When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:19 pm

Conch55 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:16 pm
This! I would not drive a car that old, and would probably replace a vehicle that is say 10 or so years old with newer. I worry that even though the vehicle may be reliable I'll miss out on new safety features.
I have a 2003 vehicle too and am facing a repair issue which might be costly. I don't consider my older vehicle unsafe, I've been driving it since it was new with no problems. Since I'm retired I put about 5000 miles a year on it, mostly around town or trips of 250 miles or shorter. My hesitation with owning new/newer vehicles is my state charges personal property tax on the assessed value of the vehicle which can be substantial. My older model is much more reasonable than a newer equivalent. That will influence my repair/replace decision.
It is often difficult to know whether an expensive repair is a one time issue OR just a sign that the car will have more such expensive repairs down the line. I made that mistake with a recent car - kept putting money into the engine repairs - and the problems never stopped.

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:20 pm

We will soon be facing replacing timing belts on both of our older Camrys. Have not failed yet :)

From almost everything I read, it is almost always worth doing (replace water pump at the same time)

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by TheOscarGuy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:29 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm
Regarding safety issues, two questions:
1. For those of us who have been driving without the latest and greatest safety features for many decades, are they as important for us?
2. Objectively, if you compare "safety" of a mid 1960's car to mid 1990's car - is there more of an improvement than from a mid 1990's car to current? [My seat of the pants guess is that the delta improvement in recent years is less]

DW and I each drive 15-20 model year old Toyota Camrys. I feel very safe, as does my wife.
My last car circa 2006 did not have stability control. I purchased a newer model which does have it. It also had AWD given that we like in Northeast, which again my prior car did not have. These two things I would say were pretty important considerations and were big reason why I upgraded.

Regarding your second question, it is subjective. Some folks put more emphasis on safety upgrades, others don't. How do you compare them? I want the latest safety features, but I also don't want to buy a car more often than every decade. My answer to when should a car be updated based on safety feature may be quite different than someone else..

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by LesBleus** » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:04 pm

I had a 2004 Toyota Rav4 with 187k miles. The engine belt broke which caused other things to break totaling $850 in repairs. Not including a oil leak that's been leaking for some time. It wasn't the last straw to get a newer car but because I have a toddler and I'm driving in the hot a** Houston weather, I just didn't want to take the chance to be broken down in the middle of nowhere.

Got me a 2016 Honda Accord EX-L and loving it :D I think as long as you got your money's worth (in this case my older Rav4) then it's all right about buying something new.

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:06 pm

TheOscarGuy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:29 pm
dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm
Regarding safety issues, two questions:
1. For those of us who have been driving without the latest and greatest safety features for many decades, are they as important for us?
2. Objectively, if you compare "safety" of a mid 1960's car to mid 1990's car - is there more of an improvement than from a mid 1990's car to current? [My seat of the pants guess is that the delta improvement in recent years is less]
DW and I each drive 15-20 model year old Toyota Camrys. I feel very safe, as does my wife.
My last car circa 2006 did not have stability control. I purchased a newer model which does have it. It also had AWD given that we like in Northeast, which again my prior car did not have. These two things I would say were pretty important considerations and were big reason why I upgraded.
Regarding your second question, it is subjective. Some folks put more emphasis on safety upgrades, others don't. How do you compare them? I want the latest safety features, but I also don't want to buy a car more often than every decade. My answer to when should a car be updated based on safety feature may be quite different than someone else..
Of course, a car that is 20 years old (to some degree) may not be as safe as it was when brand new.

I grew up in an area where we got a lot of snow and learned to drive in snowy conditions. I now live where there is less snow -- but we occasionally get some. What I notice, when things get snowy, how many drivers (even with the latest and greatest vehicles) cannot drive in the snow. Even in my older car, I seem to much better than 90% of all the other drivers. In one snowstorm, the street I tried to go down was blocked by a guy trying to back out of his driveway. All he was doing was spinning the tires. As I recall, it was a big, expensive vehicle. I got out of my car and offered to help. I got in the car, slowly engaged the wheels - rocked back and forth - and got the car out.

From observation, I see so many drivers operating their vehicles irresponsibly today. Technology and safety features cannot protect you from all bad driving habits.

