Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

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surveyor
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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by surveyor » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:30 am

Find a recent pharmd grad with zero debt to love and marry. You just keep doing what your're doing. Worked well for me. Nobody works much more than 40.

grog
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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by grog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:42 am

SVT wrote: I don't think I agree with that. I would guess that what people have/make gets inflated when talking to others in person, in real life but not on an anonymous message board where most of us don't know each other. I don't see any reason for strangers on the internet to lie and embellish on the internet to each other. Not that it doesn't happen but I'd imagine it happens more in person between friends/family/coworkers, than on an anonymous message board.
Even if everyone's giving accurate numbers it still isn't very useful information. All you would know is that some younger people interested in boglehead investing who volunteer their salary info often make decent money. What is the value of this exactly? You need good data to make any kind of judgement about where you stand in the distribution, not a couple of data points drawn from a peculiar pool.

And lying is a well acknowledged problem with survey data, even with completly anonymous surveys. For instance, if you give a survey asking about number of sexual partners you will get an implausible discrepancy between male and female respondents. There's no apparent benefit to lying in such cases, but people do it for whatever reason.

Edit: Check out "social desirability bias."
Last edited by grog on Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

stoptothink
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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:10 pm

grog wrote:
SVT wrote: I don't think I agree with that. I would guess that what people have/make gets inflated when talking to others in person, in real life but not on an anonymous message board where most of us don't know each other. I don't see any reason for strangers on the internet to lie and embellish on the internet to each other. Not that it doesn't happen but I'd imagine it happens more in person between friends/family/coworkers, than on an anonymous message board.
Even if everyone's giving accurate numbers it still isn't very useful information. All you would know is that some younger people interested in boglehead investing who volunteer their salary info often make decent money. What is the value of this exactly? You need good data to make any kind of judgement about where you stand in the distribution, not a couple of data points drawn from a peculiar pool.

And lying is a well acknowledge problem with survey data, even with completly anonymous surveys. For instance, if you give a survey asking about number of sexual partners you will get an implausible discrepancy between male and female respondents. There's no apparent benefit to lying in such cases, but people do it for whatever reason.
On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall. I would be willing to bet there is a statistically significant amount of people on this board inflating their salary, far more so than in person. A lot easier to adjust without being called out on an anonymous message board. I'll happily admit I am not one of these young high-wage earners.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by smpatel » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:31 pm

grog wrote:On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall.
I am just over 29, make slightly above 100K, could bench press close to 400lb and just short of 6' :sharebeer

MindBogler
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by MindBogler » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:36 pm

smpatel wrote:
grog wrote:On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall.
I am just over 29, make slightly above 100K, could bench press close to 400lb and just short of 6' :sharebeer
Notice "fortuitous" use of the word "close" next to 400lb in that sentence. :sharebeer

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by fareastwarriors » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:38 pm

stoptothink wrote:
grog wrote:
SVT wrote: I don't think I agree with that. I would guess that what people have/make gets inflated when talking to others in person, in real life but not on an anonymous message board where most of us don't know each other. I don't see any reason for strangers on the internet to lie and embellish on the internet to each other. Not that it doesn't happen but I'd imagine it happens more in person between friends/family/coworkers, than on an anonymous message board.
Even if everyone's giving accurate numbers it still isn't very useful information. All you would know is that some younger people interested in boglehead investing who volunteer their salary info often make decent money. What is the value of this exactly? You need good data to make any kind of judgement about where you stand in the distribution, not a couple of data points drawn from a peculiar pool.

And lying is a well acknowledge problem with survey data, even with completly anonymous surveys. For instance, if you give a survey asking about number of sexual partners you will get an implausible discrepancy between male and female respondents. There's no apparent benefit to lying in such cases, but people do it for whatever reason.
On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall. I would be willing to bet there is a statistically significant amount of people on this board inflating their salary, far more so than in person. A lot easier to adjust without being called out on an anonymous message board. I'll happily admit I am not one of these young high-wage earners.

I would like to believe the people that posts here are generally honest and are in fact above average in salary/savings/investing. I believe the bogleheads here are not average Americans. I would argue this small group is way above average.


With that said, I'm 25 and make 62.4k in SF. I can't bench 400 b/c I'm lazy and never work out. I'm not even close to 6' tall, more like 5'8"... ouch for me! :oops:

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:49 pm

smpatel wrote:
grog wrote:On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall.
I am just over 29, make slightly above 100K, could bench press close to 400lb and just short of 6' :sharebeer
Yes, and my name is George Clooney. :D
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by statsguy » Tue Sep 24, 2013 1:59 pm

It's not what you make but what you save. We retired while I was 56 with more than a million in our portfolio, about $900k in real estate, and a small pension of about $42k per year. I never made more than $92,000 in a year and my wife retired when she was 40 to bring up the kids. Making a 100k a year was never my goal, in fact I turned down a couple of jobs paying over a $100k with reputable drug companies because the jobs would have required me to fire people who were underperforming. I chose to stay in my safe academic position though the pay was not as good.

My point is that if you live below your means, save as much as you can, that you do not need a large salary to retire comfortably.

Stats

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:04 pm

statsguy wrote:It's not what you make but what you save. We retired while I was 56 with more than a million in our portfolio, about $900k in real estate, and a small pension of about $42k per year. I never made more than $92,000 in a year and my wife retired when she was 40 to bring up the kids. Making a 100k a year was never my goal, in fact I turned down a couple of jobs paying over a $100k with reputable drug companies because the jobs would have required me to fire people who were underperforming. I chose to stay in my safe academic position though the pay was not as good.

