Tesla S

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Valuethinker
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:26 am

prudent wrote:
Offshore wrote:The Tesla representative claims that in 2015, not only will auto parking become an available download, but it can do it without a driver. It sounds crazy, but he says the P85D has the capability (when the firmware is released) to let out its passengers, circle a parking lot until it finds a spot, park itself and shut down. Then, when summoned again, the car will return to the point of drop off and wait to be driven away!!
I wonder how insurance companies are going to cope with features like this. "While I was walking to my car in the parking lot, your unattended car drove into me" sounds like a nightmare scenario. 360-degree video recording could be a valuable complement to auto-driving.
Certainly in Russia everyone has a dashboard cam. The police and courts are so corrupt that you have to have visual evidence of your actions if there is an accident.

That's why we have such great films of that meteor exploding near a Russian town-- people caught it on their car cams.

It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.

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knpstr
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Re: Tesla S

Post by knpstr » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:01 pm

Valuethinker wrote: It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.
Going to go out on a limb and say they would have thought of this scenario. Obviously if a car is traveling 60 mph and a kid jumps in front of it, the kid is getting hit, but it was literally an unavoidable collision, the kid at fault. The computers will have faster reactions than humans ever could, so overall hits should be reduced. Running into deer and the like will keep happening.
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slbnoob
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Re: Tesla S

Post by slbnoob » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:32 pm

Has anyone here bought a used Tesla, or even a Leaf for that matter?

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:22 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
The tough part with cars like the tesla (hybrids have the same issue but it is more extreme in electric cars) is that we are not used to factoring in fuel savings when buying a car. How much are you willing to pay to save 1-2k/yr in gas? It would be pretty reasonable to pay 15k more for the same car.
(not sure who wrote this?)

If you are paying $75-110k for a car, whether it makes 20 mpg or 100 mpg is probably fairly irrelevant to you.

10k miles pa, 20 mpg = 500 gallons of gas a year. Let's say gas goes back up, and that costs you $2500. Multiply by 10 years, $25k. OK a Tesla saves you $2500 a year in those fairly extreme calculations. But of course there are plenty of luxury cars around that do 30 mpg plus, so the savings are reduced.
The math for normal cars is the same. What is a cheaper car: A 27k Leaf that saves you 1500/yr (or a prius that costs 25k and saves you 500) in gas or a 20k Honda Civic? When your buying a Telsa, your alternative isn't to buy a civic or accord. It is to buy a BMW 5 (70k) or 7 (85k) series car. At those prices the cost of gas is enough to make the prices pretty close based on your assumptions (2 dollar gas or 4, ownership length, city versus highway driving,...).

As for money mattering, its a mixture. There are always people that can do a 60k car but not a 70k car. The general point is the total cost of ownership is not how we have been trained to shop for cars. Sticker price is easy. Figuring out the other costs (fuel, tires, maintence,...) is a heck of a lot trickier for most people.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:26 pm

I have some questions for Tesla S owners.

I went to a store yesterday. One is why are the front cup holders so far back? I would need to twist to reach a cup in one of those. Also whats up with that huge space, on the floor, between the front seats. Is that just an area to throw your junk into? Given conservative driving are the EPA range what you are getting?

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:49 pm

Leif wrote:I have some questions for Tesla S owners.

I went to a store yesterday. One is why are the front cup holders so far back? I would need to twist to reach a cup in one of those. Also whats up with that huge space, on the floor, between the front seats. Is that just an area to throw your junk into? Given conservative driving are the EPA range what you are getting?
Because Elon Musk and his team are brilliant automobile designers but suck at cup holders and center consoles/armrests! Actually, the forward cup holders are fine and I don't find myself twisting, but that's me. However, unless you want to pay a lot of extra money, those are the two only cup holders in the car. Maybe that's good if you don't want to encourage your rear seat passengers to bring drinks in the car :)

The wide open space between the front seats....some people like that design feature, some people don't. You can put stuff down there, but it's there for everyone to see. One wouldn't want to put a cell phone or cash there and park the car where it could be broken into. There's a small shelf in the dash where you can hide stuff, or you can put stuff in the glove box. If you want to buy a center console that fits in that open area, it's extra and unfortunately not cheap. I took the $10 route and went to Office Depot and bought a small black organizer that fits in the space securely and looks nice.

