Tesla S

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sambb
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Re: Tesla S

Post by sambb » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:54 am

matjen wrote:"so I found myself driving for 1.5 to 2.5 hours then stopping for 45 minutes to an hour to charge the car."

This actually sound miserable to me. I would think the newness of the car/toy (meant in the best sense of the word) and your first time being in those particular locations added quite a bit to your perceived pleasure. I would estimate 90% to your pleasure. I wonder if you had to make the drive again on a monthly basis or whatever would you consider this pleasurable? Or an effective use of time. If retired I suppose not as much of an issue.
+1. Stop every 2 hours? not for me.

Of note, Have a family member with a tesla, and in the winter the range was absolutely atrocious. Not even close to what was advertised by tesla. Warm weather might be better. Cold weather was very bad. Admittedly, it was a cold winter.

madbrain
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Re: Tesla S

Post by madbrain » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:24 am

ualdriver wrote: I think that ownership model will change with the advancement of self-driving car technology. I mean, what do cars do most of the day? They just sit there, parked, doing nothing. I'm a big car fan, but I'll be the first to admit that they are a waste of money, too.

When the technology gets to the point where you can summon a self-driving car, on demand, to your driveway, I doubt many people will "own" cars anymore. Maybe that is Elon Musk's vision too with the autopilot technology he is introducing to his Teslas.
I completely agree that self-driving cars will be a game changer.
This will be especially true for electric cars. One of the problems with charging is that the chargers are not typically located where you need to go. This is unlikely to change.
If the car can drop you off, then go drive itself to the nearest charger, and go get a charge on its own - maybe with inductive charging - it will be a huge plus.
Or if you own a car and are sitting at the office 8-10 hours a day, you could just load the Uber/Lyft/whatever app on your car, and have it drive a few people for money all on its own, until it's time to pick you up and drive you back home in the evening, and rest at night in your garage for a longer charge. Most likely, it will be much less expensive just to pay for trips than to own a car this way.
If you live in a non-urban area, you would still need to own one, though, as you may have trouble finding a 3r party ride otherwise in a timely fashion.

madbrain
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Re: Tesla S

Post by madbrain » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:25 am

sambb wrote:
matjen wrote:"so I found myself driving for 1.5 to 2.5 hours then stopping for 45 minutes to an hour to charge the car."

This actually sound miserable to me. I would think the newness of the car/toy (meant in the best sense of the word) and your first time being in those particular locations added quite a bit to your perceived pleasure. I would estimate 90% to your pleasure. I wonder if you had to make the drive again on a monthly basis or whatever would you consider this pleasurable? Or an effective use of time. If retired I suppose not as much of an issue.
+1. Stop every 2 hours? not for me.
Agree, not for me either.
Also not for me : long road trips.

madbrain
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Re: Tesla S

Post by madbrain » Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:28 am

flyingaway wrote: Today, you can summon a taxi to your driveway, or a rental car to your driveway on demand.
That depends on where you live - maybe you can, but I can't get a rental car dropped off to my house at the top of the hills.
And at most hours of the night, taxis will not come either.

amitb00
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Re: Tesla S

Post by amitb00 » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:07 am

There are two types of folks: one who own Tesla and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever. Where car gets newer by day, spend no time adding energy to it, and enjoy the ride. Then there are people who have not owned the car and think that this car can never suit them and how can folks buy this car. Over time more will join the first camp. There is huge wait time to get Tesla.

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matjen
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Re: Tesla S

Post by matjen » Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:50 am

amitb00 wrote:There are two types of folks: one who own Tesla and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever. Where car gets newer by day, spend no time adding energy to it, and enjoy the ride. Then there are people who have not owned the car and think that this car can never suit them and how can folks buy this car. Over time more will join the first camp. There is huge wait time to get Tesla.
"and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever"

And then there is Edmunds and Consumer Reports.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... ap-up.html
Bottom Line: The Model S is a fast, comfortable and technologically brilliant luxury sedan, but numerous problems with its touchscreen, tires and drivetrain make it hard to recommend.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm

Consumer Reports' Tesla Model S has more than its share of problems
Chronicling glitches in this luxury electric car

Admittedly I am just arguing to argue and think the car is great. Doesn't fit my requirements but still great.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:20 pm

sambb wrote: Of note, Have a family member with a tesla, and in the winter the range was absolutely atrocious. Not even close to what was advertised by tesla. Warm weather might be better. Cold weather was very bad. Admittedly, it was a cold winter.
What absolutely atrocious winter range were they getting? Cold weather has effects on winter range, but even a S60 should provide plenty of range in the winter.

hicabob
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Re: Tesla S

Post by hicabob » Thu Feb 12, 2015 1:01 pm

It appears TSLA stockholders have been subsidizing the Tesla owners purchase to a nice extent.


"'Our financials are better than they appear; not worse'" Cramer said, quoting Musk . "At the end of the day, Tesla lost $10,000 per car [last quarter]."

DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:50 pm

hicabob wrote:It appears TSLA stockholders have been subsidizing the Tesla owners purchase to a nice extent.


