Divorce question for the Bogleheads

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reggiesimpson
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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by reggiesimpson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:03 am

2stepsbehind wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: Do not sit on the prenup. While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife.
How many of these involve a cheating husband?
The last time i looked its the woman who controls sex not the man. Half of married men cheat on their wives and half the married women cheat on their husbands. I suspect they are cheating with each other. Now if they could somehow figure out how to have a better sex life together as husband and wife..............nah never happen, right?

FillorKill
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:07 am

Histrionics aside
That's a pretty powerful noun to describe the calm, civil conversation taking place here, IMHO.

Definition of HISTRIONICS

1: theatrical performances
2: deliberate display of emotion for effect
encouraging OP to spend close to if not more than half of his savings ($1200-2000 for attorneys on each side) to protect against the mere possibility of losing half of his savings
It isn't that simple. There are many eventualities you can protect yourself with via prenup.

Also this seems to [as usual] have become a broader discussion, not just advice for one specific instance despite the thread begining that way.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:09 am

reggiesimpson wrote:
2stepsbehind wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: Do not sit on the prenup. While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife.
How many of these involve a cheating husband?
The last time i looked its the woman who controls sex not the man. Half of married men cheat on their wives and half the married women cheat on their husbands. I suspect they are cheating with each other. Now if they could somehow figure out how to have a better sex life together as husband and wife..............nah never happen, right?
That's easy. Include in the prenup a Microsoft Project-based sex schedule for the next fifty years with the critical path, milestones and dependencies.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

2stepsbehind
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by 2stepsbehind » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:19 am

BBL wrote:
Histrionics aside
That's a pretty powerful noun to describe the calm, civil conversation taking place here, IMHO.

Definition of HISTRIONICS

1: theatrical performances
2: deliberate display of emotion for effect
encouraging OP to spend close to if not more than half of his savings ($1200-2000 for attorneys on each side) to protect against the mere possibility of losing half of his savings
It isn't that simple. There are many eventualities you can protect yourself with via prenup.

Also this seems to [as usual] have become a broader discussion, not just advice for one specific instance despite the thread begining that way.
I know what the word means and I used it because some of the advice in the thread e.g.:
"While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife. In other words you have no say in the matter. If you think that threat doesnt exist in the remaining marriages just take a look around. The prenup is designed to balance out the power between the spouses."

"Without a solid prenup the husband doesnt have a leg to stand when the inevitable divorce and/or threats of divorce start warbling throughout the house. The marriage rate is at the lowest in U.S. history for a reason. Because divorce has destroyed so many lives. A solid prenup is one step to ensure the future welfare of the family unit."

is deliberately provocative.

And I specifically referenced the OP--the OP has no business getting a prenup to protect his savings. He has not discussed any other issues that might suggest a prenup would be useful/necessary.

reggiesimpson
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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by reggiesimpson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:19 am

VictoriaF wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote:
2stepsbehind wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: Do not sit on the prenup. While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife.
How many of these involve a cheating husband?
The last time i looked its the woman who controls sex not the man. Half of married men cheat on their wives and half the married women cheat on their husbands. I suspect they are cheating with each other. Now if they could somehow figure out how to have a better sex life together as husband and wife..............nah never happen, right?
That's easy. Include in the prenup a Microsoft Project-based sex schedule for the next fifty years with the critical path, milestones and dependencies.

Victoria
An interesting book came out about a year ago. It was about a middle aged married couple who decided to have sexual intercourse every day for one year (true story). About 6 months into this "experiment" the social psychologists came a knocking to study the results of this "phenomenon". The shocking result? The couple got along better than ever. Why? Because all the little quibbles and squabbles and slights that take place during the day between them was washed away because of the regular sex! They were happier. I dont believe they kept up that demanding schedule but the results were there. Common sense prevailed !!
Note: the social psychologists moved on to another pressing issue............does water actually flow downhill?

