Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Non-investing personal finance issues including insurance, credit, real estate, taxes, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.
devopscoder
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by devopscoder »

I went to my state university (Rutgers) for four years in EE. I learned a lot and enjoyed the entire social/academic experience. I did fine with the large classes the first two years with the smaller recitation classes. I thought the TAs that I had did a fine job.

There are some people suggesting that one attend community college for 2 years and then transfer. I would not suggest that unless you it's the difference between attending or not attending college due to cost. I believe transfer students have a tougher time because they need to start over with making new friends and adjusting to a different school. If you can avoid that, that's the best option. To me, college is not just about academic learning. It's also about growing up, managing your time, and living/being with other people. Most of the friends I had were made in my first two years of school. I did make new friends the last two years but the bulk were older ones.

Those who actually did the community college route for 2 years and then transfer, what was college like from a social perspective? I can see if one is an introvert that they might not care about this.
User avatar
JoeRetire
Posts: 15381
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:44 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by JoeRetire »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
"Worth it" is in the eye of the beholder.
This isn't just my wallet. It's an organizer, a memory and an old friend.
JackoC
Posts: 4710
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by JackoC »

Jags4186 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:26 am Public vs. private doesn't mean much. It always depends on the school. Just from a resume perspective, would you rather have a degree from UC Berkeley or Seattle University? Would you rather have a degree from University of Virginia or from Thomas Jefferson University? Sure, the allure of private is there when you're talking about Harvard, Yale, Williams, Amherst but is the allure there when you're talking about any random tier 2 or 3 private school?
I agree, 'public' v 'private' is ripe for people to have different things in mind for one or both and what's a fuzzy subjective debate even if everyone is on the same page can become meaningless.

I really doubt the wisdom of turning down Ivy if you get in (I did, everything has turned out fine, but this was long ago, people can get lucky in various ways later on: I would not recommend it now). Or the few really comparable places on the prestige scale. You can be as 'aw shucks regular guy/gal' as you want to be personally, but prestige of your school matters IME. Of course it's not that it's objectively *so* much better an education, you can't actually get as rigorous an engineering education there as I got, I don't believe. But 'I don't care what anybody else thinks' only becomes a reasonable statement later in life when you achieved certain things, by hard work, luck, 'privilege' or whatever combination you want to theorize.

After that, it really depends. UC system (where I went to grad school), especially the harder to get into campuses/programs, has as you say no fixed subordinate relationship, even on the 'shallow' basis of prestige, vs. any given 'private' school outside a very short list of names that again you're better to find a way to attend if you should get in, IMO.
Topic Author
MrCheapo
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MrCheapo »

Sure an Ivy league school is worth the cost, but the question was Private vs State not Ivy vs State and to be frank if my kid got into an Ivy league school they would have got into a UC (one would hope).
JackoC wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:27 pm I really doubt the wisdom of turning down Ivy if you get in (I did, everything has turned out fine, but this was long ago, people can get lucky in various ways later on: I would not recommend it now). Or the few really comparable places on the prestige scale. You can be as 'aw shucks regular guy/gal' as you want to be personally, but prestige of your school matters IME. Of course it's not that it's objectively *so* much better an education, you can't actually get as rigorous an engineering education there as I got, I don't believe. But 'I don't care what anybody else thinks' only becomes a reasonable statement later in life when you achieved certain things, by hard work, luck, 'privilege' or whatever combination you want to theorize.
DidItMyWay
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:19 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by DidItMyWay »

anon_investor wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:54 pm
DidItMyWay wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:51 pm
anon_investor wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:47 pm
mceagle555 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:36 pm As someone who has worked in Higher Education & tech for 20+ years:

- Private university (Top-20) worth it for those going into big-law or government/politics?: Yes. This is all about connections.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for tech jobs?: No. Focus on good state schools + certifications. Tech is already heavily being swayed towards certifications.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for liberal arts?: Absolutely not.
As form biglaw, I can say undergrad means not all that much good grades are more important, and the LSAT likely the most important. Law school is a different story, if you can get into a top 14/15 law school that cost may be worth it over a lesser law school (if your goal is biglaw).

But I don't think the OP mentioned the kind of private college/university. I think an Ivy league may be worth it over a lesser UC. An Ivy over UC Berkely/LA, tougher call.
Former BigLaw here too: I agree with anon_investor.
I hope you got out before your soul was completely crushed and found something good. I went in-house, and couldn't be happier.
Ha ha, yes I did. I'm glad that you got something good too.
Slow and steady wins the race.
neverpanic
Posts: 1023
Joined: Sun May 10, 2020 12:26 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by neverpanic »

KFBR392 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:11 pm
neverpanic wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 12:44 pm
CA also has the auto-admission to a UC for the top 9% of the class and very high admission rate to CSUs for qualified graduates.
My understanding is this now comes with a "pending available space" asterisk and that you'll rarely get your top choice for a campus. Choosing between a more expensive private school and UC Merced isn't the same as weighing private university vs. UCI.
Yes, Merced is the baby of the bunch and it is in Merced, but it's a large town that's on the rise as the university comes into its own. I'm older, so I don't know anyone who graduated from Merced, but anecdotally have talked with parents whose HS graduates had Merced admission as their safety and were then debating whether to attend Irvine, Riverside, Santa Cruz, SB, etc. The decision was not as automatic as one might expect. And now I'm seeing pretty good students with Merced as their top choice. It'll be interesting to track outcomes over the next decade or so.
I am not a financial professional or guru. I'm a schmuck who got lucky 10 times. Such is the life of the trader.
JackoC
Posts: 4710
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by JackoC »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:37 pm Sure an Ivy league school is worth the cost, but the question was Private vs State not Ivy vs State and to be frank if my kid got into an Ivy league school they would have got into a UC (one would hope).
JackoC wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:27 pm I really doubt the wisdom of turning down Ivy if you get in (I did, everything has turned out fine, but this was long ago, people can get lucky in various ways later on: I would not recommend it now). Or the few really comparable places on the prestige scale. You can be as 'aw shucks regular guy/gal' as you want to be personally, but prestige of your school matters IME. Of course it's not that it's objectively *so* much better an education, you can't actually get as rigorous an engineering education there as I got, I don't believe. But 'I don't care what anybody else thinks' only becomes a reasonable statement later in life when you achieved certain things, by hard work, luck, 'privilege' or whatever combination you want to theorize.
'Private' v 'State' has no meaningful answer IMO. My point is that in a discussion like this some participants, if not you, tend to equate 'private' with top prestige private U's. And there is a list such U's, not just the Ivy's but few more, where the kid should find a way to attend if they get in, it at all possible, and turn down UC. But it's quite short list. Although a longer list if 'state' is in NJ where I live now. Again disclosing I'm a UC graduate degree alumni so I might be biased in that system's favor. It's all pretty fuzzy I think.
Last edited by JackoC on Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by stoptothink »