"'Our financials are better than they appear; not worse'" Cramer said, quoting Musk . "At the end of the day, Tesla lost $10,000 per car [last quarter]."
What people fail to realize when they focus solely on the numbers at this stage in the game is the tremendous costs associated with expanding the company right now. They are just now tapping into overseas markets. Sales in Europe have been tremendous, Tesla is the number one selling car in Norway. Take a look at the map of Superchargers in Europe, they are numerous. The Supercharger network continues to grow. Each new SC costs about $150K to build. Then you have all of the new service centers and galleries being built. They just opened their first location in Sydney, and have plans to build Superchargers along the eastern coast of Austrailia. Then you have the significant R&D costs associated with building the Model 3, and getting the Model X ready for production later this year. Not to mention the gigafactory being build which will be a game changer.

Those who focus on a quarterly report to judge the company are really missing the bigger picture. We are talking about a (still) young start up company who has built a game changer of a vehicle, with all the big established companies not even close to having a comparable product. Look back at the earliest pages of this thread and some were comparing it to the DeLorean, which is laughable given what they have accomplished.

Disclosure: I am a Tesla owner and a huge fan. Former stock holder who chose to take a profit after the big run up.

sambb
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Re: Tesla S

Post by sambb » Thu Feb 12, 2015 6:37 pm

Good luck to those holding TSLA. I wish I had shorted the stock.

jdb
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Re: Tesla S

Post by jdb » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:09 pm

Congrats DFWinvestor, glad that you made the purchase. And welcome to the ranks of those who believe in the vision and long term viability of this disruptive American company. Interesting phenomenon, that when this stock, which is definitely a roller coaster ride not for the faint of heart, goes way up, was near $300 not too long ago, no comments on this old thread, only seem to get snarky comments when goes down on occasion. Like DFWinvestor I took advantage of upswing to sell, but only enough to pay for Model S and future Model X with after tax LTCG, plan to hold balance till giga factory in production in 2018 and probably much longer. But need to enjoy the roller coaster ride and ignore the noise. And in meantime very much enjoying Model S, now with over 27K miles, though my wife now drives it most of time, and looking forward to delivery of Model X when it finally goes into production.
Last edited by jdb on Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

sschullo
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Re: Tesla S

Post by sschullo » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:29 pm

Ditto on Congratulating DFWinvestor. Also a Tesla owner but we could afford it because of the savings in investment costs over the last five years alone. We could have bought two with our cost savings in the last decade. We now pay .13 bps, when so many are paying 1.5 - 3.0%. A simple calculation comparison (13% vs. 2.0%) shows how much money is saved with a 7 figure portfolio.
We bought the car because it is built here with American workers, low maintenance costs, and the obvious advantage of free charging at many stations, not just Tesla super chargers. We also have solar panels, so our electric bill averages out to $35 per month for both house and two electric cars. We have the Leaf also.
I will never own the stock individually. I am happy with it in the total stock market index.
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knpstr
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Re: Tesla S

Post by knpstr » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:46 pm

sambb wrote:Good luck to those holding TSLA. I wish I had shorted the stock.
It's certainly an interesting speculation bet. Obviously electric cars and solar energy are the future... it is just a question of when is it arriving as a mainstream technology, and beyond that who are the "winners" going to be as far as corporations go. Tesla has huge investment in it's charging stations, battery factory, as well as cars.

I don't think they want to be just a "car company" like Musk's comparison to Apple's market cap, Apple just isn't a computer company.

It's a company with a lot of potential for those that want to take that bet, but certainly no guarantees by any means.
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

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knpstr
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Re: Tesla S

Post by knpstr » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:50 pm

matjen wrote: "and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever"

And then there is Edmunds and Consumer Reports.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... ap-up.html
Bottom Line: The Model S is a fast, comfortable and technologically brilliant luxury sedan, but numerous problems with its touchscreen, tires and drivetrain make it hard to recommend.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm

Consumer Reports' Tesla Model S has more than its share of problems
Chronicling glitches in this luxury electric car

Admittedly I am just arguing to argue and think the car is great. Doesn't fit my requirements but still great.
To be fair:

consumer reports rated it a 99/100 as well, the highest rating ever received
Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking. -Marcus Aurelius

DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:00 am

sschullo wrote: We bought the car because it is built here with American workers, low maintenance costs, and the obvious advantage of free charging at many stations, not just Tesla super chargers. We also have solar panels, so our electric bill averages out to $35 per month for both house and two electric cars. We have the Leaf also.
I will never own the stock individually. I am happy with it in the total stock market index.
Solar panels are a part of my long term plan as well. We are currently living in a 5-7 year home (may even stretch to 8-10 years who knows), but as soon as we are in a place we will settle down long term I plan to buy solar panels.

And I think I am with you on the individual stock. This was the only individual stock I have ever purchased (aside from one employee stock offering by my company, at a discount) and unless it drops off a cliff I won't buy back in. I will consider myself to be batting 1,000 with individual stock purchases and go with indexing in the future.

