Which Med school?

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ram
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Which Med school?

Post by ram »

My daughter is a Junior at Univ of Wisconsin, Madison and will graduate with a major in Biology and minor in Global Health in Dec 2013. By the end of her 5th semester, she has completed 95% of the credits required to graduate and has a GPA of 4.0. Earlier today we learnt that she got MCAT score of 37 (max 45). Currently she is doing an 8 week internship with Child and Family Health International (CFHI) working at underserved clinics in India.

1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target. She will certainly apply to UW-Madison which has a mean MCAT of 31 for the accepted candidates and 20% of Wisconsinites who apply are accepted as compared to 1.3 % of candidates from out of state.

The other schools data is as follows-
Name, Mean MCAT, In-state acceptance (%), Out of state acceptance (%)
Stanford, 35, 1.7 / 1.6
Johns Hopkins, 35, 5.5 / 1.9
Duke, 35, 4.3 / 1.8
Washington Univ St Louis, 37, 5.3 / 3.1
Vanderbilt, 35, 6.1 / 1.9
Yale, 35, 5.6 / 2.0
Mayo, 35, 3.8 / 0.9
Medical College of Wisconsin Milwaukee, 30, 16.3 / 2.2
Other suggestions welcome.

2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?

3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec 2013 and will have free time for the next 6-7 months (Jan 2014 to July 2014). Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.

Edit- Later added-
We had promised her that we would pay a total of 250 K for ALL of her education. After taking into consideration her scholarships the eventual cost of her undergrad education will come to about 60 K. This will leave 190 K for med school. Thus even if she ends up at some of the high cost private schools her educational debt might not be very big and presumably she will be able to pay it from savings during residency/fellowship. The "hope" is that she starts as an attending with zero debt. The choice of the state school at the undergrad level was made with the idea that from a financial point more options would be available for med school/ professional school.

Whether she becomes a medical researcher, an academician or clinician in a community setting is simply not known at this point. However all options are possible at this time.
Last edited by ram on Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ram
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zebrafish
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by zebrafish »

ram wrote:My daughter is a Junior at Univ of Wisconsin, Madison and will graduate with a major in Biology and minor in Global Health in Dec 2013. By the end of her 5th semester, she has completed 95% of the credits required to graduate and has a GPA of 4.0. Earlier today we learnt that she got MCAT score of 37 (max 45). Currently she is doing an 8 week internship with Child and Family Health International (CFHI) working at underserved clinics in India.

1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target. She will certainly apply to UW-Madison which has a mean MCAT of 31 for the accepted candidates and 20% of Wisconsinites who apply are accepted as compared to 1.3 % of candidates from out of state.
Apply to every single medical school, public and private, in her (= your) state of residence. Every single one. I would apply to at least 20 other schools (I might do 25 or 30). You can always turn down interviews, but honestly going on interviews is good because it gets you better at interviewing and more likely to get in. I applied to medical school in 1994 and I applied to over 30 schools for MD and MD/PhD programs. I went to an elite private liberal arts college, had an A- average, had published a peer-reviewed journal article as first-author, was an academic All-American captain of a college sports team, and had very good MCAT scores. Out of ~30 applications, I was interviewed at probably ~10 schools and accepted at ~7. As far as picking out of state schools, apply to all the ones you listed. Pick a bunch more-- mainly private schools who are probably looking at out of state candidates. All you need to do is get into one. And you don't know what the schools are really looking at to cut down their mountain of applications. They have screens, you just cannot know what they are.

I can honestly say that there appeared to be a significant random factor in the selection process for who gets interviewed. There are tons of applicants. The more schools you apply to, the better chance you have of getting into one of them. For example, I was accepted to Dartmouth, U of Penn, Albert Einstein, and every school in Ohio. I was outright rejected without interview by many lesser schools than Penn/Dartmouth (eg Pitt, all UC schools, BU, etc. etc. etc.). God only knows why. If I hadn't applied to Penn or Dartmouth, then I would have gone to a school with a far lesser prestige factor (I'm not saying that is critical, but...).
ram wrote:2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?
Absolutely do not mention turning down Duke/Johns Hopkins for UW-Madison. She'll seem like a total snob-- I would look at that negatively. There might be a way of tucking the scholarship issue into the application without seeming like a braggart, but one would need to use discretion. Ultimately, her record speaks for itself. She should be proud of her school-- after all, she is trying to convince a med school that it prepared her well for their curriculum.

In the application, they are looking for numbers (GPA, MCAT scores). In the personal statement, they are looking for something that really reflects who you are as a person (it should not be a list of accomplishments) and that you have the elements of a caring person. In the interview, they are really seeing if you are a human being that can relate to other human beings-- are you personable, warm, well-spoken, confident but not overconfident.
ram wrote:3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
I would focus on the thing that she prefers more. And whatever she picks to focus on (research or reservation), go "all out" and really make a positive impression on these people who are going to likely be writing her a letter of recommendation. Honestly, the reservation thing will probably stand out as more unique. But she should do what fits with her own desires, not what she thinks the schools would want. Because she will do a better job doing something she really likes.

Good luck. You must be proud of her.
obgraham
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by obgraham »

Well, I went to U of Wisconsin Med School, eons ago.

Here's my advice, and it relates to which school to choose of the ones that she is accepted at. I'll leave the application process up to those more current, such as the poster below.

The main issue is: what does she want to do? If she wants to work in an academic heavyweight institution as a researcher or full time teaching, then you never go wrong by picking the top name school possible. Stanford. Duke. Haaaahvad. Hopkins. Likewise, if she thinks she would like a residency in one of those named centers, they basically recruit from among themselves.

However, if she wants to just be a doctor, either primary care or specialty, then the choice of school is almost irrelevant. And therefore, the best might well be staying local, such as UWisc, which would save considerable dollars. In fact, I'll go so far as to say that a more "ordinary" school is a better choice, as you don't spend so much time thinking how good your institution is. Medical education is an extremely elitist institution.

Also of importance is if she has her mind set on a certain locality to practice -- most institutions recruit heavily from their own graduates.

The vast majority of residency programs, beyond the type I mentioned, don't care where you went to medical school. And I can guarantee that when she looks for a private practice job, they won't even ask (well they will, but they dont care) which medical school she attended. They are more interested in where she did her residency and did it prepare her for the job in question.

I offer as proof, my daughter, a somewhate rebellious (!) child who flunked out of college, and then attended a DO school of no great renown. She scored a residency in a major medical center, and was heavily recruited to join them as an attending physician, which she now is.

