Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

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Momus
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Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Momus »

I am going to be 30 years old this year. I have a net worth around $1M (real estate equity, stocks, bonds, ROTH IRA, 401k).

I am thinking of marrying a girl who has an income around $60-120k/year, depending if she works fulltime/partime. She has 0 assets and around 250k student loan debt. Do you think I need a prenup?

I don't want to think about ever having a divorce but in life, shit happens and I busted my ass and saved like crazy for that net worth -_-; Do you guys think 1M is not worth asking a prenup, given she makes a decent income also? At what situation, do you think it is worth considering a prenup?


Adding:
- I live in California
- I will get inheritance if my parents pass away, I am guessing around $2M+
Last edited by Momus on Mon May 26, 2014 12:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
LeeMKE
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by LeeMKE »

Yes, you both need the exercise of doing a pre-nip. You both will have to consider questions you may not have considered yet, and will have to confirm your finances specifically.

But you can do your own and skip the attorneys. (Will it be as strong in a court of law, if your educational levels are essentially equal, then yes.)

http://www.nolo.com/products/prenuptial ... -pnup.html
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Louis Winthorpe III
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

If the issue is net worth rather than income, then I would say it depends on where you live. If you're in a community property state, you can probably skip it.
steve_14
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by steve_14 »

There have been thousands of posts on this topic, try a search. Some good ones here: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 6&start=50 .
denovo
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by denovo »

Yes..
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Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
steve_14
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by steve_14 »

Professor Emeritus wrote:If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
Unfortunately, experienced investors know that the actual result always varies from the expectation, half the time in the wrong direction. I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
lululu
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by lululu »

steve_14 wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
Unfortunately, experienced investors know that the actual result always varies from the expectation, half the time in the wrong direction. I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
Yes, Professor Emeritus is lucky in his marriage, from everything he's posted. Other people, even when they go into a marriage completely committed, find that things happen like when they're forty or so the partner walks out the door. They will be much better off then if there has been financial forethought.

The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
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bottlecap
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by bottlecap »

Consult a lawyer to discuss. There are a lot of naysayers, but they don't see the big picture. If you get married "without" one, the state will determine the division of your assets upon divorce, so you will basically have one anyway. It may be that your state law will protect your assets, if kept separately, and you don't need one. Or, you may wish to provide for your new wife more than state law does. If the laws are unfavorable, you may want to work out something less. You don't know what you're facing and how to protect your assets against divorce until to find out.

Do not prepare a pre-nup on your own. If you decide to get one, you both need a lawyer. Things are state law specific, but courts aren't usually afraid to throw such agreements out if there is any inkling that the parties didn't have a full and fair opportunity to know what they were signing. As the person with the assets, I wouldn't be cheap about it given that landscape.

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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by tim1999 »

You absolutely need one. Do it right - each of you needs an attorney, you need to do it well in advance of the wedding, etc.
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

I find it interesting that you say "at only $1M net worth." At the age of 30, that is quite substantial. I'd say you are in a bit of a bind - to be quite frank. While I am a believer in a pre-nup if one marries later in life without the expectation of having children, I think it's a slippery slope in your situation. Have you discussed the topic with your prospective bride?
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SquawkIdent
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by SquawkIdent »

Yes...a thousand times yes. Good luck.
asc8u
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by asc8u »

steve_14 wrote: I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
I'd argue insuring a car isn't the same as insuring a relationship. Having insurance wont' affect your car's performance, but a prenup could seriously affect their relationship.

To the OP, from a financial perspective, it may make sense.
But I suggest you get relationship advice (and premarital counselling) elsewhere.
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

asc8u wrote:
steve_14 wrote: I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
I'd argue insuring a car isn't the same as insuring a relationship. Having insurance wont' affect your car's performance, but a prenup could seriously affect their relationship.
I don't disagree with this but it has always bothered me. I know the argument is "if you insist on a pre-nup, that means you don't trust me." But that attitude ignores the realities of human nature and human relationships. There is a reason the divorce rate is north of 50%. It doesn't mean that half of the folks that marry are untrustworthy. It reflects the fact the people change and relationships change (and that people no longer almost universally view marriage as a sacred vow - let's face it). I for one would seek to protect myself in the presence of this reality. But as I said above, it can be a slippery slope because I do think there is a perception that a pre-nup somehow reflects distrust. I do believe that a woman would feel better if ownership of the house and the bank account were shared equally, and not doing so can lead to resentment and discontent. But the truth is he earned it - and he can easily lose half or more. That's why I feel the OP is in a bit of a bind.
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
Allan
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Allan »

