been concerned about maintenance costs either, but they do not have Boglehead values.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by strafe » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:00 pm

The LS460 is rear wheel drive but will be just fine in the bad weather if you use winter tires. Ground clearance not much worse than the RX.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Browser » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:45 am

I've not owned a Lexus, so don't really know much about the maintenance costs, except that I ran into a couple who had just purchased a new Acura RDX I was asking them about. They were former Lexus owners who liked their vehicles but were tired of the $80 oil changes and other expensive maintenance on it. They were ready for a new vehicle and opted for Acura because the maintenance costs seemed much lower. To maintain your warranty on a new vehicle, it's always better to have a dealer do the scheduled and unscheduled maintenance for purposes of documentation. You can have it done elsewhere, but you might have more trouble with warranty coverage if that becomes an issue. There's no Acura dealer in my area, so I talked to an Acura dealer in another area where I was car shopping about having scheduled maintenance done at a Honda service facility instead. They flat told me that wouldn't cut it as far as warranty coverage was concerned. Rather than try to sort that out, I decided that it might be less hassle to just buy a brand that I can have serviced at a dealership in my area.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by opus360 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:26 pm

None of the Lexus cars will be low on maintenance cost. Maintenance will be infrequent but cost will be high each time.

ES = this was refreshed a couple of years ago, and lost the Lexus like noise isolation and ride quality. It will be a step back from the Avalon.

RX = you already got the Minivan, why buy this one?

LS = Top notch ride and noise isolation. Since you frequently drive long distance, ride and front seat comfort would be very important. This is the only one I pick amongst these three.

Amongst the German cars, the Audi A6 and MB E-class will be excellent choices as well. Keep options light, bargain hard, with luck, you will be able to get one brand new at your budget or a few grand more than your budged. I'll take this over the LS, as I value handling and I'll get a new car. Current LS design is looking long in the tooth.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by inbox788 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 2:34 pm

Browser wrote:I've not owned a Lexus, so don't really know much about the maintenance costs, except that I ran into a couple who had just purchased a new Acura RDX I was asking them about. They were former Lexus owners who liked their vehicles but were tired of the $80 oil changes and other expensive maintenance on it. They were ready for a new vehicle and opted for Acura because the maintenance costs seemed much lower. To maintain your warranty on a new vehicle, it's always better to have a dealer do the scheduled and unscheduled maintenance for purposes of documentation. You can have it done elsewhere, but you might have more trouble with warranty coverage if that becomes an issue. There's no Acura dealer in my area, so I talked to an Acura dealer in another area where I was car shopping about having scheduled maintenance done at a Honda service facility instead. They flat told me that wouldn't cut it as far as warranty coverage was concerned. Rather than try to sort that out, I decided that it might be less hassle to just buy a brand that I can have serviced at a dealership in my area.


That's just BS! It's no different than dealers saying you can't use independent mechanics for basic maintenance.
http://www.consumer.ftc.gov/articles/01 ... aintenance

For the first few years, there's is basically NO maintenance, but oil changes.
http://owners.acura.com/service-mainten ... &model=RDX

You may not even need to rotate tires!?! :shock:
https://www.google.com/search?q=don%27t+rotate+tires

If you don't rotate your tires, you might have trouble with warranty claims on the tires or suspension (probably not), but unrelated engine and transmission warranties are fully in effect!

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Browser » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:07 pm

I'll check out those links. I can hope that the only maintenance will be oil changes, that sort of thing, but I thought there was a regular maintenance schedule, 15K, 30K, that sort of thing. Posted in the owner's manual. Has that changed? But I'm also worried about unscheduled maintenance that might occur during the warranty. First of all, only an Acura service department can do that under warranty coverage. Not even Honda service can do it because they don't stock Acura parts and there is apparently no convenient arrangement between Honda and Acura dealers that let's this happen. In addition, if work were performed by a non-Acura service department it might be a hassle to document that it doesn't void the warranty. I'm sure these guys would be happy to void your warranty if they can do it. All in all, it didn't seem to be worth the possible hassle to me, and I don't want to drive around for 4-6 years hoping that I'm not going to need warranty work. The warranty is supposed to be for peace of mind, not something else to worry about.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Crimsontide » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:20 pm

opus360 wrote:ES = this was refreshed a couple of years ago, and lost the Lexus like noise isolation and ride quality. It will be a step back from the Avalon.