Range varies widely. How fast are you driving? How cold is it out? Did you preheat the battery and the cabin before you left on your journey if it's cold out? Is it raining? Is there snow on the street? You can certainly get the range advertised by Tesla under the conditions Tesla states give you that range. If it's a freezing cold day in the Mid West US like it is now, you are not going to get that advertised range. The weather where I have been driving has been hovering around 0 degrees F, which are pretty extreme electric car conditions (yes I know people live in colder/worse climates, but it's extreme for me!). My S85 is probably getting 200 miles-ish of range with the heat on 69F in the cabin and mixed city/highway driving if I extrapolate out local energy usage. I rarely drive that far in a given day so it's not a concern for me.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:13 pm

knpstr wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.
Going to go out on a limb and say they would have thought of this scenario. Obviously if a car is traveling 60 mph and a kid jumps in front of it, the kid is getting hit, but it was literally an unavoidable collision, the kid at fault. The computers will have faster reactions than humans ever could, so overall hits should be reduced. Running into deer and the like will keep happening.
Sorry I was just thinking about the self parking tesla. A long way from Google's automated cars.

Has automated car technology advanced to the point where the Tesla will avoid a small child?

'Kid at fault'. Well, the court will be looking for someone to bear the cost of a damaged child and care for their entire life. That could be a huge number. It will be one someone's insurance-- and that has to be the car owner.

I can't go into this but death, even of someone not earning, can be a very expensive matter even in a jurisdiction where 'pain and suffering' liability is strictly limited by law.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Tue Feb 24, 2015 12:31 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
knpstr wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.
Going to go out on a limb and say they would have thought of this scenario. Obviously if a car is traveling 60 mph and a kid jumps in front of it, the kid is getting hit, but it was literally an unavoidable collision, the kid at fault. The computers will have faster reactions than humans ever could, so overall hits should be reduced. Running into deer and the like will keep happening.
Sorry I was just thinking about the self parking tesla. A long way from Google's automated cars.

Has automated car technology advanced to the point where the Tesla will avoid a small child?

'Kid at fault'. Well, the court will be looking for someone to bear the cost of a damaged child and care for their entire life. That could be a huge number. It will be one someone's insurance-- and that has to be the car owner.

I can't go into this but death, even of someone not earning, can be a very expensive matter even in a jurisdiction where 'pain and suffering' liability is strictly limited by law.
Is there really a difference between me running over a kid and an autonomous car running over a kid? Accidents happen. I expect auto insurance to evolve to handle it. The tough part is the autodriving might cut accidents by 50% overall but their might be 5% more accidents in cases that a human wouldn't have had the accident. Every time one of those type of accidents happens it will make the news for a long while.

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knpstr
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Re: Tesla S

Post by knpstr » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:31 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
knpstr wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.
Going to go out on a limb and say they would have thought of this scenario. Obviously if a car is traveling 60 mph and a kid jumps in front of it, the kid is getting hit, but it was literally an unavoidable collision, the kid at fault. The computers will have faster reactions than humans ever could, so overall hits should be reduced. Running into deer and the like will keep happening.
Sorry I was just thinking about the self parking tesla. A long way from Google's automated cars.

Has automated car technology advanced to the point where the Tesla will avoid a small child?

'Kid at fault'. Well, the court will be looking for someone to bear the cost of a damaged child and care for their entire life. That could be a huge number. It will be one someone's insurance-- and that has to be the car owner.

I can't go into this but death, even of someone not earning, can be a very expensive matter even in a jurisdiction where 'pain and suffering' liability is strictly limited by law.
I believe so. It will avoid hitting an adult that jumps in front of it. The sensor isn't looking for "an adult" its just looking for any object. I'm pretty sure the court should find that if a kid runs in front of a car that obviously could not be stopped in time, the driver should be let off free. Automated cars will have improved reaction times and also won't be speeding, all helping to reduce overall accident numbers.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volvo-has- ... d-by-2017/
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Re: Tesla S

Post by jdb » Tue Feb 24, 2015 3:50 pm

More accolades for the vehicle which is the subject of this seeming never ending thread.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/tesla-mod ... rc=applewf

Valuethinker
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Feb 24, 2015 5:51 pm

knpstr wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:
knpstr wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: It is certainly a litigation nightmare if a robotized car kills or maims someone, say a small child that it is not programmed to 'see'.
Going to go out on a limb and say they would have thought of this scenario. Obviously if a car is traveling 60 mph and a kid jumps in front of it, the kid is getting hit, but it was literally an unavoidable collision, the kid at fault. The computers will have faster reactions than humans ever could, so overall hits should be reduced. Running into deer and the like will keep happening.
Sorry I was just thinking about the self parking tesla. A long way from Google's automated cars.

Has automated car technology advanced to the point where the Tesla will avoid a small child?

'Kid at fault'. Well, the court will be looking for someone to bear the cost of a damaged child and care for their entire life. That could be a huge number. It will be one someone's insurance-- and that has to be the car owner.

I can't go into this but death, even of someone not earning, can be a very expensive matter even in a jurisdiction where 'pain and suffering' liability is strictly limited by law.
I believe so. It will avoid hitting an adult that jumps in front of it. The sensor isn't looking for "an adult" its just looking for any object. I'm pretty sure the court should find that if a kid runs in front of a car that obviously could not be stopped in time, the driver should be let off free. Automated cars will have improved reaction times and also won't be speeding, all helping to reduce overall accident numbers.

http://blog.caranddriver.com/volvo-has- ... d-by-2017/
OK my experience (maybe a different tort law system, but one that does not allow large pain and suffering settlements) is that fault or no, the court needs to find someone to pay the damages (which for an injured child could be in the millions) -- and that's the driver's insurer. I stress I am not a legal expert, this is just personal experience.

