How to get over finance envy

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flaccidsteele
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by flaccidsteele »

unclescrooge wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:58 pm
flaccidsteele wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:43 pm
novemberrain wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:58 pm Having a NW of 3M gets a family into the 95th percentile. That means that every 20th person in the US belongs to a family with NW of 3M. That is a lot of people
+1 ^this

There are a lot of wealthy people out there

Every 1 in 100 has some solid coin!

Image

Image
How much of these numbers are skewed by the people living in California and have half their NW tied up in their million dollar homes?

A lot!
The list also shows 1% NW excluding their homes. It’s still a lot of coin!
unclescrooge wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 11:58 pm But even this number is dwarfed by the people collecting $120k pensions from union/government jobs, which works out to a net present value of $2.3 million over 30 years with an interest rate of 3%.
If you look at the list, at that age, that’s not even close to 1% NW level
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat
flaccidsteele
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by flaccidsteele »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:56 am
flaccidsteele wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 pm Everybody says they have no finance envy, and then cite that they have more wealth than their neighbours/peers/friends/coworkers/etc

That kind of proves the opposite

Evidence that a person doesn’t have finance envy would be more compelling if they said that everybody around them was in the 1%, they're always the poorest in a group, and the wealth disparity never crosses their mind

Image

Image
Those charts are completely meaningless. Of zero use or benefit to anyone. Sure, it might be easier to measure the top 1% of wealth than it is the top 1% of kindness, Integrity, or even sense of humor, but I’d FAR rather be in the top 1% of the in measurable three I mentioned. And for what it’s worth, using my wife’s age, yes, we are in the top 1% according to your little charts. But who cares? I sure don’t.

Envy is a problem for a person who knows where to find the charts of the top 1% in the US (and Canada too!), not the person who doesn’t care in the least.
+1 ^ I agree!

However, I think the data is useful to use as a goal for those who want to be in the 1% 👍🔥
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat
Wanderingwheelz
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Wanderingwheelz »

flaccidsteele wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:51 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:56 am
flaccidsteele wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 pm Everybody says they have no finance envy, and then cite that they have more wealth than their neighbours/peers/friends/coworkers/etc

That kind of proves the opposite

Evidence that a person doesn’t have finance envy would be more compelling if they said that everybody around them was in the 1%, they're always the poorest in a group, and the wealth disparity never crosses their mind

Image

Image
Those charts are completely meaningless. Of zero use or benefit to anyone. Sure, it might be easier to measure the top 1% of wealth than it is the top 1% of kindness, Integrity, or even sense of humor, but I’d FAR rather be in the top 1% of the in measurable three I mentioned. And for what it’s worth, using my wife’s age, yes, we are in the top 1% according to your little charts. But who cares? I sure don’t.

Envy is a problem for a person who knows where to find the charts of the top 1% in the US (and Canada too!), not the person who doesn’t care in the least.
+1 ^ I agree!

However, I think the data is useful to use as a goal for those who want to be in the 1% 👍🔥
Lol. “My goal is to be in the top 1% of households measured by net worth.” I wonder how many of us here could imagine ourselves saying that?

They’re all just numbers on a page. Meaningless UNLESS you’re into comparing yourself to others and it goes w/o saying that’s the wrong route to happiness.

“To cure jealousy and comparison is to see it for what it is, a dissatisfaction with self.“ Not sure who’s quote that is, but I’ve never forgotten it.
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Taylor Larimore
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Getting over finance envy

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:

When I returned home from World War II, and after seeing the terrible devastation in Europe, my parents gave me a flight around the world in a chartered airplane with the Youth Hostel organization. We visited about 30 different countries. Once again, I saw the terrible poverty of people everywhere.

