Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virginia)

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popcathiphat
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Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virginia)

Post by popcathiphat » Sat May 03, 2014 1:23 am

As the title suggests, I'm unsure whether the state of Virginia's default is "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common". And also, does this default differ for different assets: Real Estate, Checking, Savings, 401k, IRA.

I understand that if assets are held "tenancy in common", then a will is needed to disburse assets. Correct?

We're in a bit of a bind, so any information would be helpful here.

richard
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by richard » Sat May 03, 2014 5:23 am

If you want to believe stuff on the internet, "Tenancy in common is the default form of ownership in Virginia when two or more persons are on title to the property." http://keytitleva.com/buyers/holdtitle.htm, which was the first google hit I got for: virginia tenants in common joint default

I'd strongly recommend talking to a Virginia lawyer expert in these issues.

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pjstack
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by pjstack » Sat May 03, 2014 6:21 pm

popcathiphat wrote: I understand that if assets are held "tenancy in common", then a will is needed to disburse assets. Correct?
That doesn't seem right to me. Assets go as they are titled.
Are you talking about your assets, or something you/someone has inherited?

See a lawyer. It will be cheaper in the long run.

Also, IRA's (etc.) go to the beneficiaries designated. If they are your IRA's (etc.) you should have designated primary and secondary beneficiaries.
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sscritic
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by sscritic » Sat May 03, 2014 6:37 pm

popcathiphat wrote: I understand that if assets are held "tenancy in common", then a will is needed to disburse assets. Correct?
No, you can always die intestate if you choose. Tenancy in common means you each own a part and can will your part at will. My ex-wife and I each had children by a previous marriage. When we held property as tenants in common, my half was going to my children and her half was going to her children. (The same was true when we held property as community property.)

What did google tell you? I could quote from an answer found by google, but I think every adult (and child over the age of 7 for that matter) should know how to google for him or herself, so I won't.

It is good that you understand that all such questions are state specific, and I don't know enough about Virginia to give you a good answer. I did read the link posted above, and I would tend to believe it, except that the wording seemed a little strange under joint tenancy.

sscritic
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by sscritic » Sat May 03, 2014 7:59 pm

Now I have a question in return. How do you buy real property in Virginia without titling it one way or the other?

When I owned property as a married man as his sole and separate property, my ownership was recorded as a married man as his sole and separate property. Using the title a married man as his sole and separate property meant that it was not joint, not community, and not tenants in common.

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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by sscritic » Sat May 03, 2014 8:04 pm

One key is the difference between and and or.

Here is what your DMV says:
Joint Owner with the Right of Survivorship
You are considered a joint owner with the right of survivorship if:
Your name is listed on the title as one of the vehicle owners and "or" appears between the names listed, or
The words "or survivor" appear after the names.
...
Not a Joint Owner or a Joint Owner Without the Right of Survivorship
You are not a joint owner if:
Your name does not appear on the title.
You are a joint owner without the right of survivorship if your name is listed on the title as one of the vehicle owners and:
The word "and" appears between the names listed
, or
The words "or survivor" do not appear after the names.
Note, they are both joint, but only one implies survivorship. Joint without survivorship is what tenancy in common is as I understand it.

derosa
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by derosa » Sat May 03, 2014 8:39 pm

On the internet no one knows if you are a lawyer.

If you have a legal question go to an attorney in the state where you have the question.

Anything you read on this site is merely hearsay and worth the pixels it took to produce it.

sscritic
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by sscritic » Sat May 03, 2014 9:24 pm

derosa wrote: Anything you read on this site is merely hearsay and worth the pixels it took to produce it.
So why are you here? Lots of posters here have demonstrated expertise in many areas, including taxes, trusts, 401(k)s, and, dare I say it, social security. Also, some of us know how to read and can read the published laws of the United States and the various states therein. That's not to say you shouldn't verify with a separate source anything you read here.

Just curious, do you think the Virginia DMV was lying when they said the difference was question of and or or? Do you believe what the IRS publishes on the web or are they liars too? If all of the web consists of lies, then you must be a liar, as am I (which I often admit).