And of course they would sue the manufacturer as well.

Again I am not talking here about self driving cars. I am talking here about a Tesla cruising round a parking lot: next year.

Have all the legal possibilities of that been worked out?

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Mar 18, 2015 9:58 am

If this was previously posted, my apologies. I'm hoping to get my X model towards the end of the year. My electrician says that the Wall Connector will be challenging to install. The 240 40 amp charger seems fine for overnight charging, but I would probably have to install a Ballard since the max distance to the car is supposed to be 15 feet. Our garage is not suitable for placing the charger.

What gave others done?
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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:23 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:If this was previously posted, my apologies. I'm hoping to get my X model towards the end of the year. My electrician says that the Wall Connector will be challenging to install. The 240 40 amp charger seems fine for overnight charging, but I would probably have to install a Ballard since the max distance to the car is supposed to be 15 feet. Our garage is not suitable for placing the charger.

What gave others done?
What is a ballard? When you say "wall connector" are you talking about a 50amp receptacle or the Tesla charging station? Why will it be a challenging install?

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:30 am

ualdriver wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:If this was previously posted, my apologies. I'm hoping to get my X model towards the end of the year. My electrician says that the Wall Connector will be challenging to install. The 240 40 amp charger seems fine for overnight charging, but I would probably have to install a Ballard since the max distance to the car is supposed to be 15 feet. Our garage is not suitable for placing the charger.

What gave others done?
What is a ballard? When you say "wall connector" are you talking about a 50amp receptacle or the Tesla charging station? Why will it be a challenging install?
It sounds like Tomato is talking abouthw high-powered wall connect (HPWC) and the install location would make it further than 15 feet from where the vehicle would be parked in the garage. At least, that's my best guess. No clue what a Ballard is.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Mar 18, 2015 10:40 am

Yes. The installation would be a PITA because we'd have to upgrade our service, and I think the HPWC needs to be on a wall. From what I've been told, a Ballard is usually a raised light (2-3 feet) in landscaping, but it can also refer to a post that is sturdy enough to withstand a bump from a car. In our case, it would mean running electric around 10 feet through the landscaping to the edge of our driveway for the 240 outlet.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by kenyan » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:13 am

I believe that's a bollard.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:48 am

kenyan wrote:I believe that's a bollard.
This is hilarious.

Doubtless 'Ballard' was a misstyping of 'bollard'?

But I read it as a 'Ballard' as in the fuel cell company
. Ballard Power Systems BLDP .

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:02 pm

Ballard, bollard, bollocks?
What do I know?
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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Mar 18, 2015 12:47 pm

I thought I read on the TMC forums that some member mounted their "wall connector" to the ceiling and used a tool pulley to keep the connector above the path of the car until needed. Perhaps that is an option instead of detouring the electrical through landscaping.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by skepticalobserver » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:38 pm

Elon just announced Tesla is in the development stage of the "Schelpp Charging Station" which can be hooked up to the vehicle. Also can serve as a two-sided toaster and muffin warmer.

Also, offering Prozac Rx's for "range anxiety."

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:02 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:Yes. The installation would be a PITA because we'd have to upgrade our service, and I think the HPWC needs to be on a wall. From what I've been told, a Ballard is usually a raised light (2-3 feet) in landscaping, but it can also refer to a post that is sturdy enough to withstand a bump from a car. In our case, it would mean running electric around 10 feet through the landscaping to the edge of our driveway for the 240 outlet.
The HPWC uses up to an 80 amp circuit, doesn't it? Can you put a lesser capacity circuit in so you don't have to upgrade your service? And the HPWC cord is 25 feet long. Can you put the HPWC on the side of your house and just park your car's left rear quarter panel with 25 feet-ish of the HPWC?

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Mar 19, 2015 9:32 am

Ualdriver, yes, I could put in a 40 amp circuit without too much trouble. The HPWC has a 25-foot cable, but Tesla apparently expects 5 foot of slack, so park within 20 feet. Same slack for the 20-foot cable that connects to the 240 volt outlet. There is no charging benefit to the HPWC over the outlet at 40 amps (i.e., both get 29 miles/hour of charging).

I guess my question wonders how many got a double charger rather than a single charger? How many went for a full-power HPWC?
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DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:07 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:Ualdriver, yes, I could put in a 40 amp circuit without too much trouble. The HPWC has a 25-foot cable, but Tesla apparently expects 5 foot of slack, so park within 20 feet. Same slack for the 20-foot cable that connects to the 240 volt outlet. There is no charging benefit to the HPWC over the outlet at 40 amps (i.e., both get 29 miles/hour of charging).

