What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

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sunnyday
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by sunnyday » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:43 am

Lowriskok wrote:
Cash is always king. Having cash is a form of insurance. You paid to lose to have cash but it gives you security. You never know when you car will be fail, be condemned, in an accident, or destroyed by natural disaster. The wonderful insurance people will only pay the market value of your vehicle despite the fact you can not purchase the car at the price. Insurance may only pay 80% after your deductibles. You are still out 20%.
I think the insurance analogy is a good one for a lot of people. But for my situation, the insurance costs too much and doesn't have much value so it's not worth it for me.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:54 am

placeholder wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:1) car cost is not a fixed item. you routinely get suckered on the price if they can make it up on the loan
2) The moment you drive the car off the lot you are underwater on the debt anyway . so you are engaged in self delusion.
3) It's not an emergency fund if it's your car fund.
4) self delusion makes you buy more car than you can afford.
5) Borrowing the money is a way of lying to yourself that you still have an "emergency fund"
This is just like the "credit cards make you spend more" argument because while it is often true it doesn't need to be as one can get loans from third parties or negotiate the loan after and make all the buying decisions independently.
You can certainly borrow from a third party or a HELOC. iN such a case you are still buying for Cash.
The comments dealt with dealer financing

If you have a loan and a fund and a depreciating asset it is a very interesting question whether you have an emergency fund.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Wed Feb 05, 2014 10:12 am

sunnyday wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
sscritic wrote:
Ron wrote: If you need to get a car loan, you're buying beyond your means, IMHO.
Don't call it a car loan, call it leverage. Take the loan so you don't have to sell your stocks and pay a 15% tax on the capital gain. Say the car is $20k and your $20k of stock has a basis of $12k. Sell and take a gain of $8k and a tax hit of $1,200. With a 1% 20k loan, the interest is $200 the first year. With a declining balance, you can take a six year loan and still beat selling your stocks.

[see grabiner's post above where he took a loan to avoid the tax]
read the definition of a "sinking fund"
A sinking fund is a fund established by an economic entity by setting aside revenue over a period of time to fund a future capital expense, or repayment of a long-term debt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_fund

anyone who owns a car should be putting the annual depreciation into a sinking fund
otherwise you are BSing yourself

Even a HELOC is better

the key is understanding your consumption pattern versus your investments. If you could lease a car at a fair price (you usually can't) you don't have the problem since you consumption is rated over time. Cars are depreciating capital goods. The depreciation is annual consumption
Where would I invest the money in the sinking fund and what interest rate could I get for it? If I can't get > 3% guaranteed for it, then a sinking fund doesn't make sense for my situation.

I could set aside $25k for my sinking fund and make say 1% on it. In 5 years, that will grow to $26,275 (even less after taxes). Or I could use that $25k and pay down my mortgage at 3.5%. In 5 years the savings will be $29,692. If I financed a car, I would have the option to pay it off quickly if I chose to do so.

It's not BS, just math :)
It may be bookkeeping but IMHO it is still self delusional. FWIW you set aside the sinking fund as the car depreciates. The whole discussion is built on the the magic fairy dust belief that anyone anywhere ACTUALLY loans money on depreciating assets at below market rates. THEY DON"T
(they "inflate" the value of the asset to get you to buy the car).
A car is "worth" not what you pay for it but whatever you can sell it for when you drive it off the lot. Think of it as a 7-10 % load on your "investment". So you borrow $25,000 and you should immediately write off the 10% reduction in value when you drive the car off the lot. You do this by putting that money in the sinking fund.

You are conflating investment and consumption. By your analysis if you had a 10% mortgage you would be making even more money if you buy 5 cars and pay off your mortgage with "your savings". But none of this has anything to do with "investment" Emergency funds are not investments. They are insurance against inability to continue consumption.