sscritic
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by sscritic » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:22 am

reggiesimpson wrote: she will get the children in a divorce
That was true in the 1950s (in most cases), but I don't think that is true today. I only know what I read in the popular press; do you have any official statistics? Since family law is state law for the most part ( ERISA on QDROs* for one being an exception), it probably depends on the state you live in.
While the division of marital property generally is governed by state domestic relations law, any assignments of pension interests must also comply with Federal law, namely the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (the Code).
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/qd ... NHbXaW-q-Q

reggiesimpson
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by reggiesimpson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:27 am

sscritic wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: she will get the children in a divorce
That was true in the 1950s (in most cases), but I don't think that is true today. I only know what I read in the popular press; do you have any official statistics? Since family law is state law for the most part ( ERISA on QDROs* for one being an exception), it probably depends on the state you live in.
While the division of marital property generally is governed by state domestic relations law, any assignments of pension interests must also comply with Federal law, namely the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974 (ERISA) and the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 (the Code).
http://www.dol.gov/ebsa/publications/qd ... NHbXaW-q-Q
It was from readings over the past year. 95% of the time the wife gets the kids. Didnt go digging deeper as i have only met one guy in my life who got custody. She abandoned them. I agree its a state by state stat.

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VictoriaF
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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:27 am

reggiesimpson wrote: An interesting book came out about a year ago. It was about a middle aged married couple who decided to have sexual intercourse every day for one year (true story). About 6 months into this "experiment" the social psychologists came a knocking to study the results of this "phenomenon". The shocking result? The couple got along better than ever. Why? Because all the little quibbles and squabbles and slights that take place during the day between them was washed away because of the regular sex! They were happier. I dont believe they kept up that demanding schedule but the results were there. Common sense prevailed !!
Note: the social psychologists moved on to another pressing issue............does water actually flow downhill?
The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel has inkling of this.

Victoria
WINNER of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)

reggiesimpson
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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by reggiesimpson » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:31 am

VictoriaF wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: An interesting book came out about a year ago. It was about a middle aged married couple who decided to have sexual intercourse every day for one year (true story). About 6 months into this "experiment" the social psychologists came a knocking to study the results of this "phenomenon". The shocking result? The couple got along better than ever. Why? Because all the little quibbles and squabbles and slights that take place during the day between them was washed away because of the regular sex! They were happier. I dont believe they kept up that demanding schedule but the results were there. Common sense prevailed !!
Note: the social psychologists moved on to another pressing issue............does water actually flow downhill?
The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel has inkling of this.

Victoria
Agreed. Another good "reason" to go to India.
I believe this was another posts subject but maybe this OP will consider India as a honeymoon destination and possibly get off on the right "footing" so to speak?

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Kosmo
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Kosmo » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:35 am

BBL wrote:One sided conversations get boring in a hurry. :happy
So then what's with all this one sided talk about low cost, index based investment strategies?

Related to the topic:
My opinion is that having a prenup is basically saying to your future spouse "When it comes down to choosing either you or my money, I'm taking the money." That's not a healthy way to start a marriage. It's also an act of good faith in the relationship to share what you have now and in the future to work towards common goals. The reason that there is such a high divorce rate is because we (as a society) don't do that. Not the other way around.

FillorKill
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:58 am

I know what the word means and I used it because some of the advice in the thread e.g.:
"While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife. In other words you have no say in the matter. If you think that threat doesnt exist in the remaining marriages just take a look around. The prenup is designed to balance out the power between the spouses."

"Without a solid prenup the husband doesnt have a leg to stand when the inevitable divorce and/or threats of divorce start warbling throughout the house. The marriage rate is at the lowest in U.S. history for a reason. Because divorce has destroyed so many lives. A solid prenup is one step to ensure the future welfare of the family unit."

is deliberately provocative.

And I specifically referenced the OP--the OP has no business getting a prenup to protect his savings. He has not discussed any other issues that might suggest a prenup would be useful/necessary.
I see where you're coming from. Fair enough.

Why you quoted something rather innocuous that I posted in which to make your feelings know does perplex:
BBL wrote:
Rodc wrote:
Come on guys, all this talk of a prenup to "protect" $7,500? Honestly?


That blade cuts both ways - who would balk at signing an agreement with so little apparent value?



^ what does that, have to do with this:
"While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife. In other words you have no say in the matter. If you think that threat doesnt exist in the remaining marriages just take a look around. The prenup is designed to balance out the power between the spouses."