I guess my question wonders how many got a double charger rather than a single charger? How many went for a full-power HPWC?
I initially planned to get the HPWC. Having researched the car and followed the company fairly closely, I just sort of thought this was the way to go and what most people did. Admittedly I hadn't researched THIS particular aspect as much as I should have. So I asked people on the Tesla forum and many of the told me it wasn't necessary. And they were right.

I installed the NEMA 14-50, and I went with a single charger rather than a dual charger. I have no regrets. Charging at 29 miles/hour (40 amps) at home is more than adequate for me. I am sure over the years I may have one or two occurrences where I wish I had the HPWC. I told myself up front to expect that to happen once or twice. But it still wouldn't justify the extra cost for the HPWC (I think they have lowered the price somewhat since I purchased, it was around $1,500 if I remember correctly when I purchased).

As for dual chargers----they only benefit you when you want to charge >40 amps, except for at Superchargers where single and dual chargers charge at the same speed. So the only circumstances where you might benefit from a dual charger, assuming you don't have a HPWC at home, would be when you are out on the road and have access to a HPWC elsewhere. If that happens you could charge a bit faster if you have dual chargers.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:36 am

DFWinvestor wrote:As for dual chargers----they only benefit you when you want to charge >40 amps, except for at Superchargers where single and dual chargers charge at the same speed. So the only circumstances where you might benefit from a dual charger, assuming you don't have a HPWC at home, would be when you are out on the road and have access to a HPWC elsewhere. If that happens you could charge a bit faster if you have dual chargers.
Thank you; I should research this more :D I actually thought, in my ignorance, that the dual charger would charge more quickly on the road when I find a Supercharger, and it was going to be my reason to have it.

I think I'll have your setup. 40 Amp and single charger.
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DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Thu Mar 19, 2015 10:49 am

TomatoTomahto wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:As for dual chargers----they only benefit you when you want to charge >40 amps, except for at Superchargers where single and dual chargers charge at the same speed. So the only circumstances where you might benefit from a dual charger, assuming you don't have a HPWC at home, would be when you are out on the road and have access to a HPWC elsewhere. If that happens you could charge a bit faster if you have dual chargers.
Thank you; I should research this more :D I actually thought, in my ignorance, that the dual charger would charge more quickly on the road when I find a Supercharger, and it was going to be my reason to have it.

I think I'll have your setup. 40 Amp and single charger.
I am embarrassed to admit this but I didn't even know this until after I took delivery of my car. I knew about the HPWC but hadn't considered the SC issue. What I have been told is the Supercharger bypasses the chargers on the vehicle, and pours direct current straight into the battery. So it's the same with or without the dual chargers.

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Thu Mar 19, 2015 12:32 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote:As for dual chargers----they only benefit you when you want to charge >40 amps, except for at Superchargers where single and dual chargers charge at the same speed. So the only circumstances where you might benefit from a dual charger, assuming you don't have a HPWC at home, would be when you are out on the road and have access to a HPWC elsewhere. If that happens you could charge a bit faster if you have dual chargers.
Thank you; I should research this more :D I actually thought, in my ignorance, that the dual charger would charge more quickly on the road when I find a Supercharger, and it was going to be my reason to have it.

I think I'll have your setup. 40 Amp and single charger.
It's not ignorance. This is all new technology so the learning curve is quite steep. One just has to ask questions, and IMO also educate the public about this new technology, which is widely misunderstood.

As far as the decision to have 80 amp charging versus something else, I don't think it really matters what everyone else does. One has to look at how they're going to use their car, and then put in the appropriate "level" of charging in place. I had a Chevy Volt before my Tesla, so I had a VOLTEC charging station hanging on my garage wall. It was on a 20 amp circuit, and the VOLTEC would have charged my Tesla at a rate of about 10-ish miles per hour. Yes, that is an incredibly slow rate of charge, but for me, that would have been just fine. I'm one of those American's that squarely fits into the "80% of Americans drive less than 40 miles a day" statistic. I don't need some crazy high rate of charge considering how much range Model S has available and my driving habits.

I do have a NEMA 14-50 plug on a 50 amp circuit now because the VOLTEC charging station lived up to its reputation and crapped out on me after only a couple of years. It's nice, but honestly in the several months I've owned the Model S, I have never needed that much charging capacity. I would imagine one would have to be a pretty heavy user of automobile miles to need that rate of charge at home. Unless you fit into that rare category, I would bet that you would be very happy with a NEMA 14-50 plug, and it sounds like you would save the expense of having to upgrade your electrical box.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Thu Mar 19, 2015 7:02 pm

The experience of owners on this thread is invaluable.