Addendum: of the schools on your list, the only one I might be negative about is Mayo. It's a "all private patient" business, perhaps not the best for a teaching school. Also, Wash U in St Louis is sometimes underrated -- it is a superb institution.
SteveinVanvcouverWA
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by SteveinVanvcouverWA »

I agree about applying to 20+ schools. I was cocky because my grades were good so applied to only a few med schools and was accepted at just one. Then when I was on the interview trail I met a young woman who applied to 22 med schools and was rejected by all so far but Harvard. Go figure. The interviews can be very subjective and fickle, so applying to more schools increases her chances of interviewing with someone who just happens to have her same interests.
travellight
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by travellight »

I only applied to one school back in the day and was lucky enough to get in. Sounds like times have changed though and she should apply to at least 20.

I would strongly agree to not mention that she was offered spots at Hopkins and Duke; it can only do harm.
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bertie wooster
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by bertie wooster »

With a 4.0 GPA and a 37 MCAT she'll definitely get into UW. I'd recommend that be her top choice. If she does well then she can go to a big name place for residency if she so desires, but paying private school tuition when she has an in-state option is not wise in my opinion. I don't know much about UW - but I understand it is a very good institution so I'd imagine she can't go wrong there. I see no point in going to Stanford or UCSF for med school when you can to UW (unless you have lots of money and can pay her tuition/living costs with no problem). We're not talking business or law school here - all med schools offer pretty good education and if you do well at UW you can get into a residency in most specialties darn near anywhere.

The above posters are correct, applying to lots of schools is a good idea, but I think 20 is overkill. I went to school in Texas and just applied to the in-state schools and ended up cancelling half, but I was lucky in that there are 6-7 schools there. She doesn't have that luxury in Wisconsin unfortunately.

My recommendation is to apply to 15 or so schools, 10 (perhaps overkill) of which are elite (and I'd recommend coming to the west coast, but I'm a bit biased!), 1 of which is UW, and the remaining 5 as mid to low level private schools as a "backup" (I'm assuming you have only 1 in state option).

Regarding the application - all that really matters are numbers (MCAT and GPA) at most places. No one cares about your letters (they all say the same thing) unless they are bad and no one cares about your personal statement (unless you come off as arrogant or excessively weird). Then you go interview and again - unless you come off as a total tool, your numbers will get you in. Since her numbers are darn near unbeatable (37 is more than 3 std deviations above the mean I believe) she'll get in no problem. People talk about volunteering and doing all this extra stuff, but I'm not sure it matters much. I didn't do any volunteering and I didn't work in medicine at all and I had no problem (but I did go to school a few years after most of my peers and had unique work experience).

All of the above is based on my personal experience - YMMV.

Congrats to your daughter and best of luck!
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by White Coat Investor »

Apply to your own state school. Then apply to schools that take out of state people. If a school's matriculants are 95% their own residents (and you're not) don't waste your time and money.
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ks289
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ks289 »

Congratulations!
She will have an excellent chance at having several great choices for medical school. You can go right down the list as far as applying since as other posters mentioned the number of slots is so limited and admissions very unpredictable.

Why not Harvard, Columbia P&S, Cornell, or Penn also? You may find a good fit at any one of these places during the interview process. Is there a northeast bias going on? :happy

If cost is a concern obviously your instate will cost a bit less (tuition and other total living costs for Wisconsin is currently at $46,000/year vs $60,000-70,000/year for privates).
Some great medical schools offer a small handfull of full ride merit scholarships as I am sure you are aware. My good friend got one at WashU/St. Louis and I believe Vanderbilt offers a few of these too (less than 10 per year).

Good luck!
jabroni108
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by jabroni108 »

Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.
bornloser
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by bornloser »

jabroni108 wrote:Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.
Have to agree with this. State medical school graduate here. It sounds like you made the wise financial choice NOT to overpay for a private undergrad school. With the the GPA, MCAT, and experience listed, your child will most certainly get in a state med school. Unless your daughter wants to go into academic medicine, I definitely would NOT consider the overpriced private schools. The amount of debt from a private school will be staggering and very burdensome. There is simply no advantage of an IVY med school over a good state school. I work with colleagues from all over and the training is very similar. Tulane, once a fairly prestigious private medical school, is now viewed by many to be behind the other two public LA medical schools. The same can be said for Vanderbilt. Had a fellow resident from Vandy (kind of chubby guy, called him the "pandy from Vandy") who had over 150k debt from med school....and I had paid off mine. Good luck.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by czeckers »

I would agree that education cost is an important consideration, especially given today's high interest rates on student loans and trend toward lower physican reimburesement. My education debt is "only" $140,000 which is less than half of many of my colleagues. Considering folks are paying 6-9% interest on their loans, that can be a significant financial burden. It may also make one consider a specialty based on renumeration and not on passion. It will also affect choice of job, where you live, etc. so the effects are far-reaching.

I also agree with the idea of casting a broad net with applications. You never know and you'd hate to lose a year.

Many medical schools are looking for those interested in research, so spending time doing research during her time off will definitely look favorably on her application.

Good luck!

-K
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Van
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by Van »

jabroni108 wrote:Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.
This would only be correct if she became, for example, a general practitioner and was in a private practice somewhere. If she wants to specialize or go into academic medicine, where she went to medical school will be very important.
ekphora
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ekphora »

jabroni108 wrote:Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.
As someone who took the other path of going to an expensive private school (Harvard Med in this case), I think there is a case to be made for private schools, but it really depends on her career aspirations. About half of my class ended up in the highly compensated sub-specialties (e.g., we filled 10% of the national rad onc positions my year), and most of the others ended up at strong internal medicine programs (MGH, Brigham) and specialized afterwards. There are a lot of private schools that don't confer on you much advantage when it comes to your residency options, but I think a handful of schools do - Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Penn, Hopkins among others.

I walked away with a bit north of $120k in debt, as HMS was generous with funding and took advantage of historically low interest rates (with my remaining $85k in debt under the 2% mark). Beyond that, if she has an interest in Global Health, Harvard has a community of some of the best global health researchers and institutions - e.g., Partners in Health, which was co-founded by Paul Farmer and Jim Kim (both giants in the field). Exposure to these kinds of minds plus the opportunity to continue doing field work (if she wants) shaped the academic careers of several of my classmates.

I think obgraham is spot on - it really depends on what she wants to do. IMO, if she wants to be an academic, do GPH work or (more easily) get into a high paying sub-specialty, going to a top school can help.
lightheir
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by lightheir »

Agree with above.

Cost is a real concern with ALL schools today, and med school is no different. And yes, you can match into top specialties even from state schools, and sometimes even from the least academically well-known of them.