"Without a solid prenup the husband doesnt have a leg to stand when the inevitable divorce and/or threats of divorce start warbling throughout the house. The marriage rate is at the lowest in U.S. history for a reason. Because divorce has destroyed so many lives. A solid prenup is one step to ensure the future welfare of the family unit."

is deliberately provocative.
??? Misquote, perhaps?

FillorKill
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:02 am

Kosmo wrote:
BBL wrote:One sided conversations get boring in a hurry. :happy
So then what's with all this one sided talk about low cost, index based investment strategies?
Confirmation bias makes us feel smart and sophisticated? :beer

2stepsbehind
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by 2stepsbehind » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:15 am

BBL wrote: ??? Misquote, perhaps?
More like lazing quoting. :D Histrionics was referencing some of the general commentary in this thread (which I might add has become even more inflammatory from a certain poster). And I quoted you with regard to your sentiment that it cuts both ways which seemed to suggest that Rodc's comment that a prenup was unnecessary to protect $7500 was wrong. OP has not identified any issues that would make going through the expense of a formal prenup necessary. Of course OP and his fiance should discuss all of these issues and, if they like, do an informal prenup of sorts, but lets not let the fact that we're talking about $7500 escape us.

FillorKill
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:22 am

More like lazing quoting.
I do my fair share of that.
I quoted you with regard to your sentiment that it cuts both ways which seemed to suggest that Rodc's comment that a prenup was unnecessary to protect $7500 was wrong.
That's funny - I meant that point could be argued effectively from either side. That's all I was [poorly] attempting to point-out.
but lets not let the fact that we're talking about $7500 escape us.
Uh-oh we're in the weeds again? Seems hard to avoid...

:sharebeer

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HueyLD
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by HueyLD » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:26 am

The OP hasn't come back for some reason. I guess all the negative comments scared him off and he decided to remain single for the rest of his life.

All the drama has ended. :oops:

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FordBiggs » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:33 am

VictoriaF wrote:
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:Can't wait for the next publication to come out - "The Bogleheads Guide to a Financially Successful Marriage" - as told by forum members with combined experience totaling thousands of years.
There is a bit more to the marriage. Don't you think?

Victoria
I think I can actually see myself reading this book :o I'm far from being married or even thinking about marriage (Age: 23) but it's entertaining and educational reading the different opinions from different experiences of people here.

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HomerJ
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by HomerJ » Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:36 am

Kosmo wrote:My opinion is that having a prenup is basically saying to your future spouse "When it comes down to choosing either you or my money, I'm taking the money."
How do you figure? Getting married means "I choose you AND the money"... Having a prenup says "If I don't get you, at least I keep the money", not "I choose money over you"...
It's also an act of good faith in the relationship to share what you have now and in the future to work towards common goals. The reason that there is such a high divorce rate is because we (as a society) don't do that. Not the other way around.
I agree with that.

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JupiterJones
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by JupiterJones » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:03 pm

Here's the way I see prenups:

When you get married, you are already agreeing to a certain set of procedures and rules that would govern a divorce if it were to happen. There are existing laws, and not having a prenup basically says that you both agree to those laws by default.

A prenup merely sets forth different procedures and rules. It's a non-acceptance of the default choice.

But either way, the contingency of a divorce is always allowed for. No one gets married without that point being settled. There's nothing inherently cynical about choosing to settle the point differently.


JJ
Stay on target...

sscritic
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by sscritic » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:20 pm

HomerJ wrote: Getting married means "I choose you AND the money"... Having a prenup says "If I don't get you, at least I keep the money", not "I choose money over you"...
But there are two sides to a prenup. "If I don't get you, at least I keep the money" really means, "and you don't." Why shouldn't the other side keep the money as well? They also are getting married and saying "I choose you and the money" and also want to keep the money after the divorce.

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Random Musings
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Random Musings » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:24 pm

Novine wrote:As HomerJ noted, the 50 percent claim is mostly a myth. Unless you're young and relatively uneducated, the divorce rate is nowhere near 50 percent.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 24,00.html
The information provided makes common sense. Although there are no guarantees, money problems contributes to the potential of divorce, and most likely so does a younger age as maturity issues and not fully sowing your wild oats could contribute as well (some people probably never get over that one).