My point is that if you live below your means, save as much as you can, that you do not need a large salary to retire comfortably.

Stats
Does that pension include Social Security or is that a stand-alone small pension?
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Meg77 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:16 pm

With that education you could qualify to be an underwriter/analyst at a commercial bank (especially with a night course or two in accounting). I'm not talking about investment banking analysts or the mutual fund analysts who need CFAs. Regular old bank analysts are employed at every bank which originates commercial loans. They support lending staff by writing the loan packages/reports which are reviewed by credit approvers to determine whether a loan request is approved or declined. Computers do this for consumer loans like cars and mortgages, but people do it for more complex credit decisions like buying a commercial building or constructing a residence. Many analysts hope to become lenders after a few years so there is a lot of turnover and frequent hiring in these positions. However some people are happy to remain analysts indefinitely and make a career out of it, not wanting the added sales pressure of being a Relationhsip Manager/Commercial Lender/Private Banker.

Anyway here is my income history, which you may find helpful. I've never worked more than 40 hours a week (except maybe a few weeks here and there if a deal needed to close quickly).
Age 22 - Graduated from college, hired as Credit Specialist with a regional bank in Texas, starting salary $45,000 plus overtime (overtime was rarely required though). Got discretionary annual bonus of $1,830 (lenders' pool was shared with us)
Age 23 - Promoted to Bank Officer; lost overtime but got a base salary raise to $52,500 plus a discretionary bonus of $3,000.
Age 24 - Raise to $54,863. Got a discretionary bonus of $7,969.
Age 25 - Promoted to Assistant Vice President with $60,000 salary (this is when I went from analyst to lender). I Inherited a small loan portfolio and started on the incentive comp program trying to generate new loans/deposits (I made $14K in bonus that year).
Age 26 - Raise to $61,200. Got bonus of $22,240 that year.
Age 27 - Got a raise to $75,000 mid year due to performance (and to make up for the fact that my pay bump from analyst to lender would normally have been higher - they were probably afraid I would figure this out and leave). At my annual review I got another small increase to $76,500. Made $17,800 in bonus.
Age 28 - Was recruited to antoher bank. Switched employers and got a promotion to VP and a $101,000 base salary plus a $10,000 signing bonus.
Age 29 - Got raise to $112,500 (I exceeded my goals in year one but was still surprised at the big raise so soon after moving over). Got annual bonus of $46,294.

And that's where I'm at now. I expect a smaller bonus of more like $25K next year. Our incentive comp plans give you 25% of base salary if you hit your production targets and 50% of base salary if you exceed your goals by 33%. That's pretty generous; many banks cap out around 25-30% of salary these days. But there isn't the sales pressure in banking that there is in other financial industries like "financial advising" (i.e. selling mutual funds or stock picking for clients). I'm not going to get fired if I don't meet my goals - I just won't get much of a bonus. I work 9am to about 4:30pm on a good day. Of course culture varies from bank to bank and group to group. I'm a Private Banker where it's more informal and relaxed. My BF is a middle market commercial lender at a bigger bank and works more like 8am to 5:30pm with a bit more sales pressure (and bigger bonuses to show for it).

For the record I got an analyst job right out of undergrad, but now many banks recuit MBAs to those positions. Starting salaries are now in the $60s or even up to the $80s depending if you have a masters and some experience. This is in a major Texas metro but they probably aren't too much lower in smaller cities. Our bank has locations throughout Oklahoma and my former employer has analysts in 8 states and all analysts made the same amounts with little or no COL adjustment.
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by statsguy » Tue Sep 24, 2013 2:24 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
statsguy wrote:It's not what you make but what you save. We retired while I was 56 with more than a million in our portfolio, about $900k in real estate, and a small pension of about $42k per year. I never made more than $92,000 in a year and my wife retired when she was 40 to bring up the kids. Making a 100k a year was never my goal, in fact I turned down a couple of jobs paying over a $100k with reputable drug companies because the jobs would have required me to fire people who were underperforming. I chose to stay in my safe academic position though the pay was not as good.

My point is that if you live below your means, save as much as you can, that you do not need a large salary to retire comfortably.

Stats
Does that pension include Social Security or is that a stand-alone small pension?
I qualify for Social Security and plan to start collecting at 70 (in 11 years)

Stats

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:04 pm

fareastwarriors wrote:
stoptothink wrote:
grog wrote:
SVT wrote: I don't think I agree with that. I would guess that what people have/make gets inflated when talking to others in person, in real life but not on an anonymous message board where most of us don't know each other. I don't see any reason for strangers on the internet to lie and embellish on the internet to each other. Not that it doesn't happen but I'd imagine it happens more in person between friends/family/coworkers, than on an anonymous message board.
Even if everyone's giving accurate numbers it still isn't very useful information. All you would know is that some younger people interested in boglehead investing who volunteer their salary info often make decent money. What is the value of this exactly? You need good data to make any kind of judgement about where you stand in the distribution, not a couple of data points drawn from a peculiar pool.