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Earl Lemongrab
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Earl Lemongrab » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:12 pm

delamer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:55 pm
First, I would not drive a 15 year old vehicle. There have been too many safety improvements in the intervening years.
Whew! Glad you didn't tell me when the Bronco was 15 years old. Now it's 23, so I don't need to worry.
This week's fortune cookie: "Your financial life will be secure and beneficial." So I got that going for me, which is nice.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by bltn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:40 pm

bloom2708 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:57 am
Do it the old fashioned way. Save some money and when you have enough saved, buy a different car.

A 2003 Pilot probably has served you well.

If the old fashioned way is hard, keep driving it. I see a lot of 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s vehicles on the roads.
I agree with this. Save up for a car, then buy it. Drive your current car until you can afford a newer one. That is, pay cash.
Of course the old fashioned way is hard. Saving takes discipline. But it is worth it.
Paying cash for cars helped us feel in control of our financial life.

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:47 pm

Earl Lemongrab wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:12 pm
delamer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:55 pm
First, I would not drive a 15 year old vehicle. There have been too many safety improvements in the intervening years.
Whew! Glad you didn't tell me when the Bronco was 15 years old. Now it's 23, so I don't need to worry.
:happy

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by delamer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:17 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm
TheOscarGuy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:01 pm
delamer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:55 pm
First, I would not drive a 15 year old vehicle. There have been too many safety improvements in the intervening years.
This! I would not drive a car that old, and would probably replace a vehicle that is say 10 or so years old with newer. I worry that even though the vehicle may be reliable I'll miss out on new safety features.
Regarding safety issues, two questions:
1. For those of us who have been driving without the latest and greatest safety features for many decades, are they as important for us?
2. Objectively, if you compare "safety" of a mid 1960's car to mid 1990's car - is there more of an improvement than from a mid 1990's car to current? [My seat of the pants guess is that the delta improvement in recent years is less]

DW and I each drive 15-20 model year old Toyota Camrys. I feel very safe, as does my wife.
1. I have been drivng for decades and decades too. And I recognize that my reflexes and vision are not as good as they once were. Better safety technology protects me and protects others.

I don’t use technology to replace safe driving; I use it to enhance my good drivng habits.

And, frankly, to protect me against others stupidity.

2. Even if your guess is correct, what’s the significance?

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by TheOscarGuy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:41 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:06 pm

Of course, a car that is 20 years old (to some degree) may not be as safe as it was when brand new.

I grew up in an area where we got a lot of snow and learned to drive in snowy conditions. I now live where there is less snow -- but we occasionally get some. What I notice, when things get snowy, how many drivers (even with the latest and greatest vehicles) cannot drive in the snow. Even in my older car, I seem to much better than 90% of all the other drivers. In one snowstorm, the street I tried to go down was blocked by a guy trying to back out of his driveway. All he was doing was spinning the tires. As I recall, it was a big, expensive vehicle. I got out of my car and offered to help. I got in the car, slowly engaged the wheels - rocked back and forth - and got the car out.

From observation, I see so many drivers operating their vehicles irresponsibly today. Technology and safety features cannot protect you from all bad driving habits.
I am not sure I follow the logic: if there is a decent chance that you would be better off when dealing with bad drivers with better safety features wouldn't you want those features? Having seat belt is better than not having seat belts. Electronic stability is certainly better than not, when dealing with unpredictable drivers. pre-collission braking is certainly better to have than having to respond within a fraction of a second, which even good drivers simply wouldn't be able to do. I could go on.

Having said that, I do agree with you that safety features take longer to make big jumps. They may not be worth to some, but they are to me and my family. That is what I am comfortable doing, and I understand it may be a subjective thing.

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:49 pm

Having said that, I do agree with you that safety features take longer to make big jumps. They may not be worth to some, but they are to me and my family. That is what I am comfortable doing, and I understand it may be a subjective thing.
What I find "interesting" and, on balance, good is that consumers today place a value on auto safety features. As I recall from decades ago, even basic lap seatbelts were not valued or desired by consumers. I recall that my family bought a new 1963 sedan and it did not have seatbelts. BUT - it did have the anchors for the front seat belts and I put them in the car (and used them). I think I recall that my father thought this was nonsense.

