buying a car- tell me your story

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pkcrafter
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buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

I'm thinking of buying a new car and I would like to hear how much to pay over invoice. I'll bet some of you Bogleheads have an interesting buying story.


Paul
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clearwater
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by clearwater »

There are lots of good books on buying cars; they have some useful tips.

What I've done: figure out the price I'm willing to pay, based on actual pricing, deducting things like the dealer holdback, adjustment for local inventory, whether the vehicle is "in demand", and so on. Find the dealer with the car I want on the lot, and alternates with something close (including the right feature group/options, color, etc).

Get a cashier's check made out to the dealer in the price I'm willing to pay. It usually amounts to the dealer making about $200, which seems fair enough for all the grief you're going to have to put up with. I get *three* of those check's made out in the names of three local dealers.

I go in on the last day of the fiscal quarter at 3 PM to the first dealer. Find the fleet manager, present my terms, mention I'd like to help them make their number for the quarter, then show the check. Tell him he's got 15 minutes to write up the paperwork while I inspect the vehicle. If at 15 minutes they're not ready, I pull out the other two checks in the pile and make sure he says *all three*, then say Thank You, and mention I'm moving on to their competitors since they clearly don't want my money. [At one dealership I asked to use the phone and even called their competitor's fleet manager and told him I was coming...I still get a kick out of the expression that caused!]

Then I walk out the door.

I've never, ever not had the fleet manager chase me into the parking lot.

I pay what I wanted, and not a penny more.

The next day I put the cash back from the unused checks.

New car sales is basically a ridiculous game of you versus them, and the "them" are basically going to try every trick in the book, so you need to turn the tables and get what you want. I'm not going to say they are *all* con-men, but ok, they're all con-men. Even the Mercedes dealers.

You can't trust *anybody* in a car dealership. It's essentially Vegas where the house wants to always win, just the flashing lights and cheap drinks are replaced by shiny sheet metal and sales-droids with bad suits.

Cash talks. I've bought BMW's and other cars by making it clear my time is valuable and I'm paying cash, so they need to straighten up and fly right otherwise I'm not wasting my energy.

For what it's worth, buying used if you "know cars" is much more interesting if the seller is also a knowledgable car guy (or woman). You'll get a better deal, feel like you don't need a shower, and not pay ridiculous depreciation. My last vehicle I purchased used and got a phenomenal deal. So much so that I'm in the market for something else and will probably buy the next thing used as well. But I can rebuild a car from the engine out, so that all factors into the comfort level of buying "new" or "new to me".
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JMacDonald
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by JMacDonald »

Hi,
The internet has taken much of the hassle out of buying a new car.

First, shop around and know exactly what kind of car you want and what options.

Then email all of the dealers in your area, or however far you are willing to drive to buy the car. All dealers have interest sales office. Tell the dealer what you want and ask for the out-the-door price. That way there are no little surprises when you close the deal. If the dealer tries to change the deal after you are given a price, just walk. I did that. I think they were in a state of shock that someone would just get up and walk out. Also, my deal was simple: no trade in, and I paid in cash.

By using the internet, you get a good price without the hassle.
Best Wishes, | Joe
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ClevrChico
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by ClevrChico »

Long story short, I offered a regional volume dealer the Edmund's TMV price, and they accepted it. It was a cash purchase, very simple. You can compare Edmund's price to truecar.com's to verify accuracy against what other's are paying.

I like the idea of having cashier checks made out ahead of time too, very smart. If things get complicated, the dealer will take complete advantage of you. I had one dealer play dumb on a rebate, I'm guessing they were going to pocket it themselves. They didn't get the sale.

Also, if you ask for the "rock bottom" price, you probably aren't going to get it. When someone does that to me, they don't get rock bottom, as I haven't qualified them as a serious buyer. I know dealers HATE playing a bidding war if they think you're a tire kicker. They are generally getting their time wasted this way, although I don't have any sympathy for them.
Last edited by ClevrChico on Sun Jul 01, 2012 8:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cheesepep
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cheesepep »

Go online and find their webpage; find their fleet sales or online sales email address.

Ask them their lowest out the door price including all taxes (make sure you know eaxctly what kind of car you want with all options)

Go to dealership and test drive the car, and if you like it, buy it.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by friar1610 »

Depending on what banks, credit unions, insurance companies you might do business with, check and see if they have a "buying service." For example, USAA (with whom I have all of my insurance) has a buying service. You can plug in the specs of the car you want and get guaranteed prices for dealers in your area. Even if you don't use one of those dealers, you at least have a price above which you don't have to pay. If you don't show the dealer that at the beginning but trot it out later in the negotiation, it can be a good tool.