A lot of people here discouraged me from buying this car. "I have higher salary and more net worth than you and I would never consider spending that much on a car". Got a lot of comments like that in one thread. I bought it any way. :D

No regrets and I have a blast every day when I get behind the wheel. Driving was never something I enjoyed previously.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:25 am

DFWinvestor wrote: A lot of people here discouraged me from buying this car. "I have higher salary and more net worth than you and I would never consider spending that much on a car". Got a lot of comments like that in one thread. I bought it any way. :D

No regrets and I have a blast every day when I get behind the wheel. Driving was never something I enjoyed previously.
This is where I am as well. The Boglehead inside me says no, but I enjoyed driving more fun cars in the past and dislike driving now. Plus, what are we saving/investing for if not to live. Though still I haven't hit the bullet.

DFWinvestor
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Re: Tesla S

Post by DFWinvestor » Fri Feb 13, 2015 9:43 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote: A lot of people here discouraged me from buying this car. "I have higher salary and more net worth than you and I would never consider spending that much on a car". Got a lot of comments like that in one thread. I bought it any way. :D

No regrets and I have a blast every day when I get behind the wheel. Driving was never something I enjoyed previously.
This is where I am as well. The Boglehead inside me says no, but I enjoyed driving more fun cars in the past and dislike driving now. Plus, what are we saving/investing for if not to live. Though still I haven't hit the bullet.
I'll tell you what I did. I waited and waited and set a pretty high goal for down payment (30%). I wanted this money to not come from selling off investments, but instead from saving up specifically for the car, without cutting back on retirement contributions. I had a few setbacks along the way with other expenses which put the purchase on hold. I wound up putting close to 40% down, by the time I finally allowed myself to splurge. I was beginning to realize if I didn't go out and buy this car I might talk myself out of it, given how long I had already held off on the purchase, and I figured it was time to stop being a glutton for punishment.

Somehow I feared if I allowed myself this splurge there would be a "snowball effect" and I'd start spending a lot more on other unnecessary items as well. Well it turns out this has not been the case, I'm the same as I was before only I'm a lot happier when I get behind the wheel of my car.

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:01 am

I just hope that they start delivering the Model X in the 3rd or 4th quarter of 2015. As it is, I might have to put new tires on my Range Rover before then.

bigspender
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Re: Tesla S

Post by bigspender » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:14 am

I got one when it first came out. Sure it was about $100,000 after the rebate. I drive 50 miles each way to work and can charge at work or home and have a supercharging station close by. Just hit 100,00 miles on the car.

Honestly, it's a reliable car. And I like the fact that I don't have to waste time at the gas station or send money to the middle east.

If you have the money, it's a cool car. And it's nice and quit. I do go thru tires, on the 4th set now at $300 a piece.

Range loss is about 7-8%.

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BrandonBogle
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:49 pm

Well, I set some financial goals I "must" meet before I can purchase and I am on track for that around April this year. I also have no issue buying one used, so I'm looking at around $60k-$75k depending on options. I bought my last car new for $30k and its 8.5 years old now, so I don't have a problem holding onto cars for a number of years.

The hard part is that my current vehicle has nothing wrong with it. I could drive it for many more years without a concern about repair costs. But then I turn around and wonder about enjoying things. Looking at the average population (not us Bogleheads), the general recommendation is to save 10-15% and have 1x your annual income at 35. I save 25% (used to be more before raises) and have 4x my annual saved with a couple years to go before 35. Honestly, if it meant working just one more year because I splurged on the car, it would be worth it to me. But as a Boglehead, I think about how $30k ($70k - the $40k I would pay for another car after repairs and such) could grow and mean multiple years earlier retirement. Then I also think that I am currently on track for retirement in my mid-50s, so why not.

Anyways, I'm rambling and going off topic of the Tesla S itself. Thanks for humoring me gang!

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ualdriver
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:53 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:Well, I set some financial goals I "must" meet before I can purchase and I am on track for that around April this year. I also have no issue buying one used, so I'm looking at around $60k-$75k depending on options. I bought my last car new for $30k and its 8.5 years old now, so I don't have a problem holding onto cars for a number of years.

The hard part is that my current vehicle has nothing wrong with it. I could drive it for many more years without a concern about repair costs. But then I turn around and wonder about enjoying things. Looking at the average population (not us Bogleheads), the general recommendation is to save 10-15% and have 1x your annual income at 35. I save 25% (used to be more before raises) and have 4x my annual saved with a couple years to go before 35. Honestly, if it meant working just one more year because I splurged on the car, it would be worth it to me. But as a Boglehead, I think about how $30k ($70k - the $40k I would pay for another car after repairs and such) could grow and mean multiple years earlier retirement. Then I also think that I am currently on track for retirement in my mid-50s, so why not.

Anyways, I'm rambling and going off topic of the Tesla S itself. Thanks for humoring me gang!
Do it!!

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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:24 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:Well, I set some financial goals I "must" meet before I can purchase and I am on track for that around April this year. I also have no issue buying one used, so I'm looking at around $60k-$75k depending on options. I bought my last car new for $30k and its 8.5 years old now, so I don't have a problem holding onto cars for a number of years.

