Tesla S

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Yukon
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Yukon » Thu Oct 06, 2016 4:51 am

researcher- Have you ever driven a Tesla?
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Kevin M
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Thu Oct 06, 2016 10:33 am

Leif wrote:I've decided to go ahead to buy a Model S.
Congrats! You're going to love it.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Thu Oct 06, 2016 11:57 am

TomatoTomahto wrote: I manually steered about 20 minutes of the 3 hours.
Any red hands of shame?

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:34 pm

harikaried wrote: Others might find the ability to always leave the house will a "full tank of gas" and not need to spend time going to the gas station as quite valuable. An average driver would drive 12k miles a year, so if we say an average of 25 miles per gallon for 480 gallons a year, and filling up 10 gallons at a time for 48 gas station refueling visits a year, and estimating 10 minutes of detour/queue/refuel means 8 hours saved a year. Some people might value that time saved while others enjoy stopping by the gas station.
.
To be fair you you need to factor in the 60s to plug in/unplug your car everything you park at home. At lot of those 8 hours will go away. And of course you don't need to fill up every 10 gallons. Something like 15-20 (s-class has a 21 gallon tank) would cut your 8 hours down a decent amount. I doubt you are actually saving anytime over a year. You might like the distribution of time better. Now when the induction/auto charger comes alone, your logic will work better.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Oct 06, 2016 1:52 pm

randomguy wrote:
harikaried wrote: Others might find the ability to always leave the house will a "full tank of gas" and not need to spend time going to the gas station as quite valuable. An average driver would drive 12k miles a year, so if we say an average of 25 miles per gallon for 480 gallons a year, and filling up 10 gallons at a time for 48 gas station refueling visits a year, and estimating 10 minutes of detour/queue/refuel means 8 hours saved a year. Some people might value that time saved while others enjoy stopping by the gas station.
.
To be fair you you need to factor in the 60s to plug in/unplug your car everything you park at home. At lot of those 8 hours will go away. And of course you don't need to fill up every 10 gallons. Something like 15-20 (s-class has a 21 gallon tank) would cut your 8 hours down a decent amount. I doubt you are actually saving anytime over a year. You might like the distribution of time better. Now when the induction/auto charger comes alone, your logic will work better.
60s to plug in? Am I blindfolded? The cable is by the charger port. I'm in my 60s and slow, so maybe it takes me 5s additional on my walk from my driver's door to the house, but only because I do it left-handed. :oops:

My wife has an ICE. It's a sufficient PITA that I get brownie points whenever I take her car to fill up as a kindness.

You have your mind made up. Having spent 6 months not going to a gas station (other than for my wife), I think you underestimate the advantages of no gas, no oil, almost-forever brakes, no anti-freeze, etc.

As the bear said to the hunter, this isn't about Tesla is it?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:12 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
randomguy wrote:
harikaried wrote: Others might find the ability to always leave the house will a "full tank of gas" and not need to spend time going to the gas station as quite valuable. An average driver would drive 12k miles a year, so if we say an average of 25 miles per gallon for 480 gallons a year, and filling up 10 gallons at a time for 48 gas station refueling visits a year, and estimating 10 minutes of detour/queue/refuel means 8 hours saved a year. Some people might value that time saved while others enjoy stopping by the gas station.
.
To be fair you you need to factor in the 60s to plug in/unplug your car everything you park at home. At lot of those 8 hours will go away. And of course you don't need to fill up every 10 gallons. Something like 15-20 (s-class has a 21 gallon tank) would cut your 8 hours down a decent amount. I doubt you are actually saving anytime over a year. You might like the distribution of time better. Now when the induction/auto charger comes alone, your logic will work better.
60s to plug in? Am I blindfolded? The cable is by the charger port. I'm in my 60s and slow, so maybe it takes me 5s additional on my walk from my driver's door to the house, but only because I do it left-handed. :oops:

My wife has an ICE. It's a sufficient PITA that I get brownie points whenever I take her car to fill up as a kindness.

You have your mind made up. Having spent 6 months not going to a gas station (other than for my wife), I think you underestimate the advantages of no gas, no oil, almost-forever brakes, no anti-freeze, etc.

As the bear said to the hunter, this isn't about Tesla is it?
You are orders of magnitude faster than every other Tesla owner I have met.:) But lets say it is 10s every time you drive (5s in+5s out) and you do 2 drives per day. 2*10*365/60/60= 4 hours. That is pretty close the gas time (I fill up 15-20 gallons in 6-8 mins every time I measure it(station turn in to station out). 12km/year/25mpg/15 gallons/fillup*7min/fillup= 107 min). Obviously you could save time by not charging after every drive, but I have yet to meet a tesla owner that does that.

Teslas are awesome. But the owners make up some BS reasons justify them. You aren't saving time, having cheaper service (MB wants 1875 for 4 years of service, tesla wants 2100. ), having a more reliable car (in theory it should be. In reality the decades of experience that companies like Toyota have allow them to make much more reliable cars. Will have to see if Tesla catches up), and a zillion other things. You do have a really nice luxury sedan. If I was buying a 90k car it would be number one on my list. But I wouldn't be blind to all the downsides. And yes it is incredible they way Tesla has been able to expand the luxury market where you have people that have been happy driving <50k dollar cars are willing to pay 2x as much for a new tech toy.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Oct 06, 2016 2:25 pm

You are orders of magnitude faster than every other Tesla owner I have met.
That can't be! Are they taking the cable out of the trunk, plugging it into the outlet, closing the trunk, and plugging the cable into the car? In that case, maybe yes, but why?

I have my cable a foot or two from the port. How long can it take even an old man to move his hand a foot or two? I don't charge every day, and only twice in a day if I've taken a long trip. I charge to 225 miles of range, so it isn't necessary to charge every night.