However, having gone through this whole thing recently, I'd definitely tell you to exercise caution with the decide based on cost mentality. Truth is, that ALL MDs can absolutely pay off their student debts. There are no practicing MDs that are impoverished because of student debts. Anyone that tells you that they are is lying - they're either not working or have ancillary reasons why they are underemployed. Even the lowest-paid of the general specialties will be able to readily repay their debts and live a comfortable lifestyle within a few years out of practice. (You'll be subminimum wage before your attending years, though, so it's not all gravy.)

The far more difficult situation is to match into your chosen specialty out of medical school. Like it or not, the elite schools have it substantially easier to match into competitive specialties (derm, radonc, radiology, ortho). It is still by no means guaranteed to do so even if you do come from a top institution, but it is absolutely true that you are fighting an uphill battle, and progressively so the less prestigious your institution is. And unfortunately, medicine is a conservative enough establishment that they place enormous weight on your pedigree.

My spouse matched into dermatology (the most competitive speciality). She interviewed at a lot of schools so I know the experience well. At most of her interviews, even at the least pretigious schools, ivy-med school applicants made up the vast majority of the interviewees. And the stats for the derm match from the state university are typically 1-2/200 medical students, or about a 1% match rate. Compare with a place like Yale/Stanford/Harvard where can often be near 10% - literally a 10x more likehood of matching. And the reasons for this match rate were absolutely not because the state school students had inferior board scores - they almost invariably have substantially BETTER board scores because they can't rely on the school pedigree to get them in. (Board scores actually are probably the LEAST important factor unless your score is very low. Having a high board score gives ZERO help in the match, and avg board scores for residencies reflect this.)

So consider carefully. You unfortunately never know what specialty will draw you the most early on in your career, and few things are more disappointing than finding a career that you truly love but being unable to match into it.
Andyrunner
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by Andyrunner »

I would very highly recommend looking at Mayo. Not only will she experience working hands on, but would be with some of the best medical staff in the world. She will have opportunities in both clinical and research. Plus, I would assume you live regionally and she would be closer to family. Finally they treat their students very very well.

But I am very biased. I work em :happy , I can't relate much more as I'm a beancounter/accountant, but I have plenty of friends who are residents or students.
pochax
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by pochax »

regarding your questions:
1) all those schools are very good - but i agree with others that although she is better than the mean scores, interviews and admissions can be fickle - apply to more "backup" schools. you don't want to be on the short end of the stick (had one classmate who "aced" the MCATs with a 42 out of 45 and got rejected from Harvard, Yale, Johns Hopkins, and ONLY got into Stanford...lucky dog). also agree that if she has any plans for an academic/research type of career the bigger name MAY garner her some prestige and networking contacts - but in general clinical practice, the name of your school is more or less irrelevant.

2) Agree with others - don't mention it. no one really cares.

3) 6-7 months is not a whole lot of time and she will likely be interviewing during that time period so make sure whatever she does she is flexible. she may even want to take time to travel or explore something unique before the "rigors" of med school/residency that follows.
sscritic
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by sscritic »

ks289 wrote:Is there a northeast bias going on?
That's my take when someone describes UCSF and UCLA as inferior schools not to be even mentioned in the same breadth as the world renowned Geisel School of Medicine (famed home of the Cat in the Hat).
retinasurgeon
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by retinasurgeon »

jabroni108 wrote:Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.

I disagree, if she wanted to go into academics, I think most academic programs do care about where you went to school. If she wants to do a regular practice, most patients probably don't care where you went to medical school. However, if she is in any way interested in academics, I wouldn't rule out that route by going to a non-brand medical school, even though it is pretty inane since I think most of the top tier schools are pretty even.

As the poster stated above, I would definitely apply to more than 20 programs. Also if she is thinking about academics, please consider the Medical Scientist Training Program! Dual degree, M.D. and Ph.D., all expenses paid including tuition and stipend for 7-8 years of medical / graduate school. The program is definitely looking for talented students like your daughter, and it is definitely a wonderful experience. She will come out debt free through this program. Obviously it is pretty competitive, but I think your daughter may enjoy that route if she is interested in doing basic science and clinical work.

Med schools are notoriously competitive and very fickle about their applicants, and they detest hubris and respect true humility. At times there seems to be no rhyme or reason for how students are selected.

Despite being competitive, the numbers can be a little misleading. You have to realize that even though Harvard/Hopkins/Yale matriculates only 2.0% of their applicants, they are really looking at the same applicant pool, which your daughter is a part of. Some people with terrible numbers really have no chance of getting into medical school, but apply anyway, which make the numbers appear dismal. I would say that they probably accept closer to 5.0-6.0% of applicants, since someone accepted at Harvard can't also go to Hopkins, and the same person is likely to be accepted to both. If you get what I mean.

Otherwise, congratulations, your daughter sounds like a great candidate for medical school, and sounds like a sincere and dedicated person. We need more people like her in the profession.
ResNullius
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ResNullius »

Well, I'm not a physician, but my wife is. I'm a recovering/retired attorney. In my view, anyone seriously considering starting medical school today needs to think long and hard about what they are getting ready to do. The time it takes, the money it takes, the energy it takes is huge. Start today, and you won't be a practicing doc for at least 7 years, probably longer. I think that medical school today isn't a good bet if you're concerned about having a good and reasonably prosperous and satisfying life down the road. Just my two cents.
drdrowsy
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by drdrowsy »

Re: cost of attending state v. private schools

Private schools tend to have more money available for grants (either need based or occasionally merit based). State schools tend not to have that kind of money. When I went to medical school I was chosing between my NJ state school and a NY Ivy league institution. After grants from the private school, costs to me were the same or lower at the private school. Total costs after at the private institution were ~130k, all inclusive. (I graduated <10 years ago)
am
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by am »

Choose the cheapest school. If you do well in medical school, you can match anywhere. If you have less debt, you can be more flexible with regard to specialty choice. How good a doctor you are will be determined by your personal qualities and to a lesser extent where you trained for residency. Do not get to involved in the name hype. It is much much less important than in most other fields.
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bottomfisher
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by bottomfisher »

1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target.
I recommend applying to many different schools and interviewing as many finacially possible if interview offers were to be extended. Its difficult to say how many she should interview at not knowing how competitive her application is overall. But I would strongly recommend a state medical school over private if she is accepted.
2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?

