What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

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radiowave
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by radiowave »

1moreyr wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:39 am The only regret I have is after I retired 6 months ago I took another job for 1 more year ! :oops:
1moreyr you flunked retirement. LOL
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AnEngineer
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by AnEngineer »

Starfish wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 4:12 pm
AnEngineer wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 7:49 am
I find this post interesting, as using a little money at a young age to travel the world sounds very in line with the ERE ethos.
Not really, because by young they mean 35-40y old, which is not at all young (like other people call early retired at 55, which to me its pretty standard age).
It's not really possible to save no money to 30 and retire at 40, unless you get very very lucky.
That's why I'm taking about the ethos. ERE is more philosophy than specific prescription. If you buy into it, then one reaction I've seen multiple times is frequent extended sabbaticals, if you will, matching what you're talking about, rather than work all at once and then retire.
1moreyr
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by 1moreyr »

radiowave wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:57 pm
1moreyr wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:39 am The only regret I have is after I retired 6 months ago I took another job for 1 more year ! :oops:
1moreyr you flunked retirement. LOL
yes, i did!!! and they are asking me to work...... wait for it........ ONE MORE YEAR......
TiredLawyer
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by TiredLawyer »

Here are the stats so far for folks who responded with their retirement age, or for which I could determine an approximate age range.

Of these 36 folks:
- 75% (27 people) had no regrets. Their median retirement age was 57, with a retirement age range of 45-70s.
- 5.6% (2 people) said they were bored. They were 63 and 71 when they retired.
-19.4% (7 people) said they would have retired a few years earlier. Their median retirement age was 63, with a retirement age range of 57-69.

P.S. I listed you as No Regrets if you didn't complain too much :D
Derpalator
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Derpalator »

Well, I put in for retirement one month and one day ago. Not sure if I qualify, but what the heck.

With the feeling of relief I've had, one thing I regret is not doing it sooner. Seriously, as it turns out the $$$ are fine; one concern is the difference in genetics between DW and myself, she will live much longer. :annoyed

Had I only not had ignorance about money/investing/LBYM, coulda woulda shoulda retired MUCH earlier....c'est la vie! But cannot be too hard on myself.....hard to do anything about what you don't know: the unknown unknowns.

But those were only unknown to me, so I guess they were known unknowns in general.

Once Bogleheads, FIRE, ERE, index funds, SPIVA, Bernstein, Nisiprius, etc were known and grokked, well the sledding became frightfully easy, and FUN! I admit to getting a kick out of that no matter how conservatively I did my calculations/projections they were always ridiculously liberal compared to many on this forum. But even with my conservatism of projections our retirement pot is 40% higher than my early projections, and I am retiring 4 years earlier than projected. It has been mentioned the market the last 10 years has been bountiful.

So circling back, biggest regret is not awakening to personal finance basics earlier: that one is on me.

Gee, if only I could get my kids to see this post and understand its context......THAT'S my goal for now.
dogagility
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by dogagility »

Derpalator wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:37 am Well, I put in for retirement one month and one day ago. Not sure if I qualify, but what the heck.

With the feeling of relief I've had, one thing I regret is not doing it sooner. Seriously, as it turns out the $$$ are fine; one concern is the difference in genetics between DW and myself, she will live much longer. :annoyed

Had I only not had ignorance about money/investing/LBYM, coulda woulda shoulda retired MUCH earlier....c'est la vie! But cannot be too hard on myself.....hard to do anything about what you don't know: the unknown unknowns.

But those were only unknown to me, so I guess they were known unknowns in general.

Once Bogleheads, FIRE, ERE, index funds, SPIVA, Bernstein, Nisiprius, etc were known and grokked, well the sledding became frightfully easy, and FUN! I admit to getting a kick out of that no matter how conservatively I did my calculations/projections they were always ridiculously liberal compared to many on this forum. But even with my conservatism of projections our retirement pot is 40% higher than my early projections, and I am retiring 4 years earlier than projected. It has been mentioned the market the last 10 years has been bountiful.

So circling back, biggest regret is not awakening to personal finance basics earlier: that one is on me.

Gee, if only I could get my kids to see this post and understand its context......THAT'S my goal for now.
There's a lot of wisdom packed into these sentences. :beer

I especially like the "grokking" section on financial epiphany. It really is a great feeling to have internalized the nuances and come out the other end with the realization that this (personal financial planning) can be quite simple. Just follow a few rules (espoused on BH) and then don't fret.
The more flexibility you have the less you need to know what happens next. -- Morgan Housel
Mike Scott
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Mike Scott »

I'm not retired but as others have said, I wish I had more finanacial literacy sooner. My parents and family knew how to cope with poverty. Learning to manage a fairly normal middle class income and do financial planning is completely different. I sometimes think my young adult children don't really understand why but I am having some success getting them to build some financial habits/patterns that will help them whether they ever understand it or not.
flyingaway
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by flyingaway »

TiredLawyer wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 4:58 am Here are the stats so far for folks who responded with their retirement age, or for which I could determine an approximate age range.