Anyway, this is getting tiresome. I'm happy with owning a Tesla, you're happy with not owning a Tesla. Let's agree to disagree.
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Kevin M
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Thu Oct 06, 2016 6:03 pm

randomguy wrote:And yes it is incredible they way Tesla has been able to expand the luxury market where you have people that have been happy driving <50k dollar cars are willing to pay 2x as much for a new tech toy.
Or in my case, more than 5X. And if I end up buying a P100D, more than 7X ;-)

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squirm
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Re: Tesla S

Post by squirm » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:28 am



Teslas are awesome. But the owners make up some BS reasons justify them. You aren't saving time, having cheaper service (MB wants 1875 for 4 years of service, tesla wants 2100. ), having a more reliable car (in theory it should be. In reality the decades of experience that companies like Toyota have allow them to make much more reliable cars. Will have to see if Tesla catches up), and a zillion other things. You do have a really nice luxury sedan. If I was buying a 90k car it would be number one on my list. But I wouldn't be blind to all the downsides. And yes it is incredible they way Tesla has been able to expand the luxury market where you have people that have been happy driving <50k dollar cars are willing to pay 2x as much for a new tech toy.
So what is wrong with buying a Tesla? I think that they operate free of using oil is pretty incredible, and worthy for many who Can afford it. Beats buying a other expensive luxury cars that still go from point A to point B powered with using the same old dirty basic ingredients.

Other auto manufactures have had decades to refine their manufacturing process, how long has tesla been in existence....

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Re: Tesla S

Post by researcher » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:08 pm

squirm wrote:
Teslas are awesome. But the owners make up some BS reasons justify them.
You aren't saving time, having cheaper service (MB wants 1875 for 4 years of service, tesla wants 2100. ), having a more reliable car.
You do have a really nice luxury sedan. If I was buying a 90k car it would be number one on my list.
But I wouldn't be blind to all the downsides.
So what is wrong with buying a Tesla? I think that they operate free of using oil is pretty incredible, and worthy for many who Can afford it. Beats buying a other expensive luxury cars that still go from point A to point B powered with using the same old dirty basic ingredients.

Other auto manufactures have had decades to refine their manufacturing process, how long has tesla been in existence....
There isn't anything wrong with buying a Tesla. In fact, squirm says Teslas are awesome, and he would consider one if he were in the market for an expensive luxury sedan. I don't think he, or anyone else, would disagree with most of what you said about Tesla.

However, squirm is pointing out that owners make up BS reasons to explain away deficiencies and are blind to the downsides.
Here is a sampling of some of these downsides, and the rationale/excuses given to dismiss these negative issues...

Rapid, hammering noise, milling noise, slight clunking, made clanking sounds over speed bumps, rattles and squeaks in my car, air leak in the driver window, which resulted in the replacement of several major components (drive units, axles, ect) and lengthy stays in the service center.
- Their response… “The car has been essentially flawless.” It’s a good thing all of this stuff keeps breaking, because I get new parts installed.

Waiting a full month, twice, just to get an appointment to have your brand new $100K car fixed.
- Their response…”no big deal.”

Given a crappy, used $20K Prius for a week while your $100K Tesla is being worked on for the second time to correct the same problem.
- Their response…”no big deal.” “I think it’s pretty cool.” “I actually viewed these experiences as kind of interesting.” “I'd be happy to try out non-Tesla loaners.”

I think Teslas are incredible cars. But come on!
Is there any other product someone would spend upwards of $120K and simply dismiss problems in this manner? How many people...
- Would not be troubled after experiencing a host of problems in a vehicle within the first few thousand miles?
- Think it is acceptable to wait a full month just to get an appointment to fix a defect in a brand new $100K item?
- Welcome the idea of driving a $20K used rental/loaner car while their new luxury sedan is in the shop for multiple days on multiple occasions?

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Re: Tesla S

Post by sandramjet » Fri Oct 07, 2016 1:53 pm

No offense intended here, but this sure seems like this is getting repetitive. Ok, so some people are willing to put with more issues than others. Some people can't understand that. Great. I get that. This thread used to be reasonably interesting about Teslas, so can we move onto other issues? For example, one question I have is how many places on the road (other using SC stations) do people find they can charge their Teslas? For example, hotels, shopping centers, etc. I see offer charging for Leafs, etc... how about for Teslas?

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:35 pm

sandramjet wrote:No offense intended here, but this sure seems like this is getting repetitive. Ok, so some people are willing to put with more issues than others. Some people can't understand that. Great. I get that. This thread used to be reasonably interesting about Teslas, so can we move onto other issues? For example, one question I have is how many places on the road (other using SC stations) do people find they can charge their Teslas? For example, hotels, shopping centers, etc. I see offer charging for Leafs, etc... how about for Teslas?
That's a good question. Speaking for myself, I'm not tempted to use any other chargers (with one exception that I'll mention in a minute). Superchargers are so damn fast that, if I needed a charge, I'd go a little out of my way to reach one. A hotel in New Haven that we stay at has a destination charger, and maybe next time I'll use it, but there's also a Supercharger just a ways down the road.

In my immediate vicinity, we have chargers (mostly free) at the zoo, Shoprite, some train stations, shopping centers, etc. To date, I've left them for people with smaller batteries (LEAF, eGolf, etc) to use as it seems selfish unless I were desperate for electrons.

The one exception is that if I were going cross country, I might consider buying a chaDEmo adapter. Iirc, they cost $450, but the advantage is that, like SC, they stay as DC chargers, without the AC-DC step. They're not as fast as Superchargers, but they're not shabby either. I hear that some Superchargers on the west coast can get crowded, but I'm more likely to be ICEd out than to have to wait for a Tesla to finish up. On the east coast, I can pop in for a quick charge, take care of my bio needs, and move on.