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Watty
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Watty » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm

4th and Inches wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:24 pm
Does anybody have reliable information that really quantifies how much safer newer cars are compared to older cars? I hear newer vehicles are safer and believe it, but how much safer are they?

For example we have a 2000 Honda Civic. How would you quantify how much safer a 2019 Civic is compared to a 2000?

It takes a while for real world statistics to become available but a 2002 Civic has a driver death rate of 62 per million registered years.

A 2014 had a rate of 39.

39/62= 60.9% so there is over a 39% reduction in the chance of being killed when driving a Civic.

There are lots of details on how they come up with that number that you can read about here. You can also look up the statistics for other models.

https://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/driver-death-rates

One thing to keep in mind is that is over the life of the car and driving a brand new 2002 Civic in 2002 was likely safer than driving a 16 year old one in 2018.

The advanced safety features are reported to reduce accidents by these percentages in the PDF on the right side of this web page.

https://www.iihs.org/iihs/topics/t/auto ... icoverview
Forward collision warning
27% Front-to-rear crashes
20% Front-to-rear crashes with injuries
9% Claim rates for damage to other vehicles
16% Claim rates for injuries to people in other vehicles

Forward collision warning plus autobrake
50% Front-to-rear crashes
56% Front-to-rear crashes with injuries
13% Claim rates for damage to other vehicles
23% Claim rates for injuries to people in other vehicles

Lane departure warning
11% Single-vehicle, sideswipe and head-on crashes
21% Injury crashes of the same types

Blind spot detection
14% Lane-change crashes
23% Lane-change crashes with injuries
7% Claim rates for damage to other vehicles
8% Claim rates for injuries to people in other vehicles

Rear automatic braking
62% Backing crashes
12% Claim rates for damage to the insured vehicle
30% Claim rates for damage to other vehicles

Rearview cameras
17% Backing crash

Rear cross-traffic alert
22% Backing crashes

In setting insurance rates this is somewhat offset by cars with advanced safety features being more expensive to repair when they are in an accident.

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SeeMoe
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by SeeMoe » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:39 pm

Every three years we dip into our Vanguard investments and use whatever is doing well at the moment to payoff what’s due on the trade-in vehicle. Always make sure the trade-in has its warranty of under 50,000 miles too!

SeeMoe.. :beer
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by monkey_business » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:01 pm

I'd like to point out that safety in newer vehicles isn't just about autonomous features like automatic braking. The actual crash tests have gotten more stringent, and a lot of even slightly older cars do quite poorly.

For example, here are the IIHS crash test results for Camrys, starting from 2003 (15 years old) and going up in various intervals:

2003 Camry: Poor side crash test rating
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2003

2006 Camry: Poor side crash test rating without the optional airbags, Marginal head restraints and seats
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2006

2012 Camry: Poor - small overlap (new test)
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2012

2014 Camry: Acceptable - small overlap
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2014

2016 Camry: Good crash test scores
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2016

Looking at the data and extrapolating, it seems a 15 year old Camry would have Poor ratings in side and small overlap tests. A much newer Camry would not only do far better in the crash tests, but would also potentially avoid, or minimize them altogether.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by delamer » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:16 pm

monkey_business wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:01 pm
I'd like to point out that safety in newer vehicles isn't just about autonomous features like automatic braking. The actual crash tests have gotten more stringent, and a lot of even slightly older cars do quite poorly.

For example, here are the IIHS crash test results for Camrys, starting from 2003 (15 years old) and going up in various intervals:

2003 Camry: Poor side crash test rating
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2003

2006 Camry: Poor side crash test rating without the optional airbags, Marginal head restraints and seats
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2006

2012 Camry: Poor - small overlap (new test)
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2012

2014 Camry: Acceptable - small overlap
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2014

2016 Camry: Good crash test scores
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2016

Looking at the data and extrapolating, it seems a 15 year old Camry would have Poor ratings in side and small overlap tests. A much newer Camry would not only do far better in the crash tests, but would also potentially avoid, or minimize them altogether.
Good point and good information.