Perhaps this is the reason I have never felt envy -- only gratitude for my station in life.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "I’ve known many people in the financial business who’ve said, ‘I’m really proud because I did it all myself.’ And when someone has the temerity to say that to me, and a lot of people do, the first thing I say is ‘isn’t that wonderful, you did it all yourself. And I think that’s terrific, I don’t know many people who’ve done that. But how did you arrange to be born in the United States of America?"
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
burritoLover
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by burritoLover »

The only thing worse than being jealous of the spending of others is taking the self-righteous perspective that you are somehow better than them because you might have less debt or more retirement savings (which in most cases you probably don't know for sure anyway).
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
VanGogh
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by VanGogh »

Repeat to yourself that things are not always what they seem.
flaccidsteele
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by flaccidsteele »

Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:34 pm
flaccidsteele wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 1:51 pm
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 5:56 am
flaccidsteele wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 pm Everybody says they have no finance envy, and then cite that they have more wealth than their neighbours/peers/friends/coworkers/etc

That kind of proves the opposite

Evidence that a person doesn’t have finance envy would be more compelling if they said that everybody around them was in the 1%, they're always the poorest in a group, and the wealth disparity never crosses their mind

Image

Image
Those charts are completely meaningless. Of zero use or benefit to anyone. Sure, it might be easier to measure the top 1% of wealth than it is the top 1% of kindness, Integrity, or even sense of humor, but I’d FAR rather be in the top 1% of the in measurable three I mentioned. And for what it’s worth, using my wife’s age, yes, we are in the top 1% according to your little charts. But who cares? I sure don’t.

Envy is a problem for a person who knows where to find the charts of the top 1% in the US (and Canada too!), not the person who doesn’t care in the least.
+1 ^ I agree!

However, I think the data is useful to use as a goal for those who want to be in the 1% 👍🔥
Lol. “My goal is to be in the top 1% of households measured by net worth.” I wonder how many of us here could imagine ourselves saying that?
“My goal is to be in the 1%” is fine as a goal imo 👍
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:34 pm They’re all just numbers on a page. Meaningless UNLESS you’re into comparing yourself to others and it goes w/o saying that’s the wrong route to happiness.
I agree! 👍

Money doesn’t solve happiness problems

Money solves money problems
Wanderingwheelz wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:34 pm “To cure jealousy and comparison is to see it for what it is, a dissatisfaction with self.“ Not sure who’s quote that is, but I’ve never forgotten it.
I agree

The point isn’t getting what you want, but wanting what you get
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat
flaccidsteele
Posts: 984
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Re: Getting over finance envy

Post by flaccidsteele »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:49 pm Bogleheads:

When I returned home from World War II, and after seeing the terrible devastation in Europe, my parents gave me a flight around the world in a chartered airplane with the Youth Hostel organization. We visited about 30 different countries. Once again, I saw the terrible poverty of people everywhere.

Perhaps this is the reason I have never felt envy -- only gratitude for my station in life.

Best wishes.
Taylor
+1 ^ completely agree

I’m eternally grateful for find myself where I am. Many people are in rough shape 🙏
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat
goos_news
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by goos_news »

This thread has been fascinating for the diversity of opinions, albeit we don't really have posters who are fully on the other side of the spectrum (in terms of overextension, debt and spending). I have friends/acquaintances/colleagues in that category, and others that are much better off (I presume).

I try not to judge the choices of others as it relates to spending, nor truly even the super rich. Everyone has different perspectives, wants, and dreams, and that is up to them how they get there. I stare at yachts and private planes and super fancy cars, and they don't interest me in the least and thus I don't have envy. My spouse notes when a certain acquaintance is showing off their newest Vuitton bag in social media, sharing wonder how someone could spend so much given relative to their household finances. It's not envy of the purchase, but a sense of wonder on their perspective on life and spending. There are things we would like to purchase, and we definitely do spend more than others here-- but hold off on many others.

I do echo some of the cautions posted by a minority -- don't let savings prevent timely enjoyment of some experience or even some thing that might take some money, as long as you are on track to your goals and it brings you joy. If you want (and only if you want), to do that hike in Macchu Picchu, it is best done before you hit 65 (and it was wonderful and memorable trek). There are some things worth living in the now, at a younger age or while they still remain available, while others can stay deferred. (These things may be of no interest to you, and that's great for you as well) I remember a long time ago a colleague got some good natured ribbing for cashing out and buying the car of his dreams, a 145,000 sports car, at age 28 or so. It was a tremendous expense and outlay of net worth at such a young age. Less than a year later, he lay crashing in the Emergency Room, a victim of an infection that randomly progressed to the heart. As he lay near death (he recovered, eventually), he said that he was just thankful for having achieved his dream.
novemberrain
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by novemberrain »

Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am
How about saving as much as you need, and then retiring?
How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Tingting1013
Posts: 409
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Tingting1013 »

novemberrain wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am
How about saving as much as you need, and then retiring?
How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Warren is donating the vast majority of his wealth to charity. That is absolutely not a pathology.