In more that 1/2 year, I've charged at home or (much less often) at a Supercharger. I did get a ChargePoint card, just in case.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:37 pm

I forgot to address one of your questions. The Tesla comes with a mobile charger cable and various adapters. It can charge wherever a LEAF can charge, it's just gruesomely slow compared to a Supercharger or chaDEmo.
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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:55 pm

sandramjet wrote:No offense intended here, but this sure seems like this is getting repetitive.
...
This thread used to be reasonably interesting about Teslas, so can we move onto other issues?
+1

I've been looking at non-Supercharger options. Mostly at destination locations like malls or restaurants. It seems to be a quite a mix. Free, almost free, and paid. By almost free I mean free but you need to either eat or stay there. The paid seems to be part of some national chain that requires membership. I would probably not use those unless on a long trip. The free and almost free I may use if I planned to stay there for awhile (such as a mall or movie theater). Some out-of-the-way locations offer to provide a 110V. They take forever to charge a Tesla, but overnight that could help. Such as a 3-4 day trip to mountains in which you plan to drive around in that area. Just don't forget the mobile charger. Anyone have some experience with this?

Anyone ever hit an unexpected condition, like strong headwinds, and ran out of juice? What happens then? Can you call Tesla's roadside service to bail you out? Not like adding a gallon of gasoline to get you going.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:11 pm

Leif wrote: Anyone ever hit an unexpected condition, like strong headwinds, and ran out of juice? What happens then? Can you call Tesla's roadside service to bail you out? Not like adding a gallon of gasoline to get you going.
Tesla Roadside Assistance will provide you one courtesy tow for running out of juice. After that, towing like any other car that gets towed b/c it ran out of fuel. However, you plug in, even on 120v and get enough to limp somewhere. Personally, I already had AAA for my ICE, so I just keep renewing it. With 200 mile towing (I already had that b/c of my road trips into the mountains in the 4Runner), I can get to a charger (Supercharger or otherwise). AAA even has a service to charge EVs from the side of the road, but I don't know the details.

As to whether you can find chargers, check out PlugShare.com. There are thousands of chargers throughout the US. But as Tomato said, you want to prefer the Tesla Superchargers (included in the cost of the car current for unlimited use on road trips) since they are MUCH faster. Going to even a CHAdeMO charger will be at least an hour and most J1772 public chargers would take you hours. Still, I use a ChargePoint 30a 200v charger at work without issue.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Oct 07, 2016 9:31 pm

Leif wrote:Anyone ever hit an unexpected condition, like strong headwinds, and ran out of juice? What happens then? Can you call Tesla's roadside service to bail you out? Not like adding a gallon of gasoline to get you going.
One time, we let a realtor take us around CT looking at houses. I guess he had scheduled appointments in some bizarre way, and we criss-crossed the state and back. Now I would have enough faith in the trip planning software to realize we could have made it home, but I took a detour to the Greenwich Supercharger and charged for 15 minutes.

I'm learning that rain, wind, and hills have an effect. The big thief, as in ICE cars, is speed and acceleration. I get many more miles/kWh when I'm on autopilot.
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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:28 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:The big thief, as in ICE cars, is speed and acceleration.
If what I've read is correct then yes, speed has a really big impact due to increased air resistance. That is why the car drag coefficient is so important. I've also read that acceleration has a relatively minor effect on range.
There’s a complementary question that many Model S owners ask: Does hard acceleration have a significant impact on range? Unless you are trying to be a Formula 1 driver, the answer is “not really.” The efficiency map for the motor is relatively flat across the rev and power range. Accelerating hard will use more energy, but not that much.

Howe,Nick (2016-09-05). Owning Model S: The Definitive Guide for Buying and Owning the Tesla Model S (Kindle Locations 728-730). EVANNEX. Kindle Edition.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Oct 08, 2016 9:44 am

Leif wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:The big thief, as in ICE cars, is speed and acceleration.
If what I've read is correct then yes, speed has a really big impact due to increased air resistance. That is why the car drag coefficient is so important. I've also read that acceleration has a relatively minor effect on range.
Generally speaking, put the destination in the Nav and when it projects a battery level less than your comfort zone (for me, that is 7%), slow down 5 mph for at least 30 minutes. That usually gives you about a 3% increase in the projected battery range, sometimes more, sometimes less. If you are still uncomfortable, go down another 5 mph for 30 minutes.

The EPA rating on my Model S to get 265 rated miles on a full charge is 300 Wh/mi. In normal driving, I do 330 Wh/mi because of traffic and hills around town, especially right in my neighborhood. Most of the time for my trips over 200 miles (typically a trip where I'm going somewhere round-trip without a charge - like river tubing for the day that is 250 miles round trip), I can beat that estimate and doing 60-65 mph. But much of that is because of the typography around me. Once you have your vehicle for a few weeks, you will get a feel for what to expect.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Sat Oct 08, 2016 11:55 am

BrandonBogle wrote: Tesla Roadside Assistance will provide you one courtesy tow for running out of juice.
Good to know, just in case. The 60 is probably the Boglehead choice, if Bogleheads were to buy a Tesla. I'm planning to order a 90D. I wish they offered just a 90. I don't need the AWD, which adds about $5,000. My daily commute is around 75 miles, but I just would feel more comfortable with the higher range. EPA range is 294. I think I saw somewhere the MPGe is over 100.

My next choice is on the home recharging. I probably need to go with the TOU (Time Of Use) plan. The rate is higher during the day then my current tiered plan. So if I did not charge the car my rates would go up. But with their less expensive night time rates their calculator claims this will save me money, I don't fully trust their calculator since it should the residential use cost the same. I don't think that is correct, at least for me. I'm about 1/2 through the second tier, and none in the third tier. With higher rates my residential cost has to go up. I even had them send me a audit. That should take my personal use into account. It says the same.

I may bite the bullet for one month and stay on the standard tier plan. Then switch to the TOU plan and see if I'm saving. Unfortunately no charging at work so most of my charging will be at home.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by squirm » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:22 pm

Leif wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote: Tesla Roadside Assistance will provide you one courtesy tow for running out of juice.
Good to know, just in case. The 60 is probably the Boglehead choice, if Bogleheads were to buy a Tesla. I'm planning to order a 90D. I wish they offered just a 90. I don't need the AWD, which adds about $5,000. My daily commute is around 75 miles, but I just would feel more comfortable with the higher range. EPA range is 294. I think I saw somewhere the MPGe is over 100.