Teslas have just arrived over here (UK) and although driving distances are not great, we don't have a lot of charging stations (and half the london ones don't work, apparently :oops: :? ).

Tesla's success has surprised me. I think electric cars *are* the future, but I have no idea how fast that future might, or might not, come.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Thu Mar 19, 2015 8:40 pm

Valuethinker wrote:The experience of owners on this thread is invaluable.

Teslas have just arrived over here (UK) and although driving distances are not great, we don't have a lot of charging stations (and half the london ones don't work, apparently :oops: :? ).

Tesla's success has surprised me. I think electric cars *are* the future, but I have no idea how fast that future might, or might not, come.
That's bad if they aren't working in the UK. Tesla needs to keep those Supercharger roll outs smooth so people can have confidence in the technology. In the US, Tesla has been on top of the few outages that I have heard of. In fact, there was one supercharger station that went down hard somewhere on the U.S. west coast, but I forgot where. Anyway, Tesla had flatbed tow trucks available for any Tesla that would end up being stranded due to the dead Supercharger station to take the driver and his Model S to the next Supercharger down the road of their travels.

If anyone is interested in seeing what the Supercharger network looks like in the US, China, and UK/Western Europe, type in supercharge.info into your browser (don't preface with a www) and you can see just how extensive the network is becoming. The red dots are existing Superchargers. The blue dots are under permit. The orange cones are under construction.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by skepticalobserver » Fri Mar 27, 2015 8:32 am

More eye opening analysis of the Tesla "miracle" from the WSJ ("Tesla: Just Another Car Company"). And, you won't need to find a charging station to read it!

http://www.wsj.com/articles/holman-jenk ... 1427238597

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Re: Tesla S

Post by dmcmahon » Fri Mar 27, 2015 9:28 am

You see them everywhere here in Silicon Valley. Someone told me it's the #1 seller in Atherton (a well-heeled mid-peninsula suburb). No question the cars are sexy as hell, and incredible to drive (so I'm told) with amazing acceleration.

My thoughts for what they're worth:

1. Having owned an electric motorcycle from a company that later went bankrupt, I can tell you there's nothing like having a lot of money sunk in a vehicle you can't get service for. Especially when the battery dies (as mine did). Hopefully a better fate awaits Tesla but you never know.
2. Battery fires - yes they happen. Happened to me on the bike. While riding it. Not fun.
3. Range - but you knew that.
4. Heater/aircon - they're needed less here in California, but I'd think twice if I lived someplace where I'd be constantly running the aircon in summer or the heater in winter, since the energy for either has to come straight from the batteries.
5. Cost - for a lot less you can have the electric RAV-4 from Toyota. Toyota, BMW, and other manufacturers trying to get in on the EV action are buying power train components (batteries, motors, heck the whole shebang possibly) from Tesla. (BTW that's a nice side business that will hopefully help Elon keep the lights on at Tesla!)
6. Environment - yes EVs save a lot of gas and (depending on your electric grid) a lot of emissions, but...not everyone can have one. Aside from the cost and longevity issues, there's all the metals (especially lithium for the batteries, maybe some rare earths in the motors depending on whose EV you buy). An analysis I read some years ago concluded that if you accept that the amount of these metals available per year is limited, and you could choose between building X pure EVs or Y conventional hybrids, that Y was >> X and therefore a lot more emissions would be saved overall by producing hybrids.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:04 am

dmcmahon wrote:You see them everywhere here in Silicon Valley. Someone told me it's the #1 seller in Atherton (a well-heeled mid-peninsula suburb). No question the cars are sexy as hell, and incredible to drive (so I'm told) with amazing acceleration.

My thoughts for what they're worth:

1. Having owned an electric motorcycle from a company that later went bankrupt, I can tell you there's nothing like having a lot of money sunk in a vehicle you can't get service for. Especially when the battery dies (as mine did). Hopefully a better fate awaits Tesla but you never know.
2. Battery fires - yes they happen. Happened to me on the bike. While riding it. Not fun.
3. Range - but you knew that.
4. Heater/aircon - they're needed less here in California, but I'd think twice if I lived someplace where I'd be constantly running the aircon in summer or the heater in winter, since the energy for either has to come straight from the batteries.
5. Cost - for a lot less you can have the electric RAV-4 from Toyota. Toyota, BMW, and other manufacturers trying to get in on the EV action are buying power train components (batteries, motors, heck the whole shebang possibly) from Tesla. (BTW that's a nice side business that will hopefully help Elon keep the lights on at Tesla!)
6. Environment - yes EVs save a lot of gas and (depending on your electric grid) a lot of emissions, but...not everyone can have one. Aside from the cost and longevity issues, there's all the metals (especially lithium for the batteries, maybe some rare earths in the motors depending on whose EV you buy). An analysis I read some years ago concluded that if you accept that the amount of these metals available per year is limited, and you could choose between building X pure EVs or Y conventional hybrids, that Y was >> X and therefore a lot more emissions would be saved overall by producing hybrids.
1) Yep. Of course i wouldn't want to own a gas car either once its manufactor ceases to exist.
2) Sure but gasoline fires aren't a picnic either
3) May or may not matter. When I lived in the bay area, I never drove more than 3 hours in 10+ years of living there. There are a whole class of people that don't need 200+ mile range
4) Same as 3). Either the range is enough for your needs or it isn't.
5) Sure. But you can also buy a honda civic instead of a porsche 911 and it will be a lot less. If you compare the cost of a Tesla to something like a BMW 6 gran coupe you are looking at a car that is in the same ballpark price wise.
6)This has been studied numerous times. The EVs are break even at worst (100% of all energy is coal based, no recycling) and win big under normal circumstances. Yes if the material was limited you might be better off with more hybrids. At the moment that isn't true. The other thing is that pushing pollution away from people is in general a win. Yeah it isn't great for the areas with the mines and power plants but on average they have much lower population density. This doesn't help with things like global warming but it does for example help prevent asthma in kids.