I wonder why you don't use a HELOC? and pay cash? then at least eh accounting makes sense

sunnyday
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by sunnyday » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:00 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
sunnyday wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
sscritic wrote:
Ron wrote: If you need to get a car loan, you're buying beyond your means, IMHO.
Don't call it a car loan, call it leverage. Take the loan so you don't have to sell your stocks and pay a 15% tax on the capital gain. Say the car is $20k and your $20k of stock has a basis of $12k. Sell and take a gain of $8k and a tax hit of $1,200. With a 1% 20k loan, the interest is $200 the first year. With a declining balance, you can take a six year loan and still beat selling your stocks.

[see grabiner's post above where he took a loan to avoid the tax]
read the definition of a "sinking fund"
A sinking fund is a fund established by an economic entity by setting aside revenue over a period of time to fund a future capital expense, or repayment of a long-term debt.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinking_fund

anyone who owns a car should be putting the annual depreciation into a sinking fund
otherwise you are BSing yourself

Even a HELOC is better

the key is understanding your consumption pattern versus your investments. If you could lease a car at a fair price (you usually can't) you don't have the problem since you consumption is rated over time. Cars are depreciating capital goods. The depreciation is annual consumption
Where would I invest the money in the sinking fund and what interest rate could I get for it? If I can't get > 3% guaranteed for it, then a sinking fund doesn't make sense for my situation.

I could set aside $25k for my sinking fund and make say 1% on it. In 5 years, that will grow to $26,275 (even less after taxes). Or I could use that $25k and pay down my mortgage at 3.5%. In 5 years the savings will be $29,692. If I financed a car, I would have the option to pay it off quickly if I chose to do so.

It's not BS, just math :)
It may be bookkeeping but IMHO it is still self delusional. FWIW you set aside the sinking fund as the car depreciates. The whole discussion is built on the the magic fairy dust belief that anyone anywhere ACTUALLY loans money on depreciating assets at below market rates. THEY DON"T
(they "inflate" the value of the asset to get you to buy the car).
A car is "worth" not what you pay for it but whatever you can sell it for when you drive it off the lot. Think of it as a 7-10 % load on your "investment". So you borrow $25,000 and you should immediately write off the 10% reduction in value when you drive the car off the lot. You do this by putting that money in the sinking fund.

You are conflating investment and consumption. By your analysis if you had a 10% mortgage you would be making even more money if you buy 5 cars and pay off your mortgage with "your savings". But none of this has anything to do with "investment" Emergency funds are not investments. They are insurance against inability to continue consumption.

I wonder why you don't use a HELOC? and pay cash? then at least eh accounting makes sense
Your not understanding my analysis then. I'm not considering it investing. I'm simply looking at it as saving money by paying off higher interest loans than to have money sit in a sink fund -- making zilch. Obviously I wouldn't be making money by buying 5 cars.

I get the book keeping / insurance aspect, but don't feel it's right for everyone and comes at a fairly steep price.

I would use a HELOC if I could get a lower rate than a car loan. But that isn't the current case. I'm not sure why I would waste money just because my house is suppose to depreciate less than my car.

FWIW, I will try to pay cash for my next car, but I don't think it's currently a wise use of my money to earmark a large amount in a sink fund.

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Alskar
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Alskar » Wed Feb 05, 2014 9:53 pm

winglessangel31 wrote:
sunnyday wrote: Where would I invest the money in the sinking fund and what interest rate could I get for it? If I can't get > 3% guaranteed for it, then a sinking fund doesn't make sense for my situation.

I could set aside $25k for my sinking fund and make say 1% on it. In 5 years, that will grow to $26,275 (even less after taxes). Or I could use that $25k and pay down my mortgage at 3.5%. In 5 years the savings will be $29,692. If I financed a car, I would have the option to pay it off quickly if I chose to do so.

It's not BS, just math :)
jda wrote: 5 year car loan @ 1.49%
5 year CD @ 3.04%

Both from Penfed.
:sharebeer
That's hilarious! Me too! :sharebeer
Lagom är bäst

basspond
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by basspond » Thu Feb 06, 2014 12:13 am

Had option on 2013 model for 0% or $1k, we took $1k.