And lying is a well acknowledge problem with survey data, even with completly anonymous surveys. For instance, if you give a survey asking about number of sexual partners you will get an implausible discrepancy between male and female respondents. There's no apparent benefit to lying in such cases, but people do it for whatever reason.
On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall. I would be willing to bet there is a statistically significant amount of people on this board inflating their salary, far more so than in person. A lot easier to adjust without being called out on an anonymous message board. I'll happily admit I am not one of these young high-wage earners.

I would like to believe the people that posts here are generally honest and are in fact above average in salary/savings/investing. I believe the bogleheads here are not average Americans. I would argue this small group is way above average.
No argument here, Bogleheads are far from average in regards to both income and savings, but that does not change human nature. According to a random Google search about 6% of American adults (individual) make over $100k a year. If you just read this board you'd assume at least half of those under 30 are in that very small group. I am 32, make ~$70k and honestly don't foresee my salary increasing more than 25% in my entire career (already in upper management, nature of industry), as far as Bogleheads go I am a financial slacker...but I am 6'1" and have (9yrs ago) competition-legal bench pressed over 400lbs raw.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by jimmyrules712 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:06 pm

I don't post to brag, just to add a data point.

At 22, in 2009, I graduated from a state school with a BS degree in Management Information Systems. Applied for an IT job with an energy company in Oklahoma through the school's career fair and had a job offer 9 months before graduating for a starting salary of $75k. I'm now 26 working for the same company and making just under $100k just from a couple of promotions and COLA raises. My company is actually pretty laid back, I rarely need to work more than 40 hrs per week, get a defined contribution pension, and an 8% 401k match.

I think for me, getting to this point has been a combination of choosing a degree that's in high demand and being willing to move to an area that isn't the most desirable to many people. I know several people who graduated from the same school as me with the same degree and went to work on the east coast somewhere and make half what I do.
Last edited by jimmyrules712 on Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by hsv_climber » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:09 pm

42k pension with COLA is a lot of money. It should be equivalent to something like 1.1 - 1.2 million.
(note : it takes ~750K to buy a similar annuity without COLA).

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by Clearly_Irrational » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:17 pm

Kosmo wrote:Rental income certainly is not tax free. This came across odd to me as well. But unreported income is always tax free...until the IRS finds out about it.
Strangely, in my particular situation I actually make more money by reporting it. (I would have done so anyways but it's nice to be rewarded for doing the right thing) The tax code is seriously odd at times.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:33 pm

statsguy wrote:It's not what you make but what you save. We retired while I was 56 with more than a million in our portfolio, about $900k in real estate, and a small pension of about $42k per year. I never made more than $92,000 in a year and my wife retired when she was 40 to bring up the kids. Making a 100k a year was never my goal, in fact I turned down a couple of jobs paying over a $100k with reputable drug companies because the jobs would have required me to fire people who were underperforming. I chose to stay in my safe academic position though the pay was not as good.

My point is that if you live below your means, save as much as you can, that you do not need a large salary to retire comfortably.

Stats
42K on a last year salary of 92K is not a small pension. Had you not had that pension, your financial capacity would suffer a big reduction from your current position. I don't begrudge you, however one needs to keep perspective, you are in an envious position that today's workforce will be hard pressed to match given the current state of affairs in widespread cost reductions occurring at every corner and turn of the working world. I do agree, it's what you save, but that is the part that has been getting harder and harder for the average Joe to accomplish.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by evostevo85 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:37 pm

Grog, very good points.

I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170. So I've got that going for me. Should probably compete.

Whoever mentioned millionaire next door, that's one of my favorite books. They emphasized owning a business, however, and I can't just up and start a bank, which is why I was interested in other career paths.

I do find that many people in my field are caught up in the consumption lifestyle, so it's kind of nice to be on a low rung because no one really pays attention to me in that regard. This thread has helped me appreciate more that I do not have to deal with crushing student loan debt (40k isn't horrible), years of post-baccalaureate education (I did mine while working so no opportunity cost), a big nasty city with a high COL, dangerous/uncomfortable work conditions, travel, or overtime. I feel quite a bit better, actually.

The credit analyst suggestion is very attractive. Should I just look for postings for "credit analyst", "commercial banking analyst", etc.? That really sounds like an excellent lifestyle and the work sounds interesting. I have no interest in rote-memorizing 18,000 pages of CFA material, so its lack of importance there is also nice.

I already max my roth IRA and trad 401k and am slowly building up the % contribution to the roth 401k versus the traditional to increase savings even more. Own a house, no consumer debt, car paid off. I guess as long as I don't acquire a taste for the finer things I should be OK.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by smpatel » Tue Sep 24, 2013 3:41 pm

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
smpatel wrote:
grog wrote:On the internet everybody makes over $100k, can bench press 400lbs, and is over 6' tall.
I am just over 29, make slightly above 100K, could bench press close to 400lb and just short of 6' :sharebeer
Yes, and my name is George Clooney. :D
I forgot to mention that I don't work, I play golf and married to a super model :happy

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by InvestorNewb » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:00 pm

evostevo85 wrote:I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170.
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that you are doing it with proper form.

I've been working out for over 10 years and have never seen someone at that weight press this much.
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by evostevo85 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:39 pm

I've been at it for 12 years and have insane chest genetics. I'm also shorter at 5'8, therefore t-Rex arms. It has its disadvantages, like for instance, showering.