Do you know this from driving one or did you just read this somewhere? I'm asking because I'm thinking of buying a CPO 2013 model.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by woodguy00 » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:26 pm

We bought a 2009 RX350 as CPO from a dealer in early 2012. We paid about $4k below asking price. Best vehicle we've ever owned. Normal maintenance so far (oil changes, tire rotations and a front end alignment.) all done by a small local independent shop. Actually haven't been back to the dealer about 1 1/2 hours away.

The RX350 is very comfortable driving while having AWD for snow and dirt roads. Incredibly quiet. I'd buy another. The purchase process was relatively painless.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:40 pm

woodguy00 wrote:We bought a 2009 RX350 as CPO from a dealer in early 2012. We paid about $4k below asking price. Best vehicle we've ever owned. Normal maintenance so far (oil changes, tire rotations and a front end alignment.) all done by a small local independent shop. Actually haven't been back to the dealer about 1 1/2 hours away.

The RX350 is very comfortable driving while having AWD for snow and dirt roads. Incredibly quiet. I'd buy another. The purchase process was relatively painless.

That is a very reassuring observation. Thanks.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:41 pm

ram wrote:I read the linked thread and will start with the 15% off.

I missed the above until now. If you start at 15% off, you will end up higher. You might wish to start at 20% off.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:39 am

woodguy00 wrote:We bought a 2009 RX350 as CPO from a dealer in early 2012. We paid about $4k below asking price. Best vehicle we've ever owned. Normal maintenance so far (oil changes, tire rotations and a front end alignment.) all done by a small local independent shop. Actually haven't been back to the dealer about 1 1/2 hours away.

The RX350 is very comfortable driving while having AWD for snow and dirt roads. Incredibly quiet. I'd buy another. The purchase process was relatively painless.


Wow - it sounds like you got a pretty good deal on this, woodguy00. Would you mind sharing the mileage, trim level, and price paid before tax?

Thanks,

K.I.S.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Keep It Simple » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:06 am

livesoft wrote: I have purchased two CPO Lexus SUVs: 2001 RX300 and 2011 RX350.


Livesoft - what would you say are the main differences between the RX300 vs The RX 350? Did the RX 300 or RX 350 have any unusual maintenance issues at all? If you had to recommend a (2006) lower mileage(50,000-70,000) RX 330 vs a same mileage 2009 RX 350 which would you recommend? Why?

Also, how many miles would you expect to run these into the ground?

Thanks,

K.I.S.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Tue Sep 16, 2014 10:24 am

The main difference is 10 years.

The 2011 RX 350 is bigger. The features that my cars differ in: Newer car has knee airbags, backup camera, bluetooth, nearness sensors for parking assist, side mirrors tilt when backing up, power tailgate lift, keyless (finger touch) door locking, cooled/heated front seats. Things I don't use: Satellite radio. Things it doesn't have: Satellite navigation, LED lighting.

Old 2001 had power raise/lower antenna. In the 2011, the fixed antenna is built-in somewhere.

The 2001 just had a timing belt/chain(?) replaced last April at about 95K miles, so water pump replaced and an oil leak that was fixed since my kids starting driving/gunning it. It also has a blown speaker due to daughter's listening habits. Standard maintenance: battery, brakes, tires. It has leaky rear shocks which I have chosen not to worry about.