hi_there wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:06 pm My former classmate is becoming a billionaire due to unicorn fintech that is about to have an IPO. He's the second person I know to be in this situation, as far as I know. I can't count the others who have merely 8 figure net worth or are heading there. We're all in our 30s. I doubt any of this would have been possible without the alumni connections and career incubation from the university we attended.

With this experience in mind, I would say that if you have a shot to attend a very elite private, top 5 maybe, university in the US, then it is a no-brainer decision. What they give you almost cannot be quantified in academic rankings; whatever you have to pay will be worth it. The value is less apparent as you descend in the rankings from there (from what I can tell at least).
If you want to get into fintech, absolutely a case can be made that whatever you have to pay will be worth it. I have a sibling and several friends who did HYPMS undergrad, zero in fields where it likely makes a difference (several physicians and teachers, a handful in non-medical science fields) and the career results seem to support that. Similarly, I went to UCLA "almost free" and I regret not going to a slightly lower ranked university for undergrad completely free. It simply makes no difference in my field.

As a California native, I have all kinds of issues with my home state, but the quality of public universities certainly isn't one of them.

As with most things, generalities on this topic are pointless.
fatcoffeedrinker
Posts: 445
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:03 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by fatcoffeedrinker »

Deleted
Last edited by fatcoffeedrinker on Wed Mar 02, 2022 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
anon_investor
Posts: 15111
Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by anon_investor »

DidItMyWay wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:42 pm
anon_investor wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:54 pm
DidItMyWay wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:51 pm
anon_investor wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:47 pm
mceagle555 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:36 pm As someone who has worked in Higher Education & tech for 20+ years:

- Private university (Top-20) worth it for those going into big-law or government/politics?: Yes. This is all about connections.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for tech jobs?: No. Focus on good state schools + certifications. Tech is already heavily being swayed towards certifications.
- Private university (Top-20) worth it for liberal arts?: Absolutely not.
As form biglaw, I can say undergrad means not all that much good grades are more important, and the LSAT likely the most important. Law school is a different story, if you can get into a top 14/15 law school that cost may be worth it over a lesser law school (if your goal is biglaw).

But I don't think the OP mentioned the kind of private college/university. I think an Ivy league may be worth it over a lesser UC. An Ivy over UC Berkely/LA, tougher call.
Former BigLaw here too: I agree with anon_investor.
I hope you got out before your soul was completely crushed and found something good. I went in-house, and couldn't be happier.
Ha ha, yes I did. I'm glad that you got something good too.
:sharebeer
Paternity leave in biglaw was a much different experience than in-house!
chiliagon
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2020 7:49 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by chiliagon »

The public vs private distinction is one. Another is the big, impersonal place where my kid won’t get much personal attention from professors vs the smaller place where my kid will get lots of personal attention from professors. Plenty of private schools are actually in the big, impersonal category. If your kid is used to knowing his or her teachers and views learning from them partly in terms of a mentor-student personal relationship with them, then your kid might be best served by finding a school where this is possible. Some kids can’t handle being a nameless number in a class: they feel themselves falling through the cracks, and they have trouble pulling themselves out of this, especially if they are away from their parents and previous at-home support system.

This is just one consideration, of course. There are lots others, including cost. Another that matters, in my view, is the value system that the school has. 18-22 are impressionable years. It does matter what influences — religiously, morally, and so on — there are and aren’t at the school. People tend to think they are unaffected by these factors, but they almost always significantly are.
Chuckles960
Posts: 917
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Chuckles960 »

Lots of responses on the lines of "I/My daughter/son did fine at a state school". This is called an anecdote. You cannot repeat the experiment at another school, so it does not provide a comparison. Also, what does "fine" mean?

Unless there are reliable stats, the discussion is all about beliefs rather than facts.

Now as someone who is employed at a major private school, I do believe our tuition rate is a ripoff (although indeed it is often discounted), and that we exploit our "amateur" football players to make untold millions, all of which goes to the top executives and entrepreneurial faculty and very little to staff or regular faculty. That's how it is. I've benefited from this system, but I don't like it. What we sell, mostly, is prestige (as has already been said). We also sell the opportunity to be friends with rich and/or high-achieving peers (mostly "or" rather than "and"). These benefits are intangible and unquantifiable.
devopscoder
Posts: 108
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by devopscoder »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:37 pm Sure an Ivy league school is worth the cost, but the question was Private vs State not Ivy vs State and to be frank if my kid got into an Ivy league school they would have got into a UC (one would hope).
I recall my brother not getting accepted at Berkley back in 87 as a NJ resident. He did get into Princeton, Cornell, and some other top schools. We were a lower middle class family where both parents attended some college but did not graduate. I remember that he was crushed by the decision. He attended Princeton on a full scholarship (tuition/room/board) (Merck & Co) and has done well in life.
User avatar
Watty
Posts: 28813
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:55 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Watty »

I have posted this on prior thread about selecting a college but when my son was going through the college selection process one quote really stuck with me.
Picking a college for your kid is not about picking the best college, it is about picking the college that is the best fit for your kid.

There is really a lot of truth to that since as long as it is a credible college if your kid fits in and thrives there that is a better choice than some much higher ranked college where your kid feels out of place and struggles and graduates low in their class.