But you're probably right...I have a lot if nagging sports injuries from younger years that mess with my form on some lifts, but I'm certainly not going to stop lifting and get fat. Either way, it goes down and goes up ;)

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:31 pm

evostevo85 wrote: The credit analyst suggestion is very attractive. Should I just look for postings for "credit analyst", "commercial banking analyst", etc.? That really sounds like an excellent lifestyle and the work sounds interesting. I have no interest in rote-memorizing 18,000 pages of CFA material, so its lack of importance there is also nice.
The The Millionaire Next Door you should understand the methodology is flawed. One would have to do a 'tracking study' where we started with a group of people in their early 20s, tracked them for 20-40 years, and saw how they wound up and identified common features.

A cross sectional study in the book just tells you how a group of millionaires behaves now, it doesn't tell you whether there were other people who followed the same rules (like owning big domestic cars) and wound up not rich. The whole study is methodologically invalid-- and since the writer allegedly taught statistics at a business school, he should know that.

The general principles in the book about spending less than you earn, and investing, every Boglehead knows and are good principles.

As to careers:

- don't 'skate to where the puck was' -- that's not how Gretzy became the best hockey player in history

In other words, something like 'credit analyst' smells to me like a job that could be heavily automated (Fair Isaacs ie the FICO score, did that to consumer credit rankings). Now that may not be true (I don't know enough about it) but don't choose a career just because it sounds lucrative. Find something you like doing, that seems to have a demand. Maybe that *is* being a credit analyst, but investigate (Vault.com etc.) what credit analysts actually *do* and how you become one. Talk to some-- when I was considering being a lawyer I found they were very willing to talk if I bought them lunch.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by stoptothink » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:44 pm

InvestorNewb wrote:
evostevo85 wrote:I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170.
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that you are doing it with proper form.

I've been working out for over 10 years and have never seen someone at that weight press this much.
The raw world record at 165lbs. is 487 by Joe Mazza, one of the greatest benchers the world has ever seen (who also happens to be 5'4" and cuts weight to get to 165). The chances of the OP being honest are astronomical, like 1 in 50,000,000. If true, hats off to you, you truly have world-class relative pressing strength and without any competitive history. I raw benched 407 (185kg) at the Western Pacific AAU Raw Powerlifting Championships, placing 3rd in my age group (in the entire western U.S) at 220lb. And yes, I have both favorable genetics and a long history of competitive powerlifting. Like I said, everybody can bench press 400 on the internet, despite the fact that the latest NSCA study concluded that less than 1% of adult males can even press 300. Wouldn't be far-fetched for someone to suggest the same phenomenon exists for stated salaries, which I have far less knowledge about then competitive lifting...at least I am going to keep thinking this because I'd be on the short end of the salary bell curve for a Boglehead.
Last edited by stoptothink on Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Tue Sep 24, 2013 5:58 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
evostevo85 wrote: The credit analyst suggestion is very attractive. Should I just look for postings for "credit analyst", "commercial banking analyst", etc.? That really sounds like an excellent lifestyle and the work sounds interesting. I have no interest in rote-memorizing 18,000 pages of CFA material, so its lack of importance there is also nice.
The The Millionaire Next Door you should understand the methodology is flawed. One would have to do a 'tracking study' where we started with a group of people in their early 20s, tracked them for 20-40 years, and saw how they wound up and identified common features.

A cross sectional study in the book just tells you how a group of millionaires behaves now, it doesn't tell you whether there were other people who followed the same rules (like owning big domestic cars) and wound up not rich. The whole study is methodologically invalid-- and since the writer allegedly taught statistics at a business school, he should know that.

The general principles in the book about spending less than you earn, and investing, every Boglehead knows and are good principles.

As to careers:

- don't 'skate to where the puck was' -- that's not how Gretzy became the best hockey player in history

In other words, something like 'credit analyst' smells to me like a job that could be heavily automated (Fair Isaacs ie the FICO score, did that to consumer credit rankings). Now that may not be true (I don't know enough about it) but don't choose a career just because it sounds lucrative. Find something you like doing, that seems to have a demand. Maybe that *is* being a credit analyst, but investigate (Vault.com etc.) what credit analysts actually *do* and how you become one. Talk to some-- when I was considering being a lawyer I found they were very willing to talk if I bought them lunch.
Actually, a credit analyst is a very important function, moreso than an equity analyst. If you want to understand the inner mechanism of how government, public or private companies operate and their ability or not to continue as going concerns - you've come to the right place. That said, the job entails more than just book smarts, you have to have common sense and know how to apply it. One other thing, in all fairness, studying for the CFA is not a joke and it is much more than memorization, you need to apply it or you will not pass. You're still lacking the FLUFF that many people find desirable, stop knocking occupations you have no clue about.
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by grog » Tue Sep 24, 2013 6:27 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
The The Millionaire Next Door you should understand the methodology is flawed. One would have to do a 'tracking study' where we started with a group of people in their early 20s, tracked them for 20-40 years, and saw how they wound up and identified common features.

A cross sectional study in the book just tells you how a group of millionaires behaves now, it doesn't tell you whether there were other people who followed the same rules (like owning big domestic cars) and wound up not rich. The whole study is methodologically invalid-- and since the writer allegedly taught statistics at a business school, he should know that.