Polaris
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Polaris » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:21 pm

Alskar wrote:
winglessangel31 wrote:
sunnyday wrote: Where would I invest the money in the sinking fund and what interest rate could I get for it? If I can't get > 3% guaranteed for it, then a sinking fund doesn't make sense for my situation.

I could set aside $25k for my sinking fund and make say 1% on it. In 5 years, that will grow to $26,275 (even less after taxes). Or I could use that $25k and pay down my mortgage at 3.5%. In 5 years the savings will be $29,692. If I financed a car, I would have the option to pay it off quickly if I chose to do so.

It's not BS, just math :)
jda wrote: 5 year car loan @ 1.49%
5 year CD @ 3.04%

Both from Penfed.
:sharebeer
That's hilarious! Me too! :sharebeer
I did the same. I borrowed for 5 years @ 1.49% APR from Alliant Credit Union last fall and also got a $100 promo bonus from them. Then I opened a couple of 5 year @ 3.04% APY CDs at Penfed in December.

jda
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by jda » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:41 pm

Polaris wrote:
Alskar wrote:
winglessangel31 wrote:
sunnyday wrote: Where would I invest the money in the sinking fund and what interest rate could I get for it? If I can't get > 3% guaranteed for it, then a sinking fund doesn't make sense for my situation.

I could set aside $25k for my sinking fund and make say 1% on it. In 5 years, that will grow to $26,275 (even less after taxes). Or I could use that $25k and pay down my mortgage at 3.5%. In 5 years the savings will be $29,692. If I financed a car, I would have the option to pay it off quickly if I chose to do so.

It's not BS, just math :)
jda wrote: 5 year car loan @ 1.49%
5 year CD @ 3.04%

Both from Penfed.
:sharebeer
That's hilarious! Me too! :sharebeer
I did the same. I borrowed for 5 years @ 1.49% APR from Alliant Credit Union last fall and also got a $100 promo bonus from them. Then I opened a couple of 5 year @ 3.04% APY CDs at Penfed in December.
I saw one boglehead's new year resolution is not arguing on forums and decided to make it a resolution of mine.
I am surprised this discussion goes on for 2 page analysing cash vs finance.
To me it was a simple decision, free cash is free cash, if someone is paying me to borrow money how can I say no?

:sharebeer

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:55 pm

sunnyday wrote:
Your not understanding my analysis then. I'm not considering it investing. I'm simply looking at it as saving money by paying off higher interest loans than to have money sit in a sink fund -- making zilch. Obviously I wouldn't be making money by buying 5 cars.

I get the book keeping / insurance aspect, but don't feel it's right for everyone and comes at a fairly steep price.

I would use a HELOC if I could get a lower rate than a car loan. But that isn't the current case. I'm not sure why I would waste money just because my house is suppose to depreciate less than my car.

FWIW, I will try to pay cash for my next car, but I don't think it's currently a wise use of my money to earmark a large amount in a sink fund.
I understand your analysis completely It is still based on the magic fairy dust that someone somewhere will lend you money at below market rates.
They don't. The markup is concealed in the "instant loss" you take when you drive the car off the lot. Your $25,000 car at 0% is suddenly is worth 22K
You just paid an 8% fee for that 0% loan. I buy the same car used using my own HELOC.
HELOCs are the cheapest credit most people can get(because it's deductible and you can prepay or extend the loan as needed so its flexible.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:58 pm

jda wrote:
To me it was a simple decision, free cash is free cash, if someone is paying me to borrow money how can I say no?

:sharebeer
it''s not free . to get the credit you have to buy the asset at an inflated price. Jewelers have done this for decades.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:59 pm

basspond wrote:Had option on 2013 model for 0% or $1k, we took $1k.
perfect example of an inflated price and 0% loan.

jda
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by jda » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:03 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
jda wrote:
To me it was a simple decision, free cash is free cash, if someone is paying me to borrow money how can I say no?