I bought a car last fall from a local dealer who was not a member of the USAA plan but got a price slightly lower than the USAA price by using the USAA price as a bargaining chip.

Good luck.
Friar1610 | 50-ish/50-ish - a satisficer, not a maximizer
cacophony
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

The invoice number you can find online is meaningless. It gives you zero indication of how much to pay. Dealers make money all sorts of ways that aren't reflected in that number. Two examples being holdback and incentives, some of which are unpublished and dealer specific. The last 3 cars I bought were for thousands under invoice and the dealers still made money.

The only way to arrive at the true bottom line price is to use competitive bidding:
http://bigthink.com/ideas/41819
tibbitts
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by tibbitts »

Some in-demand new cars will sell for more than MSRP; other cars can be bought for below invoice. Figuring out the MSRP is usually easy; figuring out invoice is more complicated. If you want a certain car and explore all the options available to you (get prices from any dealers you want to buy from, and from any buying services you might choose to use), you're close to the best price you can get. Some people will drive hundreds of miles to get the absolute lowest price on a car - it's sort of a hobby for them, like chasing a .01% difference in fund expense ratios, or constantly switching banks to get the highest rate on savings, or shuffling 17 credit cards to get the maximum possible rebate.

Paul
Atilla
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Atilla »

I've never settled for anything on the lot. So - I decide what I want; communicate to a couple-few dealers EXACTLY what I'm looking for (color, options, etc). Then I prepare myself to wait while one of them coughs it up at the price I'm willing to pay. It ends up being a factory order or a dealer trade but the payoff is I get what I want - no more no less. At the price I'm willing to pay. Ad I do give them a couple-few bucks over invoice. Those folks do have to make a living.

Buying from dealer stock off the lot is way too much of a compromise. Why settle for less than exactly what you want when you're going to be driving the thing around for years and years and years?
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by SnapShots »

Women ain't got no respect and can't get the deal a man can. All car negotiating is passed on to DH. :twisted: Oh, we can play good cop, bad cop. But, I've yet get the deal DH gets. One has to pick their battles and this is over to him.
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MrMiyagi
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by MrMiyagi »

So how exactly do you find out what is "a good price?" My only experience was negotiating a honda accord ~1700 below MSRP. I figured it was probably a decent deal but how does one find out how much the dealer is buying the car for, how much kickbacks/factory incentives they get...
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by scrabbler1 »

There is always the old standby, the Consumer Reports Bottom Line car buying aid where you can buy a report ($14 for the first car, $12 for each additional car) showing the dealer cost for the car and each of its options. A given report will show this for a family of cars within the same general make/model.

And about 20 years ago, I bought this great little book by Leslie Sachs who was once a car salesman. It cost me about $4 new back in 1991.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Your-Rock-Bot ... 0451149610
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by The Wizard »

pkcrafter wrote:I'm thinking of buying a new car and I would like to hear how much to pay over invoice. I'll bet some of you Bogleheads have an interesting buying story.


Paul
That's not how it works, Paul.
It's supply & demand.
I've seen cars sell for a few K over sticker price in years gone by, the newish Thunderbird most recently.
Find a car model with dozens on the back lot and now you're ready to make a deal...
Attempted new signature...
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Tycoon »

Negotiated the total out-the-door price for the exact configuration of the car I wanted via email. One email asking about price, and another asking if the dealership would beat or match my offer. The internet salesman beat my lowest offer by $200. I walked in with a check for the agreed amount, handed over the check and drove away with the car. Total time spent at the dealership was 30 minutes or less.
Emotionless, prognostication free investing. Ignoring the noise and economists since 1979. Getting rich off of "smart people's" behavioral mistakes.
cacophony
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

scrabbler1 wrote:There is always the old standby, the Consumer Reports Bottom Line car buying aid where you can buy a report ($14 for the first car, $12 for each additional car) showing the dealer cost for the car and each of its options. A given report will show this for a family of cars within the same general make/model.
The "dealer cost" that CR provides is the same info that Zagg/Truecar provide, and it's useless. It's essentially invoice - incentives - holdback. The problem is that there are now all sorts of other unpublished and often dealer specific incentives to help dealerhips make more profit, and CR has no way of finding out about those.