My next choice is on the home recharging. I probably need to go with the TOU (Time Of Use) plan. The rate is higher during the day then my current tiered plan. So if I did not charge the car my rates would go up. But with their less expensive night time rates their calculator claims this will save me money, I don't fully trust their calculator since it should the residential use cost the same. I don't think that is correct, at least for me. I'm about 1/2 through the second tier, and none in the third tier. With higher rates my residential cost has to go up. I even had them send me a audit. That should take my personal use into account. It says the same.

I may bite the bullet for one month and stay on the standard tier plan. Then switch to the TOU plan and see if I'm saving. Unfortunately no charging at work so most of my charging will be at home.
I believe Tesla locks the 60kwh battery at the top, so you can charge to 100%. Basically they use the 75kwh battery and software lock it from topping off. You should also get faster supercharging times all the way to 100%.

The best recent TOU plan from PGE was retired in May, the E6 Rate. Ev6 is the newer schedule, it's not as advantageous as the older rate.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by squirm » Sat Oct 08, 2016 12:32 pm

researcher wrote:
squirm wrote:
Teslas are awesome. But the owners make up some BS reasons justify them.
You aren't saving time, having cheaper service (MB wants 1875 for 4 years of service, tesla wants 2100. ), having a more reliable car.
You do have a really nice luxury sedan. If I was buying a 90k car it would be number one on my list.
But I wouldn't be blind to all the downsides.
So what is wrong with buying a Tesla? I think that they operate free of using oil is pretty incredible, and worthy for many who Can afford it. Beats buying a other expensive luxury cars that still go from point A to point B powered with using the same old dirty basic ingredients.

Other auto manufactures have had decades to refine their manufacturing process, how long has tesla been in existence....
There isn't anything wrong with buying a Tesla. In fact, squirm says Teslas are awesome, and he would consider one if he were in the market for an expensive luxury sedan. I don't think he, or anyone else, would disagree with most of what you said about Tesla.

However, squirm is pointing out that owners make up BS reasons to explain away deficiencies and are blind to the downsides.
Here is a sampling of some of these downsides, and the rationale/excuses given to dismiss these negative issues...

Rapid, hammering noise, milling noise, slight clunking, made clanking sounds over speed bumps, rattles and squeaks in my car, air leak in the driver window, which resulted in the replacement of several major components (drive units, axles, ect) and lengthy stays in the service center.
- Their response… “The car has been essentially flawless.” It’s a good thing all of this stuff keeps breaking, because I get new parts installed.

Waiting a full month, twice, just to get an appointment to have your brand new $100K car fixed.
- Their response…”no big deal.”

Given a crappy, used $20K Prius for a week while your $100K Tesla is being worked on for the second time to correct the same problem.
- Their response…”no big deal.” “I think it’s pretty cool.” “I actually viewed these experiences as kind of interesting.” “I'd be happy to try out non-Tesla loaners.”

I think Teslas are incredible cars. But come on!
Is there any other product someone would spend upwards of $120K and simply dismiss problems in this manner? How many people...
- Would not be troubled after experiencing a host of problems in a vehicle within the first few thousand miles?
- Think it is acceptable to wait a full month just to get an appointment to fix a defect in a brand new $100K item?
- Welcome the idea of driving a $20K used rental/loaner car while their new luxury sedan is in the shop for multiple days on multiple occasions?
Your points are well received and I stand corrected. I should have read the thread more careful.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Sat Oct 08, 2016 1:17 pm

squirm wrote: I believe Tesla locks the 60kwh battery at the top, so you can charge to 100%. Basically they use the 75kwh battery and software lock it from topping off. You should also get faster supercharging times all the way to 100%.
You're correct. They are probably attracting some model 3 orders with that trim (66K entry before tax incentives). I was thinking to get the 60 with a 2 year lease. However, the 2 year went away so I reconsidered the car I wanted for a longer term along with tax issues.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Sat Oct 08, 2016 2:06 pm

sandramjet wrote:For example, one question I have is how many places on the road (other using SC stations) do people find they can charge their Teslas? For example, hotels, shopping centers, etc. I see offer charging for Leafs, etc... how about for Teslas?
On trips we use SCs almost exclusively. Sometimes a hotel we're staying at will have a destination charger (either Tesla or J1772), and we'll take advantage of that. Our local library, a few blocks away, has free J1772 chargers, which I plugged into once for a couple of hours just for fun.

On one trip we stayed in a house for three nights, and I just plugged into the external 120V outlet while parked. That added enough juice to more than cover the local driving we did while there.

Before SCs, Tesla drivers used 240V outlets at RV parks quite a bit, or so I gather, but I have yet to do that.

With our driving patterns, I just haven't had the need to use non-SC chargers on trips. More adventurous types will need to use some of the other options, but more SCs are coming online all the time, making this less and less of an issue.

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timmy
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Re: Tesla S

Post by timmy » Sun Oct 09, 2016 7:47 am

I haven't read through all 18 pages of this thread. For those interested in electric cars, this is interesting. Mr Money Mustache is a popular (and controversial to some on this site) blogger. He is always thoughtful.

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/10/ ... ctric-car/ (HE BOUGHT A NISSAN LEAF)

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/the-niss ... xperiment/

http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2016/04/ ... road-trip/

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Re: Tesla S

Post by squirm » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:01 am

sandramjet wrote:No offense intended here, but this sure seems like this is getting repetitive. Ok, so some people are willing to put with more issues than others. Some people can't understand that. Great. I get that. This thread used to be reasonably interesting about Teslas, so can we move onto other issues? For example, one question I have is how many places on the road (other using SC stations) do people find they can charge their Teslas? For example, hotels, shopping centers, etc. I see offer charging for Leafs, etc... how about for Teslas?
For road trips, the non super chargers are too slow. You would have to plan well ahead, such as a stay over or at least a few hours of something else. In addition (IMO) you can't trust the other charging methods either. They could be ICED, not work or have some other issue. Tesla continues to improve the charge rate too, under the right conditions and with the correct battery pack, you can get up to a 120kw rate.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:24 pm

squirm wrote: The best recent TOU plan from PGE was retired in May, the E6 Rate. Ev6 is the newer schedule, it's not as advantageous as the older rate.
My electric company offers four TOU plans. One plan is just a separate meter for EV charging, so you are running two meters. That would probably be best, the company even gives you the meter, if it were not for the cost of installation.