2006 versus 2009? Who knows? I suppose it will depend on the value which means price and how scratched up the darn thing is. I would probably not buy either one myself because I don't need to save that much money.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by htdrag11 » Tue Sep 16, 2014 11:49 am

I got lots of help from livesoft when I bought a 2012 RX CPO in August 2014.

The sticker price was $37,700 but out the door (not counting taxes, license, registration, etc.) was $32,500 with 20k miles but got some minor scratches; also I did not get the navigation package nor the parking assist feature. The deal was good because I lost in my trade-in big time. I was tired of German repairing costs, especially electronic.

Though there was no accident on the car per Carfax, I did not find the insulation or the quietness comparable to a sedan (my friend's 2014 Honda Accord hybrid was quieter). However, the seats are more German like and firm, great for long ride.

So ignore the dealer's asking price and use a combination of Edmunds, kbb and Blue Book as sources. As for driving, I do miss my Bimmers. The steering wheel is partially wood and leather which is nice to touch and look, but there is absolutely no road feel. Being a 2012 model, the backup camera's tiny screen on the rear view mirror was a joke.

I've put in 3,000 miles trouble free. Good luck in your search.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by takeshi » Tue Sep 16, 2014 12:53 pm

opus360 wrote:RX = you already got the Minivan, why buy this one?

The RX isn't a minivan.

Browser wrote:If you're willing to part with up to $42K, you might want to consider a new Highlander since you've liked Toyotas. I drove a 2015 and found it to have a very nice ride over bumpy surfaces, was very quiet also. I drove the Limited with leather and the goodies and very nice interior also. Not as sporty as Lexus

Nor is it sporty.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by woodguy00 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:54 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
woodguy00 wrote:We bought a 2009 RX350 as CPO from a dealer in early 2012. We paid about $4k below asking price. Best vehicle we've ever owned. Normal maintenance so far (oil changes, tire rotations and a front end alignment.) all done by a small local independent shop. Actually haven't been back to the dealer about 1 1/2 hours away.

The RX350 is very comfortable driving while having AWD for snow and dirt roads. Incredibly quiet. I'd buy another. The purchase process was relatively painless.


Wow - it sounds like you got a pretty good deal on this, woodguy00. Would you mind sharing the mileage, trim level, and price paid before tax?

Thanks,

K.I.S.



Keep in mind this was for a 2009 I purchased in Feb 2012. It was the prior generation model which reviews (and my test drives) said had a softer ride. If I remember correctly we paid right at $28,000 before tax vs asking price of 32,000. It was the base model with leather but without nav or all the electronic stuff. Right at 25K miles on the odometer. I always review the KBB, nadaguides and edmunds pricing guides when appraising a used car. I believe they had the CPO price averaging at about $31K at the time. We have been very happy with the vehicle - 60K on it now.

I had never purchased CPO before but would do so now. I do like the extended warranty this brings - fortunately we haven't needed it.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by mbk734 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:16 am

Just remember you are paying extra for the L on your grill! The Honda Pilot is a tank and the EX-L trim with 4WD is very nice. You can buy it brand new for less than a 4 year old Lexus, used for even less. More reliable, will last longer, cheaper to maintain/repair, lower cost of owning, lower depreciation. That being said, the Lexus is a sharp car and get what you want. :beer
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Keep It Simple » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:31 am

mbk734 wrote:The Honda Pilot is a tank and the EX-L trim with 4WD is very nice. You can buy it brand new for less than a 4 year old Lexus, used for even less. More reliable, will last longer, cheaper to maintain/repair, lower cost of owning, lower depreciation. That being said, the Lexus is a sharp car and get what you want. :beer


I don't think this is exactly true. The 4WD Pilot EX-L starts at $36,970.00. Where do you find the 4 year old LX 350 for more $37,000.00? Also, I believe data will show that both the LX 350 and the Pilot are at the top of reliability charts.

I do agree you will pay more for maintenance on the Lexus if you use a dealer.