For my last car, the CR pricing report said the dealer cost was ~$18.5k. I paid $17.2k. The only way this was possible was through competitive bidding.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by jeff1949 »

cacophony wrote:
scrabbler1 wrote:There is always the old standby, the Consumer Reports Bottom Line car buying aid where you can buy a report ($14 for the first car, $12 for each additional car) showing the dealer cost for the car and each of its options. A given report will show this for a family of cars within the same general make/model.
The "dealer cost" that CR provides is the same info that Zagg/Truecar provide, and it's useless. It's essentially invoice - incentives - holdback. The problem is that there are now all sorts of other unpublished and often dealer specific incentives to help dealerhips make more profit, and CR has no way of finding out about those.

For my last car, the CR pricing report said the dealer cost was ~$18.5k. I paid $17.2k. The only way this was possible was through competitive bidding.
+1

I used Consumer Reports, Costco buying program and Carwoo. None of these got me my lowest price on a Camry Hybrid that I purchased in March. Find out the email addresses for the dealer's internet sales manager in your area and email them for the best price on exactly what you want.

After your initial contacts of several dealers pick out your lowest bid and then give the other dealers a 2nd chance by letting them know what your lowest bid was. Repeat as necessary until you reach your lowest price. Worked like a charm for me!
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

Thanks, excellent advice and some great stories.

In clearwater's story about having three cashiers checks, or simply calling dealers and giving the "willing to pay price" isn't it likely that when comparing cars one may be the same as another except for maybe one different option that will change the actual MSRP? Because of that, I assume the check must be made for a specific VIN.

I suppose if there is a trade in, it gets a lot more murky on how much you are actually paying in total. The problem would be the same for a used car because there is no MSRP. With either the trade in or a used car, you are dealing with opinions. If there was a trade in, how should that be handled? Settle on the price of the new car first--don't mention a trade in?

The Wizard wrote:
That's not how it works, Paul.
It's supply & demand.
I've seen cars sell for a few K over sticker price in years gone by, the newish Thunderbird most recently.
Find a car model with dozens on the back lot and now you're ready to make a deal...
Don't forget, I'm a Boglehead and I won't pay no stinkin' premium. :happy You can at least get average sales prices from Edmunds as CleverChico mentioned, and you can make any offer you want. If you are way off base, you won't get the car. Of course, the sales person will always tell you you are off base, so you do need some pre-established limit. A lot of the above advice helps in avoiding the sales game.


Paul
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

If you ask a dealer for the invoice, must they provide it?

Paul
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by prudent »

pkcrafter wrote:If you ask a dealer for the invoice, must they provide it?

Paul
No, and even if they did show me something they said WAS the invoice I wouldn't assume it was legit.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

pkcrafter wrote:If you ask a dealer for the invoice, must they provide it?

Paul
Invoice is what a dealer pays for a car. You can easily get this information and I'm sure most dealerships would happily provide it. But what use is it?

Most dealers have unpublished incentives with manufacturers, such as for every XYZ they sell this month they'll get $500 cash, and if they sell over 50 cars they'll get $1000 per car (I'm just making these numbers up but you get the idea). These days the invoice is just a distraction to make people think they're getting a great deal, when the reality is that the dealership is potentially making thousands of dollars.

A dealership that sells at invoice might be making $200 profit or $5000 profit. You have no way of knowing, so negotiating based on invoice isn't a good way to get a fair price.
Last edited by cacophony on Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
scrabbler1
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by scrabbler1 »

While I agree that getting dealers to bid against each other is a good method, it assumes a few things which won't always be true in real life.

The first is assuming that each dealer has on their lot the same car you want. And this also assumes that you are not special-ordering the car you want. According to Sachs's (he was a former car salesman) book, buying a car off the lot will help you get a better deal than ordering one from the carmaker because it costs the dealer to keep a car on its lot so you can get an edge in your negotiations. (In my case, the last time I bought a car, it had been sitting in the lot for a few weeks as others came and went quickly. I saw this in the dealer's website which showed current inventory.)

Next is that you assume there are a number of dealers which are reasonably close to where you live, and those dealers are equally accessible. In my case, I bought the car in the middle of the winter when we had some recent snowstorms, so I was hardly eager to drive all over the place in some bad weather and/or on some icy roads. Thankfully, the dealer closest to where I live was the one which had the car I wanted.