RM
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by midareff » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:25 pm

A prenup is a form of assurance that the marriage is for love, not for future money rights. Having said that IMHO a first marriage which should/could be expected to bring children into the world seems inappropriate for a prenup unless the distribution of funds between the parties is extremely skewed. ... and at that it would be expected that child support would be a great equalizer.

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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by RenoJay » Wed Dec 19, 2012 12:36 pm

zebrafish wrote:Since you both earn relatively the same salary and have relatively the same assets (one is not a millionaire and the other a pauper) I would not bother with a prenup. In your scenario, if you can't blend your lives together in every way, I wouldn't get married yet.
I agree with this. In my case, I was a millionaire and my soon-to-be wife was an indebted grad student, so I got a prenup, but had we been on roughly equal financial footing I would have let love rule the day and would have foregone the formality, as well as the emotional bump, caused by a prenup.

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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by Call_Me_Op » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:51 pm

RenoJay wrote:
zebrafish wrote:Since you both earn relatively the same salary and have relatively the same assets (one is not a millionaire and the other a pauper) I would not bother with a prenup. In your scenario, if you can't blend your lives together in every way, I wouldn't get married yet.
I agree with this. In my case, I was a millionaire and my soon-to-be wife was an indebted grad student, so I got a prenup, but had we been on roughly equal financial footing I would have let love rule the day and would have foregone the formality, as well as the emotional bump, caused by a prenup.
Reno,

I would assume that in a case such as yours a judge would require that the pre-nup provide something deemed "reasonable" for your wife in the event of divorce. Is this true?
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:43 pm

BBL wrote:
Rodc wrote:Come on guys, all this talk of a prenup to "protect" $7,500? Honestly?
That blade cuts both ways - who would balk at signing an agreement with so little apparent value?
because you are putting a whole lot more than a few dollars on the line when you get married.
Right. If my two greatest satisfactions in life are my big portfolio and the person I love, why risk both in the same endeavor?

Losing one is bad enough - again, why risk both?

This is just risk management applied to life decisions. If I get taken to the cleaners and heart broken when I'm 58, what then?

That's a little late in the game to start over [at least financially].
You consider $15K, only half of which is at risk as "my big portfolio"?
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:45 pm

truenorth418 wrote:
Rodc wrote:Come on guys, all this talk of a prenup to "protect" $7,500? Honestly?

Me thinks there is something like fear of marriage in general at work here for many posters and fear of this marriage for the OP, because this is not rational.

If you can't put a few thousand dollars at risk, you probably should not be getting married, because you are putting a whole lot more than a few dollars on the line when you get married.

Seriously, figure out your real issues, because protecting your savings is not the real issue, it is only how the issue is leaking out.

Generally pre-nups are used to address income and assets obtained DURING the marriage. The OP seems like a prudent, thoughtful guy who could accumulate substantial assets in the future. It is not just about the money he has now.
Maybe it depends on the state, but as far as I can tell, get a divorce some years and a couple of kids later, and it is not going to matter.

At any rate, that is not the stated issue the OP wants to address or asked about. He asked about protecting the assets he brings into the marriage.

Maybe the problem is people are addressing their personal issues not the issue of the OP.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:06 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote:
2stepsbehind wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote: Do not sit on the prenup. While half the marriages end in divorce 75% of those divorces are brought by the wife.
How many of these involve a cheating husband?
The last time i looked its the woman who controls sex not the man. Half of married men cheat on their wives and half the married women cheat on their husbands. I suspect they are cheating with each other. Now if they could somehow figure out how to have a better sex life together as husband and wife..............nah never happen, right?
That's easy. Include in the prenup a Microsoft Project-based sex schedule for the next fifty years with the critical path, milestones and dependencies.

Victoria
Don't forget the critical design review.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:11 pm

HueyLD wrote:The OP hasn't come back for some reason. I guess all the negative comments scared him off and he decided to remain single for the rest of his life.