So was what you posted one of your lies or just worthless pixels?

P.S. We don't have to know if the OP is a lawyer.; he can still ask a question.

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dm200
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by dm200 » Sat May 03, 2014 9:43 pm

Some information, based on the business I am in -

1 - There is no "joint ownership" in retirement accounts, such as IRAs, 401ks, etc. You may name a "beneficiary or "beneficiaries". In deposit type accounts (such as credit unions or banks), even if all other accounts are jointly owned, an IRA is not jointly owned - but a "beneficiary" or "beneficiaries" may be named.

2. - In Virginia, for deposit type accounts (banks and credit unions), "Joint Owner(s)" may be named - and those joint owner(s) would need to sign the account/signature cards and/or agreements. Joint owners may be designated as "with survivorship" or "without survivorship". "With survivorship" means that on the death of an owner, ownership passes automatically to the joint owner(s). Joint ownership with survivorship takes precedence over a will. The account card(s), agreements, etc. should say which kind of joint ownership. "Without survivorship" means that on the death of an/the owner, rights to the balances are split between the estate of the deceased and the joint owner. I am sure it is not always that simple - depending on who put the money in, etc. The key is that the entire balance does not automatically go to the joint owner. For a number of years, until recently, banks and credit unions were required to offer a choice between with and without survivorship. Recently, a change was made and a bank or credit union can choose to offer just "with survivorship". I believe (am not sure) that without survivorship is very much like tenancy in common.

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pjstack
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by pjstack » Sun May 04, 2014 1:37 am

The OP still hasn't said if these assets are his/hers or are someone else's or an inheritance , etc.
And I'm not quite sure what he/she means by "default". Something is titled or not, has a beneficiary or not.

We don't really know what the real question is.
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by 2cents2 » Sun May 04, 2014 9:08 am

I don't know the answer to your question regarding the default. :oops:

Here are some additional references:
Code of Virginia Title 64.2 - WILLS, TRUSTS, AND FIDUCIARIES.
http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604 ... TOC6402000

Code of Virginia Title 64.2 - WILLS, TRUSTS, AND FIDUCIARIES. Chapter 6 - Transfers Without Qualification
http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/legp604 ... 0000000000


"And also, does this default differ for different assets: Real Estate, Checking, Savings, 401k, IRA."

As dm200 pointed out, There is no "joint ownership" in retirement accounts, such as IRAs, 401ks, etc
The proceeds would go to your named beneficiary/beneficiaries. If you don't name a beneficiary, look at the rules of your plan.
Here is an example of one plan (TSP):

"Distribution According to the TSP Designation of Beneficiary
Did you know that when you die, the TSP will not honor a will when distributing your account? Neither will it honor a prenuptial agreement, a separation agreement, a property settlement agreement, a court order, or a trust document.

The only document the TSP will use to distribute death benefits is Form TSP-3PDF document, Designation of Beneficiary (formerly TSP-U-3 for uniformed services members). By law, the TSP must pay your properly designated beneficiary, or beneficiaries, under all circumstances.
Distribution According to the Statutory Order of Precedence
If you do not have a Designation of Beneficiary form on file with the TSP, your money will be distributed according to the following order of precedence required by law:
1.To your spouse;
2.If none, to your child or children equally, and to the descendants of deceased children;
3.If none, to your parents equally or your surviving parent;
4.If none, to your appointed executor or administrator of your estate;
5.If none, to your next of kin who is entitled to your estate under the laws of the state in which you resided at the time of your death."
https://www.tsp.gov/planparticipation/b ... distribute

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dm200
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Re: Default: "Joint Tenancy" or "Tenancy in Common" (Virgini

Post by dm200 » Sun May 04, 2014 11:34 am

We can let the OP clarify what is meant by "default", but I interpreted the question as what type of "joint ownership" (either with survivorship or tenancy in common) is "assumed" if the type is not specified.

In Virginia, before the fairly recent changes were made concerning banks and credit unions offering both types of joint accounts, older "joint accounts" that did not specify the type are assumed to be "with survivorship".

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