The Pilot is a tank and very reliable...that we can agree on!

K.I.S.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:10 am

The routine maintenance on mother's IS is done at the Toyota dealership across the street from the Lexus dealership. Warranty items are done at the Lexus dealership. So far it has worked great for us and has kept costs down. She has a CPO 2010 IS 250.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by tim1999 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:11 am

I vote for the LS460 with AWD and winter tires. That's one smooth reliable ride.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by livesoft » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:17 am

mbk734 wrote:Just remember you are paying extra for the L on your grill!

No 20-year-old co-ed has ever said to me, "Oooooh! You drive a Honda Pilot!"
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by Browser » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:41 am

livesoft wrote:
mbk734 wrote:Just remember you are paying extra for the L on your grill!

No 20-year-old co-ed has ever said to me, "Oooooh! You drive a Honda Pilot!"

Do you drive one?
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by mbk734 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:43 am

Keep It Simple wrote:
mbk734 wrote:The Honda Pilot is a tank and the EX-L trim with 4WD is very nice. You can buy it brand new for less than a 4 year old Lexus, used for even less. More reliable, will last longer, cheaper to maintain/repair, lower cost of owning, lower depreciation. That being said, the Lexus is a sharp car and get what you want. :beer


I don't think this is exactly true. The 4WD Pilot EX-L starts at $36,970.00. Where do you find the 4 year old LX 350 for more $37,000.00? Also, I believe data will show that both the LX 350 and the Pilot are at the top of reliability charts.

I do agree you will pay more for maintenance on the Lexus if you use a dealer.

The Pilot is a tank and very reliable...that we can agree on!

K.I.S.


The used car he is looking at is the 2011 LS 460 (Released in 2010, 4 years old). He said it was 42,000 + tax, fees. Pilot EX-L 4WD is ~39k OTD.

livesoft wrote:
mbk734 wrote:Just remember you are paying extra for the L on your grill!

No 20-year-old co-ed has ever said to me, "Oooooh! You drive a Honda Pilot!"


That's what the Honda CBR 600RR is for! Can you tell I am a Honda fan? :D
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by stingray5688 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:59 am

Just to reiterate, if you get the lexus (which i absolutely recommend over the HONDA PILOT :oops: ), maintenance costs do not have to be high.

1. Do as livesoft suggests and refuse the recommended service (5K service, 10K service, etc...) and ask for exactly what you want done. And negotiate it down. Oil changes in a Lexus are no different than oil changes in any other car. Read the maintenance schedule and realize what is actually recommended to be changed/replaced and not just 'inspected.'

2. Take it to a toyota dealership. all lexus parts are toyota parts that use toyota part numbers and come in toyota branded boxes. Obviously, have warranty and recall work done at the lexus dealership.

3. Do it yourself or find a good independent. I do the maintenance on my IS350 and it's a piece of cake. Oil from costco is cheap. Easiest and cleanest oil change i've ever done.

Paying $100+ for an oil change is for suckers.

ETA: If you're a forum junkie, www.clublexus.com is a great resource.
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by mbk734 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:13 am

stingray5688 wrote:Just to reiterate, if you get the lexus (which i absolutely recommend over the HONDA PILOT :oops: ), maintenance costs do not have to be high.



If you really want a pretentious "Luxury" SUV :oops: status symbol to get you from point A to B, I would go for a Certified Used BMW X5 (Ultimate driving machine). Lexus is for wannabe's!
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by stingray5688 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 10:25 am

mbk734 wrote:If you really want a pretentious "Luxury" SUV :oops: status symbol to get you from point A to B, I would go for a Certified Used BMW X5 (Ultimate driving machine). Lexus is for wannabe's!