Right now electric cars are niche cars. That niche is growing though. It might take a long time for it to expand to include the pickup truck guy who needs to travel 400 miles per day and tow a huge trailer. But becoming a 40k car that can replace all those BMW 3 series and the like that are used for commuting is something that is likely to be reasonable in the next 5-10 years. Predicting the future is real hard. If the current battery trends continue for another 15-20 years (prices would drop like 75% and capacity would double), electric cars will be affordable and practical for a majority of users. And if solar power trends continue, electricity will be pretty darn cheap for most of the US. But we have no clue if those trends will continue another 5 years or another 20.

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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Epsilon Delta » Fri Mar 27, 2015 10:49 am

dmcmahon wrote: 1. Having owned an electric motorcycle from a company that later went bankrupt, I can tell you there's nothing like having a lot of money sunk in a vehicle you can't get service for. Especially when the battery dies (as mine did). Hopefully a better fate awaits Tesla but you never know.
...
5. ... Toyota, BMW, and other manufacturers trying to get in on the EV action are buying power train components (batteries, motors, heck the whole shebang possibly) from Tesla. (BTW that's a nice side business that will hopefully help Elon keep the lights on at Tesla!)
That side business also helps with the first issue. The more units in service with similar or identical parts the more likely there will be independent technicians and second source parts.

I'd expect that once total cars on the road get into the low six figures (maybe 2018?) there would be enough independents to continue support if Tesla goes belly up. There might even be enough volume now at ~50,000. I work on similarly complex industrial equipment in lower volumes and the factory techs have to compete with independents. It wouldn't be cheap, but it wouldn't be out of line for a luxury brand. Compare and contrast the number of electric bikes sold (which is probably in three figures or less).

Valuethinker
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:31 pm

dmcmahon wrote:You see them everywhere here in Silicon Valley. Someone told me it's the #1 seller in Atherton (a well-heeled mid-peninsula suburb). No question the cars are sexy as hell, and incredible to drive (so I'm told) with amazing acceleration.


5. Cost - for a lot less you can have the electric RAV-4 from Toyota. Toyota, BMW, and other manufacturers trying to get in on the EV action are buying power train components (batteries, motors, heck the whole shebang possibly) from Tesla. (BTW that's a nice side business that will hopefully help Elon keep the lights on at Tesla!)
You have answered your own point there. We don't buy cars for practicality, we buy them because we like the image it projects about us to ourselves and to others, plus hard to measure things like handling, drive, style... Tesla is an aspirational good in a way a Plug In Prius or a Nissan Leaf is not (they meet other aspirations).

If we didn't buy cars on aspirations then BMW would not be the world's most profitable car company (per $ of sales).
6. Environment - yes EVs save a lot of gas and (depending on your electric grid) a lot of emissions, but...not everyone can have one. Aside from the cost and longevity issues, there's all the metals (especially lithium for the batteries, maybe some rare earths in the motors depending on whose EV you buy). An analysis I read some years ago concluded that if you accept that the amount of these metals available per year is limited, and you could choose between building X pure EVs or Y conventional hybrids, that Y was >> X and therefore a lot more emissions would be saved overall by producing hybrids.
1. beware old analyses in this space, all the numbers change so fast

2. most analyses have an axe to grind, one way or another. True 'wheel to well' analysis is difficult (AEA Ricardo did some good ones for the UK CCC, but even they hit some limits on knowledge) and I've done this for other types of products and it is HARD. Too many unknowns and assumptions.

The world may have a shortage of lithium capacity but that's an issue about negotiating with Bolivia re access (they want battery factories, not just the rape and pillage mining of Bolivian history). It's not about lithium being an inherently scarce metal.

On the 'rare earths' they are not all rare. It's just when the prices collapsed in the 1990s the rest of the world shut down, and the Chinese kept investing.