Absolutely positively, YES. Personal is personal and business is business. This (pre-nup) is business. Just figure out a way to tell her without offending her, it can be done, she should actually be impressed with your thoroughness.

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Call_Me_Op
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Call_Me_Op »

Allan wrote:Just figure out a way to tell her without offending her, it can be done, she should actually be impressed with your thoroughness.
Sounds good in theory - but that has not been my experience. More likely, you will get tears.
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
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LowER
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by LowER »

SquawkIdent wrote:Yes...a thousand times yes. Good luck.
+1,000
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MikeWillRetire
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by MikeWillRetire »

250 k in student loans? That alone is scary. And she doesn't always work fulltime? Make sure she plans to be a career woman, at least until that debt is gone.
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ClevrChico
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by ClevrChico »

Yes you do.

Consider future net worth. Inheritance, 401k, pensions, etc. Would you be okay simply giving those away when something happens beyond your control?
Barefootgirl
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Barefootgirl »

A relationship is a contract based on emotion. Marriage is a legal contract. IMO, we should never confuse the two.

Human beings, over the long term, are about as predictable as the weather.

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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by matjen »

Yes...
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Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

lululu wrote:
steve_14 wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
Unfortunately, experienced investors know that the actual result always varies from the expectation, half the time in the wrong direction. I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
Yes, Professor Emeritus is lucky in his marriage, from everything he's posted. Other people, even when they go into a marriage completely committed, find that things happen like when they're forty or so the partner walks out the door. They will be much better off then if there has been financial forethought.

The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
I teach engineers about defective analogies. You don't have a relationship with an insurance company. Did you have a severance pay discussion at your hiring interview?
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Wildebeest »

Of course you need a prenuptial, if you want to go into marriage both eyes open. Marriage is a contract and depending on what state you marry in this contract may be altered as to what happens in divorce.

This contract does not consider you and your beloved and your specific situation.

Will you divorce? There is a good chance you will. In my opinion if your future wife would not see the fairness of a prenup, this would be fair indicator that she is not the one for you.

I am surprised, that the romantic notion of marriage and fear of hurt feelings about trust is so prevalent on this forum. Marriage is the biggest investment of your life. IMHO being educated on prenuptials should be a part of premarriage counselling

When we got married, we did get a prenup and the lawyer thought we were silly since neither of us had more than $10000 to our name or had debt. May be it was silly to get a prenuptial, however it is the principle that matters.
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Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Allan wrote:Absolutely positively, YES. Personal is personal and business is business. This (pre-nup) is business. Just figure out a way to tell her without offending her, it can be done, she should actually be impressed with your thoroughness.

Allan
I suppose if you are marrying a sex worker, you have a point. Why marry anyone if part of the relationship is "business"?
HopeToGolf
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by HopeToGolf »

Do you "need" one...No...Is it reasonable to want one...Yes.

At a minimum, it will start a discussion regarding financial expectations. For example, with $250K in student loan debt what is her plan to pay that back. Did she expect that once married you both would be working on it with current income? Did she expect you to pay down more of it because of your assets and compensation. Additionally, she should know that you are the kind of guy that cares more about his assets and would break up if she does not sign the prenup and cannot understand why you would want one. (This assumes you would call off the marriage if she will not sign the prenup).

I know a guy (we all do) who married a girl paid for law school and she was gone soon after the ink on the parchment was dry. Yes, it is a different situation but you better believe he thought the relationship was until death do they part.

Anyway, marriage is a contract. You may as well bring this one to the table too.