All the drama has ended. :oops:
OP was likely a troll laughing at what he (or she) started. :)
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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UpstateNY86
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by UpstateNY86 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:20 pm

Hey everybody--
I am def. reading every response in detail. Just had to respond cause someone said I was trolling :).
1) Those are my assets as of now.....But, I have a family member who gives me about 750 a month to strictly invest in...My job growth isnt good...I had a major setback when i was younger that pretty much crushed my future(something I WILL regret the rest of my life),,,Just a little FYIY... :sharebeer :sharebeer

To also understand how the courts could give all this money away is mind boggling and makes me sick to know that the wife has that much leverage over you....My fiance is also not the brighest buld and doesnt even really understand the concept of money or anything(which is why we fight),..
thanks!

sscritic
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by sscritic » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:31 pm

UpstateNY86 wrote:Hey everybody--
I am def. reading every response in detail. Just had to respond cause someone said I was trolling :).
1) Those are my assets as of now.....But, I have a family member who gives me about 750 a month to strictly invest in...My job growth isnt good...I had a major setback when i was younger that pretty much crushed my future(something I WILL regret the rest of my life),,,Just a little FYIY...

To also understand how the courts could give all this money away is mind boggling and makes me sick to know that the wife has that much leverage over you....My fiance is also not the brighest buld and doesnt even really understand the concept of money or anything(which is why we fight),..
thanks!
Sorry, but if you think half of $15,000 or $7,500 is "all this money" then you are the one who may not really understand the concept of money. I think you aren't ready to get married. A fiancee who isn't the brightest bulb with whom you fight is your idea of the perfect mate? That doesn't read right.

Are you sure you aren't a troll?

sscritic
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by sscritic » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:36 pm

Here's another thought. Buy her a $15,000 engagement ring; that way you both will have nothing when you start out. No, that's not right, she will have the ring and you will have nothing. I wonder if the judge at your divorce will make her cut it in two and give you half? No, because you gave it to her before marriage, it will be her separate property.

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Post by Curlyq » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:48 pm

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Last edited by Curlyq on Thu Oct 18, 2018 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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UpstateNY86
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by UpstateNY86 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:54 pm

Right-- A tough situation for me...Thanks for all the serious advice though from everybody really appreciate it.

Also, a poster above commented how 15k wasnt a lot of money etc...I understand a lot people here are extremely wealthy , and congrats to those that are. (thats where i want to be).
To say 15k isnt a lot of $$ shows you really don't comprehend with the lower middle class... And to toss in 750 a month in investments etc....What do I need 5 million?

DSInvestor
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by DSInvestor » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:04 pm

UpstateNY86 wrote:Also, a poster above commented how 15k wasnt a lot of money etc...I understand a lot people here are extremely wealthy , and congrats to those that are. (thats where i want to be).
To say 15k isnt a lot of $$ shows you really don't comprehend with the lower middle class... And to toss in 750 a month in investments etc....What do I need 5 million?
15K isn't a lot of money in a lifetime of investing. You're investing at least 750/month ($9000/yr). If this continues for 40 years, that's 360K in contributions and then there's the growth on that.

BTW, 15K invested in stocks can fall to 7K in a flash. I noticed that you posted in another thread that you own BAC. Have you seen a price chart for BAC over the past decade? It was trading in the 50s in 2007 and is now trading at 11.07. In 2009 it was as trading under $3/share.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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UpstateNY86
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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by UpstateNY86 » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:08 pm

I know that first hand how stocks can crash..my dad became worth over one million from the CSCOs and YHOOs of the world...Now, doesnt have much. Thats why I come here to learn how to properly invest, protect myself, and all that good stuff. This forum is the real deal for financial people. I LOVE IT! :sharebeer

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Calm Man » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:08 pm

HomerJ wrote:
Calm Man wrote:Colleagues:
I think those that are protesting that there are too few assets for the original poster to protect now are, of course, right as there are few. However, many or most marriages start with little assets. The objectives of the prenup are many. The main one as I see it is to avoid expensive and emotionally costly litigation should a divorce occur. Even failed marriages generally last a reasonable period of time and sometimes 20 or even 30 years. A good prenup will contain clauses about asset division, children should they come and how to support them, etc. I got divorced after about 10 years of marriage with 2 children. We had little when we started. We had a lot more when we divorced. We did not have a prenup. The lawyers made out much better than if there had been a prenup. And certainly the emotional cost of the divorce was high enough but throw in litigation and it gets a lot worse. So I would strongly recommend a prenup as a way of saying that you love each other but know that sometimes things change and you do not want to go to hating each other should a divorce occur.