One other thing to watch out for is that a colleges overall ranking and reputation can be very misleading. Even a top ranked university will have a few weak departments and many otherwise average universities can have a few nationally recognized strong departments.

It would likely be a waste of money to send your kid to an expensive private college only to have them major in a degree that is weak at that college.
fwellimort
Posts: 890
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:41 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by fwellimort »

It depends on the student, the intended major, the career profession, etc.

There's no 1 size fits all with this question.
My personal viewpoint is: If you can get into schools like Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, your child should attend unless the costs are outrageous (and unjustifiable).

The top UC schools will have good career prospects. I would even go on to say that the top students at UCB and UCLA will have very similar opportunities to most of the top elite schools of the US.
Personally, if I had UCB or UCLA as an option, then I would only look into schools like Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Columbia, MIT, CalTech, Stanford, Williams, Harvey Mudd, UPenn. These are very very very small subset of schools in the US and very luck based to get accepted to. And from there, I would go through cost differences before making any judgements (top privates can have good financial aid depending on family net worth and income).

As for the undergrad 'education quality', I believe there is a noticeable discrepancy in the humanities. The public schools just don't have good funding (that said, I assume the job prospects would be similar overall in between UCB/UCLA and top privates).
As for education in the sciences, I would say more or less identical. Neither public nor private schools in the US care about the quality (and the professors might not even speak English properly!).
As for education in the traditional engineering fields, I would stick to in-state. Unless the top privates are more affordable, I see no reason to forsake great schools like UCB, UCLA, UCSD.
And if grad school in Law or Medical is priority, I would stick to 2 primary factors: affordability and grade inflation. Schools like Brown University can be very attractive if these grad schools are priorities (due to rampant grade inflation). I would avoid schools known for grade deflation like Cornell at this tier. At end of day, I believe Law and Medical is known for reputable school + GPA + MCAT/LSAT score. Hence, attending a reputable school with the most grade inflation seems ideal.
If the child wants to work in finance (most of the lucrative jobs are in the East coast), then I would recommend the top privates in the US, especially the Ivy League + MIT. Proximity helps. That said, if the child wants to work in the financial industry (overall) and wants to stay in the West coast, without a doubt UCB Haas or Stanford (or Caltech but why would you torture yourself to this degree to work in the financial industry?).

Once you leave those small cachet of top privates, I personally can't see the justification for choosing a private over a public (in terms of potential career outcomes).
I would personally run the financial aid calculators up. Some schools can be very generous. Some schools are not. You never know. For instance, Harvard might not calculate your net worth of your first house in its financial aid but Columbia might after a certain threshold. Financial aid packages can be all over the place even with the same numbers at different schools.

California enjoys two great publics: UCB and UCLA. My personal recommendation is that UCLA might be better in undergrad. I think the average UCLA grad enjoys his/her undergrad more (better weather).
I have a few peers who graduated from UCB. One was from Haas and got out of college with a $180k total compensation job (and was full ride). Two other majored in EECS and works at AirBnb and LinkedIn today (AirBnb L4 can make around $330k and LinkedIn SSWE around $300k).
Clearly, UCB and UCLA has the opportunities available. Anyone telling you otherwise might be greatly misinformed. Top students at these schools will have all kinds of potentials.

Now, the question becomes far more difficult if UCB and UCLA is not an option. I would say UCSD can make sense in engineering + computer science. But as you go down the UC schools, I would greatly recommend the top privates (if OP can get in and the costs are affordable).

As for 2+2 path. Financially, it's the most "sound" option. In terms of 4 years of life experience, probably not. Most transfer students I know at Columbia had 0 friends throughout college. To them, the 4 years were just "stepping stone" to a job. There was no joy or longing with the school. Outside financial reasons, I really don't want anyone I know to go through that kind of experience. Life is way too short for 4 years to be dark and gloomy (4 years is a significant time!). After all, your child depending on the field might earn all that in the first year out of college. Is 4 years of loneliness really worth a few extra grands?

P.S. If I were in-state for these schools and got into say schools like Princeton then no questions, Princeton it is (regardless of the field). Some schools in the US carry a special flair and the connections there can be incredible. All my Princeton peers have enjoyed college and are doing great in real life. And they were all very smart and talented (and great people to hang around). Money cannot gain friends with those kinds of peers.
Anyways, as for overall private universities vs state universities. In general, I think privates are not worth the cost (and should be mostly attended for financial aid). As for the top privates, the equation could greatly differ.
Ependytis
Posts: 612
Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2016 11:10 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Ependytis »

The most important thing is your kid graduates, what they major in, and finally what school they go to. What school they go to is a distant third. For all the posters that talk about fit, how do you measure that in a one or two day visit to the University? You certainly wouldn’t move to a different city based on a one or two day visit. One things for certain, if you go to a private school, you’ll have to pay back whatever you borrow with interest.
sbelcroft
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2020 8:32 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by sbelcroft »

OP, you'll send everyone in circles here if you don't provide any info about your kid's intended field of study, determination and/or learning style. If you don't know, which is 100% acceptable, even that information will help narrow this down.
30west
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:22 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by 30west »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:06 am Private universities do not provide a better undergraduate education, but the prestige factor provides a bit of magic in landing a good job after graduation.
Unless the guy hiring you also went to that state school....
User avatar
quantAndHold
Posts: 10141
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by quantAndHold »

I spent a number of years interviewing and hiring recent grads for jobs. My impression is that the UC curriculum is solid and well thought out, and their grads tend to be very competent, well educated hires. Any of the UC’s are a good solid first choice school.

As far as public vs private for someone who isn’t a good enough student to get accepted at a UC, I think it doesn’t matter. Someone who can’t get accepted at any of the UC’s is also not going to get accepted at any of the highly selective private schools, either. I would probably encourage that kid to either go to a CSU, or community college, and then transfer to a UC or CSU. I think the community college route is good for kids who didn’t quite do well enough to get into a UC or CSU as a freshman. Especially in locations and majors where the CSU’s are impacted, your kid might *have* to take the CC route, because the CSU’s won’t really admit very many freshmen, and the expectation is that the kid will take all the classes they can at the CC before transferring. The bonus is that it’s a lot cheaper. A hint on CC’s… The more serious students tend to be in the night classes, so encourage your kid to take their classes at night, even if they don’t have a day job.