The other three TOU plans involve various time rates and additional daily rates. Plus some daily credits based on our allocation. It is very confusing. They say one plan is good if you use is < 700 kWh/mo. Another plan is suppose to be better if you use > 700 kWh. The third plan is suppose to be better if you have a solar roof installed.

I asked them to give me an analysis, which I just received. Unfortunately, it is almost useless. It compares my current tier rate plan to the EV plan (separate meter) and a TOU plan. Unfortunately they don't say which TOU of the three plans they used in their analysis.

Since they have my hourly use for the last several years it would have been helpful if they just told me the yearly cost of my current tiered plan, vs. TOU A, TOU B, and TOU C. Then I could add my estimated 5,000 kWh/year usage to each plan to compare (assuming I did nothing to time shift usage). Except, of course, for the tiered plan, which would kick me into higher rate tiers. But, I assume that one will be the worst in any case.

If I tried to do the analysis I would need to download a spreadsheet for each day to get the hourly usage, Then apply that the rates for each plan. That sounds like far too much work.

Anyone have a solution?

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Sun Oct 09, 2016 6:09 pm

Not a solution, but my utility (in NJ) suggested waiting until after AC season. I have to admit, even in April (i.e., before AC), I didn't notice much difference in my electric costs, perhaps because we overuse electric. I decided to ignore TOU metering. I should track it, but finger-in-the-air, I doubt I use more than 40kwh per week in home charging (ignoring Superchargers).
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Sun Oct 09, 2016 10:16 pm

I'm guessing 15,000 miles/year and 3 miles/kWh. That is how I came up with 5,000 kWh/year. Probably more then I will use. 3 miles/kWh is another guess, but probably not too far off based on some info I've read.

I'm going to see if my utility is capable of providing additional info. If not instead of looking at detailed daily history I'll test it on an ongoing basis. I will just record my kWh usage for a month (I think the car gives you that info for the car?). Also determine the cost by checking my hourly usage and break that down to On peak, Off peak, and Super Off peak and using the rates for those periods compared to the actual tiered cost.

Doing an analysis of my past monthly usage with projected EV usage, the average is 825 kWh/month. It is looking like perhaps the > 700 kWh/month TOU plan is best for me. Particularly in the summer months (June - September).

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:52 am

For Tesla MS owners, that have "upgraded" to release 8, what do you think?

I watched a YouTube video by KmanAuto. He has had a Tesla for several years. I feel at certainly parts of his video he was almost in tears at the release 8 "downgrade". Since I don't have any experience it will be all new to me. It will be my baseline.

TESLA: Firmware 8: Flaws, Bugs & My Final Opinions

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Oct 11, 2016 1:27 pm

harikaried wrote:
Jack FFR1846 wrote:I'll stick with my Subarus, I guess and be happy when I make my 720 mile trip with one stop for gas/food/bathroom (done this trip many times)....and back on the highway in under 15 minutes.
How many times in a year would you be making this trip? If you value the ability to make the 700 mile trip without stopping for an hour and the other benefits you could get from a Tesla aren't relevant, then that would make sense why a different vehicle of similar value would be more appropriate for you.

Others might find the ability to always leave the house will a "full tank of gas" and not need to spend time going to the gas station as quite valuable. An average driver would drive 12k miles a year, so if we say an average of 25 miles per gallon for 480 gallons a year, and filling up 10 gallons at a time for 48 gas station refueling visits a year, and estimating 10 minutes of detour/queue/refuel means 8 hours saved a year. Some people might value that time saved while others enjoy stopping by the gas station.

Some people might value other benefits of the electric motor system that's smaller and simpler allowing for more cargo/passenger space, better safety/crumple zone, lack of emissions, fewer moving parts / fluids / oils to maintain, less noise / rumbling / idling.

Tesla in particular seems to focus on providing superior technology to the passenger over what other similarly priced vehicles might provide. Some people value the ability to get over-the-air updates without needing to buy a new vehicle for the latest software. Others might value the ability to offload the tedium of driving in traffic or highways to the vehicle.

Basically, different people have different priorities that may or may not align with what's provided for a given vehicle. Some people really like Teslas because they provide much more value than their cost, so even if there's some negative aspect, the positives can still be significantly better.

Few times a year. Depends on where a customer needs me.

If I could have a gas pump in my garage, I'd match the fueling times a Tesla owner sees. But I don't. I also don't have a supercharger, so I guess either way, I'd need some professional installation.
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Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:05 pm

I'm waiting for Tesla to adopt the Witricity wireless car charging system where you simply drive into the garage and the car charges without you having to do anything
There is a company, whose name escapes me at the moment but that pops up on FB for EV owners all the time, that has a "drive over" interface for wireless charging. They say that there is a -10-15% inefficiency in the process. Because of the back and forth of "how long does it take to plug in a Tesla," I timed it, and while holding a bag of groceries in my dominant right hand, it took me 2 seconds. Even if you gave me the wireless charger for free, and it's not close to free, I wouldn't pay even a 5% penalty for wireless. IMO, this is a solution in search if a problem.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:00 pm

Leif wrote:For Tesla MS owners, that have "upgraded" to release 8, what do you think?
I had a great car before the update, and I have a great car after the update. I haven't found that it has made much difference either way in my driving experience.

I was hoping for more spectacular improvements in autosteer. It's still excellent on freeways and highways, but still doesn't work good enough on really winding roads for me to use it much on those. Other people seem to have noticed more improvements than I have. Maybe a little more solid at staying centered in the lane--maybe fewer times that I take control because I don't like how close it is to a truck I'm passing.