Of these 36 folks:
- 75% (27 people) had no regrets. Their median retirement age was 57, with a retirement age range of 45-70s.
- 5.6% (2 people) said they were bored. They were 63 and 71 when they retired.
-19.4% (7 people) said they would have retired a few years earlier. Their median retirement age was 63, with a retirement age range of 57-69.

P.S. I listed you as No Regrets if you didn't complain too much :D
Kind of make sense. For those who don't want to retire, they will regret retiring.

Most of my friends do not plan to retire before they are 70 years old. I don't blame them. They are professors and think their jobs are easy and more money is not a problem. They just don't know what is enough.
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HomerJ
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by HomerJ »

retiringwhen wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 6:31 am
1moreyr wrote: Sat May 01, 2021 5:39 am The only regret I have is after I retired 6 months ago I took another job for 1 more year ! :oops:
Stop doing that! :wink:
Well, he's kind of stuck now with that user name. Not sure how he will ever get off the treadmill. :)
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”
nigel_ht
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by nigel_ht »

GoneCamping wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:10 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 4:15 pm
HomerJ wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 2:46 pm
EnjoyIt wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:33 pm If working one extra year meant one fancy luxury would you do it? How many extras would you work for?

Examples are:
Flying first class everywhere
Fancy sports car
Boat
Upgraded backyard entertaining and BBQ area.
Personal chef x days a week
Maid to do your laundry and cleaning house
I’m sure you all can think of something.

How many extra years would you or have you done for your luxuries?
I plan on working an extra month or two in order to pay for business class/first class for when we someday do our bucket list Australia or New Zealand trip.

I'm not going to work a couple extra years so I can fly first class EVERYWHERE... I think I can handle 2-4 hours in the back for most trips.
Does it even have to be extra few years?
As an example, a family has $2.5 million looking to retire with $100k/yr spending. 1 extra year will provide an extra $8k per year spending and enough to upgrade to business class for 2 internationally every year plus some first class flights in the US. Is a year of your life worth it to have business class overseas once a year for the rest of your life?
I happened to just be looking into flights to Hawaii. $500 economy vs. $3,500 first class :shock: Even if I worked an extra year to cover that cost to allow me to afford the first class upgrade, I still wouldn't do it! As a value conscious shopper I simply wouldn't pay 7x more for a first class ticket. I'd need to have a whole lot more money before I'd even remotely consider it.
Well...my guess is that you'd want 7X the money you have today...and generally business class isn't as expensive. For the date I was looking at business class was $1400.
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Cycle »

TheTimeLord wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:44 am I must admit I am very envious of people who are easily able to fill their days in retirement. I have zero understanding of what they are doing to fill their days.
I am not retired, but I live in a big condo building where about half of folks are retired. There's a book club and a social committee. There's a renovation committee, which makes proposals for planned renovations to the various common areas. Many volunteer to maintain the gardens in our local park and on the greenway.

There's a gym with water aerobics that many go to, or just work out.

It's also a highly walkable area, and near our skyway system so even in winter it's walkable for people with balance issues. Some people are definitely home bound in our building, but others are out walking at least three or four times a day.

I think living near other retired people would increase odds of having things to do.

I think planning for trips, even if it's solo travel could also fill time. I love traveling solo.
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nguy44
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by nguy44 »

HomerJ wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:26 pm
nguy44 wrote: Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:35 am It also helps that, after less than 3 years of retirement and spending how we desire, we still have over 20% more than when I retired. Making money while doing "nothing" is a great feeling.
That's the biggest problem with asking this question today.

We might get a different answer from retirees 5 years from now if we have a big crash in 2022 that still hasn't recovered..
It depends. While as I mentioned, "it helps", but it was not expected. At the bottom of last years market drop we were only down 5% from when I retired, and I have the benefit of a good pension. I still had no regrets then.
hvaclorax
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by hvaclorax »

OP,
I have enjoyed this thread more than you can know. My overall impression is, there are many paths but only one destination. We are too full of ourselves. Too ambitious. Too much centered on our resume to look forward to our obituary. The Atlantic article was great. Right on.
We need to look at ourselves in transition from beginning to end. Top to bottom. No one gets out alive. Buddhist monks got it right. I tell my kids, “do well while doing good “. This is the resume vs obituary. They can be done simultaneously and at an early age. Not certain any one mentioned that they aren’t mutually exclusive.
No regrets.
HVAC thanks
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Johnsson
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Johnsson »

Derpalator wrote: Sun May 02, 2021 6:37 am Well, I put in for retirement one month and one day ago. Not sure if I qualify, but what the heck.