I do not expect to learn about secret dealer holdbacks (which were mentioned in Sachs' book), that is why they are secret. But the CR price report gave me advice on the dealer cost and along with the tips from CR and in Sachs' book enabled me to eliminate the cost of several costly dealer add-ons in my negotiations. I did not consider the CR price report useless given my circumstances which are likely to be similar to those of other car buyers (perhaps the OP, too?).
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Toons »

JMacDonald wrote:Hi,
The internet has taken much of the hassle out of buying a new car.

First, shop around and know exactly what kind of car you want and what options.

Then email all of the dealers in your area, or however far you are willing to drive to buy the car. All dealers have interest sales office. Tell the dealer what you want and ask for the out-the-door price. That way there are no little surprises when you close the deal. If the dealer tries to change the deal after you are given a price, just walk. I did that. I think they were in a state of shock that someone would just get up and walk out. Also, my deal was simple: no trade in, and I paid in cash.

By using the internet, you get a good price without the hassle.
+1
I did the same,emailed the Honda dealers,
got out the door price from 3 dealers ,chose the best offer,drove to dealership ,left with Honda Fit Sport :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
cacophony
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

scrabbler1 wrote: The first is assuming that each dealer has on their lot the same car you want. And this also assumes that you are not special-ordering the car you want. According to Sachs's (he was a former car salesman) book, buying a car off the lot will help you get a better deal than ordering one from the carmaker because it costs the dealer to keep a car on its lot so you can get an edge in your negotiations. (In my case, the last time I bought a car, it had been sitting in the lot for a few weeks as others came and went quickly. I saw this in the dealer's website which showed current inventory.)
There are lots of fleet managers who are willing to do dealer trades or port redirections to acquire the exact car you want. I once had a fleet manager flat bed a car over 500 miles for me for a price that was lower than dealers which had it on the lot. And it's quite common for fleet managers to do dealer trades within about 100 miles. Price flexibility is far more influenced by dealer specific situations/arrangements with manufacturers than it is by current inventory.

Also, in certain cases having the car on the lot means a lower price. If the dealer knows you have very specific requirements, and they know they're the only dealer within 50 miles that has the car you want why would they be motived to give a good price? I learned this one the hard way. The dealer that had the car I wanted wasn't willing to budge on price. Other local dealerships were willing to do a dealer trade and sell the car for less, but the dealer that had it wouldn't agree to the trade because they knew I wanted it! :D
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by AnimalCrackers »

I've had two recent good experiences buying cars through carbargains.com.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by larrydmsn »

I bought an SUV just this past Saturday June 30th.

I had done quite some research and knew exact what I wanted. I emailed a few dealers on Wednesday and got two OK quotes, about $200 below the market average price listed on carsdirect.com and $500 below the market average price on truecar.com. But reading edmunds forum giving me impression that it could go significant lower if I got lucky. So I emailed a few more dealers. Two claimed they could beat it but wanted me to go to their dealerships in person to give me the exact price, which I declined. Others either told me they didn't want to go to a bidding war or they didn't have the car I wanted. So things were not so rosy for me.

On Friday I emailed a few more dealers farther from where I live. One quickly quoted a price that was $500 lower than the best price I got. I realized this dealer was selling at dealer cost as shown on truecar.com. Seeing the dealer might be desperate to hit sales target I asked for another $200 off on Saturday morning (I actually had a valid reason as the MSRP had $220 charge for a premium color which I didn't really care for) and they agreed. At this point part of me thought they were really desperate and I could push for more concession, but in the end being a nice guy I thought I shouldn't push them too hard. So I asked for a final breakdown of all prices, fees and TTL and the out the door price and told them I would pay just the out the door price and nothing more.

I went to the dealership that afternoon, everthing went fine with one minor incident that the paperwork guy forgot to take manufacturer's customer rebate from the price and I caught it quickly and he apologized. Maybe it was intentional but anyway the transaction went smoothly. In the end I paid about $1700 below the so called invoice price and $1200 below the average market price, and $300 below dealer cost as shown on truecar.com. I saw some pople got more than $3000 below the invoice for higher trims but I comforted myself that it might be because the higher trims had price-inflated options installed on them the first place.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by larrydmsn »

BTW, to put the numbers in perspective, in my post above the SUV's invoice price is about $30,000
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by englishgirl »

Toons wrote:
JMacDonald wrote:Hi,
The internet has taken much of the hassle out of buying a new car.