Regen braking is stronger, and I notice it a little bit. I like stronger regen braking.

It's interesting to note that AP can "see" the car in front of the car in front of you (as visualized in the instrument cluster display), due to bouncing the radar under the car in front, but I haven't been in any situations yet where that seemed to have mattered (a good thing).

TACC (traffic aware cruise control) braking is a bit smoother when slowing for the car in front of you, but I haven't driven enough yet in stop and go traffic to see how much it really reduces the stopping that is more aggressive than I like (using the brakes more than I do when driving manually).

As far as the UI changes, I'm kind of neutral. I kind of like the media UI changes, but others hate them. I'm pretty neutral on the main console map UI changes, but others hate them. Someone walked up to me at a supercharger and mentioned that he couldn't figure out how to bring up the list of superchargers after the update, so I told him how to do it. Like any UI change on a computer or phone, it takes a bit of study and practice to get used to.
Leif wrote:I watched a YouTube video by KmanAuto. He has had a Tesla for several years. I feel at certainly parts of his video he was almost in tears at the release 8 "downgrade". Since I don't have any experience it will be all new to me. It will be my baseline.

TESLA: Firmware 8: Flaws, Bugs & My Final Opinions
I watched a few minutes, but the information density was too low to watch more. If you want to summarize his complaints, I'm glad to give you my perspective on them.

I saw that he was getting into a rant about the advertised feature of taking a freeway exit when you activate the turn signal indicator was not in the release, but I got bored before listening to much of it. I noticed that it wasn't mentioned in the release notes, so figured they decided to pull it from 8.0. I tried it just to be sure, and verified that it did not work. Oh well, I guess we just have to wait for that one.

Like I said, great car before, and still great car after the 8.0 update.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:19 pm

I agree with Kevin. I will try to watch the video to the end, but for a guy who shuffled his seemingly copious notes a lot, he sure was disorganized. I bailed around the time he went off on a rant about the two seasons in Wisconsin: 1 winter and 2 road repair. The video probably could have been 5 minutes in length.

I've only driven around 200 miles under 8.0. Tbh, I haven't noticed much other than a more detailed "picture" of other vehicles, a more detailed but more confusing media UI (is that where terminated Apple Music developers go for their next job?), and a map that's different but I don't have an opinion on yet.

A beef I have is that I haven't seen Release Notes online. I prefer not to have to read them on my touchscreen.

ETA: mine is an X, but most of 8.0 changes apply to S and X.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Tue Oct 11, 2016 3:35 pm

One thing that comes across to me, even though he did not really discuss it, was the slowness of the UI (actually, I think he said it was faster then past versions). I sure wish they have upgrade the processor(s) in the new vehicle I will get. I do agree with him that I would rather keep the top line showing instead of playing hide-and-seek with the icons.

He does apologize for the length of the video at the end. But, if you can get by the conditions of the roads in his state there is a lot of content in the video. He has additional videos that show his experience with Autopilot on 8.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Tue Oct 11, 2016 6:08 pm

Leif wrote: I do agree with him that I would rather keep the top line showing instead of playing hide-and-seek with the icons.
I agree with this, and it's a common complaint, but it's not that big of a deal to me. Now it takes two taps instead of one to activate an app. The rationale was to increase the space for the map, but it's so big already that I don't notice any benefit. The thing I miss the most with the hidden app icons is not being able to quickly check the network signal strength, but when you lose network connectivity an icon appears indicating this.

This reminds me of one change that I really like: now if you have the nav/map active in the top half of the screen, which I usually do, any other app (except rear camera, which I almost never use) opens in bottom half of screen when activated (all apps used to open in top half when app icon was tapped). I really like this, because typically I will want to switch between energy app and media app in lower half while keeping nav/map in upper half. Prior to the update you either had to drag the app down to the lower half, or flip apps between top/bottom, activate app, then flip again. I found dragging app to be a pain, and it created bigger smudges on the screen.

Another minor improvement I like is continuous display of estimated energy remaining at destination at the bottom of the turn-by-turn direction list (you used to have to tap to see this), but this is redundant if you have the energy app in the main screen. You also can turn on continuous display of estimated energy remaining for round-trip if you want, which is something you don't see in the energy app.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:27 pm

I will be driving 500 or 600 miles of AP in the coming week; one round trip to Saratoga Springs that is made for AP, and one round trip to New Haven that is a bit more demanding. I'm looking forward to seeing how 8.0 fares
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Tue Oct 11, 2016 11:13 pm

Kevin M wrote:
Leif wrote: I do agree with him that I would rather keep the top line showing instead of playing hide-and-seek with the icons.
I agree with this, and it's a common complaint, but it's not that big of a deal to me. Now it takes two taps instead of one to activate an app. The rationale was to increase the space for the map, but it's so big already that I don't notice any benefit. The thing I miss the most with the hidden app icons is not being able to quickly check the network signal strength, but when you lose network connectivity an icon appears indicating this.
I wish they had only expanded it over the app icons and left the status bar at the top unobstructed. Network status, locked/unlocked, time, etc. all would remain visible at all times and you still get over an inch more map.
Kevin M wrote: This reminds me of one change that I really like: now if you have the nav/map active in the top half of the screen, which I usually do, any other app (except rear camera, which I almost never use) opens in bottom half of screen when activated (all apps used to open in top half when app icon was tapped). I really like this, because typically I will want to switch between energy app and media app in lower half while keeping nav/map in upper half. Prior to the update you either had to drag the app down to the lower half, or flip apps between top/bottom, activate app, then flip again. I found dragging app to be a pain, and it created bigger smudges on the screen.
I would have MUCH preferred if they allowed us to lock one of the apps in the panel it is in. So you could lock the map up top (maybe press and hold the "switch" button) and then every other app just goes to the other half (unless you drag, overriding the "lock"). This would also allow me who want to lock Media on the bottom and use the top for everything else to not have to change now. The best of both worlds. Maybe in 8.1.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:39 am