:sharebeer
it''s not free . to get the credit you have to buy the asset at an inflated price. Jewelers have done this for decades.
To the dealer I bought from, I was paying cash because I was doing my own financing so the price I got was cash price.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:12 pm

jda wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
jda wrote:
To me it was a simple decision, free cash is free cash, if someone is paying me to borrow money how can I say no?

:sharebeer
it''s not free . to get the credit you have to buy the asset at an inflated price. Jewelers have done this for decades.
To the dealer I bought from, I was paying cash because I was doing my own financing so the price I got was cash price.
So who gave you "free cash" doing "your own financing" ? if you mean
I did the same. I borrowed for 5 years @ 1.49% APR from Alliant Credit Union last fall and also got a $100 promo bonus from them. Then I opened a couple of 5 year @ 3.04% APY CDs at Penfed in December.
If you have this arbitrage opportunity
Why bother with the car?

jda
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by jda » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:28 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
jda wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
jda wrote:
To me it was a simple decision, free cash is free cash, if someone is paying me to borrow money how can I say no?

:sharebeer
it''s not free . to get the credit you have to buy the asset at an inflated price. Jewelers have done this for decades.
To the dealer I bought from, I was paying cash because I was doing my own financing so the price I got was cash price.
So who gave you "free cash" doing "your own financing" ? if you mean
I did the same. I borrowed for 5 years @ 1.49% APR from Alliant Credit Union last fall and also got a $100 promo bonus from them. Then I opened a couple of 5 year @ 3.04% APY CDs at Penfed in December.
If you have this arbitrage opportunity
Why bother with the car?
I think you were quoting a different member but yes the idea is the same, the lender was giving out car loans at lower rate than their own CD.
Without going off topic, the reason why I bought a car is because I needed one and the arbitrage opportunity happened to present itself at the time which happens to be on the same topic as OP "What interest rate did you get on your car loan?".

To keep my new year resolution intact, I will not get into why limit the arbitrage opportunity to car buying but if you are really interested maybe you can start a new topic so I don't derail the original post.

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 5:41 pm

jda wrote: the lender was giving out car loans at lower rate than their own CD.
.
They make it up on volume?

jda
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by jda » Thu Feb 06, 2014 6:14 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
jda wrote: the lender was giving out car loans at lower rate than their own CD.
.
They make it up on volume?
I really have no idea, all I can say is Penfed has some great products such as their 5/5 ARM

sunnyday
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by sunnyday » Thu Feb 06, 2014 7:19 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
sunnyday wrote:
Your not understanding my analysis then. I'm not considering it investing. I'm simply looking at it as saving money by paying off higher interest loans than to have money sit in a sink fund -- making zilch. Obviously I wouldn't be making money by buying 5 cars.

I get the book keeping / insurance aspect, but don't feel it's right for everyone and comes at a fairly steep price.

I would use a HELOC if I could get a lower rate than a car loan. But that isn't the current case. I'm not sure why I would waste money just because my house is suppose to depreciate less than my car.

FWIW, I will try to pay cash for my next car, but I don't think it's currently a wise use of my money to earmark a large amount in a sink fund.
I understand your analysis completely It is still based on the magic fairy dust that someone somewhere will lend you money at below market rates.
They don't. The markup is concealed in the "instant loss" you take when you drive the car off the lot. Your $25,000 car at 0% is suddenly is worth 22K
You just paid an 8% fee for that 0% loan. I buy the same car used using my own HELOC.
HELOCs are the cheapest credit most people can get(because it's deductible and you can prepay or extend the loan as needed so its flexible.
So anyone who doesn't use your accounting method of a sink fund for a car purchase is not only BSing themselves, but they're also using magic fairy dust. Since the magic dust is saving me thousands, I'll take it :happy