With the feeling of relief I've had, one thing I regret is not doing it sooner. Seriously, as it turns out the $$$ are fine; one concern is the difference in genetics between DW and myself, she will live much longer. :annoyed

Had I only not had ignorance about money/investing/LBYM, coulda woulda shoulda retired MUCH earlier....c'est la vie! But cannot be too hard on myself.....hard to do anything about what you don't know: the unknown unknowns.

But those were only unknown to me, so I guess they were known unknowns in general.

Once Bogleheads, FIRE, ERE, index funds, SPIVA, Bernstein, Nisiprius, etc were known and grokked, well the sledding became frightfully easy, and FUN! I admit to getting a kick out of that no matter how conservatively I did my calculations/projections they were always ridiculously liberal compared to many on this forum. But even with my conservatism of projections our retirement pot is 40% higher than my early projections, and I am retiring 4 years earlier than projected. It has been mentioned the market the last 10 years has been bountiful.

So circling back, biggest regret is not awakening to personal finance basics earlier: that one is on me.

Gee, if only I could get my kids to see this post and understand its context......THAT'S my goal for now.
I need to write my retirement letter in the next two days (to retire the 1st week of July).

I have the same regret... 'not awakening to personal finance basics earlier: that one is on me.' While I have tried to do the right things, I didn't know why. I'm sure I could have trimmed off a few more years if I had understood what I was doing.

My goal is also the same... While I think my children understand the need to invest they have no clue about anything beyond saving into a target retirement fund (thank goodness for them!!).
'In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.' Yogi Berra
leftcoaster
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by leftcoaster »

Wannaretireearly wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 6:27 am
SQRT wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:29 am
HanSolo wrote: Wed Apr 21, 2021 11:29 pm

The Atlantic ran a piece that illustrates the problem of loss of relevance, and why that might be even harder for people coming out of more prominent positions. It offers ideas on how to make the transition to a different phase of life, so that it doesn't wind up seeming empty.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/ar ... ne/590650/
Very useful, interesting article. Thanks for posting. I can especially identify with the goal of developing and maintaining social connections. My spouse and I make a conscious effort to keep contact with our friends. Many of these are friends we have developed since retirement through themed travel, volunteering, or other normal connections (hairstylist, masseur, etc). One potential risk of retirement, or getting older in general, is social isolation.
+1 very good article. Makes me want to plan now for post retirement activities that are eulogy, not resume, building!
Great article indeed, thank you. It jogged my memory of a phrase I first saw attributed to Geraldine Ferraro about three stages of life: learn, earn, return. I do hope learning is a lifelong opportunity, but its purpose may shift toward the support of eulogy activities in the return stage.

This was really timely reading for me as I plan my way out the door of paid work life and into a life of (more) service.
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changingtimes
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by changingtimes »

leftcoaster wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:02 am
Great article indeed, thank you. It jogged my memory of a phrase I first saw attributed to Geraldine Ferraro about three stages of life: learn, earn, return. I do hope learning is a lifelong opportunity, but its purpose may shift toward the support of eulogy activities in the return stage.

This was really timely reading for me as I plan my way out the door of paid work life and into a life of (more) service.
Yes, thanks for the article. I'm sort of struggling with this as the child of parents who expected great things from me, and actually still do. I'm in my early-mid-50s, and I've spent the pandemic working on an unexpected project that became a huge success, and my 87-year-old father is truly proud of what I accomplished. He'll say so, then in the next breath he'll say, "What are you doing for an encore?" I mean, really? I have more money than I'll ever needed (thanks to widowhood) and despite never liking the shackles of working life I have reached a level of success that is plenty enough for me, but I still feel the lifetime of pressure that I need to continue to strive for "more." Which I'm finding in its own way is a far greater barrier to pulling the ER trigger than I would have ever expected, and so I feel like I have to plan a retirement that is full of "accomplishment," even if mostly all I want to do is putter in my garden, at least until something intriguing catches my fancy. But my psyche has long ingrained that "puttering" is something I will have to feel guilty about and defend, not only to my father to perpetually to myself.

Ick.
Ivygirl
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Ivygirl »

changingtimes wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 am
leftcoaster wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:02 am
Great article indeed, thank you. It jogged my memory of a phrase I first saw attributed to Geraldine Ferraro about three stages of life: learn, earn, return. I do hope learning is a lifelong opportunity, but its purpose may shift toward the support of eulogy activities in the return stage.