BrandonBogle wrote:I wish they had only expanded it over the app icons and left the status bar at the top unobstructed. Network status, locked/unlocked, time, etc. all would remain visible at all times and you still get over an inch more map.
I like it better as it was, the screen real estate taken by the app icons is relatively minor. However, your solution is certainly better then the current UI.
BrandonBogle wrote: I would have MUCH preferred if they allowed us to lock one of the apps in the panel it is in. So you could lock the map up top (maybe press and hold the "switch" button) and then every other app just goes to the other half (unless you drag, overriding the "lock"). This would also allow me who want to lock Media on the bottom and use the top for everything else to not have to change now. The best of both worlds. Maybe in 8.1.
I like that idea. Lock the top or bottom (user choice) and let new apps go to the other pane. That would satisfy KmanAuto's desire to always have the video in the bottom pane. Seems like the more flexible approach.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Oct 12, 2016 8:10 pm

Leif wrote:
BrandonBogle wrote:I wish they had only expanded it over the app icons and left the status bar at the top unobstructed. Network status, locked/unlocked, time, etc. all would remain visible at all times and you still get over an inch more map.
I like it better as it was, the screen real estate taken by the app icons is relatively minor. However, your solution is certainly better then the current UI.
Oh yeah, I prefer the original method more, but some people really like the extra 2 inches. I just thing the extra 0.5" for the status bar was going too far.
BrandonBogle wrote: I would have MUCH preferred if they allowed us to lock one of the apps in the panel it is in. So you could lock the map up top (maybe press and hold the "switch" button) and then every other app just goes to the other half (unless you drag, overriding the "lock"). This would also allow me who want to lock Media on the bottom and use the top for everything else to not have to change now. The best of both worlds. Maybe in 8.1.
I like that idea. Lock the top or bottom (user choice) and let new apps go to the other pane. That would satisfy KmanAuto's desire to always have the video in the bottom pane. Seems like the more flexible approach.[/quote]
Yeah. It would also hope with the "what will X do" aspect if you have to manually lock the specific app you want. Right now, it takes more cognitive thought to figure out where your clicked app is going to go. Not hard since only Nav and Camera prefer up top, but when driving, the extra thoughts matter. Some have complained that now when they click Media, they don't know if it will appear at the bottom (Nav or Camera up top), at the top (Nav or Camera at bottom), or maybe at the bottom (when both Nav and Camera are already up). Again, not hard when we are sitting at the keyboard, but more than necessary. If you get to lock the one app of your choosing, the driver just simply knows it will always go to his/her "disposable" slot and we all win b/c we get the flexibility to not only decide which slot that is, but which is the one that sticks.

Again, maybe in 8.1 :)

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:12 am

Just had my order confirmed on Sunday. On Wednesday they have a big announcement. I "guess" I will be getting the new hardware. I have not heard for sure. Perhaps Elon's delay of the announcement to "fine tune" was just to complete the pre AP 2.0 cars in the pipeline first?

Interesting the way that worked. They cleared a lot of inventory in September with special deals. They suggested multiple times I take an inventory car. Everyone assumed it was to hit some numbers for Q3. Now it seems they sold their inventory before its price dropped as the result of pre AP 2 hardware. Smart I guess, but some purchasers of the inventory may have waited if they knew about the new hardware going in. The Osborne effect.

I'm wondering about the enhanced Autopilot (giving 3 additional cameras). It is an additional $2,000 over the $3,000 I paid. It is probably worth it. Then an additional $3,000 for 4 more cameras activated (total 8) and self driving (to come at some future date pending software development and regulation approval).

Lots to talk about today.

PS - GUESS CONFIRMED. I will be getting the new hardware. 8-)
Last edited by Leif on Thu Oct 20, 2016 5:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:24 am

These are exciting developments, but I'm not racing out to trade my X in for a 2.0 capable X. I will wait a couple of years and by that time, who knows, maybe a 150kwh battery will be available. I think that my "obsolete" X will remain in the family 8-)
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Re: Tesla S

Post by matjen » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:35 am

This is why you lease a car like a Tesla. It is changing too rapidly. Older Porsches and such have certain qualities that can be viewed as an advantage. Who would want a $125K+ Tesla X that is vastly inferior to the newer ones? Not me that's for sure.

Elon Musk yesterday:
"Should mention that retrofitting to full self-driving hardware is very difficult. Cost delta is more than buying a new car. Wish it weren't."
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:55 am

The Tesla website says the following about enhanced AP. Doesn't look much different from AP except perhaps freeway exits. Perhaps also lane changes now requires the driver to use the turn signal.
Enhanced Autopilot
Enhanced Autopilot adds these new capabilities to the Tesla Autopilot driving experience. Your Tesla will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes without requiring driver input, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway when your destination is near, self-park when near a parking spot and be summoned to and from your garage.

Tesla’s Enhanced Autopilot software is expected to complete validation and be rolled out to your car via an over-the-air update in December 2016, subject to regulatory approval.
Under self driving on the website is says the following. Not sure what it means. What is automatic charge?
For Superchargers that have automatic charge connection enabled, you will not even need to plug in your vehicle

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Re: Tesla S

Post by techthedj » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:52 am

Leif wrote:What is automatic charge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:28 pm

techthedj wrote:
Leif wrote:What is automatic charge?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMM0lRfX6YI
Or some variation. Seems like a lot of tech to avoid 4s:)

There are lots of unknowns. For existing their autopilot as good as it gets or do they keep getting development for the next 10+ years. For the new cars, when do you get basic safety tech like AEB back? When will any of this tech actually work. Are we talking an on time ship or a date that slips by a couple of years (this is the type of software where getting the last 1% correct is notoriously hard) and it turns out that say GM ships a self driving car 1 year before they do. After all it isn't remotely clear if Teslsa tech is more advanced than the stuff Volvo, Delphi, Google, Mercedes, and a bunch others have been showing for the past year or two. And local regulatory approval is a big wild card. You can debate if the preannoucement is smart (compare the press they are getting versus the other companies. Annoucing products years in advance results in people comparing your future product to todays products which make yours look better) or just leads to disappoint (when 2019 rolls around and I am still driving) if you fail to deliver.