First, shop around and know exactly what kind of car you want and what options.

Then email all of the dealers in your area, or however far you are willing to drive to buy the car. All dealers have interest sales office. Tell the dealer what you want and ask for the out-the-door price. That way there are no little surprises when you close the deal. If the dealer tries to change the deal after you are given a price, just walk. ..snip...

By using the internet, you get a good price without the hassle.
+1
I did the same,emailed the Honda dealers,
got out the door price from 3 dealers ,chose the best offer,drove to dealership ,left with Honda Fit Sport :happy
+2, although I was doing it with Toyota dealers. I used the Toyota "request for internet quote" or whatever it was called, which automatically got prices from 3 dealers. I emailed 2 or 3 more (that were either closer to me than the ones selected by the Toyota website or still within easy driving distance. I also checked Carmax, the American Express car buying program, and the Costco car buying program. I emailed back and forward with a few to try to beat the lowest price I'd been offered, and most said that they couldn't/wouldn't beat it.

The internet has made this whole thing so much easier.

What use is it to me to try to figure out exactly how much profit the dealer is making so I know what they paid and whether the invoice price is real or not? What matters to me is what is the best price *I* can get a car for, without too much effort. I expect that I'm going to get hosed somehow - it's important to me not to get hosed too badly, and that I am not traumatized by the whole process. You might get the same car for $200 less, but that $200 might be worth it to me to avoid having to haggle in person for several hours. Luckily for me, the dealer that I would have picked based on them being nice guys (I'd been out to 3 dealers to test drive a few weeks previously) were also the cheapest. The car I bought was not on the lot, but then in an urban area with smaller lots and high turnover, the importance of buying off the lot seems lower.
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Frobie
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Frobie »

I can tell you how to NOT buy a car.

1) Only have one shared car in the household, so if/when it were to die it would be a BFD. This is important.

2) Have a hard time agreeing with your spouse about what car to buy to replace your existing, 13-year-old vehicle, until …

3) …said vehicle develops a coolant leak, requiring you to drive around with a large jug of coolant in the trunk at all times so you can top things off when necessary. (And it's frequently necessary.)

4) Decide that yes, it’s finally time to buy a new car, except that now the one make and model you both could kinda, sorta agree on is no longer being manufactured.

5) Unexpectedly discover that a dealer in your city has one such new car available for sale (which would turn out to allegedly be the last ever sold in your region of the country).

6) Pull up to dealership and park old car while sales staff watches coolant pour out from engine.

Not that any of this ever happened to *me*, of course. :mrgreen:

(This was six years ago, and we're both still extremely happy with our purchase if not the "deal" we got on it.)
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by LadyGeek »

pkcrafter wrote:I'm thinking of buying a new car and I would like to hear how much to pay over invoice. I'll bet some of you Bogleheads have an interesting buying story.
Want a good story? Look at this thread: New Car Buying: Updated with the full story, especially this post: The LONG story of how it went:)

There seem to be a lot of "buying new car" threads floating around. I was on the fence on whether it was time to get a new car. I'm now off the fence and starting my new car hunt. :)
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pkcrafter
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

Thanks, Sue, that's a good story.

Paul
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by arkerr123 »

You should not pay over invoice. Invoice is not what dealers pay for a car. Well, it is what they pay for the car upfront, but once they sell the car to you, the manufacturer sends an extra check (generally a few hundred) to the dealer for selling the vehicle.

I went looking for a diesel Jetta. I then found that the diesel jettas that were 3 years old with 50K miles were the same price as new.
Ended up looking at a VW CC and fell in love. I stalked cars.com and found that a dealership had a VW cc with 31K miles on it for 21K. It had been on the lot for 6 months. Clean carfax.
I negotiated via email with them on it (knowing they did not want to have a car on their lot for that long). I got them down to 18.5K which is what Kbb.com stated was trade in value.


I highly recommend looking at certified used, searching cars.com, and checking the cars by the carfax. Carfax lists how long a car has been at a dealership, and you can use that as leverage.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by jayars35 »

My last vehicle, we were looking for a minivan. I was not satisfied with local dealers had so I went to a local guy that has a small lot, but will buy whatever you want at auction. His fee is a flat $600. I went with him to the auction and it reminded me of the tobacco auctions I went to as a kid. There were 15 lanes of cars being auctioned non stop. Each vehicle took less than a minute. My limits were $12,000 and under 20,000 miles. Before it started we spotted a 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan. It had 9,000 miles and was in great shape.

