Taking a "loss" on a home

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Nukeboilermaker
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Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:52 pm

All,
As we often discuss on this forum that in a majority of the US, a home is a lifestyle investment/choice opposed to a pure financial investment. We are planning on listing our home within the next few days and it is looking like we will end up taking a loss on what we purchased at 5 years ago not to mention the ~15k here and there we have put into the home during that time (bamboo floors, windows, sliding doors, entryway door, gutters, interior paint, sod and trees, a few appliances, etc etc of home ownership). We do NOT like the neighborhood we are currently located, and hate the peering eyes from the backyard neighbor. The 90 min/73 mile roundtrip commute gets a little old especially when I am going into work at 1:30 am in a snow blizzard (at least a couple times a year). About 50% of our new down payment is intended to come from the sale of our current home, which appears to be getting smaller and smaller (I'm hoping to still walk away with 15k at this point).

I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?

Cheers,
Nuke, Mrs. Nuke, and now lil Nukette
Edited: Commute info
Last edited by Nukeboilermaker on Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:12 pm

Are you selling at a "loss" from purchase price or short selling for less than you currently owe on a mortgage?

If the former, do some "mental accounting" and subtract from that $15k "loss" how much you would have spent on rent. Keeping that in mind, maybe you are just about breaking even.

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JamesSFO
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by JamesSFO » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:15 pm

Can you give us a sense of the original purchase price, expected sales price, what's the amount of the mortgage? Options for renting the property out? Doing Tues-Thurs night renting something closer to work and Fri-Mon staying at your home, etc.

It's hard to give absolutes, taking a $5K loss which would require you to pay off the mortgage if you don't have that money could be problematic...

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frugaltype
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by frugaltype » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:16 pm

Take your time choosing a new place that isn't worse in terms of neighbors or other problems.

Nukeboilermaker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:46 pm

We purchased for 149k, and the realtor seems to think we need to list at 150k, I think that is likely what the house should Sell for 150-155. However a number of other homes have failed to sell at lower price (though not as nice) has me thinking that the 150k list price isn't that far off and no matter what the home will take time to sell. We owe 120k. But if we list at 150k I'm sure the offers will be in the 140-145k range...

The home will need a roof replacement in probably under 5 years, which because it's a hipped roof that's a 10k item. Another motivating factor in all this.

dickenjb
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by dickenjb » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:36 pm

Nukeboilermaker wrote: The 45 min/73 mile commute gets a little old especially when I am going into work at 1:30 am in a snow blizzard
Yeah but at least in good weather you are averaging 97 mph. That is pretty good.

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JamesSFO
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by JamesSFO » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:10 pm

Nukeboilermaker wrote:We purchased for 149k, and the realtor seems to think we need to list at 150k, I think that is likely what the house should Sell for 150-155. However a number of other homes have failed to sell at lower price (though not as nice) has me thinking that the 150k list price isn't that far off and no matter what the home will take time to sell. We owe 120k. But if we list at 150k I'm sure the offers will be in the 140-145k range...

The home will need a roof replacement in probably under 5 years, which because it's a hipped roof that's a 10k item. Another motivating factor in all this.
So this ends up looking more like a wash then if you sell, slight loss in cash and depending on how you treat the earlier $15K but you won't be stuck with a mortgage unpaid, etc. This would to me be a pretty close call which way to go. But I would probably sell, improve my commute by renting for a bit and treat this as a lesson learned.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:28 pm

I am with James on this one, if nothing else than your own piece of mind that you would no longer be living in a neighborhood you "do NOT like"!

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Watty
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Watty » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:37 pm

I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?
You might be selling your house at a low price but you likely will also be buying your next house at a depressed price.

In fact if your next house is in a better and more expensive area then the discount on your next house could be larger than the loss on your current house.

Look at some web site like Zillow to see of you can figure out what the houses in the area you are moving to were selling for five years ago. In some ways you may have dodged a bullet but not buying in a better and more expensive area five years ago.

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bogleblitz
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by bogleblitz » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:43 pm

Yes, sell it. Sell your home for cheap and buy the new house for cheap.
Sell your home at expensive price and you will buy the new house at an expensive price.

From where I live in Boston, MA. Housing prices has gone back to the very peak a few years ago.