My younger kid was spared a concussion (or worse) when a side curtain airbag deployed after a collision. Those airbags weren’t common at the time, but I insisted on a buying a car with them.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Tdubs » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm

Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by randomguy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:58 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:07 pm
TheOscarGuy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:01 pm
delamer wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:55 pm
First, I would not drive a 15 year old vehicle. There have been too many safety improvements in the intervening years.
This! I would not drive a car that old, and would probably replace a vehicle that is say 10 or so years old with newer. I worry that even though the vehicle may be reliable I'll miss out on new safety features.
Regarding safety issues, two questions:
1. For those of us who have been driving without the latest and greatest safety features for many decades, are they as important for us?
2. Objectively, if you compare "safety" of a mid 1960's car to mid 1990's car - is there more of an improvement than from a mid 1990's car to current? [My seat of the pants guess is that the delta improvement in recent years is less]

DW and I each drive 15-20 model year old Toyota Camrys. I feel very safe, as does my wife.
Feelings often have no relation to reality when dealing with safety. A lot of people feel safe in the 1960s tanks but the reality it that they sucked in an accident. Your brain (and pretty much everyoe else) hasn't evolved to figure out what is safe or not when talking about driving at 60mph in 2 ton cars.

1) Obviously not important to you. Otherwise you would have bought a new car. Things like crumple zones and ESC help all drivers though and would reduce your death rate in an accident.

2) If you look the fatality curve the improvement has been a pretty constant percentage. The delta is smaller in absolute terms (i.e. going from 20 to 18 is a 10% improvement or 2 absolute. Now a days it is going from 10 to 9 for the same 10% but only a drop of 1.

You would be much safer in a new car than a 20 year old one. If that safety is worth say 5k to you or not is a different issue. I don't think any car safety systems pay for themselves on a global scale. But as an individual reducing my death rate by 25% is worth 5k to me even if it doesn't make mathematical sense

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by randomguy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:03 pm

Tdubs wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"
Problem is that is a guessing game. Some things are predictable expenses (i.e your need a timing belt every 100k) but you have no way of knowing if you are putting in 1k and will need to put in another 2k in 1000 miles or if you will get 20k of service out. You place your bets and hope things work out.

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 pm

randomguy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:03 pm
Tdubs wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"
Problem is that is a guessing game. Some things are predictable expenses (i.e your need a timing belt every 100k) but you have no way of knowing if you are putting in 1k and will need to put in another 2k in 1000 miles or if you will get 20k of service out. You place your bets and hope things work out.
Yes - but a well informed "bet". :)

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Tdubs » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:11 pm

randomguy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:03 pm
Tdubs wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"
Problem is that is a guessing game. Some things are predictable expenses (i.e your need a timing belt every 100k) but you have no way of knowing if you are putting in 1k and will need to put in another 2k in 1000 miles or if you will get 20k of service out. You place your bets and hope things work out.
Indeed, after your warranty expires, it is all a gamble. You estimate based on mileage, vehicle reliability ratings, general condition, and whether the vehicle has chronic problems that you know will probably return. Then throw the dice.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by 2 bits » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:25 pm

Interesting topic, especially since we will be replacing our older vehicle soon.
In the past I have been as guilty as the next guy about driving with leaky seals and just topping up the fluids.

But can we not be so cavalier about dropping auto fluids on the road? Those fluids land on the road until a rainy day when the petrochemicals go to the storm drains then flow to the lakes. I figure if I don’t want to swim in it I should be careful where it goes.
Understandably it is a complicated issue.
Safe driving.
I sometimes think that I am living the life of which my immigrant ancestors dreamed.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by whodidntante » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:41 pm

I'm a little curious why you wouldn't leave it unlocked and engineer a cheap ignition switch. Is this your first hooptie?

randomguy
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by randomguy » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:54 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:03 pm
Tdubs wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"
Problem is that is a guessing game. Some things are predictable expenses (i.e your need a timing belt every 100k) but you have no way of knowing if you are putting in 1k and will need to put in another 2k in 1000 miles or if you will get 20k of service out. You place your bets and hope things work out.
Yes - but a well informed "bet". :)
It would be interesting to know how informed the bet is:). I have had cars that were going along fine for and then one electrical short (and small fire:)) later it was in the junk yard. Others where I say this is the last 500 I am putting in after a series of repairs which then ran fine for another 3 years. And I always want to know what the repair cost was on the car I gave up at 12 years and then saw driving around for the next 5 years:)

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by naclt » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:18 pm

treypar wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:05 pm
I purchase my cars new and then hold them for ten years. This strategy has worked well for me so far since trade in values have been good. I get benefit of the new technology on the new car and have avoided the major repairs on my old car. I typically purchase Honda or Acura cars.
+1 but I do every 8-9 years. For some reason I have a block on owning a car past 10 years.