This was really timely reading for me as I plan my way out the door of paid work life and into a life of (more) service.
Yes, thanks for the article. I'm sort of struggling with this as the child of parents who expected great things from me, and actually still do. I'm in my early-mid-50s, and I've spent the pandemic working on an unexpected project that became a huge success, and my 87-year-old father is truly proud of what I accomplished. He'll say so, then in the next breath he'll say, "What are you doing for an encore?" I mean, really? I have more money than I'll ever needed (thanks to widowhood) and despite never liking the shackles of working life I have reached a level of success that is plenty enough for me, but I still feel the lifetime of pressure that I need to continue to strive for "more." Which I'm finding in its own way is a far greater barrier to pulling the ER trigger than I would have ever expected, and so I feel like I have to plan a retirement that is full of "accomplishment," even if mostly all I want to do is putter in my garden, at least until something intriguing catches my fancy. But my psyche has long ingrained that "puttering" is something I will have to feel guilty about and defend, not only to my father to perpetually to myself.

Ick.
Your Dad could live another 25 years. Do you want to be 78 and still unable to putter in your garden because of what he might say? Nooooo. Tell him kindly "Back off, Dad" now while you still have some life to live. It's essential to him that you have a bigger and better encore. It's essential to you that you don't.

Source: am mid-50s and have a Mom like your Dad - proud of me and then perpetually disappointed. Life gets better when one stops being a child to this kind of parent I found.
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changingtimes
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by changingtimes »

Ivygirl wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:49 am Your Dad could live another 25 years. Do you want to be 78 and still unable to putter in your garden because of what he might say? Nooooo. Tell him kindly "Back off, Dad" now while you still have some life to live. It's essential to him that you have a bigger and better encore. It's essential to you that you don't.

Source: am mid-50s and have a Mom like your Dad - proud of me and then perpetually disappointed. Life gets better when one stops being a child to this kind of parent I found.
Probably not another 25 years, since he's 87. :) He actually retired from a very successful career at 59 because he was convinced he wasn't going to live that much longer. And it's not like he has done anything grand in his retirement, other than keep himself healthy with lots of exercise! So, yes, I will before too much longer tell him that I Gotta Be Me, but it's going to take a long time to get rid of the little voice telling me to do more. I just have to get good at ignoring it.

Sorry that your mother saddled you with a similar situation, though I'm glad that I haven't had parents who wielded "disappointment," just ones who always want more.
Ivygirl
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by Ivygirl »

changingtimes wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:00 am
Ivygirl wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:49 am Your Dad could live another 25 years. Do you want to be 78 and still unable to putter in your garden because of what he might say? Nooooo. Tell him kindly "Back off, Dad" now while you still have some life to live. It's essential to him that you have a bigger and better encore. It's essential to you that you don't.

Source: am mid-50s and have a Mom like your Dad - proud of me and then perpetually disappointed. Life gets better when one stops being a child to this kind of parent I found.
Probably not another 25 years, since he's 87. :) He actually retired from a very successful career at 59 because he was convinced he wasn't going to live that much longer. And it's not like he has done anything grand in his retirement, other than keep himself healthy with lots of exercise! So, yes, I will before too much longer tell him that I Gotta Be Me, but it's going to take a long time to get rid of the little voice telling me to do more. I just have to get good at ignoring it.

Sorry that your mother saddled you with a similar situation, though I'm glad that I haven't had parents who wielded "disappointment," just ones who always want more.
Even a year of that little voice is one year too long. That little voice is infantilizing. Grow up already. Please. Time is passing. You'll be old and still obeying He Who Need Not Be Obeyed Because You Are An Adult.
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changingtimes
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by changingtimes »

Ivygirl wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 10:21 am Even a year of that little voice is one year too long. That little voice is infantilizing. Grow up already. Please. Time is passing. You'll be old and still obeying He Who Need Not Be Obeyed Because You Are An Adult.
All good points, but you probably could dial back the tone a bit. As someone who was widowed at 50 after my soulmate died at 55, I know all about time passing and making sure to remember that you never know what life will bring and so to live it while you can.
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HomerJ
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by HomerJ »

TheTimeLord wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:44 am I must admit I am very envious of people who are easily able to fill their days in retirement. I have zero understanding of what they are doing to fill their days.
We moved to an active retirement community in Arizona (Although I bet half the people still work, including me - average age is actually trending downwards - I think it's 50 now)

Every day during the winter there is a 2 hour slot where people can go down to the courts and play pickleball. You all put your names on a list (grouped by different skill levels), and then play with random players each game for fun, changing every game. Great way to meet people.