After all is said and done with financial aid and scholarships, for lots of people, public and private are probably not that far apart in price. I went to private, and so did all my siblings, because we were able to get scholarship money, and it was a better deal. Private was a better deal for one of my kids who was a middling student. Another kid went to an elite private, and it was definitely *not* as cheap as a UC or CSU, but she got an educational experience that was right *for her*. I think the real advantage of private schools, especially smaller ones, is smaller classes and more personal attention. Some kids do just fine in a huge school, but others thrive in a smaller environment.
30west
Posts: 101
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2020 7:22 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by 30west »

DD is heading off to college in a few weeks so we just went through this. She was valedictorian of her class and we did not see very generous offers from the private schools and i suspect the reason has something to do with our net worth. Frankly we could afford the 75k/year but we didnt get to where we are financially by taking the flashy, expensive option. Im all about value and so DD will be going to an out of state school that offeted a generous merit scholarship. The 250k we save by doing this, invested over 30 years will provide a nice inheritance some day.
User avatar
RickBoglehead
Posts: 7852
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:10 am
Location: In a house

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by RickBoglehead »

Chuckles960 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:52 pm Lots of responses on the lines of "I/My daughter/son did fine at a state school". This is called an anecdote. You cannot repeat the experiment at another school, so it does not provide a comparison. Also, what does "fine" mean?

Unless there are reliable stats, the discussion is all about beliefs rather than facts.

Now as someone who is employed at a major private school, I do believe our tuition rate is a ripoff (although indeed it is often discounted), and that we exploit our "amateur" football players to make untold millions, all of which goes to the top executives and entrepreneurial faculty and very little to staff or regular faculty. That's how it is. I've benefited from this system, but I don't like it. What we sell, mostly, is prestige (as has already been said). We also sell the opportunity to be friends with rich and/or high-achieving peers (mostly "or" rather than "and"). These benefits are intangible and unquantifiable.
Wow, talk about bringing people back to reality... :D Most content on forums is totally subjective opinion with little basis in fact. People ask a wide-ranging question without specifics, and get totally useless information (given that it's all opinion-based).

Here's mine :twisted:

Some of the top universities in the country, in specific fields, are public universities. Our sons went to one of them. Of course it also has out-of-state tuition that ties closely to private universities, i.e. you don't save money unless you're in-state.

People need to do RESEARCH. Research is not opinions on forums. Some people ask every question they can think of on forums instead of doing their own research.

The OP asks for opinions for all states, which makes it even more useless. Some states have state schools that you shouldn't send a pet to.
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, EV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.
User avatar
Vulcan
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Vulcan »

fwellimort wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:06 pm Money cannot gain friends with those kinds of peers.
This.

Peers really is the most important consideration in considering any educational environment.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
User avatar
quantAndHold
Posts: 10141
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm
Location: West Coast

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by quantAndHold »

devopscoder wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:17 pm There are some people suggesting that one attend community college for 2 years and then transfer. I would not suggest that unless you it's the difference between attending or not attending college due to cost.

One thing to note is that OP is asking about California. Especially in the CSU system, depending on what school the kid wants to go to, admission as a freshman, or admission to some majors are highly selective, and the only way for an average student to get into the school is to live in the local area and go to CC for two years first. Nearly all of the Southern California CSU’s are this way, for example, and even the schools that aren’t impacted have certain majors that are impacted. Usually the popular majors, of course.
User avatar
Vulcan
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Vulcan »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 1:13 pm The few top universities that are arguably worth their price are not ones whose typical student can benefit from community college offerings, and their admissions are significantly more selective than UC (as evidenced by average test scores; e.g. 25%-75% ACT UCLA 29-35; Caltech 35-36).
quantAndHold wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:46 pm As far as public vs private for someone who isn’t a good enough student to get accepted at a UC, I think it doesn’t matter. Someone who can’t get accepted at any of the UC’s is also not going to get accepted at any of the highly selective private schools, either.
I was a bit more circumspect upthread as I was hesitant to put it in these exact terms :-) , but I think this is exactly right.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by stoptothink »

RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:06 pm
Chuckles960 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:52 pm Lots of responses on the lines of "I/My daughter/son did fine at a state school". This is called an anecdote. You cannot repeat the experiment at another school, so it does not provide a comparison. Also, what does "fine" mean?

Unless there are reliable stats, the discussion is all about beliefs rather than facts.

Now as someone who is employed at a major private school, I do believe our tuition rate is a ripoff (although indeed it is often discounted), and that we exploit our "amateur" football players to make untold millions, all of which goes to the top executives and entrepreneurial faculty and very little to staff or regular faculty. That's how it is. I've benefited from this system, but I don't like it. What we sell, mostly, is prestige (as has already been said). We also sell the opportunity to be friends with rich and/or high-achieving peers (mostly "or" rather than "and"). These benefits are intangible and unquantifiable.
Wow, talk about bringing people back to reality... :D Most content on forums is totally subjective opinion with little basis in fact. People ask a wide-ranging question without specifics, and get totally useless information (given that it's all opinion-based).

Here's mine :twisted:

Some of the top universities in the country, in specific fields, are public universities. Our sons went to one of them. Of course it also has out-of-state tuition that ties closely to private universities, i.e. you don't save money unless you're in-state.

People need to do RESEARCH. Research is not opinions on forums. Some people ask every question they can think of on forums instead of doing their own research.

The OP asks for opinions for all states, which makes it even more useless. Some states have state schools that you shouldn't send a pet to.
There were countless posts preceding that one that basically said, "it depends". Where you live, what field the student goes into, the financial picture, other available options, whether it is an "elite" student who can gain admission to top schools...there are so many individual factors which make all of our anecdotes pointless to the OP.