By the way, do not believe the 50% divorce rate stuff. I have read a few things that indicate the divorce rate is much lower for educated couples who marry after the mid-20s maybe early 30s.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Call_Me_Op wrote:
asc8u wrote:
steve_14 wrote: I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
I'd argue insuring a car isn't the same as insuring a relationship. Having insurance wont' affect your car's performance, but a prenup could seriously affect their relationship.
I don't disagree with this but it has always bothered me. I know the argument is "if you insist on a pre-nup, that means you don't trust me." .
It's not a question of trust, it is a question of commitment. Did you have a severance payment discussion at your hiring interview? after all you have to protect yourself!! So did you? Or were you afraid of offending someone and affecting the relationship? Are you willing to offend a spouse but not an employer? exactly what do you think a spouse is?

A law firm a plumber or a sex worker bill you by the hour or by the procedure. When they pay and perform all are free to go.

In my case DW is permanently and totally disabled from any kind of work and requires a 24/7 caretaker. How did you take care of that in your prenup?

FWIW DW always had her own separate money. I am currently selling a house she owns outright. Its a lot of work Perhaps I should send her a bill for my services.

Today is my 39th Wedding anniversary.
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Wildebeest
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Wildebeest »

To be generous you may give her as a wedding present the pay off of her educational debt.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by YttriumNitrate »

lululu wrote:The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
This statistic is both true and incredibly misleading. Among college graduates who marry after the age of 26 (the OP's situation), north of 80% of those marriages will still be going strong 20 years later.
amitb00
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by amitb00 »

Your assets acquired before the marriage is not subjected to division depending on the state. You may look into that as well
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Wildebeest
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Wildebeest »

Professor Emeritus wrote:..... Did you have a severance payment discussion at your hiring interview? after all you have to protect yourself!! So did you? Or were you afraid of offending someone and affecting the relationship? Are you willing to offend a spouse but not an employer? exactly what do you think a spouse is? .........

In my case DW is permanently and totally disabled from any kind of work and requires a 24/7 caretaker. How did you take care of that in your prenup?

FWIW DW always had her own separate money. I am currently selling a house she owns outright. Its a lot of work Perhaps I should send her a bill for my services.

Today is my 39th Wedding anniversary.
Happy wedding anniversary. I am sorry to hear your wife is totally disabled and requires a 24/7 caretaker. Just because the future is unknown does not mean that you should not have a prenuptial agreement.

And yes, when I was hired I did sign a letter of intent outlining dissolution and yes that did offer protection.

It is curious how relationships are. FWIW my spouse and I share in everything equally.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
THY4373
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by THY4373 »

lululu wrote:
The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
The numbers (as always) are a little more nuanced than that figure would suggest. That includes all marriages including folks who get remarried and divorced more than once. The last time I looked higher education (sounds like OP and future spouse have that), first marriages and marriages past the mid/late 20s all reduce the chances of a divorces below the oft quoted 50% rate. I still think OP should consider a prenup given his/her assets relative to spouse but he/she should also prepare for the potential blow up from this request.
sscritic
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by sscritic »

Marriage is a contract and depending on what state you marry in this contract may be altered as to what happens in divorce.
And a pre-nup can be altered in a divorce, as can a post-nup. The state where you live after marriage might also matter, but most especially, the state where you get divorced will matter most of all. The state where you get divorced will trump the state where you get married. Get married in Tijuana, live in Nebraska, then move to California where you get divorced. Which one is the biggie?
If you get married "without" one, the state will determine the division of your assets upon divorce, so you will basically have one anyway. It may be that your state law will protect your assets, if kept separately, and you don't need one.
Since you haven't told us your state and the laws of your state concerning separate property and how the family laws of your state treat separate property, the above advice about knowing where you live is the best advice you have received so far. Until you know where you live, you can't really answer your own question. Of course, once you know where you live, you have to consider where you will get divorced. Back in the day, residents of New York often got divorced in Nevada. There was a reason.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Wildebeest wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:..... Did you have a severance payment discussion at your hiring interview? after all you have to protect yourself!! So did you? Or were you afraid of offending someone and affecting the relationship? Are you willing to offend a spouse but not an employer? exactly what do you think a spouse is? .........

In my case DW is permanently and totally disabled from any kind of work and requires a 24/7 caretaker. How did you take care of that in your prenup?