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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Dottie57 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:48 pm

Conch55 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:16 pm
This! I would not drive a car that old, and would probably replace a vehicle that is say 10 or so years old with newer. I worry that even though the vehicle may be reliable I'll miss out on new safety features.
I have a 2003 vehicle too and am facing a repair issue which might be costly. I don't consider my older vehicle unsafe, I've been driving it since it was new with no problems. Since I'm retired I put about 5000 miles a year on it, mostly around town or trips of 250 miles or shorter. My hesitation with owning new/newer vehicles is my state charges personal property tax on the assessed value of the vehicle which can be substantial. My older model is much more reasonable than a newer equivalent. That will influence my repair/replace decision.
I understand what you are saying. I bought anew car and the license plate renewal will be quite afew hundreds of dollars. I also paid sales tax on it. The license rate will gradually lessen overtime.

I do think the safety features are really good. I would hate to be without them after 6 months of using them.

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Scott S
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Scott S » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:55 pm

dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 2:06 pm
TheOscarGuy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 1:29 pm
My last car circa 2006 did not have stability control. I purchased a newer model which does have it. It also had AWD given that we like in Northeast, which again my prior car did not have. These two things I would say were pretty important considerations and were big reason why I upgraded.
Regarding your second question, it is subjective. Some folks put more emphasis on safety upgrades, others don't. How do you compare them? I want the latest safety features, but I also don't want to buy a car more often than every decade. My answer to when should a car be updated based on safety feature may be quite different than someone else..
Of course, a car that is 20 years old (to some degree) may not be as safe as it was when brand new.

I grew up in an area where we got a lot of snow and learned to drive in snowy conditions. I now live where there is less snow -- but we occasionally get some. What I notice, when things get snowy, how many drivers (even with the latest and greatest vehicles) cannot drive in the snow. Even in my older car, I seem to much better than 90% of all the other drivers. In one snowstorm, the street I tried to go down was blocked by a guy trying to back out of his driveway. All he was doing was spinning the tires. As I recall, it was a big, expensive vehicle. I got out of my car and offered to help. I got in the car, slowly engaged the wheels - rocked back and forth - and got the car out.

From observation, I see so many drivers operating their vehicles irresponsibly today. Technology and safety features cannot protect you from all bad driving habits.
I shouldn't keep putting my foot in my mouth in car threads, but what the hey -- I can't help but feel that newer cars, with their smoothness and amazing crash safety ratings, lull drivers into forgetting how dangerous it is to operate a 2-ton chunk of metal at 80 MPH, inches away from the cars around them. It seems like drivers used to be more aware that attentive, careful driving was what would keep them safe.
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StealthRabbit
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by StealthRabbit » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:59 pm

$0.10 / mile for repair investments.

Look into overall condition of car (will it keep serving?)

If I spend $1000 in repair, I only need to get another 10k miles out of that repair. (I often get 4-6x that service)

My daily driver is <$0.03/ mile INCLUDING the capital cost of the vehicle.

50 mpg since 1976, no dinosaurs or fossil fuels required...(Free fuel)

I'm not too concerned about vehicle safety, or I would just drive my Kenworth everywhere. And I certainly would not be catting around on my vintage racing motorcycles (Now all street legal). Could be toast tomorrow, :twisted:

No plastic or electronics or ignition systems in my cars and trucks :!: , I feel better with that (more dependable / longer service). :wink:

>3m fleet miles... I've never had to go to a dealer for a recall or service :beer
More time for driving, working, and investing. :moneybag
YMMV.

Park
Posts: 561
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Park » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:03 am

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzela ... a019eb5263

This article from Jan 2017 says a new car is kept on average for 6.5 years. 12.9% of new car buyers keep their car at least one decade.

https://blog.mercuryinsurance.com/auto/ ... y-reasons/

This insurance company website hints that cars more than 6-8 years old have safety issues.