You're making a lot of assumptions especially for not knowing:

1) How much under invoice I plan to spend for my next car (regardless of whether I finance it or not)
2) What my monthly cash flow is
3) How much time I'll have to save up before buying my next car
4) When I will buy my next car

Professor Emeritus
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Professor Emeritus » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:18 pm

sunnyday wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
sunnyday wrote:
Your not understanding my analysis then. I'm not considering it investing. I'm simply looking at it as saving money by paying off higher interest loans than to have money sit in a sink fund -- making zilch. Obviously I wouldn't be making money by buying 5 cars.

I get the book keeping / insurance aspect, but don't feel it's right for everyone and comes at a fairly steep price.

I would use a HELOC if I could get a lower rate than a car loan. But that isn't the current case. I'm not sure why I would waste money just because my house is suppose to depreciate less than my car.

FWIW, I will try to pay cash for my next car, but I don't think it's currently a wise use of my money to earmark a large amount in a sink fund.
I understand your analysis completely It is still based on the magic fairy dust that someone somewhere will lend you money at below market rates.
They don't. The markup is concealed in the "instant loss" you take when you drive the car off the lot. Your $25,000 car at 0% is suddenly is worth 22K
You just paid an 8% fee for that 0% loan. I buy the same car used using my own HELOC.
HELOCs are the cheapest credit most people can get(because it's deductible and you can prepay or extend the loan as needed so its flexible.
So anyone who doesn't use your accounting method of a sink fund for a car purchase is not only BSing themselves, but they're also using magic fairy dust. Since the magic dust is saving me thousands, I'll take it :happy

You're making a lot of assumptions especially for not knowing:

1) How much under invoice I plan to spend for my next car (regardless of whether I finance it or not)
2) What my monthly cash flow is
3) How much time I'll have to save up before buying my next car
4) When I will buy my next car
Leasing a car is also equivalent to a sinking fund.
Any method that tells you thr true cost of owning will work.
The goal of consumption analysis is to avoid fooling yourself. E.g The invoice price on a car is toilet paper.
The value of a car is what someone will pay for it when you drive it off the lot. The immediate loss is whatever you pay over that value.
What you are consuming is THIS car. The trick is to know what it costs.
Cashflow is bookkeeping, not finance.

It's all the same as "mark to market" If you pay a million for a house and it drops to 500k you can fool yourself for a long time that you have a million dollar house.

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Wildebeest
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by Wildebeest » Thu Feb 06, 2014 8:59 pm

I am in the pay cash camp. I hope my latest car will get to 300000 miles.
The Golden Rule: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.

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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:09 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
Leasing a car is also equivalent to a sinking fund.
Any method that tells you thr true cost of owning will work.
The goal of consumption analysis is to avoid fooling yourself. E.g The invoice price on a car is toilet paper.
The value of a car is what someone will pay for it when you drive it off the lot. The immediate loss is whatever you pay over that value.
What you are consuming is THIS car. The trick is to know what it costs.
Cashflow is bookkeeping, not finance.

It's all the same as "mark to market" If you pay a million for a house and it drops to 500k you can fool yourself for a long time that you have a million dollar house.
Let's say you are in the market for a car. You know the utility and your specific needs/wants, and select a special make, model, features, etc. that meet your specific needs/wants without extra. Let's say you have the cash you are willing to spend on it. If you negotiate a price to walk out the car after putting a certain number of Benjamins on the table, then you have decided upon making that purchase, in case, even if you've paid more than you can immediately turn around and sell it for. Now, lets says a week later, after driving the vehicle, you take it to the bank and get a low rate (maybe even zero) loan on the vehicle. Why does this second, separate action suddenly turn around turn this vehicle in "fairy dust" and the low-rate loan be something you are deluding yourself with? If you have already walked out the door paying $X for the car, why does it matter if you then go get a loan of $Y collateralized against the car?