And for real fun, what do you think the "Tesla Network" is going to be? Maybe it will turn out that you can pay for your Tesla by renting it out as a ride-share car during the hours you are not using (i.e. staying in friday night, let the car go to work from 9pm-3am) it.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by harikaried » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:46 pm

randomguy wrote:
Or some variation. Seems like a lot of tech to avoid 4s:)
Well, if the passengers were sleeping or the car was unoccupied, it would probably take more than 4s to get the vehicle charging. I would assume these will be used more for the "drop me off at the front door and find parking itself" situations where the vehicle can smartly charge up while you're working/shopping/eating/etc.
randomguy wrote:For the new cars, when do you get basic safety tech like AEB back?
Elon Musk believes the new hardware + software will reach parity of previous AutoPilot functionality by the end of this year. Tesla is making roughly 2000 vehicles each week, and all of those will be learning and sending data back. If we say each vehicle averages 10 miles a day, in 2 months, the new hardware will have seen over 5 million miles of driving by Christmas. By the end of this year, there should be 20,000 vehicles with the new hardware driving 200,000 miles each day.

Tesla has said they expect to roll out significant self driving capability updates every quarter with the ability for vehicles to drive completely autonomously across the country.
randomguy wrote:And for real fun, what do you think the "Tesla Network" is going to be? Maybe it will turn out that you can pay for your Tesla by renting it out as a ride-share car during the hours you are not using (i.e. staying in friday night, let the car go to work from 9pm-3am) it.
I suppose the most detail so far is from the "Master Plan, Part Deux" post https://www.tesla.com/blog/master-plan-part-deux

The key piece being "This dramatically lowers the true cost of ownership to the point where almost anyone could own a Tesla."

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:49 pm

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Re: Tesla S

Post by techthedj » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:18 pm

harikaried wrote:
randomguy wrote:
Or some variation. Seems like a lot of tech to avoid 4s:)
Well, if the passengers were sleeping or the car was unoccupied, it would probably take more than 4s to get the vehicle charging. I would assume these will be used more for the "drop me off at the front door and find parking itself" situations where the vehicle can smartly charge up while you're working/shopping/eating/etc.
Exactly. This is vital for Elon's vision of "being able to summon your car in LA even if you are in NY"

Edit: It also will help in situations where there is a queue for charging. The owner would be able to leave the car unattended and it would charge itself.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Thu Oct 20, 2016 2:40 pm

harikaried wrote:
randomguy wrote:
Or some variation. Seems like a lot of tech to avoid 4s:)
Well, if the passengers were sleeping or the car was unoccupied, it would probably take more than 4s to get the vehicle charging. I would assume these will be used more for the "drop me off at the front door and find parking itself" situations where the vehicle can smartly charge up while you're working/shopping/eating/etc.
randomguy wrote:For the new cars, when do you get basic safety tech like AEB back?
Elon Musk believes the new hardware + software will reach parity of previous AutoPilot functionality by the end of this year. Tesla is making roughly 2000 vehicles each week, and all of those will be learning and sending data back. If we say each vehicle averages 10 miles a day, in 2 months, the new hardware will have seen over 5 million miles of driving by Christmas. By the end of this year, there should be 20,000 vehicles with the new hardware driving 200,000 miles each day.

Tesla has said they expect to roll out significant self driving capability updates every quarter with the ability for vehicles to drive completely autonomously across the country.
Sure but again until something ships it is vaporware. Saying is easy. Shipping is hard. Having to take on a 20-30% higher chance of an accident (about what AEB has been shown to prevent) until that happens is not a great choice to have to make. Given that every other maker has rolled out adaptive cruise control and AEB without having to do this makes me wonder a bit about their approach. 5 million miles sounds like a lot. But I don't think you or me has a real good feel about if you need 5 million miles or 5 billion miles to get to 99% of the cases. I remember a while back Acura having some issues where it turned out some metal bridges messed up their radar. If there are only 10 bridges in the country with that construction pattern, it might take a long time til you realize you have a problem.

Again it is mainly an interesting thing rather than a criticism. Alpha/Beta testing on users isn't something that car companies have traditionally done. Maybe it is the right approach. Maybe the more gradual approaches of MB, Volvo, Ford and the rest is a better idea. It will be interesting to see who ends up shipping first. And in 10 years I expect every self driving car will have an accident rating to go along with every thing else. Do you buy the Tesla with 1 crash per million miles, the volvo with .5 per million but costs 4k more, or the Ford with 2 crashes per million but costs half as much?:)

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Kevin M » Thu Oct 20, 2016 6:10 pm

randomguy wrote:Given that every other maker has rolled out adaptive cruise control and AEB without having to do this makes me wonder a bit about their approach.
I hear you on this, but then I wonder how I would feel if I bought a car with AP1 hardware a couple months before AP2 came out because Tesla wanted to do this last bit of testing (which they expect to have done by December). There are already owners complaining about taking delivery just before this announcement, and I assume Tesla wanted to minimize this, and figured people would be happier getting the new hardware and having to wait a couple of months for AP1 parity.

My plan has been to upgrade from MS 70D to MS P100D once I was sure I would be getting AP2 hardware. With the details out, I now plan to wait until AP2 reaches AP1 parity, since I'm totally spoiled by AP and don't want to give it up for a couple of months just to get a faster car with more range.

I have been guessing that AP2 was coming soon, but had no idea it would be capable of full Level 5 autonomy, so am happily blown away by that. Now there is at least an actual timeline for AP2 to achieve AP1 parity, so I can start thinking about giving myself a really nice Christmas present ;-). I look forward to being part of the test fleet that will gain increasing levels of autonomous driving capability over the next few years.

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