Saving for the sole purpose of running up the score with no plan for the money is pathological. Nowhere did I see afan say he was building up wealth to save the rainforests or some such.

Of course there is intrinsic satisfaction to be found in many MegaCorp jobs. But is it the best use of your time out of all possible uses?
rockstar
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Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by rockstar »

backpacker61 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:07 am
rockstar wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 10:46 pm I'm trying to wrap my head around this thread. I'm most happy when I'm sleeping in a tent in the woods and camping with friends.
You and I are similar. I used an 8 week sabbatical some time ago to thru hike the Colorado Trail, which took me six weeks.
All-in cost was ~2.7 K, including quite a bit of new gear; for a 6 week long trip.
Life on the trail was very simple; everything of significance fit in a ~65l pack.
Never had so much fun before or since.
Camping and backpacking are pretty cheap. Once you buy the gear, you're pretty much good to go for a while. Gear takes a while before it needs to be replaced. Then, it's spending money to get to the destinations you want to go to. My next vehicle will be even more off road capable than my current one, so I'm really not shopping for luxury vehicles either. This keeps the cost down too. Some of my friends are doing van build outs, so that they can camp at trail heads before hiking. It's a relatively cheap lifestyle. It's much cheaper than what my friends spend going golfing.
sambb
Posts: 2945
Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:31 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by sambb »

people assume that they know about others' finances, but that just isnt true. It is possible that one lives around a lot of wealth. Sure there can be people who exceed their savings, but in hcol areas, it might also be that people around are actually fairly well off. in the end, who cares, enjoy yourself.
oldfort
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by oldfort »

novemberrain wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am
How about saving as much as you need, and then retiring?
How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Urban legends about Warren Buffett living a middle class lifestyle are over-stated. For example, he had this $11 million dollar beach house for many years. He travels by private jet, unlike the merely upper class who fly commercial in first or the masses who get crammed into economy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/warren- ... -sale.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/28/warren- ... asier.html
novemberrain
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Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by novemberrain »

Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:49 pm Saving for the sole purpose of running up the score with no plan for the money is pathological. Nowhere did I see afan say he was building up wealth to save the rainforests or some such.
I didn't see afan mention anything about how he/she plans to spend his/her money. I am not sure how we can conclude that he/she is NOT planning to spend it on worthwhile endeavors. I think you made an assumption there; which might or might not be true.

Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:49 pm Of course there is intrinsic satisfaction to be found in many MegaCorp jobs. But is it the best use of your time out of all possible uses?
It is the best use of my time which matches my skills/interests with the available career choices; and which has good compensation which in turn will let me avoid being a burden on society and on top of that, lets me save some money which in the future can be used for some worthwhile endeavors by either me or some other organization.

Everyone cannot be Mother Teresa. Society also needs engineers, doctors, lawyers, government employees of all kinds, police, and yes military too.
novemberrain
Posts: 491
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by novemberrain »

oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:00 pm Urban legends about Warren Buffett living a middle class lifestyle are over-stated. For example, he had this $11 million dollar beach house for many years. He travels by private jet, unlike the merely upper class who fly commercial in first or the masses who get crammed into economy.
For a person worth 90 B, these expenses would be like a person like me surviving on rice and beans.

For argument sake, Warren is worth 90 B and say I am at 1M, that means he has 90,000 X more NW.
11M to him is like $1200 to me.
Or vice versa,
me spending $ 250,000 on a house is like him spending $22.5 Billion on a house.
austin757
Posts: 138
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:48 am

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by austin757 »

oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:00 pm
novemberrain wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:32 am
How about saving as much as you need, and then retiring?
How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Urban legends about Warren Buffett living a middle class lifestyle are over-stated. For example, he had this $11 million dollar beach house for many years. He travels by private jet, unlike the merely upper class who fly commercial in first or the masses who get crammed into economy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/warren- ... -sale.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/28/warren- ... asier.html
To be fair, he owns the company that flies him around in the jet.
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 23037
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: Getting over finance envy

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Taylor Larimore wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:49 pm Bogleheads:

When I returned home from World War II, and after seeing the terrible devastation in Europe, my parents gave me a flight around the world in a chartered airplane with the Youth Hostel organization. We visited about 30 different countries. Once again, I saw the terrible poverty of people everywhere.