B4Xt3r
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by B4Xt3r » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:35 am

TheAccountant wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 5:20 pm
You need to track your costs per mile and compare that number against what a new car would cost.
+1

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jharkin
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by jharkin » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:57 am

rashad3000 wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:08 pm
treypar wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 2:05 pm
I purchase my cars new and then hold them for ten years. This strategy has worked well for me so far since trade in values have been good. I get benefit of the new technology on the new car and have avoided the major repairs on my old car. I typically purchase Honda or Acura cars.
Many people don't think it makes sense to buy new, but I like your strategy! Maybe I will look at doing this in the near future. Or even buying a 2 year old vehicle, driving it for 8, then selling.
I also follow the drive it for 10 years strategy. Modern cars, if well maintained, still feel nearly new through at least the first 5 years. ... On a Honda or Toyota driven reasonable mileage you can often get though 10 years with nothing more than routine maintenance and then the car still has some resale value.

When I was in my 20s I drove 15-20 year old clunkers... not anymore. Not saying you cant, as a 2003 is much more reliable even at that age than the 1980-1985 models I was driving into the ground as a kid. Just don't want to deal with the frustration anymore.

longleaf
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by longleaf » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:11 am

When will manual transmissions return to full size trucks?

Oh wait, they're trying to install fly-by-wire for clutches now :oops:

If there is no new car that the consumer wants to buy, then the consumer will not buy a new car. When new cars reduce in price and return to something consumers want to buy, consumers may purchase a new car.
Frugality, indexing, time.

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Scott S
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Scott S » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:30 am

Park wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:03 am
https://blog.mercuryinsurance.com/auto/ ... y-reasons/

This insurance company website hints that cars more than 6-8 years old have safety issues.
Not sure how you're getting that. Here's what they actually say:
If you drive a vehicle that is more than six to eight years old, you should be aware that technology has advanced and that newer vehicles are much safer than older vehicles.
My Plan: (Age-10)% in bonds until I reach age 60, 50/50 thereafter. Equity split: 50/50 US/Int'l, Bond split: 50/50 TBM/TIPS.

Texanbybirth
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Texanbybirth » Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:49 am

monkey_business wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:01 pm
I'd like to point out that safety in newer vehicles isn't just about autonomous features like automatic braking. The actual crash tests have gotten more stringent, and a lot of even slightly older cars do quite poorly.

For example, here are the IIHS crash test results for Camrys, starting from 2003 (15 years old) and going up in various intervals:

2003 Camry: Poor side crash test rating
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2003

2006 Camry: Poor side crash test rating without the optional airbags, Marginal head restraints and seats
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2006

2012 Camry: Poor - small overlap (new test)
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2012

2014 Camry: Acceptable - small overlap
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2014

2016 Camry: Good crash test scores
https://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/vehic ... sedan/2016

Looking at the data and extrapolating, it seems a 15 year old Camry would have Poor ratings in side and small overlap tests. A much newer Camry would not only do far better in the crash tests, but would also potentially avoid, or minimize them altogether.
Thank you for this. I try to stay abreast of vehicle safety (for cars in our buying range: Honda, Toyota, Subaru, Ford, etc.), and seeing the side impact score of my previous car (no side-curtain airbags) was why we spent money a little bit ahead of time to get rid of it and upgrade to a 2017 model, an IIHS TSP. :sharebeer

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Watty
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Watty » Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:09 am

randomguy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:54 pm
dm200 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:08 pm
randomguy wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:03 pm
Tdubs wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:33 pm
Thumb rule I use (no idea where I got it): If I think $1,000 buys me 10,000 miles before the next significant repair (exclude the usual consumables), it is worth it. I don't care about the car's trade-in value. The only question I ask of an older vehicle is "how far will it get me before I haul it to the dump?"
Problem is that is a guessing game. Some things are predictable expenses (i.e your need a timing belt every 100k) but you have no way of knowing if you are putting in 1k and will need to put in another 2k in 1000 miles or if you will get 20k of service out. You place your bets and hope things work out.
Yes - but a well informed "bet". :)
It would be interesting to know how informed the bet is:). I have had cars that were going along fine for and then one electrical short (and small fire:)) later it was in the junk yard. Others where I say this is the last 500 I am putting in after a series of repairs which then ran fine for another 3 years. And I always want to know what the repair cost was on the car I gave up at 12 years and then saw driving around for the next 5 years:)
One thing to also consider if you keep a car until it dies is that you may have a limited time to find a replacement car and that can cost you a lot compared to having 6 months or a year to shop for a car when you are in no hurry buy a replacement car.