Bidding started at $12,500. My dealer asked if I would go 12-5 and I said yes. Sold! Plus it still had 21,000 miles and two years of factory warrenty. I drove the van home while he drove home an SUV he bought for someone else. Met him at his office, wrote him a check and that was it. No dealer nonsense, bs, "I'm your friend", etc. The whole purchase: bidding process~1 minute, write check and do paperwork~20 minutes. My next purchase I'll go back to him although I doubt I will go to the auction.

The local dealers had minivans all over 25,000 miles and $18,000.

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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Fallible »

You've already got plenty of good stories and advice here, but if in the end your car choice should happen to boil down to color the way mine once did, here's my story. I decided on the car I wanted at the price I thought was right, but when I saw the car, it was white and I hated it. I told the salesman and he said, "No problem. Look at it this way. How often are you going to see the color?" I said, "Huh?" And he said, "The only time you'll see the color is when you're walking to to the car to get in it. The rest of the time you'll be in the car and you won't even know what color it is."
:annoyed
I got a blue car.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by ilmartello »

All that is said here is good advice, but don't be surprised if you don't always get thousands below invoice. Some cars are in demand, and just because you will not pay a lot of money for it, that doesn't mean someone else won't. A car that comes to mind is the 2012 Ford Mustang Coupe GT Premium.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by reggiesimpson »

I would love to be able to contribute to your question. Unfortunately i havent bought a new car since 1997. The thrill of buying new ended quickly as it immediately dropped in value so now i only buy used. But like other posters it appears that the internet is a wonderful source to evaluate what you should be spending.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

reggiesimpson wrote:I would love to be able to contribute to your question. Unfortunately i havent bought a new car since 1997. The thrill of buying new ended quickly as it immediately dropped in value so now i only buy used. But like other posters it appears that the internet is a wonderful source to evaluate what you should be spending.
I'm also going to consider used. I see some good, low mileage cars with factory warranties for much less $$.


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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by BigD53 »

When I buy my next vehicle, I will insist on getting every last detail of the transaction in writing... not just the negotiated purchase price.

In years past, I feel I did a fairly good job of negotiating the basic "price" with the salesperson. But that doesn't mean anything once you get into the next office where they write up the paperwork. That's where the dealer really makes his profit... and tacks on all that extra stuff. "Document Fees", "Transfer Fees", "Dealer Prep Fees", "Transportation Charge", "Dealer Holdback", etc, etc.

Come to find out, all those items can be negotiated too! I will no longer pay 500 bucks for the documents to be typed up! (Doc Fee). I will no longer pay $500 for them to wash the darn car! (Dealer Prep.) And of course, I would never ever buy that rip-off "extended warranty", which doesn't "extend" a darn thing! It's starts from day one. But they don't tell you that.

I want to see every last stinkin detail in that sales contract... and then, and only then, will I begin the real price negotiation. The "out the door" price.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by BigD53 »

I did some light checking. Most new car dealers in my area still charge $500 for the Documentation Fee. However, some will lower that charge to $200 or $300. So that "fee" is definitely negotiable.

And for used cars, the "Doc Fee" at some places is only 50 bucks! Why the huge difference? They are doing the same amount of paperwork!

And I would insist they eliminate the "Dealer Prep" fee altogether... or I walk. 500 bucks to throw in the floor mats, and drive the car through an automated car wash?! No way. When I was younger (and dumber) I just blindly paid those fees. :annoyed
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by LadyGeek »

I just test drove one of my top choices. Darn, the other 2 dealers I was going to visit are closed for the holiday. I almost turned around and went back to close the deal. Almost. Tomorrow, I'll test drive the other contender and then decide. This gives me time to hone the target prices for negotiation.

I'm going to trade-in my car as part of the deal, but negotiate as far as I can. In my mind, I don't care whether I get more for the trade or the new car. It's a package deal. I've already got my "old" car cleared out and have title in hand.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

BigD53 wrote:I did some light checking. Most new car dealers in my area still charge $500 for the Documentation Fee. However, some will lower that charge to $200 or $300. So that "fee" is definitely negotiable.