FWIW DW always had her own separate money. I am currently selling a house she owns outright. Its a lot of work Perhaps I should send her a bill for my services.

Today is my 39th Wedding anniversary.
Happy wedding anniversary. I am sorry to hear your wife is totally disabled and requires a 24/7 caretaker. Just because the future is unknown does not mean that you should not have a prenuptial agreement.

And yes, when I was hired I did sign a letter of intent outlining dissolution and yes that did offer protection.

It is curious how relationships are. FWIW my spouse and I share in everything equally.
My question is a practical one. What do you do in a pre-nup?
On the hiring interview, did you bring it up or did they?

let me emphasize that Prenups are great for established couples who do not have children together. Expecting a person to have and raise children with you in a less than fully committed relationship is a recipe for problems.
Louis Winthorpe III
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

lululu wrote:
The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
As has been discussed before, that statistic is misleading in a number of ways. The failure rate for first marriages is considerably lower than the failure rate for all marriages (because 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc. marriages fail at a higher rate), and the failure rate for people who marry very young is higher than it is for people who wait to 30 or so to get married, etc.

I see YttriumNitrate beat me to it.
YttriumNitrate wrote:
lululu wrote:The failure rate for marriages is 50% - If you knew there was a 50% chance your house would burn down at some point, would you buy homeowner's insurance?
This statistic is both true and incredibly misleading. Among college graduates who marry after the age of 26 (the OP's situation), north of 80% of those marriages will still be going strong 20 years later.
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by topper1296 »

Allan wrote:Absolutely positively, YES. Personal is personal and business is business. This (pre-nup) is business. Just figure out a way to tell her without offending her, it can be done, she should actually be impressed with your thoroughness.

Allan
I was once told to find a "bad guy" in your family and say he or she insist you get a prenup (of course, you should ask this "bad guy" for permission ahead of time). Disclaimer: I've never been married, so I have no experience trying this.
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Wildebeest
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Wildebeest »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
Wildebeest wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:..... Did you have a severance payment discussion at your hiring interview? after all you have to protect yourself!! So did you? Or were you afraid of offending someone and affecting the relationship? Are you willing to offend a spouse but not an employer? exactly what do you think a spouse is? .........

In my case DW is permanently and totally disabled from any kind of work and requires a 24/7 caretaker. How did you take care of that in your prenup?

FWIW DW always had her own separate money. I am currently selling a house she owns outright. Its a lot of work Perhaps I should send her a bill for my services.

Today is my 39th Wedding anniversary.
Happy wedding anniversary. I am sorry to hear your wife is totally disabled and requires a 24/7 caretaker. Just because the future is unknown does not mean that you should not have a prenuptial agreement.

And yes, when I was hired I did sign a letter of intent outlining dissolution and yes that did offer protection.

It is curious how relationships are. FWIW my spouse and I share in everything equally.
My question is a practical one. What do you do in a pre-nup?
On the hiring interview, did you bring it up or did they?

let me emphasize that Prenups are great for established couples who do not have children together. Expecting a person to have and raise children with you in a less than fully committed relationship is a recipe for problems.
Hi Professor Emeritus,

I had to check with my spouse to see what our prenuptial agreement stated. We must still have it somewhere.
It stated that every thing we came in the marriage we would leave with and everything we acquired during the marriage, we would share equally.

I saw it as part of premarital counseling as well as doing the right thing. It was very educational as to what state to get married in and where to get divorced. Why submit to a contract and not being even aware what you signed on for.

As far as the hiring interviews, I did bring it up half way through the process.

My view is that a prenuptial agreement is an expression of a committed relationship, in which the parties are fully educated.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Wildebeest wrote:xpecting a person to have and raise children with you in a less than fully committed relationship is a recipe for problems.
Hi Professor Emeritus,

I had to check with my spouse to see what our prenuptial agreement stated. We must still have it somewhere.
It stated that every thing we came in the marriage we would leave with and everything we acquired during the marriage, we would share equally.

I saw it as part of premarital counseling as well as doing the right thing. It was very educational as to what state to get married in and where to get divorced. Why submit to a contract and not being even aware what you signed on for.