One more thing. As to the comments by some that the divorce rate is low among college grads--it might be lower than 19 year olds marrying but it still is quite high.

Good luck to OP in whatever you decide.
My understanding is a prenup doesn't protect you from lawyers and dividing up the assets you both made after you got married. It can always be contested. And it only protects assets you had BEFORE the marriage. And there's no way you're going to have a viable child support agreement in a pre-nup made 10 years before the children were even born.
Homer, I can tell you as a matter of fact that a prenup can "anticipate" the future. Of course it can be challenged but if you both have lawyers and both sign off it is tougher but not impossible to overturn. You will see this among celebrities all the time.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Professor Emeritus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:16 pm

Wow what a lot of hostility is expressed. Oh well... Ok Purely financially Prenups work very well for older folks in second or subsequent marriages that depend on a long past record of developing income and assets. They do not work well for younger couples who depend on one another to develop those capabilities. I'm putting this in caps PRENUPS DISCOURAGE YOUR PARTNER FROM INVESTING IN YOUR SUCCESS. My personal experience is that 37 years ago I married a wonderful hard working brilliant young medical student. I was a law student. We had no idea who would make the most money, but we knew that we needed one another's help to build both our careers. So its always been "our "money. Our pensions, our children, our income, our spending, our house. If we got divorced after the kids were grown we would have split the pot right down the middle.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Professor Emeritus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:18 pm

And there's no way you're going to have a viable child support agreement in a pre-nup made 10 years before the children were even born.[/quote]
Homer, I can tell you as a matter of fact that a prenup can "anticipate" the future. Of course it can be challenged but if you both have lawyers and both sign off it is tougher but not impossible to overturn. You will see this among celebrities all the time.[/quote]

I can tell you as a matter of law that a Pre-nup has no effect at all on Child Support. And most states require full disclosure for validity.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by zebrafish » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:18 pm

UpstateNY86 wrote: To say 15k isnt a lot of $$ shows you really don't comprehend with the lower middle class... And to toss in 750 a month in investments etc....What do I need 5 million?
No, I don't think people are looking down their noses. It gets into cost/benefit. Going to a lawyer and getting a prenup drawn up might cost you a thousand dollars, give or take. Going through a divorce would completely crack and scramble your nest egg at its current size, so I think people are saying it simply isn't worth the time, money or effort given your situation. It also might negatively impact the relationship, depending on the personality of the significant other.

And, you asked for our opinion... :happy

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by sscritic » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:24 pm

UpstateNY86 wrote: To say 15k isnt a lot of $$ shows you really don't comprehend with the lower middle class...
I listen to Dave Ramsey. All sorts of lower middle class people pay off debts much larger than this in a year or two. If you can pay off $15k in a year, you can save $15k in a year. If you stay married for 10, you will have over $150k saved, and $15k just won't be that much (it's 10% if you like).

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:29 pm

In reference to some earlier posts, let's stay focused on answering the OP's question.
UpstateNY86 wrote:Hey guys! Just found this site about 3 days ago and am in love with it! I love all the principles involved...
Anyways, I have a marriage coming up. I don't want to sound too harsh, but I am always trying to stay proactive and plan for worse case scenarieos...
My spouse and I have about the same income level(30k a piece)...not much, we are both entry level..
I have 7 k in my taxable account, and 8k in my nontaxable account...I know it isnt much,but its a start.
I am curious as to when we get married, IF we get divorced say under like 5 years. Does she get half of the money before the marriage that was in the accounts? Or just the investments and earnings DURING marriage?
Also, i was told that gifts during a marriage are seperation of property.. When I plan to buy my house, my dad will give me 12k, and so will my mom...Is this protected also? I am in NY. Thank You!
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Professor Emeritus » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:36 pm