(Most people who move to one of these places are looking to make new friends, since most left their old neighborhoods behind).

We just joined the bocce ball club with our neighbors so we play every Tuesday night. Bocce ball always seemed like something really old people did, but I discovered that drinking beer and rolling a ball isn't much different from drinking beer and tossing a beanbag in cornhole, or drinking beer and throwing horseshoes, or... well you get the common denominator here - the point is I get to drink beer on Tuesday.

Water volleyball every weekend. There are tennis courts, and a golf course, of course, but I don't play golf, and I think I'm switching 100% to pickleball instead of tennis. There's talk of starting up a cornhole club and a ping-pong club. There are pool tables, and dart boards in a sports bar area, but that was closed off from covid, but just reopened.

We have a poker tournament every other week, hearts game every other week, bridge, cribbage, euchre, pinochle, etc. That's just organized stuff.

You can obviously play any of those games above any time you want with any new friends.

Plenty of nice trails to walk, pools to relax in, lap pools to exercise in, fitness room. There's a travel club to plan vacations (my wife will love that - it just opened up again). Hiking in the mountains is nearby.

It's too bad I still have to work, and can't do half the stuff I want to.

Still like to work on my Spanish, pick up the guitar again, maybe take some programming classes. Got a few video games and books to catch up on too. :)

Now all that above is just play. I'll want to find something useful to do after I retire as well. Maybe get involved in local politics (volunteer election worker at first), and/or Habitat for Humanity. Maybe teach a class at the local community college. Need to travel to my parents and my kids and spend a full week or two (instead of just a weekend) helping out there.

But we had to move away from our old home to find all a community like this. That's not easy for most people. We don't have grandkids yet, so that made it easier (for now).
Last edited by HomerJ on Mon May 10, 2021 1:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
A Goldman Sachs associate provided a variety of detailed explanations, but then offered a caveat, “If I’m being dead-### honest, though, nobody knows what’s really going on.”
miket29
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by miket29 »

bligh wrote: Thu Apr 22, 2021 4:15 pm I believe JoeRetire is thinking of more self actualized and higher paid positions. Positions, where people have some ability to dictate and control their work environment, or else find themselves another position that does. It is how people mention Warren Buffet hasn't retired and continues to work in his old age.. Why wouldn't he want to continue to work? He has no boss to report to, and complete control over who he works with, what he works on and how much he works on it.

The vast majority of the people are not in that situation.

Agree 100%, and that's why I retired 2 months back. As with I imagine many Bogleheads I'd been developing a retirement plan and hopefully have enough. With the Covid lockdowns I was planning on working for probably the rest of 2021. But at MegaCorp after someone else left they gave me a new assignment I absolutely did not want to do. And if I kept working there was no alternative. They told me on Friday, I sent in my resignation letter that weekend.
EnjoyIt
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Re: What Were Your Regrets after Retiring? (serious question)

Post by EnjoyIt »

changingtimes wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:38 am
leftcoaster wrote: Sun May 09, 2021 9:02 am
Great article indeed, thank you. It jogged my memory of a phrase I first saw attributed to Geraldine Ferraro about three stages of life: learn, earn, return. I do hope learning is a lifelong opportunity, but its purpose may shift toward the support of eulogy activities in the return stage.

This was really timely reading for me as I plan my way out the door of paid work life and into a life of (more) service.
Yes, thanks for the article. I'm sort of struggling with this as the child of parents who expected great things from me, and actually still do. I'm in my early-mid-50s, and I've spent the pandemic working on an unexpected project that became a huge success, and my 87-year-old father is truly proud of what I accomplished. He'll say so, then in the next breath he'll say, "What are you doing for an encore?" I mean, really? I have more money than I'll ever needed (thanks to widowhood) and despite never liking the shackles of working life I have reached a level of success that is plenty enough for me, but I still feel the lifetime of pressure that I need to continue to strive for "more." Which I'm finding in its own way is a far greater barrier to pulling the ER trigger than I would have ever expected, and so I feel like I have to plan a retirement that is full of "accomplishment," even if mostly all I want to do is putter in my garden, at least until something intriguing catches my fancy. But my psyche has long ingrained that "puttering" is something I will have to feel guilty about and defend, not only to my father to perpetually to myself.

Ick.
More. I am struggling with this one. A part of me wants to retire. A part of me wants more. A part of me wants to consider trying something different and a part of me is just lazy and willing to accept status quo. On top of which I too have parents who don’t understand why anyone would ever choose to retire early.
A time to EVALUATE your jitters: | https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=79939&start=400#p5275418
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