I personally don't think this is pertinent on an inital medical school application. It may come up during an interview. It is an honorable accomplishment even though she decided not to attend. And it can be discussed in the interview if the topic were to come up.
) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
I would encourage her to continue both these activites in the interim. They both add to strength of her application should she not get accepted this year. She should find out sooner than 6 or 7 months whether she was accepted and then make further plans accordingly.
protagonist
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by protagonist »

ram wrote:My daughter is a Junior at Univ of Wisconsin, Madison and will graduate with a major in Biology and minor in Global Health in Dec 2013. By the end of her 5th semester, she has completed 95% of the credits required to graduate and has a GPA of 4.0. Earlier today we learnt that she got MCAT score of 37 (max 45). Currently she is doing an 8 week internship with Child and Family Health International (CFHI) working at underserved clinics in India.

1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target. She will certainly apply to UW-Madison which has a mean MCAT of 31 for the accepted candidates and 20% of Wisconsinites who apply are accepted as compared to 1.3 % of candidates from out of state.

The other schools data is as follows-
Name, Mean MCAT, In-state acceptance (%), Out of state acceptance (%)
Stanford, 35, 1.7 / 1.6
Johns Hopkins, 35, 5.5 / 1.9
Duke, 35, 4.3 / 1.8
Washington Univ St Louis, 37, 5.3 / 3.1
Vanderbilt, 35, 6.1 / 1.9
Yale, 35, 5.6 / 2.0
Mayo, 35, 3.8 / 0.9
Medical College of Wisconsin Milwaukee, 30, 16.3 / 2.2
Other suggestions welcome.

2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?

3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
I hope you don't take offense here, and I'm probably sticking my neck out, but it sounds like you are trying to overly micro-manage a very intelligent young adult's life. These are decisions she is perfectly capable of making on her own, based on her own educational and personal needs and desires. Whether she works in a research lab or volunteers on a reservation is her business...both would probably be great experiences. And which med school should she attend? Unless you are paying and the issue is money for you (in which case, of course, your involvement in the decision is important based on what you are willing or able to pay) , she should be able to figure that out for herself. As a doc (previously on academic admission committee) and a dad, my suggestion is "back off" and let her grow up. She probably has already.

The one question I may be able to help you with is the scholarship one. If it was an academic scholarship based on merit, mention the scholarship as an academic achievement but not the schools she turned down (which, if mentioned, may send a message to the admissions committee that she will turn THEM down as well if she gets a better financial offer). If it was financial aid, don't mention it.
Sanbalto
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by Sanbalto »

Statistics, when it comes to medical schools, can be very misleading. But for guessing what the schools cutoff for interviews are, they don't provide much information. The majority of applicants will have stats similar to your daughter. She should apply to any school she could see herself going. Schools are often looking for the "x factor" in applicants. Something that makes them stand out.

I agree with the poster that you should perhaps back off a bit in this process. I too am not trying to be rude at all. Your daughter needs to take control of this on her own. Additionally, not knowing your situation, I would always be worried that family pressure may be driving her into medical school. Please don't take any of that the wrong way. But this is the time for your daughter to take complete control of her life.

Lastly, please have your daughter talk to some female doctors. Preferably ones with families and with different specialities (a primary care doc, surgeon, etc.). I think this is the best thing you can do for her. The field of medicine is wonderful and I could not imagine doing anything else. But it is a long journey full of sacrifices. These sacrifices can particularly affect women when it comes to starting families. I know plenty of female colleagues who are able to balance theses things, but have also met colleagues (both male and female) who weren't willing to make the sacrifice and dropped out or continued down an unhappy road.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by arsenal7 »

ram wrote:My daughter is a Junior at Univ of Wisconsin, Madison and will graduate with a major in Biology and minor in Global Health in Dec 2013. By the end of her 5th semester, she has completed 95% of the credits required to graduate and has a GPA of 4.0. Earlier today we learnt that she got MCAT score of 37 (max 45). Currently she is doing an 8 week internship with Child and Family Health International (CFHI) working at underserved clinics in India.

1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target. She will certainly apply to UW-Madison which has a mean MCAT of 31 for the accepted candidates and 20% of Wisconsinites who apply are accepted as compared to 1.3 % of candidates from out of state.

The other schools data is as follows-
Name, Mean MCAT, In-state acceptance (%), Out of state acceptance (%)
Stanford, 35, 1.7 / 1.6
Johns Hopkins, 35, 5.5 / 1.9
Duke, 35, 4.3 / 1.8
Washington Univ St Louis, 37, 5.3 / 3.1
Vanderbilt, 35, 6.1 / 1.9
Yale, 35, 5.6 / 2.0
Mayo, 35, 3.8 / 0.9
Medical College of Wisconsin Milwaukee, 30, 16.3 / 2.2
Other suggestions welcome.

2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?

3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
Two years ago I was on the admissions committee at one of the first seven institutions you have listed where i am now a resident. As usual this forum is giving you good advice.

Your daughter does not need to apply to 40 places given her undergraduate performance. She does need to create a mix of places she would love to go to and places she is very confident she will get in. She needs 3-4 places like Medical College of WIsconsin on her list. After that, if she wants to apply to 20 places vs 15 places is all down to how many of the Stanford, Mayo, Hopkins, Harvard tier she wants to go for. In my opinion and based on my experience on our committee, if she includes Madison and 3-4 schools like Medical College of Wisconsin on her list, any number of applications over 15-20 is overkill. I applied to 13 with similar undergrad/MCAT numbers from a lesser known undergraduate school.

The issue of cost vs a big name medical school is a much more difficult question and one that, in my opinion, is less cut and dry than some of the previous posters have conveyed. Big name schools can help you with competitive residencies and will open doors if you thrive. However, this makes a rather large assumption that she will do equally well at the big name school vs her in state and well regarded UW Madison. In other words it doesn't matter where she goes if she is in the bottom half her class and has no clinical honors. This is obviously way down the road for her given she likely has no idea what she is interested in and would probably switch a few times even if she did. I just think its a really complex decision that you won't really know which way was "right" until you are looking back at things 5 years from now. She should go where she thinks she can do well, fit in, and be in an environment to succeed/work hard.

Lastly, make sure she knows there are many many kids with great scores and MCATs. That may sound harsh and i am sure you are extremely proud of her great work so far... but I was stunned how many people I have interviewed for medical school or ate with at residency interview dinners that have a drastic sense of entitlement due to grades, scores, or their paper application. While both medical school and residency are heavily based on numbers like that, alot of it is selecting people who you want to work with-- who will stay late to help the team when you are getting slammed on call, etc... Have her do a few mock interviews with people who commonly interview candidates so she can avoid coming off as someone she isn't.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

Thank you all for all the excellent advice.
Some additional info- We had promised her that we would pay a total of 250 K for ALL of her education. After taking into consideration her scholarships the eventual cost of her undergrad education will come to about 60 K. This will leave 190 K for med school. Thus even if she ends up at some of the high cost private schools her educational debt might not be very big and presumably she will be able to pay it from savings during residency/fellowship. The "hope" is that she starts as an attending with zero debt. The choice of the state school at the undergrad level was made with the idea that from a financial point more options would be available for med school/ professional school.