LadyGeek wrote:In reference to some earlier posts, let's stay focused on answering the OP's question.
UpstateNY86 wrote:Hey guys! Just found this site about 3 days ago and am in love with it! I love all the principles involved...
Anyways, I have a marriage coming up. I don't want to sound too harsh, but I am always trying to stay proactive and plan for worse case scenarieos...
My spouse and I have about the same income level(30k a piece)...not much, we are both entry level..
I have 7 k in my taxable account, and 8k in my nontaxable account...I know it isnt much,but its a start.
I am curious as to when we get married, IF we get divorced say under like 5 years. Does she get half of the money before the marriage that was in the accounts? Or just the investments and earnings DURING marriage?
Also, i was told that gifts during a marriage are seperation of property.. When I plan to buy my house, my dad will give me 12k, and so will my mom...Is this protected also? I am in NY. Thank You!
The only accurate legal answer is "no one knows" possible sources for information http://www.divorceinfo.com/nyfaqspropertydivision.htm
http://www.divorcesupport.com/divorce/N ... s-664.html

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:40 am

Rodc wrote:
You consider $15K, only half of which is at risk as "my big portfolio"?
I'm willing to bet that you know I was illustrating a point. :happy

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Re: Question for the bogleheads

Post by carolinaman » Thu Dec 20, 2012 7:15 am

zebrafish wrote:Since you both earn relatively the same salary and have relatively the same assets (one is not a millionaire and the other a pauper) I would not bother with a prenup. In your scenario, if you can't blend your lives together in every way, I wouldn't get married yet.
I agree completely. You only have modest assets at this point and any act by you to protect them, i.e. prenup or your name only accounts, will send the wrong signal to your prospective wife. I have been married 44 years and it really bothers my wife that my IRA and 401k are in my name only. I have explained that is the only option but she still does not like it. Women are more sensitive to this than you probably are aware of.

If you are going to get married, you need to be totally committed to your wife. Marriage is hard enough when you do fully commit yourself. Congratulations and best wishes.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by brianH » Thu Dec 20, 2012 8:57 am

truenorth418 wrote:You absolutely should get a pre-nup.
Just going through the process of negotiating the terms was helpful for me as I saw a side of my fiancee that I did not like and I decided not to marry her.
This is a good enough reason to spend the money even at a low current savings level. You may learn some valuable information about how your STB-spouse views the partnership, which is much better to learn now than in divorce court. I'd also like to add that your spouse's motivations at divorce aren't even the problem. If she's represented by a divorce lawyer, they have the legal obligation to do everything in their power to make the outcome for their client as positive as possible. You may trust your spouse, but do you trust the hypothetical/future lawyer she will have representing her?

For what it's worth, I didn't have a prenup, but our marriage ended without contest over assets. It could have gone FAR worse for me (owned a home and other assets), like it did for a number of slightly older men I know. I would advise everyone -- and I have to people like my sister who is likely bringing more to the table -- to consult with a divorce lawyer/estate planner to determine the downside risks. Entering in to a legal contract (marriage) blind is foolish, arrogant, or both.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:31 am

BBL wrote:
Rodc wrote:
You consider $15K, only half of which is at risk as "my big portfolio"?
I'm willing to bet that you know I was illustrating a point. :happy
I was serious. I was trying to get back to the question as asked, as opposed to making up some other imagined situation and addressing that.

The OP is trying to protect $15K. Now that is not the only issue he could consider, but that is what he asked advice about.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Thu Dec 20, 2012 10:48 am

zebrafish wrote:
UpstateNY86 wrote: To say 15k isnt a lot of $$ shows you really don't comprehend with the lower middle class... And to toss in 750 a month in investments etc....What do I need 5 million?
No, I don't think people are looking down their noses. It gets into cost/benefit. Going to a lawyer and getting a prenup drawn up might cost you a thousand dollars, give or take. Going through a divorce would completely crack and scramble your nest egg at its current size, so I think people are saying it simply isn't worth the time, money or effort given your situation. It also might negatively impact the relationship, depending on the personality of the significant other.

And, you asked for our opinion... :happy
Right. Spend $1000 to protect $7,500?