And just to invite more anecdotes, there are thousands upon thousands of graduates from those "state schools you shouldn't send your pet to" who have been wildly successful :D
User avatar
RickBoglehead
Posts: 7852
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:10 am
Location: In a house

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by RickBoglehead »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:22 pm And just to invite more anecdotes, there are thousands upon thousands of graduates from those "state schools you shouldn't send your pet to" who have been wildly successful :D
Sure, if you consider pizza delivery driver wildly successful. :P Note - this is specific to the "school down south" that many in the midwest are familiar with. :twisted:
Avid user of forums on variety of interests-financial, home brewing, F-150, EV, home repair, etc. Enjoy learning & passing on knowledge. It's PRINCIPAL, not PRINCIPLE. I ADVISE you to seek ADVICE.
Jags4186
Posts: 8198
Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2014 7:12 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Jags4186 »

I would also add that people who keep saying that if you go to public school you end up in big classes and at private schools either don’t remember college or are just repeating things they’ve overheard.

I went to one of those large “elite” public universities. Did I have big lecture classes? Yes — Econ 101 was a 300 person lecture 2x a week led the professor and then a 15 or 20 person class 1x a week which would was led by a Masters or PHD Econ student/TA. Same with Astronomy 101, same with my personal favorite class Symphonic Masterworks. But once I got past 101 and 102 classes, pretty much all of my classes were taught in regular classrooms like you’d see in any high school around the country. And when I had to write my thesis 1st semester of my 4th year it was a professor and maybe 7 students 4 or 5 weeks in a row, and then you’d have 1 on 1 time with the professor once a week for the remainder of the semester.
Topic Author
MrCheapo
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MrCheapo »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:16 pm
fwellimort wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:06 pm Money cannot gain friends with those kinds of peers.
This.

Peers really is the most important consideration in considering any educational environment.
Thank you and someone else wrote "there are so many individual factors which make all of our anecdotes pointless to the OP. " But I find these perspectives/anecdotes very valuable. The above quote is something I never really thought about when considering a private school.
stoptothink
Posts: 15368
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 8:53 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by stoptothink »

Jags4186 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:28 pm I would also add that people who keep saying that if you go to public school you end up in big classes and at private schools either don’t remember college or are just repeating things they’ve overheard.

I went to one of those large “elite” public universities. Did I have big lecture classes? Yes — Econ 101 was a 300 person lecture 2x a week led the professor and then a 15 or 20 person class 1x a week which would was led by a Masters or PHD Econ student/TA. Same with Astronomy 101, same with my personal favorite class Symphonic Masterworks. But once I got past 101 and 102 classes, pretty much all of my classes were taught in regular classrooms like you’d see in any high school around the country. And when I had to write my thesis 1st semester of my 4th year it was a professor and maybe 7 students 4 or 5 weeks in a row, and then you’d have 1 on 1 time with the professor once a week for the remainder of the semester.
My next-door neighbor teaches math at a private university. OK, not an "elite" one, but private nonetheless. He has some courses with 600+ students :shock: . I don't think I ever had a course with close to that many students at UCLA (which has a lot more students total), and (like you) many of my upper division courses had less than a dozen students.

OP did a fabulous job of starting a pointless discussion with no answer. Next level trolling.
RetiredCSProf
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

My son went to CA CC for his AA degree, transferred to a private LAC for one year, and then transferred to a CSU, where he finished his BA. He was offered admission as a transfer student from CC to nearly all the UCs to which he applied, including UC Berkeley.

The transfer process from a CA CC to the UC or CSU system is relatively seamless. It is typically more difficult to transfer from a CC to a private school -- more difficult to find equivalent GE and Intro classes; USC is one exception to this. Private schools are more likely to offer scholarships to incoming freshman and are less generous with scholarships to transfer students.

Tuition at OOS universities are likely to be the most expensive. We found that private schools offered enough scholarship to make them competitive with the cost of an OOS university -- but this would depend on the applicant.

I have taught CS classes at CA CC, UCLA, and a private LAC. It is not uncommon for the same lecturers to teach at multiple schools in the same area.
Topic Author
MrCheapo
Posts: 1450
Joined: Tue Dec 22, 2020 2:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MrCheapo »

RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm He was offered admission as a transfer student from CC to nearly all the UCs to which he applied, including UC Berkeley.
Thanks for this. May I ask when this was and into what major?
User avatar
Vulcan
Posts: 2975
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 11:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Vulcan »

stoptothink wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:39 pm OP did a fabulous job of starting a pointless discussion with no answer. Next level trolling.
Actually, in OP's case the answer is pretty darn clear: there are very few schools (I'd say fewer than 10, discussions can be had about how many fewer) for which a good argument can be made for paying extra over in-state UCLA (top-rated public university in the country, and top 20 overall).

And none of them are easier to get into than in-state UCLA.
If you torture the data long enough, it will confess to anything. ~Ronald Coase
RetiredCSProf
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:47 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm He was offered admission as a transfer student from CC to nearly all the UCs to which he applied, including UC Berkeley.
Thanks for this. May I ask when this was and into what major?
For the 2018-2019 academic year. He applied for a major in Film Studies / Film Production. One of his classmates transferred from CC to UC Berkeley as a Studio Art major. Another classmate transferred to USC as an Economics major. As I recall, the data are available online for the number of transfer students accepted by UCs from CC's -- I do not remember the link for finding the data.
hahabye
Posts: 42
Joined: Wed May 01, 2019 2:43 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by hahabye »

So glad I live in Florida where 4 years of tuition at both UF (top 10 public university) and FSU (top 20) are approximately $25,000 for all four years total! The UC system is amazing, so many schools in the top ten but damn they are expensive. And no way would I pay for a private university unless it was an Ivy or Stanford.

:sharebeer
palaheel
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:35 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by palaheel »

I think the only school that matters is the last one. If you want an MD from Harvard, your undergrad school has to be good enough to pave your way into Harvard Med School. Beyond that, once you have the Harvard MD, nobody's going to ask where you went to college.
Nothing to say, really.
AnEngineer
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:05 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by AnEngineer »

fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:57 am I don't have to pay for college.
True.
My kids can get loans.
Not quite. The loans your kids can get are limited in quantity. Mostly you can get loans.
User avatar
Ben Mathew
Posts: 2712
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:41 am
Location: Seattle

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Ben Mathew »

RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm I have taught CS classes at CA CC, UCLA, and a private LAC. It is not uncommon for the same lecturers to teach at multiple schools in the same area.
Can you compare your classes at the community college vs UCLA vs private LAC along some of the following dimensions?