The general principles in the book about spending less than you earn, and investing, every Boglehead knows and are good principles.
I don't think this is quite fair. The tracking study you propose would be quite a difficult undertaking. Unrealistically so. They presented what they had; I don't think you can fault them for not doing something much more involved. I was not aware the book aspired to be more than the simple cross-sectional study you condemn, and I for one found the description of the characteristics of millionaires to be fascinating. The fact that many millionaires own their own small businesses is interesting. The fact that a lot of people with nice cars and big houses are not really rich is also interesting. It sort of goes without saying that copying any given characteristic won't necessarily cause you to become a millionaire.

I think survivorship bias is an important caveat for the portions on owning your own business, but the charge does not really apply to the main thrust of the book which is frugality. In that case, there is a clear, deterministic mechanism (saving lots of money) that leads to wealth.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Hector » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:05 pm

InvestorNewb wrote:
evostevo85 wrote:I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170.
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that you are doing it with proper form.

I've been working out for over 10 years and have never seen someone at that weight press this much.
What if 170lbs person is short? Never say no.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:15 pm

Please stay on-topic (financial). Physical fitness claims should be discussed in the Personal Consumer Issues forum.
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by mathwhiz » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:08 pm

To each his own, but I'd much rather make $60k in a low stress job working 40 hours a week, than make six figures in a high stress 60+ hour a week job. Think about what makes you happy in your life. I don't think anyone on their death bed wished they spent more time at work.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by ieee488 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:23 pm

mathwhiz wrote:To each his own, but I'd much rather make $60k in a low stress job working 40 hours a week, than make six figures in a high stress 60+ hour a week job. Think about what makes you happy in your life. I don't think anyone on their death bed wished they spent more time at work.
+1

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by evostevo85 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:53 pm

stoptothink wrote:
InvestorNewb wrote:
evostevo85 wrote:I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170.
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that you are doing it with proper form.

I've been working out for over 10 years and have never seen someone at that weight press this much.
The raw world record at 165lbs. is 487 by Joe Mazza, one of the greatest benchers the world has ever seen (who also happens to be 5'4" and cuts weight to get to 165). The chances of the OP being honest are astronomical, like 1 in 50,000,000. If true, hats off to you, you truly have world-class relative pressing strength and without any competitive history. I raw benched 407 (185kg) at the Western Pacific AAU Raw Powerlifting Championships, placing 3rd in my age group (in the entire western U.S) at 220lb. And yes, I have both favorable genetics and a long history of competitive powerlifting. Like I said, everybody can bench press 400 on the internet, despite the fact that the latest NSCA study concluded that less than 1% of adult males can even press 300. Wouldn't be far-fetched for someone to suggest the same phenomenon exists for stated salaries, which I have far less knowledge about then competitive lifting...at least I am going to keep thinking this because I'd be on the short end of the salary bell curve for a Boglehead.

Could you point me where to go to begin competing?

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by Noobvestor » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Valuethinker wrote: In other words, there are no soft options. In my 50s, I have come to envy those who joined the civil service after university, who are now looking at fully CPI indexed final salary/ defined benefit pensions when they retire at 60 with 35 years service.
IIRC you're in the UK. In the US, some of those civil servants may not get all that is promised (see: Detroit). I would much rather be defined-contribution and not have to worry about the solvency or law changes around city, state and federal retirement compensation. But maybe it's different where you are, or you're less worried about that particular kind of tail risk for other reasons.

As to the main question of the thread ... I used to think others should follow my lead and start their own businesses. But the more years I run mine, the more I realize two things: (1) there are trade-offs - I am sometimes envious of the 9-to-5-ers, and (2) most people just aren't going to self-organize enough to make it work - they need external structure imposed on them to get things done. So I would defer to the other people in the thread who advise finding a high-paying position that isn't too demanding and making a go of that ;)
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by HereForTheCheese » Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:22 pm

You don't even need a high income unless you can have the extreme will-power to resist lifestyle inflation. If you simply want to maintain your current lifestyle then you can just as easily save a high percent of your income and retire with low passive returns, but low needs as well. It just depends on your personal goals.

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by clevername » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:12 pm

Clearly_Irrational wrote:
Kosmo wrote:Rental income certainly is not tax free. This came across odd to me as well. But unreported income is always tax free...until the IRS finds out about it.
Strangely, in my particular situation I actually make more money by reporting it. (I would have done so anyways but it's nice to be rewarded for doing the right thing) The tax code is seriously odd at times.
Earned income credit? Maybe AOC? :confused

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by nirvines88 » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:30 pm

I must have screwed something up - since I might be the only person with a low wage (<40k) job with lots of hours (average 60+)!
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by playtothebeat » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:31 pm

Here's what I suggest you do..
Find a field or fields that interest you. Meet people in those fields and pick their brain about the type of work they do, their lifestyles, etc. Could be something as simple as reaching out to your alma matter and seeing if the career center can set you up for some informal interviews (a coffee, a lunch, etc). Or find some companies that interest you and see if anyone from your school works there - i'm sure he or she would be happy to meet with you to discuss whatever questions you may have.

Good luck. And stop comparing yourself to others (whether friends, family, or strangers on the internet).

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by HomerJ » Wed Sep 25, 2013 12:00 am

evostevo85 wrote:
stoptothink wrote:
InvestorNewb wrote:
evostevo85 wrote:I can actually bench 400, at a bodyweight of 170.
No offense, but I sincerely doubt that you are doing it with proper form.