As far as the hiring interviews, I did bring it up half way through the process.

My view is that a prenuptial agreement is an expression of a committed relationship, in which the parties are fully educated.[/quote]

What does it say about children and spousal disability? My niece was born disabled. What did it say? I dealt with a case where a husband expected to preserve his pre-marital assets from any cost of his disabled child e.g. h epected his wife to pay half of the cost without regard to income or assets.
goodenoughinvestor
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by goodenoughinvestor »

From a purely financial perspective of course you should get a pre-nup. But if your future wife believes that marriage means a lifelong commitment, sharing and throwing in your lot together as equals come what may, having children and raising them together, having faith in each other and the strength of your commitment despite the statistics, then you have a problem. If she balks at a pre-nup you will need to make a decision: which is more important to you--your money or this relationship? The opinions of the Boglehead community will be of no use to you then. She won't care that most people on this forum seem to agree you should get a pre-nup. She may see it as a vote of "no confidence." She may see it as creating an unpleasant power dynamic in the relationship--you aren't really in this together because you've created an "out" for yourself. In essence, you're asking her for a money-back guarantee. While this may be financially prudent it can ruin the marriage before it begins if she disagrees with your philosophy.
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Calm Man »

steve_14 wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
Unfortunately, experienced investors know that the actual result always varies from the expectation, half the time in the wrong direction. I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
Steve the professor often says these types of things. I think its just the Socratic method and to stir the pot as he cannot be serious. Of course this poster needs a prenup. It is partly about what you have now and also deals with what will happen. It protects both parties.
sscritic
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by sscritic »

Find the two most expensive lawyers in town, but make sure that they hate each other. You go to one, and she goes to the other. Whatever comes out of the negotiations between the two lawyers should stand up in court. The McCourts used the same lawyer for their post-nup, and it cost them big time.
Lawrence Silverstein, a partner in the Los Angeles office of the Bingham McCutchen LLP law firm, began doing estate planning for the McCourts in 2001. When the McCourts were purchasing the Dodgers, Jamie McCourt talked with Silverstein about buying a home in California. She informed Silverstein that it was important to her to protect the McCourts’ homes from business creditors. She told Silverstein that it had been the McCourts’ practice while living in Massachusetts to title business assets in Frank’s name and personal assets in Jamie’s name, to protect the personal assets from business creditors. Silverstein told Jamie that the McCourts needed an agreement to protect their homes from business creditors.
...
Frank and Jamie each testified that they relied upon Silverstein to properly draw the MPA, and that they did not read the document closely before signing it.

Silverstein acknowledged that he had represented Frank and Jamie McCourt in estate planning matters. He claimed that he represented only Frank in acquiring the Dodgers, Silverstein never told Jamie that he was representing only Frank in acquisition of the Dodgers.
One lawyer equals a big mess! Even expensive lawyers from big firms can mess up big time. You need two, one for each of you.

P.S. Don't forget your reading ability.
fposte
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by fposte »

Call_Me_Op wrote:
Allan wrote:Just figure out a way to tell her without offending her, it can be done, she should actually be impressed with your thoroughness.
Sounds good in theory - but that has not been my experience. More likely, you will get tears.
It helps not to say "Darling, I need you to sign this pre-nup," but "Darling, you've gotten your pre-nup ready for me to sign, haven't you?"
EnjoyIt
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by EnjoyIt »

Yes, yes, and always yes.

When making the contract, you can make it as fair or unfair as you want. Statistics are fact, and if you choose to ignore fact, then you do it at a very expensive risk. Plus you can creat changes in the contract if things change in your lives.

Personally I believe a marriage with a solid prenup increases your chance of staying together. If she fights you on the subject then maybe she doesn't think the marriage will last otherwise why would it matter. Another statistic is that a higher percentage of divorces are initiated by women. In your case she has a lot more to lose than gain with a prenup.

Me personally, I would never have gotten married without one.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79939&start=400#p5275418
lululu
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by lululu »

HopeToGolf wrote: I know a guy (we all do) who married a girl paid for law school and she was gone soon after the ink on the parchment was dry. Yes, it is a different situation but you better believe he thought the relationship was until death do they part.
The version of this story that I usually hear is that the wife put hubby through medical school and then got dumped.
moshe
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by moshe »

Mazel tov on your good fortune and great planning/saving!