Perhaps this is the reason I have never felt envy -- only gratitude for my station in life.

Best wishes.
Taylor
Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "I’ve known many people in the financial business who’ve said, ‘I’m really proud because I did it all myself.’ And when someone has the temerity to say that to me, and a lot of people do, the first thing I say is ‘isn’t that wonderful, you did it all yourself. And I think that’s terrific, I don’t know many people who’ve done that. But how did you arrange to be born in the United States of America?"
+1. I have relatives overseas, one trip there and I'm very thankful my paternal grandparents took a huge leap and moved here. Going there, is like stepping back 40 years - they have modern cars but the lack of capital has prevented widespread progress, there is no money, no jobs and dependence on government social programs. Visit, but don't get sick there. There are still buildings that were hit by the British warplanes in WWII that have still not been repaired, it's as if time stopped. I'm not envious, there are people with more, sure - more debt, more headaches. There are people with less, been there, not envious, grateful to have moved away from it.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Grt2bOutdoors
Posts: 23037
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:20 pm
Location: New York

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

austin757 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:47 pm
oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:00 pm
novemberrain wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am

How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Urban legends about Warren Buffett living a middle class lifestyle are over-stated. For example, he had this $11 million dollar beach house for many years. He travels by private jet, unlike the merely upper class who fly commercial in first or the masses who get crammed into economy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/warren- ... -sale.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/28/warren- ... asier.html
To be fair, he owns the company that flies him around in the jet.
To be fairer yet, if you think of a CEO which Warren is, the company he works for - Berkshire Hathaway, pays for the cost of flights through it's accounts payable. It's not like, oh we own the company so we will just fly on planes whenever we feel like it - it's all accounted for. The bill for the flights are charged to the parent company, Berkshire Hathaway, the revenue is earned by NetJets. I'll leave the explanation of the consolidation between affiliates to the accountants.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
oldfort
Posts: 1735
Joined: Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:45 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by oldfort »

austin757 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:47 pm
oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 8:00 pm
novemberrain wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 7:18 pm
Tingting1013 wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:13 am
afan wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 10:01 am

How about working to accomplish something? How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves? How about rejecting as a goal the constant search for hedonistic pleasure?

If you believe that your work is useful, even if it is not a source of pleasure, then there is a reason to do it beyond the money. If one's work is useful, then one might not be in a hurry to retire as soon as possible. If happiness does not come from spending then the link between happiness and retirement may be different than many on this thread suggest.

I am not looking for a period of life where I no longer have useful work to do. At some point I may find that I am still alive but health or stamina have failed. If that happens, thenI will have no further ability to be productive. I will have to accept it.

I am not looking to drop out of the ranks of the productive any earlier than I have to.
There are times when I try to put myself in someone’s shoes and utterly fail.

This is one of those times.

For many of us there is nothing particularly redeeming about what we do for work. What higher calling is satisfied by helping to sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy? As you say, this kind of work can actually be degrading to the social order.

Even if your work is a positive end in itself, there are plenty of other demands on one’s time, chief among them family.

“How about viewing building and growing a portfolio as accomplishments in themselves?”

I don’t know what to say to this, except that it sounds like a pathology.
Curious to know what you think of Warren Buffet. He is worth some 90 B and lives in like a 1M home. I have not heard of him spending any money for any indulgences apart from some cherry coke and ice cream. And on the other hand, he does enjoy growing his investment portfolio and his company. I wouldn't call that a pathology.

I am not saying that we all are mini Warrens. We all have our day jobs which generates the cash to be able to have an investment portfolio. The skill to manage an investment portfolio is one of the many things I spend my time on. Otherwise why else would I be on this site.

And many of us do sincerely love our work. Yes, I too am helping my company "sell an extra widget in a hyperconsumerist economy"; as you correctly pointed out. But my immediate work is certainly mentally challenging and satisfying to me. If our bar for meaningful work is to only work on things that do societal good, then pretty much no industry or profession will make the cut.
Urban legends about Warren Buffett living a middle class lifestyle are over-stated. For example, he had this $11 million dollar beach house for many years. He travels by private jet, unlike the merely upper class who fly commercial in first or the masses who get crammed into economy.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/warren- ... -sale.html
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/07/28/warren- ... asier.html
To be fair, he owns the company that flies him around in the jet.
There's the hierarchy of wealth:
poor - don't fly at all
middle class - fly economy
upper class - fly first
ultra rich - fly private jet
Warren Buffet level - You don't just buy a private jet, you buy the entire company
Barkingsparrow
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:09 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Barkingsparrow »

oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:05 pm There's the hierarchy of wealth:
poor - don't fly at all
middle class - fly economy
upper class - fly first
ultra rich - fly private jet
Warren Buffet level - You don't just buy a private jet, you buy the entire company
You left this out:

upper middle class - fly premium economy
Redlion
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat May 04, 2019 10:31 am