- Are there better discussions / more engagement among students in one setting?
- Where are students less likely to become discouraged and drop out of CS?
- Where do students have more research opportunities?
- Do you know your students at CC, UCLA or the LAC the best?
- For an above-average student in your UCLA CS class, might they have been better served by the CC or the private LAC?
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter a top 20 CS graduate program?
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter industry?

Thanks!
Total Portfolio Allocation and Withdrawal (TPAW)
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 18461
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

devopscoder wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:17 pm I went to my state university (Rutgers) for four years in EE. I learned a lot and enjoyed the entire social/academic experience. I did fine with the large classes the first two years with the smaller recitation classes. I thought the TAs that I had did a fine job.

There are some people suggesting that one attend community college for 2 years and then transfer. I would not suggest that unless you it's the difference between attending or not attending college due to cost. I believe transfer students have a tougher time because they need to start over with making new friends and adjusting to a different school. If you can avoid that, that's the best option. To me, college is not just about academic learning. It's also about growing up, managing your time, and living/being with other people. Most of the friends I had were made in my first two years of school. I did make new friends the last two years but the bulk were older ones.

Those who actually did the community college route for 2 years and then transfer, what was college like from a social perspective? I can see if one is an introvert that they might not care about this.
I can answer this for me. Got my associates and worked for 3 years, then went to 4 year local college for a year, transferred and finished remaining 3 years. I made friends and was in various clubs and teams in both 4 year colleges. That, with me being older than those around me (I became a resident advisor the second semester of my Freshman year).

You may be scratching your head saying "hey, you got an associates. Why'd it take you 4 years to finish a Bachelors degree?". Because only one course from my Electronics Technology associates degree transferred to the 4 year. English Comp. This is one of the problems with "just go to community college, then transfer". I looked at this again when one of my sons was looking into community college in Mass. Whether a course transfers completely depends on both the college AND the major transferring into. To transfer into a UMass college, there were some STEM majors who accepted some of the CC courses and some that absolutely did not. So it is not an assumption I would make. For me.....when going into CC, I was not looking to eventually go to a 4 year. That came later.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
User avatar
celia
Posts: 16762
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by celia »

humblecoder wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:33 am What I have observed is that many private universities are very generous in terms of their merit and need-based scholarships. Therefore, you cannot compare sticker prices. One of the private schools that we are looking at for my son might actually cost less than our state's flagship public university based upon the merit scholarships that they offer for students with a certain GPA.
We live between 2 UC campuses and the one that is in the same county as our kids’ high school went to the school to recruit. The HS college counselor pointed out the top students who were applying there and some talked to the recruiter. About a dozen were accepted (the most ever from their faith-based HS), but none of them attended there as financial aid packages at various privates made their cost be less than at the UC.

At the CA public colleges, the limited financial aid goes to the very poor (including students not born in the state but who attended HS here).


One of my kids was also offered a free ride at the UC in the next county over since they wanted to attract the best students and staff for a new CS major they were starting up. But my kid preferred to attend a well known private college famous for it’s CS department. (That UC campus is still not known for the major 10+ years later.)

Don’t forget that the California State Colleges are are also good. It is a different system than the University of California. The state colleges are 4-year colleges and some now have ‘University’ in their name, but are not part of the UC system.

University of California campuses:
https://admission.universityofcaliforni ... es-majors/

California State College campuses:
https://www2.calstate.edu/attend/campuses
Last edited by celia on Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
student
Posts: 10720
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 6:58 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by student »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:29 am
student wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:10 am You may be interested in this thread. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=200269&p=3066874&hi ... e#p3066874

UC is an excellent system. Unless is money is no object, I will stick with UC.
Thanks.

I agree UC is a great university system. But the problem is that getting into UC is getting more and more difficult. So if my kids do not get in, is spending 4 x on a private university worth it?

I don't see the worth quite frankly. Sure UC has its limitations (lower division classes are quite big and often taught by TAs not professors) but most of the lower division stuff kids learn from each other or YouTube.
This depends on the private university and the public university. I assume someone who did not get accepted to UC is unlikely to get accepted to Stanford or Cal Tech. I will give one example in Texas. In 2017, Southern Methodist was listed at about $52K and Texas A&M was listed at about $10K. Both similarly ranked by US News. (This is not an endorsement of US News ranking.) Under this circumstance, my view is that it is not worth it to pick SMU, based entirely on academics, unless the net price differential is negligible. (This assumes the student does not have a particular major in mind.)
AnEngineer
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:05 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by AnEngineer »

RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm The transfer process from a CA CC to the UC or CSU system is relatively seamless.
This depends on how diligent the student is and the quality of the advice given. Bad advice can lead to a bachelor's taking six years. You have to talk to both the schools and the department (mostly at the 4 year school) to see how to graduate on time. Note that courses transferring is insufficient, you have to get it to count as towards the corresponding graduation requirement at the receiving institution.
AnEngineer
Posts: 2407
Joined: Sat Jun 27, 2020 4:05 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by AnEngineer »

As California is the state in question, the answer is different than in a lot of places. UCs and CSUs have good reputations, but the details matter. Depending on major and school, some CSUs may be preferable to some UCs.
User avatar
celia
Posts: 16762
Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:32 am
Location: SoCal

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by celia »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:55 pm You may be scratching your head saying "hey, you got an associates. Why'd it take you 4 years to finish a Bachelors degree?". Because only one course from my Electronics Technology associates degree transferred to the 4 year. English Comp. This is one of the problems with "just go to community college, then transfer". I looked at this again when one of my sons was looking into community college in Mass. Whether a course transfers completely depends on both the college AND the major transferring into. To transfer into a UMass college, there were some STEM majors who accepted some of the CC courses and some that absolutely did not. So it is not an assumption I would make.
In California, this is not supposed to be a problem any more since the CC system, state colleges, and UCs became aligned about 10 or 15 years ago. To get more students through the last 2 years of the state colleges or UCs in 2 years, they aligned the curriculum across the 3 systems. As long as you take your general ed courses at the CC in the ‘college transfer’ system (don’t know the official name), courses in the 100 or 200 series will transfer, but not the same courses in the watered down 500 or 600 series. You will also be guaranteed admission if you take the pre-approved courses. (The course numbers may be different than what I’ve written, as this is to help make a point that all your CC courses need to be in the transferable series.)