So again, worries about shortages of rare earths are generally overblown and assume away technological change (we will find substitutes and we will get more efficient, as we have done with every other raw material since industrial civilization began).

The counterfactual is weak. It's not as if the choice is 1 Tesla or 3 Priuses. The choice is 1 Tesla or some totally different use for the material, which might include the Toyota Prius but also might include mobile phones etc.

If you want to worry about a raw material shortage, seriously, worry about a helium shortage. it's a critical component of many scientific and medical instruments, and supply (from US natural gas deposits) has been declining. And we use it to fill up balloons at parties! There's also a critical supply issue in the radioactive material (Polonium?) that NASA uses to power deep space probes.

No helium in a Tesla AFAIK. And no polonium ;-).

jimbowman
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Re: Tesla S

Post by jimbowman » Fri Mar 27, 2015 12:58 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:Ualdriver, yes, I could put in a 40 amp circuit without too much trouble. The HPWC has a 25-foot cable, but Tesla apparently expects 5 foot of slack, so park within 20 feet. Same slack for the 20-foot cable that connects to the 240 volt outlet. There is no charging benefit to the HPWC over the outlet at 40 amps (i.e., both get 29 miles/hour of charging).

I guess my question wonders how many got a double charger rather than a single charger? How many went for a full-power HPWC?
Just a FYI for future buyers, the dual charger option is no longer avaiable factory installed. They are making it a service center add on option. I guess they are trying to streamline the production line. It's $2,000 which is $500 more than when you could get it factory installed but less than the $3,500 after the fact price.

tecmage
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Re: Tesla S

Post by tecmage » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:20 pm

Ordered mine this week. Delivery late May according to the website. VIN was assigned the day after the order and it's now in production queue.

I opted not to go with the D, I didn't like the engine whine of the front motor on the test drive.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Apr 08, 2015 8:49 pm

Fellow Tesla owning (and following) Bogleheads, how do you feel about the power liftgate on your vehicle? With today's changes dismantling of the tech package (making the power liftgate part of the premium package) and the introduction of the 70 kWh dual motor Model S, the car is now in my sweet spot range financially.

Skipping the premium package and going with the 70D nets me a $15k saving. Otherwise, I will be at a $10k saving over yesterday's pricing/options with the 70D. Debating whether $5k is worth it for the liftgate and fog lights (I would also forgo the headliner that is an add'l cost outside the premium package).

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:43 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:Fellow Tesla owning (and following) Bogleheads, how do you feel about the power liftgate on your vehicle? With today's changes dismantling of the tech package (making the power liftgate part of the premium package) and the introduction of the 70 kWh dual motor Model S, the car is now in my sweet spot range financially.

Skipping the premium package and going with the 70D nets me a $15k saving. Otherwise, I will be at a $10k saving over yesterday's pricing/options with the 70D. Debating whether $5k is worth it for the liftgate and fog lights (I would also forgo the headliner that is an add'l cost outside the premium package).
IMHO, I don't see anything worth 5 grand there. "Fit and finish including use of higher quality materials?" I have no idea what that is. Alcantara headliner? Eh. Power liftgate- I do like my power liftgate but I wouldn't pay 5 grand for it. The LED/cornering lighting? Eh. But of course, stuff like that is subjective.

I think the base car is just fine as is. The only thing I would consider adding is maybe leather. A $70K car should probably have leather for resale value, although I would have been happy with the textile seating as it's really nice I think. I only have the tech package and leather on my car as options. I'm very, very happy with just that.

Also note that the "price" of the car includes "gas savings." Make sure you're looking at the right numbers before you hit that order button :) Congrats on your future purchase.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Wed Apr 08, 2015 9:56 pm

Oh yes, taking that into account. 70D, metallic paint, pano roof, standard wheels, autopilot, upgraded stereo. Then either black leather and standard headliner, or premium interior with gray seats and black headliner. Yesterday, the configuration would have been 85D, metallic paint, standard wheels, tech, upgraded stereo + either black seats and standard headliner, or gray seats and black headliner. Was looking at service cars for sale and decided to wait since not too many dual motors could be found with worthwhile discounts. Can't afford new without saving some more, so I figured I'd wait on an inventory/service car and with today's annoncement, I am within my "stretch budget" for the Tesla.

amitb00
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Re: Tesla S

Post by amitb00 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 5:02 am

Glad to see many fellow BH joining Tesla Owner community. Welcome. You all are going to love the puchase. Car gets newer by the updates.

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Leif
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Re: Tesla S

Post by Leif » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:44 am

I was a bit disappointed at their recent "event" for the model S. The event turned out to be nothing more than a mass test drive from the corner of a grocery store parking lot. A lot different from the Porsche event in which they rented a race track, had food and coffee, and gave a nice 30 minute presentation prior to their test drive on the track.