I say yes to the pre-nup even though I am still married for 26+ years to the same wonderful woman and we did not have a pre-nup. Of course we didn't have any money either so....

Here is another scenario you might consider. I am not sure if this applies in all states but consulting with an attorney seems to me to be a very "bolgleish" thing to do.

1) Your marry without a pre-nup agreement.

2) Your parent(s) pass while you are married(no kids) and you happen to be in the process of divorce. Of course this assumes that your parents 2.1) have assets and 2.2) are passing some significant portion to you.

3) Your soon to be x-wife is now entitled to 50% (of 2.2) above of your parents assets.

If and when my children marry, as the parent, i will insist that they will have a pre-nup or I will donate my assets to someone else.

~Moshe
Last edited by moshe on Mon May 26, 2014 11:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
My money has no emotions. ~Moshe | | I'm the world's greatest expert on my own opinion. ~Bruce Williams
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

Calm Man wrote:
steve_14 wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:If you have no expectation of building a shared life, and no expectation of helping one another's careers and no expectation whatever of having children, then sure.
Unfortunately, experienced investors know that the actual result always varies from the expectation, half the time in the wrong direction. I don't expect to be involved in a major traffic accident, but I spend a little on insurance anyway.
Steve the professor often says these types of things. I think its just the Socratic method and to stir the pot as he cannot be serious. Of course this poster needs a prenup. It is partly about what you have now and also deals with what will happen. It protects both parties.
I assure you that no one with a disabled spouse says anything about marriage to "stir the pot" I am deadly serious.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

moshe wrote:Mazel tov on your good fortune and great planning/saving!



3) Your soon to be x-wife is now entitled to 50% of your parents assets.

~Moshe

Simply not true in any state that I deal with . Direct effect of the married woman's property act in most states.

However The signing of the Ketubah was a highlight of the wedding of Daughter #1 but it had no financial terms.

My father was a shabbas goy in a very good shule :happy
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tainted-meat
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by tainted-meat »

I wouldn't marry anyone who wanted a pre-nup.

Either all in or all out is my philosophy with anything I do.
Professor Emeritus
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

lululu wrote:
HopeToGolf wrote: I know a guy (we all do) who married a girl paid for law school and she was gone soon after the ink on the parchment was dry. Yes, it is a different situation but you better believe he thought the relationship was until death do they part.
The version of this story that I usually hear is that the wife put hubby through medical school and then got dumped.
We got married the day after I graduated from law school. DW was a medical student. I had nothing but debts.

We built a life together.
I have helped with lots of pre-nups. Everyone forgets to put in the black swans.

and FWIW as a legal taxonomist marriage may be a "contract" i.e. an agreement that the law will enforce but it is not the same kind of contract as a business or commercial contract. And, most importantly children are not a party to it.
moshe
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by moshe »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
moshe wrote:Mazel tov on your good fortune and great planning/saving!



3) Your soon to be x-wife is now entitled to 50% of your parents assets.

~Moshe

Simply not true in any state that I deal with . Direct effect of the married woman's property act in most states.

However The signing of the Ketubah was a highlight of the wedding of Daughter #1 but it had no financial terms.

My father was a shabbas goy in a very good shule :happy
Thank you professor!

That is good to know! When i asked my CPA he said that my children should have one to prevent such an occurrence. I will call a lawyer friend of mine and ask. Will update if my understanding is in error for the Commonwealth of MA.

I know we are way off-topic here but this site had some interesting things to say about the Ketubah contract: "The ketubah required money to be paid by the husband in case of divorce."
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... etubah.htm

All the best,
~Moshe
My money has no emotions. ~Moshe | | I'm the world's greatest expert on my own opinion. ~Bruce Williams
Biffer
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Re: Pre-nup at only $1M networth, do I need it?

Post by Biffer »

Professor Emeritus wrote: Today is my 39th Wedding anniversary.
Happy Anniversary to you and your DW, Professor Emeritus!
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