I've been working out for over 10 years and have never seen someone at that weight press this much.
The raw world record at 165lbs. is 487 by Joe Mazza, one of the greatest benchers the world has ever seen (who also happens to be 5'4" and cuts weight to get to 165). The chances of the OP being honest are astronomical, like 1 in 50,000,000. If true, hats off to you, you truly have world-class relative pressing strength and without any competitive history. I raw benched 407 (185kg) at the Western Pacific AAU Raw Powerlifting Championships, placing 3rd in my age group (in the entire western U.S) at 220lb. And yes, I have both favorable genetics and a long history of competitive powerlifting. Like I said, everybody can bench press 400 on the internet, despite the fact that the latest NSCA study concluded that less than 1% of adult males can even press 300. Wouldn't be far-fetched for someone to suggest the same phenomenon exists for stated salaries, which I have far less knowledge about then competitive lifting...at least I am going to keep thinking this because I'd be on the short end of the salary bell curve for a Boglehead.

Could you point me where to go to begin competing?
Heh, we may have inadvertently found a way for the OP to start making six figures!

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 25, 2013 3:28 am

Noobvestor wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: In other words, there are no soft options. In my 50s, I have come to envy those who joined the civil service after university, who are now looking at fully CPI indexed final salary/ defined benefit pensions when they retire at 60 with 35 years service.
IIRC you're in the UK. In the US, some of those civil servants may not get all that is promised (see: Detroit). I would much rather be defined-contribution and not have to worry about the solvency or law changes around city, state and federal retirement compensation. But maybe it's different where you are, or you're less worried about that particular kind of tail risk for other reasons.

As to the main question of the thread ... I used to think others should follow my lead and start their own businesses. But the more years I run mine, the more I realize two things: (1) there are trade-offs - I am sometimes envious of the 9-to-5-ers, and (2) most people just aren't going to self-organize enough to make it work - they need external structure imposed on them to get things done. So I would defer to the other people in the thread who advise finding a high-paying position that isn't too demanding and making a go of that ;)
I was actually thinking Federal UK civil service (there isn't really regional government, except Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland-- there's just Central and Local). But civil service pensions at all levels are secure. There are however cuts being implemented (indexing to a lower measure of inflation, plus moving to 'career average' from 'final salary'). Existing pension rights will be protected.

US Federal I think is pretty secure. Ronald Reagan and Tip O'Neill implemented changes in 1985? 1986? which significantly lowered the defined benefit aspect but also created the TSP. In fact we had a poster here long ago who, working for a Senator I think, was influential in getting the TSP options be very low cost index mutual funds.

There is certainly a *job security* risk to Federal Civil servants in the US (another poster was with air traffic control, and outsourced) but not so much I don't think to the pensions.

Agree with you re employees at US state and local level.

And yes, running your own business is hard. If you go into business with someone else, it's like a marriage without the side benefits, and it can get pretty fraught. And it really is 24/7 if a client has a problem on the weekend, you have a problem on the weekend.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by SpecialK22 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 5:29 am

One thing that I think gets discounted too much is the role luck plays in people's success. About the only thing an individual is capable of is not backing themselves into a corner. I think you are doing well on that front as you don't have things such as crippling student loan debt. After that it's just a matter of taking advantage of opportunities as they present themselves.

Even though I am 31 and make (very low) six-figures, I honestly think luck, mostly in the form of good timing, has played the biggest role in my success. Actually, rather than thinking I made any truly brilliant decisions, I think I've mostly avoided really bad decisions (knock on wood). For example, I took the enlisted Air Force route rather than the college route immediately after graduating high school. This benefited me in many ways:

(1) Paid for training with free healthcare, housing, meals.
(2) Military time can be bought back into one's federal pension relatively cheaply. Even better, by remaining in the Air Guard that same time also counts towards a reserve component pension. This isn't considered double dipping because one has to buy back the time for it to count towards the FERS annuity, but as previously mentioned the buy back amount is very cheap relative to the increased benefit.
(3) Post 9/11 GI Bill which allows one to go back to school often for free and with a tax-free living stipend. It can also be transferred to dependents. Gives one options since it allows for education for a different line of work. This was definitely luck. When I enlisted in 2000 the Montgomery GI Bill was available, which while good is for most situations inferior to the Post 9/11 GI Bill.
(4) Generally speaking, priority hiring with the federal government. Also, significantly more options for contract employment due to certifications gained while in the USAF and documented work experience.
(5) Four year enlistment is the same time commitment as a four year degree. Note: This has since changed. Starting in 2007/2008 the Air Force took away the four year option for air traffic control. Minimum initial enlistment is now six years.
(6) Pay for prior military controllers starts out slightly higher than college grads going to the same level facility. Additionally, some of the busier facilities only take those with prior experience, so those straight out of college can't go to those facilities immediately. Higher level facilities have higher pay bands.

To be fair though, I think the community college route offers the best option right now. It is usually inexpensive, and it doesn't require the lengthy time commitment of a six year Air Force enlistment.

But I have been lucky to not have been killed/maimed in combat or suffered a major injury, since I spent my first four years in a ground combat career field, or "battlefield airmen" career field as the Air Force calls them now. Maybe I should add a 7th point to the list above: I'm also prepared for the zombie apocalypse, so I've got that going for me.... :wink:

Unfortunately, some college grads I work with are in fairly terrible financial shape. Like I mentioned in my opening comments, I believe most success stems from not backing oneself into a corner. More options = better chance to get lucky.