To the OP,

I have a 25 year old daughter. I believe she has rather less than $15K saved. What she has saved over the two years since graduating is VERY dear to her. I remember when $15,000 was a very large amount of money to me. So I get that. I understand you are sincere. But with more time under my belt, and a better understanding of things through life experience (words that may grate, but true nonetheless) I can assure you that in a few years of savings and a little luck you will look back and better understand where I and others are coming from.

I do agree with:
If you are going to get married, you need to be totally committed to your wife. Marriage is hard enough when you do fully commit yourself. Congratulations and best wishes.
Marriage is not something to go into half way, or even 95%, and especially when young. It will not only increase your chances of having a long marriage it will make it more fulfilling and satisfying. You can go into something, like maybe a job and half ass it. Other times that is just not going to cut it; for example you can't do that very well in a marriage, or in rearing children. If you can't fully commit, you are just playing house and so you should skip getting married and just shack up, roommates with privileges, nothing wrong with that if that is really what you want to do.

I can understand a pre-nup for people remarrying later in life, especially if kids are involved that need to be protected.

By all means have many long deep conversations with your wife2B, the sorts that might come with writing a pre-nup, but my fatherly advice would be to skip the pre-nup. Go into this with eyes open, but go in committed to forging a great marriage.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:08 am

Rodc wrote:
BBL wrote:
Rodc wrote:
You consider $15K, only half of which is at risk as "my big portfolio"?
I'm willing to bet that you know I was illustrating a point. :happy
I was serious. I was trying to get back to the question as asked, as opposed to making up some other imagined situation and addressing that.

The OP is trying to protect $15K. Now that is not the only issue he could consider, but that is what he asked advice about.
Too bad you didn't actually address the OPs questions [as you are now trying to claim], which are:
I have 7 k in my taxable account, and 8k in my nontaxable account...I know it isnt much,but its a start.
I am curious as to when we get married, IF we get divorced say under like 5 years. Does she get half of the money before the marriage that was in the accounts? Or just the investments and earnings DURING marriage?
Also, i was told that gifts during a marriage are seperation of property.. When I plan to buy my house, my dad will give me 12k, and so will my mom...Is this protected also? I am in NY.
Thank You!
He was asking about separate property laws in NY

How does your response [below] address those questions as you claim was your purpose?:
by Rodc » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:54 pm

In five years or hopefully later when you get divorced half of your current savings will look like chump change.

Better to put your efforts into understand how to build a good marriage; that would be a far better use of your time and energy.
He asked about separate property and you told him to deal with his relationship.

Nice try.

Oh yeah - you did address those separate property questions in your second response, right?:
by Rodc » Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:36 am

Come on guys, all this talk of a prenup to "protect" $7,500? Honestly?

Me thinks there is something like fear of marriage in general at work here for many posters and fear of this marriage for the OP, because this is not rational.

If you can't put a few thousand dollars at risk, you probably should not be getting married, because you are putting a whole lot more than a few dollars on the line when you get married.

Seriously, figure out your real issues, because protecting your savings is not the real issue, it is only how the issue is leaking out.
That was a little too much Dr Phil and not enough JD/LLM for my taste but thanks for the legal analysis....

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by Rodc » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:38 am

He was asking about separate property laws in NY
Fair enough.

Does remind me of one thing though, back to Dr Phil, which some people seem to need:
When I plan to buy my house, my dad will give me 12k, and so will my mom...Is this protected also?
This is a huge red flag: YOUR house? Not OUR house?

This whole thread screams, to me, that you are not ready to be married.

(And yes I am not following my own advice to address only the question asked. :) )
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by FillorKill » Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:43 am

Rodc wrote:
He was asking about separate property laws in NY
Fair enough.

Does remind me of one thing though, back to Dr Phil, which some people seem to need:
When I plan to buy my house, my dad will give me 12k, and so will my mom...Is this protected also?
This is a huge red flag: YOUR house? Not OUR house?

This whole thread screams, to me, that you are not ready to be married.
Agreed. Too much "I & Me" not enough "Us & We" is disconcerting.

EDIT to add:
(And yes I am not following my own advice to address only the question asked. )
:wink: Why start now? :wink:

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Re: Divorce question for the Bogleheads

Post by UpstateNY86 » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:02 pm

Thanks for all the responses... :beer

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