The hard part is that my current vehicle has nothing wrong with it. I could drive it for many more years without a concern about repair costs. But then I turn around and wonder about enjoying things. Looking at the average population (not us Bogleheads), the general recommendation is to save 10-15% and have 1x your annual income at 35. I save 25% (used to be more before raises) and have 4x my annual saved with a couple years to go before 35. Honestly, if it meant working just one more year because I splurged on the car, it would be worth it to me. But as a Boglehead, I think about how $30k ($70k - the $40k I would pay for another car after repairs and such) could grow and mean multiple years earlier retirement. Then I also think that I am currently on track for retirement in my mid-50s, so why not.

Anyways, I'm rambling and going off topic of the Tesla S itself. Thanks for humoring me gang!
The drawback to BH living is that it can become an end rather than a means. You LBYM and save,and that's what the goal is. Get the car and do so without guilt or buyer's remorse. My wife just replaced a perfectly good treadmill with a crazy expensive one -- it brings a smile to her face every time she runs on it.

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kenyan
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Re: Tesla S

Post by kenyan » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:53 pm

An electric car would only save me significant money if I also sprung for solar panels, or if gas prices go through the roof. Though I doubt gas prices will remain this low for long, at the current price of ~$2.70/gallon and $0.27-0.31 per marginal kWh, an electric car wouldn't save me squat if charged at home.

I am a little intrigued by the Tesla S and its current/future variants, but a lot needs to change before I could ever seriously consider it. Maybe if I magically win the Powerball, despite not buying any tickets.
Retirement investing is a marathon.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:42 pm

kenyan wrote:An electric car would only save me significant money if I also sprung for solar panels, or if gas prices go through the roof. Though I doubt gas prices will remain this low for long, at the current price of ~$2.70/gallon and $0.27-0.31 per marginal kWh, an electric car wouldn't save me squat if charged at home.

I am a little intrigued by the Tesla S and its current/future variants, but a lot needs to change before I could ever seriously consider it. Maybe if I magically win the Powerball, despite not buying any tickets.
I pay $0.084 per kWh and (as of 2/10/2015) $2.09/gallon. The other half as a Honda Fit for efficiency and racks in about 30k miles a year. If I had a Tesla, I would probably never see it! LOL. I just hit 82k after 8.5 years on the 4Runner!

On the flip side, I have thought of the Tesla Model S as a road tripping car. I enjoyed driving between FL and NC in a VW Eos, but hated it in my Toyota 4Runner. I have long dreamt of taking road trips across the US and Tesla's SuperCharger presence now makes that possible for us. I was originally planning to wait for the Model 3 to come out, but I realize that a) it keeps getting further and further delayed and b) the Model 3 is "comparable" in size to a BMW 3 or Lexus IS while the Model S is "comparable" in size to a BMW 7, Lexus LS, or MB S Class. Personally, my preference in vehicle size would be between those with a BMW 5 or Lexus GS, so the that tips the decision to the Model S. Couple that with the fact that I'm not afraid to buy used after someone else has eaten some of the depreciation for me, it isn't a stretch to get it when I decide to get the next car.

Thank you all. I have more to contemplate in the coming months!

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Johno » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:50 pm

I admire Musk and the technology of Tesla (Space-X too) is interesting to me. As of now though the car product is definitely not for money saving, and whether it (a more economy version) ever can be, especially without massive subsidies*, is a question, therefore the future of that company is too. The car wouldn't work for me. Actually I noticed a Tesla S in the parking building I use plugged into one of the utility outlets, that they have there for vacuum cleaners or power tools to maintain the garage. I got a chuckle out of it. Now *that's* cheap electricity, stealing it! But I wonder how long that will last. But otherwise no chargers there and obviously I don't have a home garage or I wouldn't be paying to park my car in that one. Also I've noticed at the Delaware rest stop where I often stop for gas (one way) between NY area and DC, they have fast chargers. So you'd sit in that garden spot for a couple or hours, have an extra Burger King meal? No thanks. :D But if it's fun for somebody to have one, it's totally fine. My car is nothing exotic, BMW 328i, but I'm sure lots of people here think that's unnecessary and extravagant too, a $2k junker would get me from point A to B too (probably), right? :wink: But I like to have a nice fun car, so can hardly carp at people who just like to drive a Tesla S.

*not to get into a policy debate, [OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:41 am

kenyan wrote:An electric car would only save me significant money if I also sprung for solar panels, or if gas prices go through the roof. Though I doubt gas prices will remain this low for long, at the current price of ~$2.70/gallon and $0.27-0.31 per marginal kWh, an electric car wouldn't save me squat if charged at home.

I am a little intrigued by the Tesla S and its current/future variants, but a lot needs to change before I could ever seriously consider it. Maybe if I magically win the Powerball, despite not buying any tickets.
This is early days in a technological revolution. And not all revolutions happen-- the technology may be stillborn. The steam car was technically superior to the Internal Combustion Engine gasoline powered car (then) but the ICE car won.