For instance, in late 2012 PenFed offered to give me a $21,000 check for my lien-free vehicle that was my daily driver. They gave a loan at 0.99%. I used those funds to not tap into my taxable investments to pay down my 6.8% student loans that I had been paying aggressively on. The loan against the vehicle had NOTHING to do with purchasing this vehicle or purchasing another. It makes no difference in my insurance coverage (what I had lien-free is sufficient to what I have now with lien) and costs me nothing extra in my vehicle costs. What it does is save me in my other debts.

Now, one may argue about me having a car that was worth $21,000 when I had outstanding debt. With my earnings, I chose to max out my retirement accounts and chose to have money in my savings. I chose to use my cash flow rather than these 'reserves' to pay off these loans. Whether you feel that was a smart or a dumb move is besides the point though. In the meantime, when I think of my net worth, I do NOT include any "value" of my vehicle. When I think of the value of my vehicle should I ever decide to replace it, I base all my calculations and all my savings for the next one on getting a $0 return on my current one, even though the State of NC wants to charge me personal property taxes on $15,500 of it.

Now, if you need the loan to buy the car or you get a loan to buy more car, then yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you. But if you are able to walk in the door, plop down some Benjamins after negotiating the best price from a dealer, a private party, or whathaveyou, then the decision to purchase the car and a decision to get a low rate loan against it are two different things.

sunnyday
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by sunnyday » Fri Feb 07, 2014 7:47 am

Professor Emeritus wrote:
sunnyday wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
sunnyday wrote:
Your not understanding my analysis then. I'm not considering it investing. I'm simply looking at it as saving money by paying off higher interest loans than to have money sit in a sink fund -- making zilch. Obviously I wouldn't be making money by buying 5 cars.

I get the book keeping / insurance aspect, but don't feel it's right for everyone and comes at a fairly steep price.

I would use a HELOC if I could get a lower rate than a car loan. But that isn't the current case. I'm not sure why I would waste money just because my house is suppose to depreciate less than my car.

FWIW, I will try to pay cash for my next car, but I don't think it's currently a wise use of my money to earmark a large amount in a sink fund.
I understand your analysis completely It is still based on the magic fairy dust that someone somewhere will lend you money at below market rates.
They don't. The markup is concealed in the "instant loss" you take when you drive the car off the lot. Your $25,000 car at 0% is suddenly is worth 22K
You just paid an 8% fee for that 0% loan. I buy the same car used using my own HELOC.
HELOCs are the cheapest credit most people can get(because it's deductible and you can prepay or extend the loan as needed so its flexible.
So anyone who doesn't use your accounting method of a sink fund for a car purchase is not only BSing themselves, but they're also using magic fairy dust. Since the magic dust is saving me thousands, I'll take it :happy

You're making a lot of assumptions especially for not knowing:

1) How much under invoice I plan to spend for my next car (regardless of whether I finance it or not)
2) What my monthly cash flow is
3) How much time I'll have to save up before buying my next car
4) When I will buy my next car
Leasing a car is also equivalent to a sinking fund.
Any method that tells you thr true cost of owning will work.
The goal of consumption analysis is to avoid fooling yourself. E.g The invoice price on a car is toilet paper.
The value of a car is what someone will pay for it when you drive it off the lot. The immediate loss is whatever you pay over that value.
What you are consuming is THIS car. The trick is to know what it costs.
Cashflow is bookkeeping, not finance.

It's all the same as "mark to market" If you pay a million for a house and it drops to 500k you can fool yourself for a long time that you have a million dollar house.
So, based on your accounting method that home owner should have a $500k sink fund. Almost everything you buy depreciates -- furniture, appliances, electronics, bicycles. Should everyone have a sink fund for those and if not they're BSing themselves with magic fairy dust?

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LowER
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Re: What interest rate did you get on your car loan?

Post by LowER » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:03 am

Since 1992, I've owned 2 vehicles sequentially. Cash for both.

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