Nukeboilermaker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:12 am

dickenjb wrote:
Nukeboilermaker wrote: The 45 min/73 mile commute gets a little old especially when I am going into work at 1:30 am in a snow blizzard
Yeah but at least in good weather you are averaging 97 mph. That is pretty good.
Whoops! That is round trip mileage with one way travel time. Though I will not disclose if I have certainly exceeded your estimated mph on a few rare occasions :oops:

Nukeboilermaker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:30 am

Watty wrote:
I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?
You might be selling your house at a low price but you likely will also be buying your next house at a depressed price.

In fact if your next house is in a better and more expensive area then the discount on your next house could be larger than the loss on your current house.

Look at some web site like Zillow to see of you can figure out what the houses in the area you are moving to were selling for five years ago. In some ways you may have dodged a bullet but not buying in a better and more expensive area five years ago.
Unfortunately that is not the case here locally, the houses in the range we are looking for are very limited (shortage on the market). So their prices have increased since 2008-2009 time frame where my location has stayed the same if not dropped (and is starting to get saturated). A few of the homes we are considering are listing 30k+ above what they sold at when I bought my current home during the same time (so the gap is getting bigger and interest rates are going up) means I lose out even more (and can't get as much bang for my buck).

One way I thought about it to help ease the pain was to look at how much I have put into the home:
Taxes: 2900/yr (x 5 yrs)= 14,500
Maintenance/improvements: 15k (over 5 yrs)
Loss on sale: 5k
Interest:(online banking down so estimating) lets say 10k (it is likely double that)
Total= $44500 over 5 years, This correlates to a monthly rental of ~740/mo for a 4 bedroom 2200 sq ft home. I am sure I could scrub harder and figure out a way to make that number larger though :|

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midareff
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by midareff » Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:38 am

It's always tough when going home is not in a location you want to be. I believe what you need to consider is that price points have changed dramatically, in the last decade, both up and down. At the end of the day it's all relative .... if you wait a year or two to get more cash out of yours, the one you are going to will cost that much more to buy. That means the mortgage will be roughly the same since the higher price will be offset by the greater down payment provided you are going to a like priced neighborhood. If upgrading the math will, of course, be different.

Good luck with whatever choice you make.

Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Grt2bOutdoors » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:08 am

Do not count maintenance - I've spent $5K thus far, pruning and cutting down trees - will the next owner give two hoots and compensate me for that? I don't think so. :annoyed Note to self and to you - don't buy a home that has 70 foot plus towering giants with a wingspan just as large over their home.
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Valuethinker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:15 am

Nukeboilermaker wrote:All,
As we often discuss on this forum that in a majority of the US, a home is a lifestyle investment/choice opposed to a pure financial investment. We are planning on listing our home within the next few days and it is looking like we will end up taking a loss on what we purchased at 5 years ago not to mention the ~15k here and there we have put into the home during that time (bamboo floors, windows, sliding doors, entryway door, gutters, interior paint, sod and trees, a few appliances, etc etc of home ownership). We do NOT like the neighborhood we are currently located, and hate the peering eyes from the backyard neighbor. The 45 min/73 mile commute gets a little old especially when I am going into work at 1:30 am in a snow blizzard (at least a couple times a year). About 50% of our new down payment is intended to come from the sale of our current home, which appears to be getting smaller and smaller (I'm hoping to still walk away with 15k at this point).

I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?

Cheers,
Nuke, Mrs. Nuke, and now lil Nukette
As others point out the term you want is 'sunk cost fallacy'.

What you paid + invested in your home is *irrelevant* from a financial point of view. What matters, only is what you can do with the money, otherwise aka Opportunity Cost.

if the house you *want* to live in goes up more in the next few years than the one you held onto, waiting until you could sell at a book profit, then you have *lost* money.

Just generally, emotionally, in life, cutting your losses and running is the hardest thing to do, and has the highest upside in terms of happiness. Humans are hard wired emotionally to avoid taking pain ('risk averse in the domain of losses'). A short term pain costs you twice as much as a short term gain wins you-- that's been shown in the lab.

So cut your losses and move to the house you *want* to live in.

And don't forget the psychic benefits of less commute:

- more time with family and child-- you cannot have that time with your young child back, if you spend it commuting. Nobody writes on their tombstone 'I wish I had spent more time commuting'
- less risk due to dangerous driving conditions on a long commute (especially in winter and at night, when you will be more tired) - so consider the financial cost if you die prematurely (besides accidents, sitting in cars for long periods is *not* healthy)

Remember lots of Americans are not in the position you are in of being able to take your losses, and sell, and move on. And lots have lost *far* more on their houses than you have.