The part I’ve never understood is that the state’s master plan was to make all the top 25% of HS students eligible for the UC and the top 50% eligible for the state colleges. Everyone, whether a HS grad or not can attend the CCs. Given this, why do the UCs snd State Colleges have remedial (non-credit) Math and English courses for students they admit who are deficient in these subjects? Why were they admitted if they are deficient in these basic subjects? I can understand foreign students needing English improvement before they get a degree but this was puzzling to me in high school and still is.
palaheel
Posts: 626
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:35 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by palaheel »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:55 pm
devopscoder wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 2:17 pm I went to my state university (Rutgers) for four years in EE. I learned a lot and enjoyed the entire social/academic experience. I did fine with the large classes the first two years with the smaller recitation classes. I thought the TAs that I had did a fine job.

There are some people suggesting that one attend community college for 2 years and then transfer. I would not suggest that unless you it's the difference between attending or not attending college due to cost. I believe transfer students have a tougher time because they need to start over with making new friends and adjusting to a different school. If you can avoid that, that's the best option. To me, college is not just about academic learning. It's also about growing up, managing your time, and living/being with other people. Most of the friends I had were made in my first two years of school. I did make new friends the last two years but the bulk were older ones.

Those who actually did the community college route for 2 years and then transfer, what was college like from a social perspective? I can see if one is an introvert that they might not care about this.
I can answer this for me. Got my associates and worked for 3 years, then went to 4 year local college for a year, transferred and finished remaining 3 years. I made friends and was in various clubs and teams in both 4 year colleges. That, with me being older than those around me (I became a resident advisor the second semester of my Freshman year).

You may be scratching your head saying "hey, you got an associates. Why'd it take you 4 years to finish a Bachelors degree?". Because only one course from my Electronics Technology associates degree transferred to the 4 year. English Comp. This is one of the problems with "just go to community college, then transfer". I looked at this again when one of my sons was looking into community college in Mass. Whether a course transfers completely depends on both the college AND the major transferring into. To transfer into a UMass college, there were some STEM majors who accepted some of the CC courses and some that absolutely did not. So it is not an assumption I would make. For me.....when going into CC, I was not looking to eventually go to a 4 year. That came later.
This was/is a terrible situation. In North Carolina, if you enter a CC "transfer program," you WILL be taking courses that transfer to state 4-year colleges. Grades, GPA and other things come into play regarding acceptance, so it's not quite as simple as "get your AA or AS and you can do anything you want." But someone getting at least a C in Calculus I will get credit for that course. My understanding is that Juniors transferring from CC do better than Juniors that started at that 4-year school.

Other CC programs include courses that do not have articulation agreements, and private schools do what they want with CC (or any other) transcripts.
Nothing to say, really.
MarkRoulo
Posts: 1192
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MarkRoulo »

MrCheapo wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 10:03 am I'd be curious to the general answer for all states but in particular California.

In CA our kids have several options when graduating:

1) Go directly into a U.C. (getting very hard now, the incoming mean GPA of some majors is now 4+)
2) Go into a community college and then transfer to a U.C. (but you could luck out and get stuck with a CC degree).
3) Go the private route either in-state or out of state.

The problem is that the cost of an ENTIRE UC 4 year degree in tuition is about $64K which is not much more than a SINGLE year of private school tuition!

So I can't seem to believe that a private school education is every worth it, but maybe I'm missing something.
My son has just wrapped up California Community College, so I can offer some insight on the transfer route.

TAG (Transfer Acceptance Guarantee) is a thing. Take the correct seven classes out of a list, get 60 semester units of UC transferable credit, have a GPA above 3.2 - 3.4 (depends on the campus) and you are guaranteed transfer to your choice of:
  • UC Santa Cruz
  • UC Davis
  • UC Irvine
  • UC Riverside
  • UC Santa Barbara
Berkeley, UCSD and UCLA don't participate, though you can still try to transfer to them (they just don't promise to take you). UCLA it seems has another program specific to transferring into UCLA.

TAG does *not* apply to a few degrees (engineering, applied arts such as dance ...), but works for humanities, science, math, economics ...
My son is a history major, so this was fine.

If you also take the IGETC sequence you are considered to have completed our General Education requirements, too. This is nice.

You can get an AA if you like. This can be useful if the child stops after two years or wants to transfer to a non-UC or CalState school.

It worked pretty much the way it was advertised on the tin and my son got in to all of the UCs he applied to for transfer (though he didn't apply to UCSD, Cal or UCLA). So it seems to work.

I'll note a few other things:
1) A number of private colleges took him, most of his credits and also credited him with mostly being done with GE requirements.
This might matter if child wants to go somewhere NOT UC. I'd recommend an AA, too, if this path is on the table.
Note that two years of private is more affordable than four :-)

2) If you or your child thinks being "away from home" is important (I did), you can rent an apartment near a non-local CC. Spending two years at Santa Barbara Community College and then transferring to UCSB isn't a horrible plan :-)


Community College does seem to be a back-door way to get a UC education without the GPA and SAT scores needed to be accepted straight out of high school. This is assuming the child *can* actually do the work, of course, but mine was nowhere NEAR being accepted out of high school and is now able to go ...
Rudy Tooty
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2020 11:39 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by Rudy Tooty »

I read that the UC system is no longer requires SAT or standardized test scores in the admission selection process. Mostly applicants are selected based on life experience and high school GPA. Huge divergence from past practices. Apparently it's a tactic to increase minority enrollment. Seems pretty unfair since high school grading varies greatly from school to school. Some schools really inflate the grades. Others don't. Standardized testing always separated the wheat from the chaff. If I were in that situation and the student was really motivated to learn and achieve, I would go private if I could afford it. If I was short on funds - I would go CC first, then transfer on to the UC system.
MarkRoulo
Posts: 1192
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2015 10:25 am