She may or may not end up as a med researcher or as an academician. Considering the fact that a 'brand name' med school may help in this regard I do not plan to discourage her from attending a brand name school if she is accepted and wants to attend.

There are only 2 med schools in the state of Wisconsin and she will apply to both. She will apply to at least 5 'safe' schools and probably about 15 or so 'reach' schools.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

zebrafish wrote:
ram wrote:3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
I would focus on the thing that she prefers more. And whatever she picks to focus on (research or reservation), go "all out" and really make a positive impression on these people who are going to likely be writing her a letter of recommendation. Honestly, the reservation thing will probably stand out as more unique. But she should do what fits with her own desires, not what she thinks the schools would want. Because she will do a better job doing something she really likes.

Good luck. You must be proud of her.
Thanks Zebrafish for the detailed advice.
She will be interviewing in fall 2013 and the research/ volunteering will be after the interviews are done. Might still be useful if she has to interview next year.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

ks289 wrote:Congratulations!
She will have an excellent chance at having several great choices for medical school. You can go right down the list as far as applying since as other posters mentioned the number of slots is so limited and admissions very unpredictable.

Why not Harvard, Columbia P&S, Cornell, or Penn also? You may find a good fit at any one of these places during the interview process. Is there a northeast bias going on? :happy

If cost is a concern obviously your instate will cost a bit less (tuition and other total living costs for Wisconsin is currently at $46,000/year vs $60,000-70,000/year for privates).
Some great medical schools offer a small handfull of full ride merit scholarships as I am sure you are aware. My good friend got one at WashU/St. Louis and I believe Vanderbilt offers a few of these too (less than 10 per year).

Good luck!
Thanks,
I believe Wash U has some scholarships specifically for women. She will apply to Vandy and Wash U.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

ekphora wrote:
jabroni108 wrote:Go to the cheapest med school available (that is in the US and is accredited). She has great applicant statistics. No one will care where she went to school after she has been practicing medicine for 1 year.
As someone who took the other path of going to an expensive private school (Harvard Med in this case), I think there is a case to be made for private schools, but it really depends on her career aspirations. About half of my class ended up in the highly compensated sub-specialties (e.g., we filled 10% of the national rad onc positions my year), and most of the others ended up at strong internal medicine programs (MGH, Brigham) and specialized afterwards. There are a lot of private schools that don't confer on you much advantage when it comes to your residency options, but I think a handful of schools do - Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Penn, Hopkins among others.

I walked away with a bit north of $120k in debt, as HMS was generous with funding and took advantage of historically low interest rates (with my remaining $85k in debt under the 2% mark). Beyond that, if she has an interest in Global Health, Harvard has a community of some of the best global health researchers and institutions - e.g., Partners in Health, which was co-founded by Paul Farmer and Jim Kim (both giants in the field). Exposure to these kinds of minds plus the opportunity to continue doing field work (if she wants) shaped the academic careers of several of my classmates.

I think obgraham is spot on - it really depends on what she wants to do. IMO, if she wants to be an academic, do GPH work or (more easily) get into a high paying sub-specialty, going to a top school can help.
Thanks for an alternate perspective. Go for the cheapest one is the traditional advise on this board and almost always works well. But this situation might be one where I would at least consider deviating from standard practice. She has had an opportunity to meet and talk with Dr Farmer and was very much influenced by his work.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

lightheir wrote:Agree with above.

Cost is a real concern with ALL schools today, and med school is no different. And yes, you can match into top specialties even from state schools, and sometimes even from the least academically well-known of them.

However, having gone through this whole thing recently, I'd definitely tell you to exercise caution with the decide based on cost mentality. Truth is, that ALL MDs can absolutely pay off their student debts. There are no practicing MDs that are impoverished because of student debts. Anyone that tells you that they are is lying - they're either not working or have ancillary reasons why they are underemployed. Even the lowest-paid of the general specialties will be able to readily repay their debts and live a comfortable lifestyle within a few years out of practice. (You'll be subminimum wage before your attending years, though, so it's not all gravy.)

The far more difficult situation is to match into your chosen specialty out of medical school. Like it or not, the elite schools have it substantially easier to match into competitive specialties (derm, radonc, radiology, ortho). It is still by no means guaranteed to do so even if you do come from a top institution, but it is absolutely true that you are fighting an uphill battle, and progressively so the less prestigious your institution is. And unfortunately, medicine is a conservative enough establishment that they place enormous weight on your pedigree.

My spouse matched into dermatology (the most competitive speciality). She interviewed at a lot of schools so I know the experience well. At most of her interviews, even at the least pretigious schools, ivy-med school applicants made up the vast majority of the interviewees. And the stats for the derm match from the state university are typically 1-2/200 medical students, or about a 1% match rate. Compare with a place like Yale/Stanford/Harvard where can often be near 10% - literally a 10x more likehood of matching. And the reasons for this match rate were absolutely not because the state school students had inferior board scores - they almost invariably have substantially BETTER board scores because they can't rely on the school pedigree to get them in. (Board scores actually are probably the LEAST important factor unless your score is very low. Having a high board score gives ZERO help in the match, and avg board scores for residencies reflect this.)

So consider carefully. You unfortunately never know what specialty will draw you the most early on in your career, and few things are more disappointing than finding a career that you truly love but being unable to match into it.
Point taken. Fortunately we are in a position where she can go to a costlier school and still come out without major debt.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

retinasurgeon wrote:
If she wanted to go into academics, I think most academic programs do care about where you went to school.

Med schools are notoriously competitive and very fickle about their applicants, and they detest hubris and respect true humility. At times there seems to be no rhyme or reason for how students are selected.

Despite being competitive, the numbers can be a little misleading. You have to realize that even though Harvard/Hopkins/Yale matriculates only 2.0% of their applicants, they are really looking at the same applicant pool, which your daughter is a part of. Some people with terrible numbers really have no chance of getting into medical school, but apply anyway, which make the numbers appear dismal. I would say that they probably accept closer to 5.0-6.0% of applicants, since someone accepted at Harvard can't also go to Hopkins, and the same person is likely to be accepted to both. If you get what I mean.