Wait. Not all technologies happen. And if you look at something like the PDA (remember those?) there were a lot of false starts before we got to the Ipad and the Iphone.

Conversely don't ignore the potential for a technological innovation, even one that appears to offer inferior performance, to disrupt an incumbent industry. Once it was seriously suggested that the use of the Apple Mac (the one with 128K of memory, I had a first Fat Mac (512k)) would be to index cooking recipes.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Sat Feb 14, 2015 9:48 am

Valuethinker wrote: Conversely don't ignore the potential for a technological innovation, even one that appears to offer inferior performance, to disrupt an incumbent industry. Once it was seriously suggested that the use of the Apple Mac (the one with 128K of memory, I had a first Fat Mac (512k)) would be to index cooking recipes.
I had one of the 128ks! It was surprisingly good. I eventually donated it to my school's computer technology museum. I can definitely see your point as that machine has paved the road for so much more!

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Re: Tesla S

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:33 am

I removed some off-topic comments related to energy policy. Please stay on-topic, which is about the Tesla S.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by 6miths » Sat Feb 14, 2015 12:26 pm

knpstr wrote:
matjen wrote: "and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever"

And then there is Edmunds and Consumer Reports.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... ap-up.html
Bottom Line: The Model S is a fast, comfortable and technologically brilliant luxury sedan, but numerous problems with its touchscreen, tires and drivetrain make it hard to recommend.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm

Consumer Reports' Tesla Model S has more than its share of problems
Chronicling glitches in this luxury electric car

Admittedly I am just arguing to argue and think the car is great. Doesn't fit my requirements but still great.
To be fair:

consumer reports rated it a 99/100 as well, the highest rating ever received
Not just the highest rating ever received, but the highest by a very wide margin.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by LadyGeek » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:24 pm

A few more posts were removed on the same topic (energy policy). If anyone has further comments, please PM me.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by oragne lovre » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:39 am

BrandonBogle wrote:
kenyan wrote:An electric car would only save me significant money if I also sprung for solar panels, or if gas prices go through the roof. Though I doubt gas prices will remain this low for long, at the current price of ~$2.70/gallon and $0.27-0.31 per marginal kWh, an electric car wouldn't save me squat if charged at home.

I am a little intrigued by the Tesla S and its current/future variants, but a lot needs to change before I could ever seriously consider it. Maybe if I magically win the Powerball, despite not buying any tickets.
I pay $0.084 per kWh and (as of 2/10/2015) $2.09/gallon. The other half as a Honda Fit for efficiency and racks in about 30k miles a year. If I had a Tesla, I would probably never see it! LOL. I just hit 82k after 8.5 years on the 4Runner!

On the flip side, I have thought of the Tesla Model S as a road tripping car. I enjoyed driving between FL and NC in a VW Eos, but hated it in my Toyota 4Runner. I have long dreamt of taking road trips across the US and Tesla's SuperCharger presence now makes that possible for us. I was originally planning to wait for the Model 3 to come out, but I realize that a) it keeps getting further and further delayed and b) the Model 3 is "comparable" in size to a BMW 3 or Lexus IS while the Model S is "comparable" in size to a BMW 7, Lexus LS, or MB S Class. Personally, my preference in vehicle size would be between those with a BMW 5 or Lexus GS, so the that tips the decision to the Model S. Couple that with the fact that I'm not afraid to buy used after someone else has eaten some of the depreciation for me, it isn't a stretch to get it when I decide to get the next car.

Thank you all. I have more to contemplate in the coming months!
Many people do not pay enough attention to safety aspect of a Tesla car. High-income Bogleheads, who still foresee many more fruitful years, should consider it.
I'm looking forward to Model X to replace my 300,000ish-mile Toyota that starts to show oil leak.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by matjen » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:50 pm

6miths wrote:
knpstr wrote:
matjen wrote: "and have the most satisfying car owning experience ever"

And then there is Edmunds and Consumer Reports.

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/20 ... ap-up.html
Bottom Line: The Model S is a fast, comfortable and technologically brilliant luxury sedan, but numerous problems with its touchscreen, tires and drivetrain make it hard to recommend.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news ... /index.htm

Consumer Reports' Tesla Model S has more than its share of problems
Chronicling glitches in this luxury electric car

Admittedly I am just arguing to argue and think the car is great. Doesn't fit my requirements but still great.
To be fair:

consumer reports rated it a 99/100 as well, the highest rating ever received
Not just the highest rating ever received, but the highest by a very wide margin.
To be fair, the Consumer Reports article I posted was AFTER they gave it that rating and reflected their more recent concerns based on more time with the vehicle. That is relevant and fair it seems to me. Since then perhaps they have shrugged them off. I have a fairly dim view of CR's car reviews though not their reliability reports.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by TomatoTomahto » Mon Feb 16, 2015 11:05 pm

oragne lovre wrote:Many people do not pay enough attention to safety aspect of a Tesla car. High-income Bogleheads, who still foresee many more fruitful years, should consider it.
I'm looking forward to Model X to replace my 300,000ish-mile Toyota that starts to show oil leak.
I most definitely consider the safety aspect. Even with moderately capable automotive engineers, the Tesla has inherent advantages over ICE vehicles. The icing is that Tesla can attract very talented automotive engineers. I also am awaiting my Model X.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Offshore » Sat Feb 21, 2015 9:20 pm

This week, I had the opportunity to test drive a P85D. Tesla's dual motor vehicle is so far ahead of anything out there, there are no apples to apples comparisons available. Who else updates their product via internet download (rhetorical)? The car I test drove has a downloadable firmware update that improves 0-60mph time from 3 sec. to 2.8 seconds. I will tell you, I am not a speedster, but this kind of acceleration (insane mode) is like nothing I have experienced short of a roller coaster.