On another topic, anyone disappointed with the lack of a center console? I saw one You Tube video where a bunch of stuff starting shifting around from the tray they use in place of the center console. I think there are 3rd party offerings to add a console with some storage. I think it odd that would be necessary on a $70K car.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:49 am

While I definitely want a center console, I just decided to look at the car as $600 more expensive and gave people who do not want a center console the option to not having it and saving that money. The mental trick there helps swallow the $600 cost for getting a piano black center console installed! Same with another $450 for a rear console - though they I very much prefer how my 4Runner folds that up into the center seat and two cup holders and a tray that slide out when needed from the rear center console.

dc81584
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Re: Tesla S

Post by dc81584 » Thu Apr 09, 2015 9:57 am

I simply do not believe in spending more than $25,000 on a car, so no, in my opinion, you should not purchase a Tesla.

tecmage
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Re: Tesla S

Post by tecmage » Thu Apr 09, 2015 10:25 am

dc81584 wrote:I simply do not believe in spending more than $25,000 on a car, so no, in my opinion, you should not purchase a Tesla.
I believe the question was how do you feel about the liftgate option and not should I buy the car.

TLDR:
Short wife + myself being lazy = auto lift gate.

For my wife the auto liftgate was a necessity so I'm glad I ordered before the changes. However if I changed my order today the car would cost about 2k more for the premium package and I would have had to go with it for the auto liftgate and the accent LEDs. It would have also made my S85 order harder to justify and I'd have seriously considered the 70D even with the engine whine I noticed on the test drive.

DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Fri Apr 10, 2015 1:54 pm

I really like the new release of the 70. If it had been available when I purchased my S85, I probably would have gone with the 70. Range on the 60 wasn't quite enough for me, but the 70 has enough range that I would have been happy.

Re: the console---Tesla sells one after market, I personally have not missed a console in any way. I keep a lot less clutter in my car now. In previous cars things that went in the console would stay there for 2-3 years before I cleaned it out.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by airahcaz » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:15 pm

Loving the 70D. Has anyone bought a used Awd version (I guess only P85D) for a decent price vs new?
1) Invest you must 2) Time is your friend 3) Impulse is your enemy 4) Basic arithmetic works 5) Stick to simplicity 6) Stay the course. (Plagiarized, but worth stealing)

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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Apr 24, 2015 5:39 pm

dc81584 wrote:I simply do not believe in spending more than $25,000 on a car, so no, in my opinion, you should not purchase a Tesla.
How silly would it be if I said, "I simply do not believe in spending less than $75,000 on a car, so no, in my opinion, you should purchase a Tesla."

As I often say on this forum: that's what makes horse races.
Zero Net Carbon by 2019.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:32 pm

OMG! OMG! OMG!!!!!!!!!

The Tesla CPO website went live tonight and I glanced around. Found a nice 2013 Dolphin Gray 85 w/ Tech and Air Suspension, Panoramic moonroof, Black Leather Seats, and Obece Wood Gloss interior. No autopilot, no folding mirrors, no parking sensors, no AWD, no alcantara headliner, no fog lights, no upgraded stereo, but a full, 4-year/50k warranty from Tesla, the balance of the 8-year/unlimited mile battery/drivetrain warranty for $57,200 + tax. I reached out to my sales specialist, he verified the details of the car in their system, and I pulled the trigger. Now to scramble to get everything ready b/c I was originally waiting till June!

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:38 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:OMG! OMG! OMG!!!!!!!!!

The Tesla CPO website went live tonight and I glanced around. Found a nice 2013 Dolphin Gray 85 w/ Tech and Air Suspension, Panoramic moonroof, Black Leather Seats, and Obece Wood Gloss interior. No autopilot, no folding mirrors, no parking sensors, no AWD, no alcantara headliner, no fog lights, no upgraded stereo, but a full, 4-year/50k warranty from Tesla, the balance of the 8-year/unlimited mile battery/drivetrain warranty for $57,200 + tax. I reached out to my sales specialist, he verified the details of the car in their system, and I pulled the trigger. Now to scramble to get everything ready b/c I was originally waiting till June!
Wow, that's a heck of a deal, assuming it's a S85. Congrats!

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:59 pm

ualdriver wrote:Wow, that's a heck of a deal, assuming it's a S85. Congrats!
Yes. P85s seem to be in the mid-upper $60s and above. I've driven my neighbor's S85 and no need for the P for me (talk about Tesla spirit, 3 days after he got it he handed me the keys, said "enjoy and be back before six please!"). The other cars I regularly drive are a 2006 4Runner V6 4WD, a 2011 Honda Fit, and a 2010 Lexus IS250. The Tesla will easily outperform anything I'm used to.

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4nursebee
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Re: Tesla S

Post by 4nursebee » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:10 am

BBOGLE, was the car local to you or does TSLA ship the car to your nearest center?
4nursebee

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