Otherwise, congratulations, your daughter sounds like a great candidate for medical school, and sounds like a sincere and dedicated person. We need more people like her in the profession.
I agree. Just last year we went through the process of applying for undergrad colleges for my son. He was accepted at 6 or 7 'name' schools, but of course ended up at one only.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by StormShadow »

ram wrote: 1) I would like to ask the audience here as to which med schools she should target. She will certainly apply to UW-Madison which has a mean MCAT of 31 for the accepted candidates and 20% of Wisconsinites who apply are accepted as compared to 1.3 % of candidates from out of state.

2) She was accepted as an undergraduate at Duke and Johns Hopkins but did not get a scholarship from either. She therefore preferred to attend UW-Madison on a scholarship. Should she mention this on her application to these schools?

3) She will be completing her undergraduate education in Dec and will have free time for the next 6-7 months. Any suggestions on what she can possibly do during this time? Currently she is considering working in the research lab at UW-Madison or volunteering at an Indian reservation.
My thoughts...

1. In-state medical school tuition is a bargain and any other program better be absolutely amazing to consider paying more to attend. I would still go ahead and look at every medical school she is interested in to see if there is that place for her. My observation is that the prestige of a medical school does make a difference with regard to the caliber of residencies available for her to compete for in the future. Its not a huge difference, but it definitely exists. Personally, I don't think its worth spending 2+ times the tuition, but something to consider if she can secure a scholarship at a private school.

I have heard that Yale medical school uses a non-traditional method of teaching their students, everything is pass-fail for the first two years (students aren't ranked against one another) and some students get concerned about their ability to prepare for/score highly on their national boards (USMLE). Questions I would ask any medical school is the style of the curriculum (e.g. organ/systems based vs block scheduling), how exams are graded (is it based on a curve?) and what the average USMLE Step 1 score is. The national average for all exam takers is usually 222. A solid US medical school should have their students average at least 230 and above. An excellent one will average 235-240 and above. USMLE Step I score is akin to MCAT, and similarly important when it comes to matching at a competitive residency.

2. I don't think mentioning her acceptance to Duke/Johns Hopkins would make that much of a difference. I'd argue that it might make her come across as elitist, but thats just me. Be careful how she words this into her personal statement if she does.

3. I think research would be fine, so long as it isn't too stressful. Once she's secured an acceptance letter, then in the months prior to starting medical school I recommend she do something fun and relaxing. Maybe travel. Medical school is extremely taxing, especially the first year. Whatever she does, I do NOT recommend she try to study in advance, since there is little she will be able to do prior to medical school which will adequately prepare her for the rigors of MS1 year. It will only stress her out.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

bottomfisher wrote:
But I would strongly recommend a state medical school over private if she is accepted.
Bottom fisher, Could you explain the reason behind this. I understand the financial implication, but is there more to it. Thx
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ossipago »

As I understand it (almost-doctor here - not an expert), elite private schools have another advantage: More and better access to high-profile research. Publications of some sort are pretty much required for competitive residencies such as dermatology or radiology.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by StormShadow »

ossipago wrote:As I understand it (almost-doctor here - not an expert), elite private schools have another advantage: More and better access to high-profile research. Publications of some sort are pretty much required for competitive residencies such as dermatology or radiology.
Research is helpful, but like applying to medical school... grades, recommendation letters and board scores are the most important factors for matching any competitive specialty.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ossipago »

StormShadow wrote:
ossipago wrote:As I understand it (almost-doctor here - not an expert), elite private schools have another advantage: More and better access to high-profile research. Publications of some sort are pretty much required for competitive residencies such as dermatology or radiology.
Research is helpful, but like applying to medical school... grades, recommendation letters and board scores are the most important factors for matching any competitive specialty.
Yes, but these applicants are self-selecting. Most will have good grades and board scores. Has a bad recommendation letter ever been written? When all of those are equal, it's soft factors that become determining - research, volunteering, interviewing skill, etc. Good research opportunities can also lead to better (e.g. more high-profile) recommenders.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

protagonist wrote: I hope you don't take offense here, and I'm probably sticking my neck out, but it sounds like you are trying to overly micro-manage a very intelligent young adult's life. These are decisions she is perfectly capable of making on her own, based on her own educational and personal needs and desires. Whether she works in a research lab or volunteers on a reservation is her business...both would probably be great experiences. And which med school should she attend? Unless you are paying and the issue is money for you (in which case, of course, your involvement in the decision is important based on what you are willing or able to pay) , she should be able to figure that out for herself. As a doc (previously on academic admission committee) and a dad, my suggestion is "back off" and let her grow up. She probably has already.

The one question I may be able to help you with is the scholarship one. If it was an academic scholarship based on merit, mention the scholarship as an academic achievement but not the schools she turned down (which, if mentioned, may send a message to the admissions committee that she will turn THEM down as well if she gets a better financial offer). If it was financial aid, don't mention it.
Protagonist,
I appreciate you sticking your neck out. Most people refuse to do it. That's the benefit of an anonymous forum :D
No offence taken. I promise you she will be making the 'final' decision. As I said above I will pay 190K. If she needs more she borrows it. However she and her younger brother very carefully read all the responses on this board when I had posted questions on this board at the time of their undergrad admission. As you can see above there has been a lot of good advice and for and against views for many things. I am simply trying to get her to read all the above views and then make her own decision. She does ask me for an opinion. Does not mean that she always follows it.
When she graduated from high school both parents suggested that she consider med school down the road and at least keep that option open. However she got admitted to the UW engineering school. I believe that rebelling against parents advice had a role to play. About 18 mo later she realized that the top half of her Biomed engineering class was all preparing to go to med school and after speaking with some other college mates 'she' made the decision to go to med school. She then changed her major to Biology.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ram »