The following blog post represents an extreme example, but nevertheless:

synopsis:
Within my first semester, I realized that becoming a pilot was not for me, so I quickly changed gears and began pursuing a degree in Air Traffic Management. At the time of my switch, I did my research and I had heard from many different people that not long after graduation, air traffic controllers earn quite a large salary, sometimes reaching six figures. I was thrilled considering I knew staying in an expensive private school would cost quite a bit of money; however, I wasn’t worried since the benefit would be enough to cover my payments and more.

I thought for sure with my background and grades, I would have no problem getting hired as soon as possible. Unfortunately, this wasn’t the case. I was advised that going back to school was the only option that could buy me a little more time to repay my loan; I decided to go ahead and pursue my Masters in Business Administration.

As of today, 06/12/2013, my combined loan amount for both undergraduate and graduate degrees is $192,068.72 and is growing daily.

As of right now, I am currently working at Geico as a customer service representative making $32,500 per year.
http://jazzyfizzle.newsvine.com/_news/2 ... -loan-debt

If you read the full article you can tell that she is a nice young woman, and fairly optimistic given her situation, so I do hope things turn out well for her. Taking on too much debt combined with bad timing--she had the misfortune to graduate during a hiring slowdown that has since turned to a hiring freeze--has put her in an unfortunate financial position today.

Oh, and while I am 6'1, 190, I have never been able to bench close to 400 lbs.

Just keep doing what you are doing and don't back yourself into a corner and I think things will turn out very well for you, financially and otherwise.

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by dickenjb » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:10 am

Investing is boring wrote:
evostevo85 wrote: Well it's not an MBA, technically, but a MS Finance, which is the same as an MBA in Finance with all the soft communication, HR, strategy, marketing etc. classes thrown out. I graduated undergrad debt-free but it was in 2008 during the peak of the recession and I had no internships because they were all unpaid, I had no connections, and I had a lucrative (for a kid) summer job. So I self-financed my master's, which cost about 45k. I find myself in a tough position because no one seems to know what to do with an MS Finance...employers generally don't treat it as an MBA, and put me in with the guys with Bachelor's degrees only. I also cannot take additional fluff classes to acquire an MBA...I would have to go back full-time for 2 years and spend a small house worth of money.

I'm located in Indianapolis...not exactly a booming finance hub but not a rural area either. Cost of living is ridiculously low compared to most "finance" cities and I enjoy it here, but relocation is certainly an option if anyone was hiring for my skillset.
People dont treat it like an MBA because it is not an MBA. Those "soft" course with "fluff" that were "thrown out" are HOW BUSINESS ACTUALLY GETS DONE. Then the bean counters can count the beans.
+1

What you are denigrating as "soft" and "fluff" courses was where some of the most valuable things I learned in my MBA were taught.

At the end of the day, you do business with people, not numbers.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by market timer » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:18 am

SpecialK22 wrote:If you read the full article you can tell that she is a nice young woman, and fairly optimistic given her situation, so I do hope things turn out well for her.
My guess is she'll almost certainly opt for one of the student loan forgiveness programs.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by dickenjb » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:29 am

SpecialK22 wrote:One thing that I think gets discounted too much is the role luck plays in people's success.
Who was it that said, "The harder I work, the luckier I get"?

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by SpecialK22 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:47 am

market timer wrote:
SpecialK22 wrote:If you read the full article you can tell that she is a nice young woman, and fairly optimistic given her situation, so I do hope things turn out well for her.
My guess is she'll almost certainly opt for one of the student loan forgiveness programs.
Unfortunately, in the full blog post she states that all her loans are private. I'm fairly certain only federal student loans are eligible for loan forgiveness.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by market timer » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:01 am

SpecialK22 wrote:
market timer wrote:
SpecialK22 wrote:If you read the full article you can tell that she is a nice young woman, and fairly optimistic given her situation, so I do hope things turn out well for her.
My guess is she'll almost certainly opt for one of the student loan forgiveness programs.
Unfortunately, in the full blog post she states that all her loans are private. I'm fairly certain only federal student loans are eligible for loan forgiveness.
We live in interesting times.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Meaty » Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:22 am

I'm fortunate to fall into this category. I'm under 30, make well over 6 figures, work 40-50 hours per week, and actually live in a very low COL area. I have a degree in Econ, but primarily I worked hard, raised my hand for the right projects, and got lucky with the timing of new opportunities.

I did have to sacrifice location. I agreed to move several times and now live half way across the country from family. It isn't easy but definitely doable; I'd recommend you get a mentor and evaluate the possibilities both in and outside of your organization to ensure you have the best probability of moving up quickly
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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by khalestorm » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:17 am

ieee488 wrote:
mathwhiz wrote:To each his own, but I'd much rather make $60k in a low stress job working 40 hours a week, than make six figures in a high stress 60+ hour a week job. Think about what makes you happy in your life. I don't think anyone on their death bed wished they spent more time at work.
+1

Perspective changes as one gets older and realizes what LIFE is about. It is about living.
+1 +1 +1. The older you get, the more you realize YOUR time is worth more than what people are willing to pay you. And with that said, it doesn't take much money to live and enjoy life.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Kosmo » Wed Sep 25, 2013 9:59 am

evostevo85 wrote:but I'm certainly not going to stop lifting and get fat.
I stopped lifting and didn't get fat. I stopped running and got fat.