And for used cars, the "Doc Fee" at some places is only 50 bucks! Why the huge difference? They are doing the same amount of paperwork!

And I would insist they eliminate the "Dealer Prep" fee altogether... or I walk. 500 bucks to throw in the floor mats, and drive the car through an automated car wash?! No way. When I was younger (and dumber) I just blindly paid those fees. :annoyed
There are a million different ways dealers can make money. The Doc Fee is one of them. Doc Fee = Dealer Profit.
In your area it sounds like they can get away with categorizing part of their profit as a Doc Fee. All you should really care about is the final out the door price (including all taxes and fees), and how it compares to what others are paying.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by pkcrafter »

LadyGeek wrote:I just test drove one of my top choices. Darn, the other 2 dealers I was going to visit are closed for the holiday. I almost turned around and went back to close the deal. Almost. Tomorrow, I'll test drive the other contender and then decide. This gives me time to hone the target prices for negotiation.

I'm going to trade-in my car as part of the deal, but negotiate as far as I can. In my mind, I don't care whether I get more for the trade or the new car. It's a package deal. I've already got my "old" car cleared out and have title in hand.
Have the total of what you will pay in mind including taxes. Have the amount you expect from the trade-in in mind. Get an out-the-door price that is complete with all those fees mentioned above plus taxes and compare to the price you want to pay minus the trade in, and don't let them smooze you.


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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by Mudpuppy »

Now here's a thing I've noticed in my latest round of looking at dealer inventory: the listed MSRP for a "Base" model at the local dealership was 5k over what the manufacturer's website has listed for the base model. Then I looked at a random smattering of dealerships nearby and noticed the same thing. They were all using the same web inventory software, so perhaps that software misclassified the inventory as the "base" model instead of one with options/packages installed. There are options and packages which would raise the MSRP up to what the dealership listed, but these were not specified as installed anywhere on the web inventory.

This makes me wonder if it really is a software glitch or if dealers are starting to obfuscate the options installed on their dealer inventory so people cannot effectively price hunt on the Internet.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by LadyGeek »

I'm finding that physical inventory doesn't match online inventory. The car I test drove today wasn't listed on the dealer's website.

It's important to note that what I drove was not the exact model I'm interested in. The difference is in the options and drive train (all wheel drive vs. 2 wheel drive). However, it will handle exactly like the car I want.

That's the purpose of the test drive - a sanity check to be sure that this is what you expect. You can't tell from pictures if the seat is comfortable ("contoured" to fit) or that a certain feature is really nice to have once you see it in person.

To determine pricing, I went to the websites in this thread: Edmunds, KBB and NADA

pkcrafter - Thanks for the advice. It's the other way around - the sales person has to deal with me. :wink:
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by paddyshack »

+1 for emailing dealerships internet sales folks with specs on what you want and get their prices. The dealership closest to me wouldn't match another dealships price when I went on location, and actually let me walk away with no resistence. With that, I was confident I was getting a decent deal, and drove the extra distance to make the purchase on a pre-negotiated price. Other than trying to sell me a few extras (which were easily refused) it was quite painless.

Seems to me another 100+ year occupation is evaporating due to technology.
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I bought a black car on the hottest day of the year

Post by LadyGeek »

Tips on researching a car:
- Check the driving enthusiast forums, where you'll find deep-dive discussions on everything about the car. I had to decide between 2 options, the forum straightened me out. Google should be able to find them for you.
- Call your insurance company. I haven't seen anyone mention insurance costs. Once I knew which of 2 possible cars I wanted, I gave them a call. My first choice "A" was $50 / 6 months cheaper than I'm paying now. My second choice "B" was about the same as I'm paying now. Don't be surprised after the sale. The insurance company is happy to help. It's much easier to take about a minute on the phone then plowing through internet quotes. You'll get an exact number tailored for your policy.

After deciding that I didn't like my test drive with choice "B", I'm now the proud owner of my first choice "A." There's nothing like doing this in person. The salesman told me that if someone shows up in person, instead of by email, they know you are serious and will work with you more. I'm glad I did, because I got broadsided by my trade-in.

First, we worked on the new car pricing. I got $94 above the the kbb.com "fair purchase" price ($134 above the Edmunds.com "True Market Value"). I'd say that's fair. This is a very high demand car, I wasn't expecting to have much room for negotiation.