Sanbalto wrote:
Lastly, please have your daughter talk to some female doctors. Preferably ones with families and with different specialities (a primary care doc, surgeon, etc.). I think this is the best thing you can do for her. The field of medicine is wonderful and I could not imagine doing anything else. But it is a long journey full of sacrifices. These sacrifices can particularly affect women when it comes to starting families. I know plenty of female colleagues who are able to balance theses things, but have also met colleagues (both male and female) who weren't willing to make the sacrifice and dropped out or continued down an unhappy road.
Her mom is a physician and she knows many other female physicians and the associated challenges.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by StormShadow »

ossipago wrote:
StormShadow wrote:
ossipago wrote:As I understand it (almost-doctor here - not an expert), elite private schools have another advantage: More and better access to high-profile research. Publications of some sort are pretty much required for competitive residencies such as dermatology or radiology.
Research is helpful, but like applying to medical school... grades, recommendation letters and board scores are the most important factors for matching any competitive specialty.
Yes, but these applicants are self-selecting. Most will have good grades and board scores. Has a bad recommendation letter ever been written? When all of those are equal, it's soft factors that become determining - research, volunteering, interviewing skill, etc. Good research opportunities can also lead to better (e.g. more high-profile) recommenders.
1. Medical schools rank their students. Finishing AOA (akin to a medical school dean's list) means you finished in the top 1/6th of all US medical students and that is no small feat considering the competition at the medical school level.
2. What is written into a recommendation letter isn't nearly as important as who is writing the letter. If a program director (the ones that run a residency program and ultimately have the final say on which students will be candidates for their residency spots) knows the letter writer personally, that definitely carries more weight. In fact, it will likely be a topic of conversation during the residency interview at that place.
3. USMLE score is huge. And no, most medical students will not necessarily have "good board scores". Bottom line, most medical students will score average and getting a strong score puts you in a very select group of residency applicants.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by protagonist »

ram wrote: When she graduated from high school both parents suggested that she consider med school down the road and at least keep that option open. However she got admitted to the UW engineering school. I believe that rebelling against parents advice had a role to play. About 18 mo later she realized that the top half of her Biomed engineering class was all preparing to go to med school and after speaking with some other college mates 'she' made the decision to go to med school. She then changed her major to Biology.
Hi, ram.

I don't know your daughter,but it probably wasn't rebellion. Engineering is a pretty responsible field, not something people often do to rebel. She sounds pretty together....her career plans probably just evolved. My parents would have loved for me to go to med school too (it is a common parent thing I suppose). I chose a completely different major...worked after college...screwed around awhile...went to grad school....never really gave medicine a thought until when in grad school many years later I took a course in the med school and got really turned on, so applied. It had nothing to do with my folks, though I do think it made them happy. It is very possibly the same with your daughter.

If she is confused about these issues and interested in our advice, why doesn't she post herself?

Anyway, she sounds like a great kid. I am sure whatever she chooses it will work out for the best. Good luck.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by protagonist »

StormShadow wrote:
1. In-state medical school tuition is a bargain and any other program better be absolutely amazing to consider paying more to attend. I would still go ahead and look at every medical school she is interested in to see if there is that place for her. My observation is that the prestige of a medical school does make a difference with regard to the caliber of residencies available for her to compete for in the future. Its not a huge difference, but it definitely exists. Personally, I don't think its worth spending 2+ times the tuition, but something to consider if she can secure a scholarship at a private school.
I agree with this. A highly competitive med school may give her a little edge, but I don't think the possible competitive advantage of a first-tier private medical school justifies the additional expense over a state school. In the long run it will be little more than bragging rights. Sometimes the most academic programs rely more heavily on academics and hierarchies, whereas a good state school may offer a student more hands-on clinical experience. But basically, she will get out of med school what she puts into it. A good student will get into a good residency program. The one exception might be for the minority that does not plan on entering clinical practice or doing a residency...a Harvard degree might give her a significant competitive edge if she was to enter industry or research right after med school, I don't know.

StormShadow wrote:2. I don't think mentioning her acceptance to Duke/Johns Hopkins would make that much of a difference. I'd argue that it might make her come across as elitist, but thats just me. Be careful how she words this into her personal statement if she does.
Good point. Her record will probably speak for itself. Nobody on admissions likes a smart-ass.

StormShadow wrote:3. Once she's secured an acceptance letter, then in the months prior to starting medical school I recommend she do something fun and relaxing. Maybe travel.
Also a good point. If she is accepted, this may be her last fling for a long time coming. Great time to travel, explore a hobby, have an adventure. She has worked very hard. She deserves it.
Last edited by protagonist on Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by obgraham »

Predictably, we have a lot of physicians on this board, and I've read with interest their comments after my early one.

I'm sticking with my point: it completely depends on what the young lady thinks she might be interested in as a medical career. Academic and research is a completely different animal from private practice. The cachet attached to certain medical centers does apply in the academic world, but it has little relevance in the world of clinical practice in the other 85% of medicine. Scores, ranks, and recommendations are not what medicine is about.

What is much more important in the formation of a doctor is the development of critical thinking, flexible treatment planning, and above all, ability to identify, empathize with and communicate with the needs of the patient. Everyone knows that some doctors have learned that, and many never do. These skills are not linked to the prestige of the teaching institution.

If I were to advise someone now who was bright enough that it appeared they would be able to choose from all sorts of medical schools, I'd recommend speaking to some graduates about just those issues -- and perhaps ask their thought about the schools they didn't attend. A picture might evolve.
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by bottomfisher »

Bottom fisher, Could you explain the reason behind this. I understand the financial implication, but is there more to it. Thx
My reply did primarily revolve around the financial implications of attending medical school. I see later in the thread that you are prepared to contribute $190k. This makes your daughter's situation a bit different than mine. I had to borrow most of the money to pay for medical school. I went to a state school and I still managed to build up a significant student loan balance. Your contribution changes my perspective on your daughter's ultimate decision somewhat - she may have less debt burden than myself with your help. But I still feel that for most medical students, a state medical school is a better deal.

There are some medical students who are driven and only want to perform research, teach, or obtain the most competitive residency at the elite medical institutions. These students would benefit from going to one of the elite medical schools IMHO. Another consideration is that it is harder to excel at the elite medical schools because you are surrounded by equally talented medical students. Hence more challenging to stand out and obtain a higher ranking in your class. This may then make obtaining a competitive residency more difficult - 'its a double edge sword.'

Other considerations that were important to me, but not necessarily others - I knew I wanted to remain home for residency and to live following residency. Going to medical school at home allowed me to interact closely with the residents and staff in the home state residency program I attended while I was still in medical school. They got to know me well and I had no problem getting into my residency. And I had a better understanding of the residency program as opposed to going to a program elsewhere that I only got to know for 1 day during interviews. And going through medical school and residency at home also allowed me to form ties with other doctors and healthcare professionals in the community which made my transition into my clinical practice very comfortable. I'm actually working in the clinic I rotated through in medical school and decided then that this would be my ideal workplace. I recognize these are much more personal decisions and some students/residents/staff really look forward to moving to a new city/state for medical school, residency, and/or practice to experience the other parts of our country. Hope that helps
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by StormShadow »