For the statisticians, I maxed out around 250 lbs on bench. And that was before I messed up both shoulders playing rugby. Now I'm lucky to do pushups. So I gotta work on getting that $100k job and getting taller!

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Re: Young Guys Making Good Money

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:06 am

dickenjb wrote: +1

What you are denigrating as "soft" and "fluff" courses was where some of the most valuable things I learned in my MBA were taught.

At the end of the day, you do business with people, not numbers.
That is very true. What is harder to know is whether an MBA can *teach* those 'soft' skills (soft is a better word than fluff).

I think what we can say is that a good MBA course on Organizational Behaviour or Marketing or Operations Management etc. can give you a toolset and perspectives. They cannot teach you soft skills, but they can help you to understand how to learn about soft skills.

Negotiations was another very valuable course for business, I thought. 'Soft' but with a hard edge under it (game theory, etc.).

I remember we had a deep finance guy, who thought the personality tests in OB were complete BS. Then he took them home and showed his wife, and she said 'yes dear, that's you in a nutshell'. After spending 90 minutes discussing it in the prof's office, he became a total convert.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:10 am

nirvines88 wrote:I must have screwed something up - since I might be the only person with a low wage (<40k) job with lots of hours (average 60+)!
1. we don't know people are all telling the truth here ;-).

2. your situation is very common, in fact in the modern working world, *really* common. The job market in US and UK has just sucked for the last 5 years, and people are hunkered down trying to keep their jobs.

This is a difficult forum, because you get these doctors, lawyers and other professionals with $3m portfolios, $1m houses and $250k salaries (granted they paid their dues in tuition cost and time).

But there are a lot of people on a lot less, and the worst part is we get people who really needed to have good advice on using index funds, conservative asset allocations etc, and they didn't get it, and now they are in their 50s or early 60s and facing retirement on very little, and there's not a whole heck of a lot we can do about it.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Meg77 » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:28 am

Valuethinker wrote:
evostevo85 wrote: The credit analyst suggestion is very attractive. Should I just look for postings for "credit analyst", "commercial banking analyst", etc.? That really sounds like an excellent lifestyle and the work sounds interesting. I have no interest in rote-memorizing 18,000 pages of CFA material, so its lack of importance there is also nice.
- don't 'skate to where the puck was' -- that's not how Gretzy became the best hockey player in history

In other words, something like 'credit analyst' smells to me like a job that could be heavily automated (Fair Isaacs ie the FICO score, did that to consumer credit rankings). Now that may not be true (I don't know enough about it) but don't choose a career just because it sounds lucrative. Find something you like doing, that seems to have a demand. Maybe that *is* being a credit analyst, but investigate (Vault.com etc.) what credit analysts actually *do* and how you become one. Talk to some-- when I was considering being a lawyer I found they were very willing to talk if I bought them lunch.
I agree that it may be worth exploring and also that you should try to talk to some. If you go to the Careers website of any regional or national bank in your area you can scroll their job postings and see what they call it. I've seen Credit Specialist, Credit Analyst, Underwriter, Credit Underwriter, Analyst, Commercial Analyst, Commercial Underwriter...Some of the more specialized positions may require specific experience (like an analyst in an Energy lending group), but others don't.

You can find bankers to talk to fairly easily. Try your alumni network first; I've had people call or email me out of the blue to ask what I do because they got my info off a college alumni directory or sorority alumni directory. I'm always happy to talk to these people. Plus bankers ike to network (i.e. drink for free), so you can probably find them out at events in your city. RMA has a Young RMA division that is usually comprised of analysts and lenders under 35 who attend sponsored meetings and happy hours and luncheons. You could go to a couple of those and meet some folks and ask about what they do, where they work, etc. These jobs are often filled either by referrals from within a bank or at on campus recruiting so it would help to have someone to pass your resume along (plus most banks pay referral bonuses to employees if they hire that person's recommendation).

Good luck whatever you do!
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by GeauxBR » Wed Sep 25, 2013 10:58 am

ieee488 wrote:
mathwhiz wrote:To each his own, but I'd much rather make $60k in a low stress job working 40 hours a week, than make six figures in a high stress 60+ hour a week job. Think about what makes you happy in your life. I don't think anyone on their death bed wished they spent more time at work.
+1

Perspective changes as one gets older and realizes what LIFE is about. It is about living.
This. A few months ago I had to make the decision to stay with our small family business or switch to a petro chem plant nearby. The plant job (once my hourly pay topped out) would have been an extra 20-25k per year over what I make now but it would have been shift work and a 1hr commute each way. With a almost 2yr old and another on the way the money just wasn't worth it to miss out on that much "life".

For the purpose of the thread:
30 years old
70k/year
Work pays for my vehicle, gas/insurance, and phone..figure that adds up to a small chunk as well.
Also my flexible schedule lets me earn another 8-10k cash every summer cutting grass.

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Re: Young Guys [and Gals] Making Good Money

Post by Clearly_Irrational » Wed Sep 25, 2013 11:43 am

dickenjb wrote:
SpecialK22 wrote:One thing that I think gets discounted too much is the role luck plays in people's success.
Who was it that said, "The harder I work, the luckier I get"?
It's usually attributed to Benjamin Franklin, though there is some debate about that.

I've found it to be very true for my life.

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