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by MarkRoulo »

celia wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 6:56 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:55 pm You may be scratching your head saying "hey, you got an associates. Why'd it take you 4 years to finish a Bachelors degree?". Because only one course from my Electronics Technology associates degree transferred to the 4 year. English Comp. This is one of the problems with "just go to community college, then transfer". I looked at this again when one of my sons was looking into community college in Mass. Whether a course transfers completely depends on both the college AND the major transferring into. To transfer into a UMass college, there were some STEM majors who accepted some of the CC courses and some that absolutely did not. So it is not an assumption I would make.
In California, this is not supposed to be a problem any more since the CC system, state colleges, and UCs became aligned about 10 or 15 years ago. To get more students through the last 2 years of the state colleges or UCs in 2 years, they aligned the curriculum across the 3 systems. As long as you take your general ed courses at the CC in the ‘college transfer’ system (don’t know the official name), courses in the 100 or 200 series will transfer, but not the same courses in the watered down 500 or 600 series. You will also be guaranteed admission if you take the pre-approved courses. (The course numbers may be different than what I’ve written, as this is to help make a point that all your CC courses need to be in the transferable series.)


The part I’ve never understood is that the state’s master plan was to make all the top 25% of HS students eligible for the UC and the top 50% eligible for the state colleges. Everyone, whether a HS grad or not can attend the CCs. Given this, why do the UCs snd State Colleges have remedial (non-credit) Math and English courses for students they admit who are deficient in these subjects? Why were they admitted if they are deficient in these basic subjects? I can understand foreign students needing English improvement before they get a degree but this was puzzling to me in high school and still is.
California has excellent alignment between CC, CalState and UC. The CC course catalogues even note for each course if it transfers to CalState, UC or both.

About that top XX%. Robert A Heinlein (science fiction author) noted in the 1970s that about 1/2 of the students at his local UC (Santa Cruz) were taking remedial classes. Your observation and complaint is not new.
PowderDay9
Posts: 1000
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:29 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by PowderDay9 »

Vulcan wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:16 pm
fwellimort wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 3:06 pm Money cannot gain friends with those kinds of peers.
This.

Peers really is the most important consideration in considering any educational environment.
+1

The elite undergrad schools are worth it IMO. Once you get outside the top 15 or 20 schools, then I'd probably lean public as the quality can be more similar and the cost value of public is very high.
Last edited by PowderDay9 on Mon Jul 26, 2021 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RetiredCSProf
Posts: 1226
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:59 pm

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by RetiredCSProf »

Ben Mathew wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 5:39 pm
RetiredCSProf wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 4:40 pm I have taught CS classes at CA CC, UCLA, and a private LAC. It is not uncommon for the same lecturers to teach at multiple schools in the same area.
Can you compare your classes at the community college vs UCLA vs private LAC along some of the following dimensions?

I should preference my answers by pointing out that I was a part-time lecturer with limited office hours -- most of my teaching was in conjunction with being a grad student myself or with working full-time as a computer scientist, or both.

- Are there better discussions / more engagement among students in one setting?
I found that the students who were the most engaged were "older" students:
Some students at the LAC were already working in the industry and pursuing an MS in CS through evening classes
One of my most enthusiastic students was in community college and working as a secretary to an engineer
At UCLA, my most engaged students were from foreign countries (Israel, GB, Brazil) and planned to return

- Where are students less likely to become discouraged and drop out of CS?
It is difficult to make this comparison due to the cyclic nature of students choosing a major. At one point, half the undergrads entering UCLA wanted to major in CS. CC students have more flexibility in waiting to choose their major; many, like my son, take 3 years to finish their AA. One of my undergrad students at the LAC switched from BioEngineering to CS, while another switched from CS to Journalism -- both of these women made the switch at the start of their Junior year, not out of discouragement, but more in finding their passion
- Where do students have more research opportunities?
UCLA
- Do you know your students at CC, UCLA or the LAC the best?
I do not know if you ask this in respect to being able to write a reference or in getting to know them personally. I would say that I knew my students at UCLA the least -- although I did write a grad school reference for one student. Students at UCLA were very focused, and there was little drama. I was much more willing to get to know my students as I matured from starting to teach in my 20's and transitioning into my 60's. When I taught my last class at the LAC, I had several students who were going through emotional and / or financial turmoil and needed a good listener
- For an above-average student in your UCLA CS class, might they have been better served by the CC or the private LAC?
This would depend on the student's goals in terms of grad school or getting a job straight out of undergrad. My son's choice to go to a CC hinged on him finding a good XC/track team and coach that fit his athletic goals -- his academic goals were secondary at that point. One of my CS students at UCLA was an athlete and that likely factored into her decision to go to UCLA
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter a top 20 CS graduate program?
UCLA. Most of my CS students at UCLA planned to apply to grad school and were extremely grade-conscious (as in, "will this be on the test?")
- Which institution would be best for a student looking to enter industry?
CC followed by a CSU with a good CS department
User avatar
ApeAttack
Posts: 914
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2020 7:28 pm
Location: Gorillatown, USA

Re: Are Private Universities Worth It Compared to State Universities?

Post by ApeAttack »

jandres12 wrote: Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:16 am If the kid couldn't get into a UC, I'd be looking at the Cal State system before looking at private. I don't see how a private school that has admission standards lesser than the UCs would benefit financially long term.
I am quite familiar with both the UC and CSU systems. The CSU is about half the cost and you get more personalized attention by faculty who are hired primarily to teach rather than do research. The UCs have far more cutting edge research opportunities and better sports teams.

If a student is fairly certain they want to get a PhD and want to get a head start conducting cutting edge research, then UCs might be a better option. Otherwise CSUs are a terrific option. And I've known plenty of CSU undergrads who eventually went to grad school and thrived.
May all your index funds gain +0.5% today.
Post Reply