The Tesla representative claims that in 2015, not only will auto parking become an available download, but it can do it without a driver. It sounds crazy, but he says the P85D has the capability (when the firmware is released) to let out its passengers, circle a parking lot until it finds a spot, park itself and shut down. Then, when summoned again, the car will return to the point of drop off and wait to be driven away!! Are you kidding me?!? He claims the firmware update will be available in 2015.

Here's some more cool technology it has now. First off, I was test driving from the Palm Springs, CA location. The driveway out to the street is a bit steep and on the way out, I ever so slightly scraped the ground with the nose of the car (underneath). There was certainly no damage (rep. didn't seem bothered). Well, when we returned from the test drive, the Tesla rep (in passenger seat) said I "won't have that problem on the way back up the drive." The reason? The car remembers when, and where, things like this happen. In this case, the car raised its suspension to provide more ground clearance and there was no scraping the drive.

I see amazing potential. The elderly may be mobile for many more years with cars that drive themselves. The roads may become safer. We may be able to do productive work while being driven by our cars. The list goes on...

The sticker on the P85D was over $100K, too rich for me. But if I had to choose between a Merc S class, Porsche or BMW with similar sticker prices...there is no choice, especially for a guy like me who lives in a snowy climate (AWD). As impressed as I was with the original Tesla S, the new P85D raises the bar a long way.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by airahcaz » Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:55 pm

Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by airahcaz » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:59 am

Can any owners, or anyone, please comment on the awd handling? Would you say it is subpar, on par, or above par with competitors?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by jdb » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:52 pm

airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
No difference in my experience, State Farm rates for our Model S now with 27K miles basically same as our Lexus LS 460. From my standpoint they should actually be less expensive since personal injury claims are highest insurance cost and Model S probably safest car for occupants ever produced. But as an all aluminum body vehicle it does cost more to repair from fender benders. How do I know that?

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Re: Tesla S

Post by airahcaz » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:00 pm

BrandonBogle wrote:
DFWinvestor wrote: A lot of people here discouraged me from buying this car. "I have higher salary and more net worth than you and I would never consider spending that much on a car". Got a lot of comments like that in one thread. I bought it any way. :D

No regrets and I have a blast every day when I get behind the wheel. Driving was never something I enjoyed previously.
This is where I am as well. The Boglehead inside me says no, but I enjoyed driving more fun cars in the past and dislike driving now. Plus, what are we saving/investing for if not to live. Though still I haven't hit the bullet.
I'm sure most if not all $100K cass do not follow tight Boglehead values, but glad you went ahead and bought it "to live". You haven't "hit the bullet"?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:01 pm

airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
Very similar to similarly priced high performance sedans I have owned in my experience. I did State Farm as well and the rates were very reasonable for a guy like me with a squeaky clean driving record and good credit. Also, per your comment above, it's not necessarily a $100K car, unless you want it to be. It's a $71K car (new/base, still nicely equipped) before federal and state (maybe) tax credits/rebates. Used, of course, can be had for cheaper.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:07 pm

jdb wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
No difference in my experience, State Farm rates for our Model S now with 27K miles basically same as our Lexus LS 460. From my standpoint they should actually be less expensive since personal injury claims are highest insurance cost and Model S probably safest car for occupants ever produced. But as an all aluminum body vehicle it does cost more to repair from fender benders. How do I know that?
I'm dreading an accident/incident with our aluminum bodies. I am *hoping* that now that the Ford F150 (best selling vehicle in the US) has an aluminum body, that the cost of repairing aluminum bodies will come down and will be much more commonplace.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by oragne lovre » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:13 pm

jdb wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
No difference in my experience, State Farm rates for our Model S now with 27K miles basically same as our Lexus LS 460. From my standpoint they should actually be less expensive since personal injury claims are highest insurance cost and Model S probably safest car for occupants ever produced. But as an all aluminum body vehicle it does cost more to repair from fender benders. How do I know that?
Do you know anything about estimated insurance cost for Model X? I also use State Farm and once asked my agent to estimate cost for X, he said X insurance cost would be similar to that for S. He couldn't say for sure though.
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Re: Tesla S