OK. That's fine. But you have now introduced a Honda Pilot, BMW X5, and motorcycle into this thread, none of which the OP seems interested in, given their required/desired features.
"Don't be emotional about investing. So even a first investment should not be exciting." - livesoft

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by jlawrence01 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:00 am

woodguy00 wrote:Keep in mind this was for a 2009 I purchased in Feb 2012. It was the prior generation model which reviews (and my test drives) said had a softer ride. If I remember correctly we paid right at $28,000 before tax vs asking price of 32,000. It was the base model with leather but without nav or all the electronic stuff. Right at 25K miles on the odometer. I always review the KBB, nadaguides and edmunds pricing guides when appraising a used car. I believe they had the CPO price averaging at about $31K at the time. We have been very happy with the vehicle - 60K on it now.

I had never purchased CPO before but would do so now. I do like the extended warranty this brings - fortunately we haven't needed it.


That was a good deal, a very good one. I would say that if anyone is buying an RX 350 for only three years or so, that you should get the navigation system and back-up camera package. Vehicles without these have lower resale values as MOST buyers are looking for those features.
Last edited by jlawrence01 on Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by matjen » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:08 am

I would go for the pre-owned Lexus 460 of the choices you gave. However, if buying a new car I would take a long hard look at the new Hyundai Genesis. Hyundai is poised to do to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. This car is getting great reviews, has a long warranty, and should be cheaper to maintain than a European car.

50K will get you a loaded V6 model with AWD if you want. It will have all the gadgets in the world on it and I think it is absolutely gorgeous. Here is a detailed review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZXf0J ... BGJ1CRJ_ML
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by amoeba » Wed Sep 17, 2014 11:32 am

If you are considering the new ES 350, I would suggest that you also test drive a new Toyota Avalon. Its essentially the same car for about $5000 less.

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by mbk734 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:00 pm

stingray5688 wrote:OK. That's fine. But you have now introduced a Honda Pilot, BMW X5, and motorcycle into this thread, none of which the OP seems interested in, given their required/desired features.


Re-read the original post:

ram wrote:Over the years we have used many Toyota Camrys and Honda Accords and have been very satisfied with them.

Budget – $ 55000 (say 50 K for car and 5 K for taxes, insurance)

Requirements: comfortable, quiet ride, should attenuate bumps in rural roads, long lasting reliability, low maintenance, infrequent need to visit the dealer (they are all more than 2 hrs away for luxury brands). Front wheel or all wheel drive.

Desirable: AWD, SUV for higher clearance on unclean snowy roads. (I will put snow tires on the new car), heated seats.


Both a used X5 and a new Honda Pilot fit all of these requirements. The motorcycle comment was directed at livesoft dissing the Pilot for not being a chick magnet 8-) No disrespect meant to anyone! I just feel that a luxury vehicle is one of the worst financial choices you can make, particularly an SUV (not very fun to drive).
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by jlawrence01 » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:14 pm

matjen wrote:I would go for the pre-owned Lexus 460 of the choices you gave. However, if buying a new car I would take a long hard look at the new Hyundai Genesis. Hyundai is poised to do to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. This car is getting great reviews, has a long warranty, and should be cheaper to maintain than a European car.


I thought the car drove well BUT the quality of the models in its first two years 2011-2012 were underwhelming:


http://autos.aol.com/cars-Hyundai-Genes ... liability/

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:18 pm

strafe wrote:The LS460 is rear wheel drive but will be just fine in the bad weather if you use winter tires. Ground clearance not much worse than the RX.

Also available as AWD.
Ram

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:19 pm

matjen wrote:I would go for the pre-owned Lexus 460 of the choices you gave. However, if buying a new car I would take a long hard look at the new Hyundai Genesis. Hyundai is poised to do to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. This car is getting great reviews, has a long warranty, and should be cheaper to maintain than a European car.

50K will get you a loaded V6 model with AWD if you want. It will have all the gadgets in the world on it and I think it is absolutely gorgeous. Here is a detailed review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZXf0J ... BGJ1CRJ_ML


Hyundai genesis eliminated because it is only available as RWD and not ideal on snow.
Ram

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:21 pm

livesoft wrote:
ram wrote:I read the linked thread and will start with the 15% off.