Take the money and run and move to a house you want to live in.

Valuethinker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Valuethinker » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:20 am

Nukeboilermaker wrote:We purchased for 149k, and the realtor seems to think we need to list at 150k, I think that is likely what the house should Sell for 150-155. However a number of other homes have failed to sell at lower price (though not as nice) has me thinking that the 150k list price isn't that far off and no matter what the home will take time to sell. We owe 120k. But if we list at 150k I'm sure the offers will be in the 140-145k range...

The home will need a roof replacement in probably under 5 years, which because it's a hipped roof that's a 10k item. Another motivating factor in all this.
You are talking about a truly trivial loss in the scheme of your whole life. I don't mean to minimize this, but say you net 130 after all is said and done (ie including some of the work you did on the place). A loss of 20k in your financial life is really very, very small.

And that future cost of repairs is a major loss that you could avoid, by getting out now.

So your choice is:

- sell now and lose maybe 15k. Get 5 years some place you really want to live, and get say 5 hours a week aka 2500 hours more irreplacable time with your young child, that you can *never* have back

- sell in 5 years and lose maybe 25k (ie assume that whatever price rise you get, the house you want to buy goes up by at least as much)

A friend bought a house in Toronto for c. $240k in *1989*. Sold in *1998* for around 180k. In between nightmare issues with tenants etc. Now *that* is suffering.

jridger2011
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by jridger2011 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:42 am

The long drive is a reason to sell and move. Think about the time you'll get back on a day to day basis not being tired from the drive.

Texas_Pete
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Texas_Pete » Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:00 am

I'm in a similar situation. I currently live in El Paso but am moving back to Central Texas at the end of the year. We rented here in El Paso but own a home in central Texas. Bought in in 2008 for 185k, rented it out the last two years while in El Paso. Wife wants to move back into the same house because she doesn't want to sell at a loss (Looks like we could sell it for 178 - 182k) but the neighborhood isn't one we particularly like. We owe 145k (refinanced in 2011 to a 15-year at 3.5%) and from a purely financial standpoint the smart thing would be to move back into it and let it keep paying down. The house next door though is a much cheaper house and the owner moved out and continually rents to terrible tenants. It is a Centex neighborhood and seems like in just the last five years the overall quality of the neighborhood has deteriorated.

My plan is to sell the house, figuring in 10% cost if we sell for 178 we would still pocket around $15k, have plenty of money saved up and eligible for VA Loan and intend to buy a house in an area we like better for around $230k. Can't put a price on peace of mind and our jobs are stressful enough without having to deal with bad neighbors or managing a rental. Just my two cents.

katsmeow
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by katsmeow » Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:23 pm

We sold a house a couple of years ago for about 10% less than we had paid for it several years earlier. And, of course, closing costs just added to it. We even had to bring a check to closing.

We don't regret it at all. In our case, we were downsizing (fewer people living in the house) and what we would save by downsizing when you looked at all the costs made it clear that we would financially be better off very quickly. As it turned out, we bought a house ultimately from some one who sold it to us for less than they had paid for it a few years earlier (that didn't make up all the loss but it helped).

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Tyrobi
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Tyrobi » Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:53 am

Nukeboilermaker wrote:I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?

Cheers,
Nuke, Mrs. Nuke, and now lil Nukette
Edited: Commute info
That would be me as I was in a similar situation recently after selling a home for a loss in Louisiana and buying another primary home in Florida. We bought our house 5 years ago in July 2008 for $177,500 and we sold it this month, August 2013, for $169k after putting it on the market in March. Couple with realtor commission fees, house repairs, and closing costs, we took a loss of about $20k.

In our case, we bought the house in Florida and relocate before we sold the old house. I fully expect the loss and I just dislike the poor public school system in Louisiana area. Today, our family really enjoys the lakeside house in Florida, and our daughter also enrolls in a good public school.

Look like you already knew housing ownership is a lifestyle choice. Decide what’s best for your family and move on.
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Valuethinker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:21 am

Tyrobi wrote:
Look like you already knew housing ownership is a lifestyle choice. Decide what’s best for your family and move on.
+1

Rodc
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Rodc » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:58 am

bogleblitz wrote:Yes, sell it. Sell your home for cheap and buy the new house for cheap.
Sell your home at expensive price and you will buy the new house at an expensive price.

From where I live in Boston, MA. Housing prices has gone back to the very peak a few years ago.
This. If downsizing you want to sell in an up market, but not otherwise.