MandyT
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by MandyT » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:30 pm

Watty wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 10:09 am
One thing to also consider if you keep a car until it dies is that you may have a limited time to find a replacement car and that can cost you a lot compared to having 6 months or a year to shop for a car when you are in no hurry buy a replacement car.
This is an excellent point. I have tended to drive my cars until the end of their useful lives (which might be somewhat less than an adept "car-person" might get, but always well over 100,000 miles). I decided to take a slightly different tack with my 2004 Nissan Sentra with 170,000 miles which was just starting to act flaky. I researched options in the spring and summer of 2017 and ended up trading in my Nissan in August 2017. Perhaps I could have gotten some more usage out of it, but I'm very happy with its replacement and, while I'm sure I didn't make a killing, I feel like I got a pretty good deal. The lack of urgency reduced the stress factor a lot.

LiterallyIronic
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by LiterallyIronic » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:09 pm

As a fellow driver of clunkers (I'm driving a 2001 Dodge Stratus and my wife (and toddler) drive around in a 2001 Toyota Corolla), I drive them until they stop functioning. When it stops being able to drive, I will tow it to my mechanic and get an estimate for making it drive again. If it's under $1,000, I'll do it without a second thought. If it's more, then I ask my mechanic how long he thinks the car will run after making this particular repair. For example, I wouldn't want to do an expensive repair if he thinks the transmissions going to go out in six months anyway.

If it's not a fix that's required to make the vehicle drive (or required by law), I don't do it. Horn is broken? Fine. Radio is broken? Fine. Window won't roll down? Fine. Engine leaking oil everywhere? Fix it. Eventually it dies. Then we get by on one vehicle for a few days while I pick out a new clunker on Craigslist.
MathWizard wrote:
Sun Oct 14, 2018 4:20 pm
I do have a 15 yr old car that I drive locally, but just traded up to a 2 year old car that we use for long trips.
Long drives are always my concern, too. Before each one, we always get our car looked at by my mechanic and see if he'd be confident in driving it 1,500 miles roundtrip (and fix his concerns, if any, at that point).

badger42
Posts: 285
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by badger42 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 1:25 pm

For us, it's about dispatch reliability, not time, miles or dollars.

If we can reasonably count on the car to reliably do what we ask of it, we will keep it.

If we have too many reliability / maintenance headaches outside of normal wear items (tires and batteries and brake pads and the like don't count, cosmetic issues don't count, things that can easily and safely wait for the next scheduled service don't count), especially of the type that could strand you / prevent a trip, we replace a vehicle.

If there are safety issues that are not worth fixing from a $$ POV, we replace the vehicle.

We're probably more relaxed than we would be if we actually counted on the vehicle for commuting. My wife stays home, and I mostly commute via train (and could easily take an Uber for the few non-train commutes). We can also walk to most necessities (e.g. grocery, drug store, etc)

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dm200
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by dm200 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 pm

Long trip breakdowns are not restricted to older vehicles. This can happen with even a new vehicle.

badger42
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by badger42 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:26 pm

dm200 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:21 pm
Long trip breakdowns are not restricted to older vehicles. This can happen with even a new vehicle.
In my (admittedly small sample size) experience, long trip breakdowns are also quite rare. It makes sense though - stop/go traffic is much harder on the vehicle than highway cruise. Doubly so if you check the basics (fluids, tires, etc) before you leave.

I think the best "bang for the buck" on dispatch reliability that we do (beyond the basics) is replacing batteries every 5 years, instead of waiting for them to die.

rashad3000
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by rashad3000 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:43 am

Very very good feedback!! Highly valuable!

Nova1967
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Re: When to stop putting money into an older vehicle

Post by Nova1967 » Mon Oct 22, 2018 8:52 am

I am sure there is other criteria for getting rid of a car but from my personal experience the best time to get rid of a car is when it starts to overheat.

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