I missed the above until now. If you start at 15% off, you will end up higher. You might wish to start at 20% off.

Will start at 20% off and try to get at least 15% off.
R
Ram

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:23 pm

stingray5688 wrote:Just to reiterate, if you get the lexus (which i absolutely recommend over the HONDA PILOT :oops: ), maintenance costs do not have to be high.

1. Do as livesoft suggests and refuse the recommended service (5K service, 10K service, etc...) and ask for exactly what you want done. And negotiate it down. Oil changes in a Lexus are no different than oil changes in any other car. Read the maintenance schedule and realize what is actually recommended to be changed/replaced and not just 'inspected.'

2. Take it to a toyota dealership. all lexus parts are toyota parts that use toyota part numbers and come in toyota branded boxes. Obviously, have warranty and recall work done at the lexus dealership.

3. Do it yourself or find a good independent. I do the maintenance on my IS350 and it's a piece of cake. Oil from costco is cheap. Easiest and cleanest oil change i've ever done.

Paying $100+ for an oil change is for suckers.

ETA: If you're a forum junkie, http://www.clublexus.com is a great resource.


1&2- that's the plan.
3.Will go to Independent. Thx.
Ram

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by matjen » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:30 pm

ram wrote:
matjen wrote:I would go for the pre-owned Lexus 460 of the choices you gave. However, if buying a new car I would take a long hard look at the new Hyundai Genesis. Hyundai is poised to do to Lexus what Lexus did to the Germans. This car is getting great reviews, has a long warranty, and should be cheaper to maintain than a European car.

50K will get you a loaded V6 model with AWD if you want. It will have all the gadgets in the world on it and I think it is absolutely gorgeous. Here is a detailed review.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWZXf0J ... BGJ1CRJ_ML


Hyundai genesis eliminated because it is only available as RWD and not ideal on snow.


It is available in AWD. The 6 cylinder version is (310 HP). The 8 cylinder isn't. $40,500 in AWD trim. High 40s completely loaded with every conceivable gadget.

https://www.hyundaiusa.com/build-your-h ... sem_google
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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by ram » Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:42 pm

htdrag11 wrote:I got lots of help from livesoft when I bought a 2012 RX CPO in August 2014.

The sticker price was $37,700 but out the door (not counting taxes, license, registration, etc.) was $32,500 with 20k miles but got some minor scratches; also I did not get the navigation package nor the parking assist feature. The deal was good because I lost in my trade-in big time. I was tired of German repairing costs, especially electronic.

Though there was no accident on the car per Carfax, I did not find the insulation or the quietness comparable to a sedan (my friend's 2014 Honda Accord hybrid was quieter). However, the seats are more German like and firm, great for long ride.

So ignore the dealer's asking price and use a combination of Edmunds, kbb and Blue Book as sources. As for driving, I do miss my Bimmers. The steering wheel is partially wood and leather which is nice to touch and look, but there is absolutely no road feel. Being a 2012 model, the backup camera's tiny screen on the rear view mirror was a joke.

I've put in 3,000 miles trouble free. Good luck in your search.

Nice info to have before going to the dealer. Thx.
Ram

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Re: Car-Certified Lexus LS 460 Vs New ES 350 Vs New RX 350

Post by 2beachcombers » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:32 am

livesoft wrote:Maintenance costs on a Lexus do not have to be sky high. Two things that I have done are (a) decline suggested service and (b) negotiate rates and services to a lower price. I can say that my 2001 had no service (including no oil changes) for years 11-12 of its life and it is still going strong.

My colleague has an expensive Highlander that cost more than a Lexus.


I have had 2 - 450's since 1992--never did any service on either, never had a major failure(auto tilt stering failed on one--cost was 10min and a 10 cent washer). Just change oil and tires and window washer. :happy

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