Post by jdb » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:22 pm

oragne lovre wrote:
jdb wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
No difference in my experience, State Farm rates for our Model S now with 27K miles basically same as our Lexus LS 460. From my standpoint they should actually be less expensive since personal injury claims are highest insurance cost and Model S probably safest car for occupants ever produced. But as an all aluminum body vehicle it does cost more to repair from fender benders. How do I know that?
Do you know anything about estimated insurance cost for Model X? I also use State Farm and once asked my agent to estimate cost for X, he said X insurance cost would be similar to that for S. He couldn't say for sure though.
I suspect the agent was correct. We are still probably 9 months if not longer from national sale of that vehicle.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by airahcaz » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:40 pm

ualdriver wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
Very similar to similarly priced high performance sedans I have owned in my experience. I did State Farm as well and the rates were very reasonable for a guy like me with a squeaky clean driving record and good credit. Also, per your comment above, it's not necessarily a $100K car, unless you want it to be. It's a $71K car (new/base, still nicely equipped) before federal and state (maybe) tax credits/rebates. Used, of course, can be had for cheaper.
Well, I'd need awd, and then might as well go for the 85kw. So that, first came out in 2014? And used in three years will be what approximately?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by BrandonBogle » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:09 pm

airahcaz wrote:I'm sure most if not all $100K cass do not follow tight Boglehead values, but glad you went ahead and bought it "to live". You haven't "hit the bullet"?
I haven't bought/ordered on yer. Targeting April or May if I do because of various things I have coming up in March.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by ualdriver » Sun Feb 22, 2015 8:47 pm

airahcaz wrote:
ualdriver wrote:
airahcaz wrote:Are auto insurance costs more or less for the S from other similarly priced vehicles?
Very similar to similarly priced high performance sedans I have owned in my experience. I did State Farm as well and the rates were very reasonable for a guy like me with a squeaky clean driving record and good credit. Also, per your comment above, it's not necessarily a $100K car, unless you want it to be. It's a $71K car (new/base, still nicely equipped) before federal and state (maybe) tax credits/rebates. Used, of course, can be had for cheaper.
Well, I'd need awd, and then might as well go for the 85kw. So that, first came out in 2014? And used in three years will be what approximately?
A new S85D (AWD) is $86K before FED/state credit/rebates. You have to get the 85kWh battery if you desire AWD, but you probably already knew that. Used 3 year old S85D? Maybe 30% depreciation on top of deducting for the original buyer's FED/state credit/rebates?

I corrected the $100K figure because IMO there's a stigma associated with a "$100K" car. As a supporter of the electrification of vehicles we use for personal transportation in the U.S., I just want to be clear that the Model S is not a "$100K car" to the uninformed reader. It's certainly not a cheap car, but the Model S can be had for a purchase price similar to other luxury high performance sedans, which run in the $50K to $80K range. One can certainly option out a Model S to well over $100K, but it can certainly be had for less than $100K, nicely equipped, if desired.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:37 pm

ualdriver wrote:
Well, I'd need awd, and then might as well go for the 85kw. So that, first came out in 2014? And used in three years will be what approximately?
A new S85D (AWD) is $86K before FED/state credit/rebates. You have to get the 85kWh battery if you desire AWD, but you probably already knew that. Used 3 year old S85D? Maybe 30% depreciation on top of deducting for the original buyer's FED/state credit/rebates?

I corrected the $100K figure because IMO there's a stigma associated with a "$100K" car. As a supporter of the electrification of vehicles we use for personal transportation in the U.S., I just want to be clear that the Model S is not a "$100K car" to the uninformed reader. It's certainly not a cheap car, but the Model S can be had for a purchase price similar to other luxury high performance sedans, which run in the $50K to $80K range. One can certainly option out a Model S to well over $100K, but it can certainly be had for less than $100K, nicely equipped, if desired.[/quote]

Debating about it being a 90k car (I would love to know how many they have sold without leather, dual chargers and the home charging cable. I sort of think of that base model as an imaginary one) or a 110k car is splitting hairs. It is expensive. But so is a BMW 5 series (lower performance about the same equipment. The S is sort of between 5 and 7 size wise) is about 70k. That~20k gap (after rebate) isn't huge if you figure you save 10-20k or so over the life of the car in gas.

Depreciation is going to be a total crap shoot. Short term it is going to be decent (the car is still in short supply and the only game in town). Long term it could be drastic (imagine they double the range and keep the cost the same in a new model in 3 years) and who the heck know what happens when the tax credit goes away (if it does). If I had to guess it is going to depreciate just like every other luxury car. You need to do some adjustments for the rebate (just like you need to do when you get a 5k manufactures rebate).

The tough part with cars like the tesla (hybrids have the same issue but it is more extreme in electric cars) is that we are not used to factoring in fuel savings when buying a car. How much are you willing to pay to save 1-2k/yr in gas? It would be pretty reasonable to pay 15k more for the same car.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by oragne lovre » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:14 pm

randomguy wrote:
ualdriver wrote:
Well, I'd need awd, and then might as well go for the 85kw. So that, first came out in 2014? And used in three years will be what approximately?
A new S85D (AWD) is $86K before FED/state credit/rebates. You have to get the 85kWh battery if you desire AWD, but you probably already knew that. Used 3 year old S85D? Maybe 30% depreciation on top of deducting for the original buyer's FED/state credit/rebates?