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by Redlion »

Be either rich or an enemy of the rich. I understand both, but never be envious of the rich and try to please them at the same time.
afan
Posts: 5207
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:01 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by afan »

Accumulating assets without feeling the urge to spend money just because it is there:
This is how institutions build endowments. If your favorite college, museum or foundation had spent every penny as it came in, then it would not have the funds to support programs or survive downturns like the one we are in now. Spending all the money one has, as an individual or organization, is pathologically irresponsible.

Scrooge: A prudent, frugal, successful business person until he had a psychotic break and maintained a delusion that his hallucinations were real. Those around him exploited his mental illness to get him to give them his money. A cautionary tale.

Buffett: He is welcome to do what he wants with his money. He can give it away now. He can claim that he will give it away when he dies. When he does die, he would have written his estate planning documents to give the money away as he claimed, or to do something else with it. He can blow it all on high living. Or he can do what he has done so far- conserve his assets, making him among the wealthiest people in the world. Yet he is not vilified for refusing to buy 4 new Rolls-Royce limousines everyday. He could afford to do this, why doesn't he? Pathologically hoarding money?

Socially useful work: If you think your job is of no social value, then the solution is not to drop out of the work force and do nothing. The solution is to find socially useful work. How is that morally inferior to indolence?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama
toocold
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:17 am

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by toocold »

Barkingsparrow wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:26 am
oldfort wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 9:05 pm There's the hierarchy of wealth:
poor - don't fly at all
middle class - fly economy
upper class - fly first
ultra rich - fly private jet
Warren Buffet level - You don't just buy a private jet, you buy the entire company
You left this out:

upper middle class - fly premium economy
I like Retired class: fly when you want to, not because you need to go to a business meeting. :sharebeer
toocold
Posts: 156
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2017 9:17 am

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by toocold »

afan wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 9:25 am Accumulating assets without feeling the urge to spend money just because it is there:
This is how institutions build endowments. If your favorite college, museum or foundation had spent every penny as it came in, then it would not have the funds to support programs or survive downturns like the one we are in now. Spending all the money one has, as an individual or organization, is pathologically irresponsible.
You mean like our government? Sorry I had to put that in there. :mrgreen:
SQRT
Posts: 1416
Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:44 am

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by SQRT »

burritoLover wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:55 pm The only thing worse than being jealous of the spending of others is taking the self-righteous perspective that you are somehow better than them because you might have less debt or more retirement savings (which in most cases you probably don't know for sure anyway).
Agree, I think the latter state of mind somehow is an attempt to compensate for the first?
burritoLover
Posts: 328
Joined: Sun Jul 05, 2020 12:13 pm

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by burritoLover »

SQRT wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:22 am
burritoLover wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:55 pm The only thing worse than being jealous of the spending of others is taking the self-righteous perspective that you are somehow better than them because you might have less debt or more retirement savings (which in most cases you probably don't know for sure anyway).
Agree, I think the latter state of mind somehow is an attempt to compensate for the first?
Yeah could be.
"Your money is like a bar of soap. The more you handle it, the less you’ll have." - Gene Fama
flaccidsteele
Posts: 984
Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2019 9:42 pm
Location: Canada

Re: How to get over finance envy

Post by flaccidsteele »

burritoLover wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:35 am
SQRT wrote: Tue Sep 22, 2020 10:22 am
burritoLover wrote: Mon Sep 21, 2020 2:55 pm The only thing worse than being jealous of the spending of others is taking the self-righteous perspective that you are somehow better than them because you might have less debt or more retirement savings (which in most cases you probably don't know for sure anyway).
Agree, I think the latter state of mind somehow is an attempt to compensate for the first?
Yeah could be.
+1 ^this
The US market always recovers. It’s never different this time. Retired in my 40s. Investing is a simple game of rinse and repeat
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