StormShadow wrote:
ossipago wrote:
StormShadow wrote:
ossipago wrote:As I understand it (almost-doctor here - not an expert), elite private schools have another advantage: More and better access to high-profile research. Publications of some sort are pretty much required for competitive residencies such as dermatology or radiology.
Research is helpful, but like applying to medical school... grades, recommendation letters and board scores are the most important factors for matching any competitive specialty.
Yes, but these applicants are self-selecting. Most will have good grades and board scores. Has a bad recommendation letter ever been written? When all of those are equal, it's soft factors that become determining - research, volunteering, interviewing skill, etc. Good research opportunities can also lead to better (e.g. more high-profile) recommenders.
1. Medical schools rank their students. Finishing AOA (akin to a medical school dean's list) means you finished in the top 1/6th of all US medical students and that is no small feat considering the competition at the medical school level.
2. What is written into a recommendation letter isn't nearly as important as who is writing the letter. If a program director (the ones that run a residency program and ultimately have the final say on which students will be candidates for their residency spots) knows the letter writer personally, that definitely carries more weight. In fact, it will likely be a topic of conversation during the residency interview at that place.
3. USMLE score is huge. And no, most medical students will not necessarily have "good board scores". Bottom line, most medical students will score average and getting a strong score puts you in a very select group of residency applicants.
Sorry, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I again want to emphasize how important having the right numbers are with regards to having a successful residency match.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresults ... ty2012.pdf

This is a questionnaire filled by all US residency program directors for 2012. It includes information asking what matters most to them when considering candidates for their program. The top 4 most cited factors were: USMLE Step 1 score, rec letters, personal statement and grades. Research was ranked 26th. I suspect this is because the majority of medical students simply don't have any publications under their belts by the time they've applied for residency.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/chartingoutcomes2011.pdf

Here are the statistics regarding the 2011 residency match. The charting outcomes report comes out every other year (2013 match day is March 15th).
lightheir
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by lightheir »

That .pdf, while useful, must be taken in the appropriate context.

While it lists Step1 scores as the most important for selecting applicants to interview, you have to crucially understand it as such. It is only for selecting applicants to interview.

They use the Step1 scores to weed out likely low-performers, and yes, this means if you're in the bottom 5% of the USMLE1 scores, you're going to have an uphill battle to climb.

However, having met many people from many specialties from most competitive at the most competitive places to everywhere in the middle, I can assure the budding applicant that a high Step1 score is meaningless in terms of getting a leg up on the competition. Once you get past that initial 'make the computer cut', you still have to survive the subjective selections to interview, and then the interview itself, and the Step1 score is almost never discussed in committees in terms of making the final selections (unless it's very low, at which point they will have to defend their decision.)

Assuming you're not a bottom performer, USMLE scores are amongst the least crucial of the selection process. There is not a single program director or selection committee in the country that will select an applicant predominantly on the strength of a particularly outstanding USMLE score. Not one. (Some foreign born and trained applicants actually crush the boards, either from prior training or hands-on experience, so the US students aren't necessarily the highest scorers.)


(I also found it very intersting in that .pdf that "Applicant was flagged for a match violation" was ranked with the same weight as honors clerkships. I would have thought that match violations would have been a big red flag warning against the ethics of a reapplicant, but it is possible that there are extenuating circumstances that make such a violation less egregious.)
ossipago
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ossipago »

I'm not completely speaking as an amateur - my job requires me to know a fair bit about health and education policy. The match rates for individual derm and rad programs are on the order of 1-2%. So these programs will be interviewing more people with top grades and board scores than they have slots to fill. This is where soft factors (research, pedigree, interviewing skills, volunteer experience, etc.) really starts to matter. In other words, sure, grades/tests are necessary - but they aren't sufficient.
travellight
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Location: San Diego

Re: Which Med school?

Post by travellight »

It is interesting that "lifestyle" specialties have become the most exclusive and challenging to get into. They are not the most difficult to do, (derm and rad onc).
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protagonist
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by protagonist »

StormShadow wrote:[
Sorry, I hate to beat a dead horse, but I again want to emphasize how important having the right numbers are with regards to having a successful residency match.

http://www.nrmp.org/data/programresults ... ty2012.pdf

This is a questionnaire filled by all US residency program directors for 2012. It includes information asking what matters most to them when considering candidates for their program. The top 4 most cited factors were: USMLE Step 1 score, rec letters, personal statement and grades.
That is probably true, and is a sad commentary, since I recall reading a study years ago that showed that there was little to no correlation between board scores and job performance, and I am sure that is especially true when using the Step 1 score which only focuses on basic sciences, not at all on clinical acumen. A uniform, national application policy certainly benefits the residency programs, but I am not so sure that it does justice to the applicants or ultimately to the field of medicine.

I was the director of an academic medical fellowship program in a very competitive field for many years, and I played a major role in choosing our fellows. CV, test scores, etc was a "foot in the door". If one made it to the interview process (eg the "finalists") , "soft factors" took precedence over everything else. Of those "soft factors", interpersonal skills was huge. When you and your colleagues have to choose somebody with whom you and your patients will be dealing intimately and intensely for years, this is ultimately way more critical than how somebody performed re: multiple choice questions about microbiology. And it is true that a huge portion of the application pool (a majority) looks essentially the same on paper. I would imagine that might be a little different at the residency than at the fellowship level, particularly in less competitive fields.
travellight
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Location: San Diego

Re: Which Med school?

Post by travellight »

I would agree as well. When I had to hire for a very competitive job, the top resumes and name school grads would make it to the finalists and get an interview. Once there though, "soft" factors ruled. One top guy was Harvard etc. but upon deep research, I found out that he was not a team player and let others pick up the work. Dead end! In the final elimination, it is someone on totally nonacademic terms who gets picked; I felt it was almost as important as marriage because you have to live with them for decades in the work setting.
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ekphora
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Re: Which Med school?

Post by ekphora »

ram wrote: Thanks for an alternate perspective. Go for the cheapest one is the traditional advise on this board and almost always works well. But this situation might be one where I would at least consider deviating from standard practice. She has had an opportunity to meet and talk with Dr Farmer and was very much influenced by his work.
For sure. I believe in shopping for value when it comes to schools. Even though I chose to leave medicine after getting my MD for a business career, having the school name and its alumni network has helped me greatly in my field. As most of my close friends from school opted for academic or public health careers, they have likewise benefited from association with the school. Of course it's not predictive of future success or even capability, but it helps. I would encourage your daughter to apply broadly (along the lines of arsenal7's suggestion), collect her acceptances and then make her make decision since you are not financially constrained. I sat on admissions at HMS for three years and have seen profiles like hers gain admission, but there are lots of "intangibles" in the admissions process that make it far less predictable than the admission process at public schools. Feel free to PM if you want to chat in more depth.

-ek
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