I corrected the $100K figure because IMO there's a stigma associated with a "$100K" car. As a supporter of the electrification of vehicles we use for personal transportation in the U.S., I just want to be clear that the Model S is not a "$100K car" to the uninformed reader. It's certainly not a cheap car, but the Model S can be had for a purchase price similar to other luxury high performance sedans, which run in the $50K to $80K range. One can certainly option out a Model S to well over $100K, but it can certainly be had for less than $100K, nicely equipped, if desired.
Debating about it being a 90k car (I would love to know how many they have sold without leather, dual chargers and the home charging cable. I sort of think of that base model as an imaginary one) or a 110k car is splitting hairs. It is expensive. But so is a BMW 5 series (lower performance about the same equipment. The S is sort of between 5 and 7 size wise) is about 70k. That~20k gap (after rebate) isn't huge if you figure you save 10-20k or so over the life of the car in gas.

Depreciation is going to be a total crap shoot. Short term it is going to be decent (the car is still in short supply and the only game in town). Long term it could be drastic (imagine they double the range and keep the cost the same in a new model in 3 years) and who the heck know what happens when the tax credit goes away (if it does). If I had to guess it is going to depreciate just like every other luxury car. You need to do some adjustments for the rebate (just like you need to do when you get a 5k manufactures rebate).

The tough part with cars like the tesla (hybrids have the same issue but it is more extreme in electric cars) is that we are not used to factoring in fuel savings when buying a car. How much are you willing to pay to save 1-2k/yr in gas? It would be pretty reasonable to pay 15k more for the same car.[/quote]


Wouldn't one need to worry about depreciation and extra cost if one plans to keep the car for a long period of time, e.g. 15-20 years, and to restrain from adding luxurious options?
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Re: Tesla S

Post by randomguy » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:25 pm

oragne lovre wrote:

Wouldn't one need to worry about depreciation and extra cost if one plans to keep the car for a long period of time, e.g. 15-20 years, and to restrain from adding luxurious options?
Depreciation over 20 years is easy. Call it 99% and you will be close enough for 99% of the cars out there:) As far as luxury features I wouldn't consider a charger so that you can fill up the car in less than 10 hours to be pretty much required equipment. Same thing with the cord you use every day. This really isn't picking on Tesla. Pretty much all the US and German car companies do the same thing.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:20 am

The tough part with cars like the tesla (hybrids have the same issue but it is more extreme in electric cars) is that we are not used to factoring in fuel savings when buying a car. How much are you willing to pay to save 1-2k/yr in gas? It would be pretty reasonable to pay 15k more for the same car.
(not sure who wrote this?)

If you are paying $75-110k for a car, whether it makes 20 mpg or 100 mpg is probably fairly irrelevant to you.

10k miles pa, 20 mpg = 500 gallons of gas a year. Let's say gas goes back up, and that costs you $2500. Multiply by 10 years, $25k. OK a Tesla saves you $2500 a year in those fairly extreme calculations. But of course there are plenty of luxury cars around that do 30 mpg plus, so the savings are reduced.
Wouldn't one need to worry about depreciation and extra cost if one plans to keep the car for a long period of time, e.g. 15-20 years, and to restrain from adding luxurious options?
Depreciation always counts.

If you buy a 50k car and use it for 10 years, residual value 0, then it cost you $5k a year to own it (plus insurance, gas etc.).

If you buy a 25k car and use it for 5 years, rv=0, it also cost you $5k a year to own it. But if you keep that car for 10 years, then it only cost you $2500 pa.

So if you own a 100k for 20 years, it cost you 5k a year depreciation. If you buy a 70k car, it only cost you $3500.

The notable thing is that certain sorts of cars (chiefly Toyotas and Hondas) don't depreciate as much in their early years as many other makes. So if you change your car every 5 years then you will notice this. This is probably a function of high demand plus reliability reputation-- so in years 5-10 you'll spend less on repairs if you keep it, as well.

I would note cars like Land Rovers seem to have high depreciation. So too did the big American SUVs (I don't know whether this was fuel economy or what). BMWs also have high depreciation I understand (a function, I think, of high repair costs in later years-- expensive parts and not many people do the repairs).

My father's Honda Accord managed 13 years. So did my brother's. Lowish mileage but 80% stop-and-go city driving. And this in Canadian winters with road salt etc.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tesla S

Post by prudent » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:46 am

Offshore wrote:The Tesla representative claims that in 2015, not only will auto parking become an available download, but it can do it without a driver. It sounds crazy, but he says the P85D has the capability (when the firmware is released) to let out its passengers, circle a parking lot until it finds a spot, park itself and shut down. Then, when summoned again, the car will return to the point of drop off and wait to be driven away!!
I wonder how insurance companies are going to cope with features like this. "While I was walking to my car in the parking lot, your unattended car drove into me" sounds like a nightmare scenario. 360-degree video recording could be a valuable complement to auto-driving.

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