FWIW: You can think of this as basically your interest/taxes etc are a wash more or less with if you had rented. Plus or minus of course.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

sls239
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by sls239 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:31 pm

Been there done that, suck it up.
Retirement savings and such are going to dwarf this in the long run.

One thing I would suggest is not putting in nice upgrades like bamboo flooring until you know for sure that you like the neighborhood.

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shokwaverider
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by shokwaverider » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:54 am

I have a theory about this, it was eluded to earlier by "BrandonBogle". If you buy a home and it loses value, as long as the loss is not ore than what you would have paid to rent it, you really have not lost. Remember you have to live somewhere. No there are arguments that if you were renting you would rent something more economical, but all in all this works for me. Sooner or later the prices will edge up again, in this market you should really aim to break even after fees. If you do not need to move, don't. If you need to move it is really moot. Kind of like when you are shopping for a car. You would not pay MSRP for a car if you did not REALLY need a new one. But you may do if your car completely packed up because it was past it's "due by" date and the alternative was to walk to work.

bornloser
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by bornloser » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:56 am

Another possible option (probably one you are not interested in) is converting the property to a rental, then selling later for a deductible loss.

Calm Man
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Calm Man » Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:13 pm

OP, you have a huge commute in the middle of the night no less and a nosy neighbor. The commute alone is reason. I was thinking you were going to talk about a loss of 100 or 200k when the thread started. I see now we are talking about something in the tens of thousands. I really don't understand the question. You obviously are going to sell it so why spend any energy on whether you should?

Nukeboilermaker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:28 pm

Calm Man wrote:OP, you have a huge commute in the middle of the night no less and a nosy neighbor. The commute alone is reason. I was thinking you were going to talk about a loss of 100 or 200k when the thread started. I see now we are talking about something in the tens of thousands. I really don't understand the question. You obviously are going to sell it so why spend any energy on whether you should?
I was more wanting moral support which all of you have done. Being a penny pincher 10's of thousands seem like a lot but I also don't see the 75k we have in retirement funds cause it's not right in front of me like this home is. As someone else said in big scheme of things the loss will be a blip in my financial history in 30 hrs. I'm mentally moving on and my wife and I feel good about moving forward in all this. The realtor feels the house will show very well and we listed at 152,500 and hope to sell around 149k.

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bottomfisher
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by bottomfisher » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:45 pm

Nukeboilermaker wrote: I guess I am looking for some support on if we should suck it up and sell (but at how much of a loss?) any others out there been in similar situations that can help us swallow this potential poor investment?

Cheers,
Nuke, Mrs. Nuke, and now lil Nukette
Edited: Commute info
My wife and I purchased our first home together 4 or 5 years ago. The national real estate market was already sinking. But locally things were better. We paid somewhat of a premium and there was a certain amount of speculation to this new home purchase in a yet to be fully developed neighborhood. One house over on the next block there was a larger home that was initially out of our price range. As the local real estate began to suffer too the larger house remained unsold and the asking price was being steadily lowered. My wife really wanted it because it was larger and had an additional bedroom. But the prospects for selling our newly purchased home were poor. Fortunately, we were able to finagle a deal. The developer already made his profit off of and simply wanted the other home off their books since it sat for so long unsold. We were able to sell our newly purchased 4 - 5 month old home to wife's friend for a deep discount. On paper it looks like we lost $100,000. But since the developer basically discounted that much to us for the new larger home it worked almost even for us and we obtained a larger home. So we moved 1 house down and have been there since.
Last edited by bottomfisher on Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Clearly_Irrational
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Clearly_Irrational » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:48 pm

Psychologically I think the best way to look at it is "What is the switching cost". Since you're selling one house and buying another, the only real thing that matters is how much it costs you to make the change.

Calm Man
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Calm Man » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:52 pm

Nukeboilermaker wrote:
Calm Man wrote:OP, you have a huge commute in the middle of the night no less and a nosy neighbor. The commute alone is reason. I was thinking you were going to talk about a loss of 100 or 200k when the thread started. I see now we are talking about something in the tens of thousands. I really don't understand the question. You obviously are going to sell it so why spend any energy on whether you should?
I was more wanting moral support which all of you have done. Being a penny pincher 10's of thousands seem like a lot but I also don't see the 75k we have in retirement funds cause it's not right in front of me like this home is. As someone else said in big scheme of things the loss will be a blip in my financial history in 30 hrs. I'm mentally moving on and my wife and I feel good about moving forward in all this. The realtor feels the house will show very well and we listed at 152,500 and hope to sell around 149k.
Got it. You have all of our moral support. And that starts with not making a big deal about the final sales price. AS long as you get a reasonable offer, take it. Don't quibble over a few thousand. This is a one in a decade type event for you. Because your mental and physical health is priceless. !!!!! Good luck.

lindisfarne
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by lindisfarne » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:09 pm

Nukeboilermaker wrote:

You might be selling your house at a low price but you likely will also be buying your next house at a depressed price.
Unfortunately that is not the case here locally, the houses in the range we are looking for are very limited (shortage on the market). So their prices have increased since 2008-2009 time frame where my location has stayed the same if not dropped (and is starting to get saturated). A few of the homes we are considering are listing 30k+ above what they sold at when I bought my current home during the same time (so the gap is getting bigger and interest rates are going up) means I lose out even more (and can't get as much bang for my buck).

One way I thought about it to help ease the pain was to look at how much I have put into the home:
Taxes: 2900/yr (x 5 yrs)= 14,500
Maintenance/improvements: 15k (over 5 yrs)
Loss on sale: 5k
Interest:(online banking down so estimating) lets say 10k (it is likely double that)
Total= $44500 over 5 years, This correlates to a monthly rental of ~740/mo for a 4 bedroom 2200 sq ft home. I am sure I could scrub harder and figure out a way to make that number larger though :|
If you truly want to SELL your house, it needs to be priced right for the market. It is often difficult for owners to remove their emotion from the assessment of what the home is worth. Few "upgrades" (and maintenance even less so) pay off in increased home value (so your 15K maintenance does not translate into anything close to a 15K increase in home price. The taxes you paid were for city services rendered - you used the roads, you got fire & police protection, etc. The taxes weren't "put into the house". I'd completely remove them from the equation (or else realize that any rental includes the cost of the owner's rentals, and accurately assess what a rental would have cost you in the same area). Unfortunately, you bought at a time when the market was still fairly high (although in many areas, in 2008, the market was already decreasing from absolute highs).

I'd suggest changing your thinking. For example, say to yourself "thank god I had the option of buying this house at the price ... and thank god the market in this area is at least one where houses sell".

You could ask another realtor for an assessment of what the house is worth but you should not shop around for the highest assessment - there are realtors who will assess it at more than what the market is worth just to get your listing, but then, you end up lowering the price (and the longer the house is on the market, generally the harder it is to sell - buyers start to wonder what is wrong with the market).

Houses are most likely to sell when they sell quickly, thus pricing the house correctly for the market conditions is very important. There are some markets today when inventory is so tight that pricing it slightly low can be advantageous, because that increases interest in the house & can generate multiple bids (and buyers in such a market know they may have to offer over the asking price if they really want the house).

The roof situation could become an issue when it comes to the buyer getting financing, depending on the type of loan they want and the underwriting standards. You might want to research whether certain loan types (FHA, VA?) require the roof to have a certain expected # of years left - and then not accept offers with those loan types. Even with other types of loans, it could become an issue for underwriting if it is mentioned in the inspection report.
Last edited by lindisfarne on Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Nukeboilermaker
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Re: Taking a "loss" on a home

Post by Nukeboilermaker » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:15 pm

Calm Man wrote:
Nukeboilermaker wrote:
Calm Man wrote:OP, you have a huge commute in the middle of the night no less and a nosy neighbor. The commute alone is reason. I was thinking you were going to talk about a loss of 100 or 200k when the thread started. I see now we are talking about something in the tens of thousands. I really don't understand the question. You obviously are going to sell it so why spend any energy on whether you should?
I was more wanting moral support which all of you have done. Being a penny pincher 10's of thousands seem like a lot but I also don't see the 75k we have in retirement funds cause it's not right in front of me like this home is. As someone else said in big scheme of things the loss will be a blip in my financial history in 30 hrs. I'm mentally moving on and my wife and I feel good about moving forward in all this. The realtor feels the house will show very well and we listed at 152,500 and hope to sell around 149k.
Got it. You have all of our moral support. And that starts with not making a big deal about the final sales price. AS long as you get a reasonable offer, take it. Don't quibble over a few thousand. This is a one in a decade type event for you. Because your mental and physical health is priceless. !!!!! Good luck.
That's the plan, but this thread acted as venting/therapy and will allow us to stay the course and not sweat the small things. I don't think we will loose any sleep over any of this which is important. Thanks again!

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