Next, we worked on the trade-in. They low-balled me on the price. Why? The air conditioning wasn't working. The A/C was acting like there was more wrong than just needing refrigerant, I just never got around to checking it out. (I never run the A/C, which is not what you are supposed to do.) I was honest and told them it was running warm. Air conditioning repairs are not cheap.

I pulled out my hard copy of the kbb.com trade-in value. They were offering $400 below "Fair" condition (trade-in value if something isn't working). No. After consultation between the salesman and the manager, they upped the offer $500 which was $100 over the "Fair" condition. This was as far as he was willing to go, since he didn't know what was wrong. Do I want to gamble on a possible $500+ repair on a 9 year old car that I'm about to sell? No. I closed the deal.

What color do I want? Black is in-stock, red and "metallic" were due any day. I really liked the black and went with that. It was also the test car I drove yesterday.

On to finance. After refusing the obligatory extended warranty, a few other things, and a Simonize coating (I can't believe they still offer this), the finance person asked for my check. Check? :shock: The salesman never mentioned anything about money, I assumed that they would take my trade-in for collateral. The look on the finance person's face was priceless... No.

OK, just write a personal check, let us know when the money is good and we'll deposit it then. We have a form for that. A quick dash home, ACH transfer, and return with checkbook in hand. Done.

I had to ask. When my better half purchased his used car last year, he had to take out a loan as collateral to get it out the door (we paid by cashier's check a few days later, the loan paperwork was not submitted). Why are you letting me write a personal check and take the car home? It depends on the customer and they trusted me.

(Updated to correct how my better half's used car was purchased.)
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by runner9 »

Someone already linked to my thread about car buying. Probably only effects a few: my wife's old car was titled in her maiden name and she changed her middle name when we got married. Wasn't asked or noticed when we bought the new car; some phone calls later and the old title arrived in the mail today, have to go to the DMV tomorrow and transfer the plates which have already been on the new car.

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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by bru »

JeremyM wrote:Someone already linked to my thread about car buying. Probably only effects a few: my wife's old car was titled in her maiden name and she changed her middle name when we got married. Wasn't asked or noticed when we bought the new car; some phone calls later and the old title arrived in the mail today, have to go to the DMV tomorrow and transfer the plates which have already been on the new car.

Jeremy
Similar situation. Plates were in my wife's maiden name AND her father's name. We wanted to transfer the plates. Besides saving a few bucks it is a personalized plate that my wife wanted to keep. Salesperson said no. I said what? I was literally going to walk out on the deal because I knew this was easily done. Manager got involved and said sure, just need to fill out a special form and (the hard part) had to get my father-in-law to sign and bring a copy of his license.

But nothing is really ever easy. Coincidentally the renewal for the plate was due at the time we were transferring. I sent the check for the renewal and the sticker came but the registration still had the old vehicle information. Called the Secretary of State and they said transfers take longer (on line information at this point had the new vehicle info tied to the plate). Two months and still nothing so I call again and they said the new registration was sent. Never got it (I honestly don't think they ever sent it). Asked for it to be resent, after first being told no, they sent the new registration card.

Sorry for the long story but it was the hardest part of the whole new car purchase. I did all my negotiating via email.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by bru »

ClevrChico wrote:Long story short, I offered a regional volume dealer the Edmund's TMV price, and they accepted it. It was a cash purchase, very simple. You can compare Edmund's price to truecar.com's to verify accuracy against what other's are paying.
I've mentioned this on every car buying thread. I'd be very careful about taking Emdunds, TrueCar and even KBB figures for gospel. All said the "fair" price for my vehicle was about $600 more than I actually paid. I even saved the Edmunds and KBB figures so I can verify it three months later.

Why I got a better deal is beyond me. Essentially that's what the dealer offered. Maybe they should read those sites :wink: .
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by cacophony »

bru wrote:
ClevrChico wrote:Long story short, I offered a regional volume dealer the Edmund's TMV price, and they accepted it. It was a cash purchase, very simple. You can compare Edmund's price to truecar.com's to verify accuracy against what other's are paying.
I've mentioned this on every car buying thread. I'd be very careful about taking Emdunds, TrueCar and even KBB figures for gospel. All said the "fair" price for my vehicle was about $600 more than I actually paid. I even saved the Edmunds and KBB figures so I can verify it three months later.

Why I got a better deal is beyond me. Essentially that's what the dealer offered. Maybe they should read those sites :wink: .
For my last purchase Truecar claimed $18.8k was a "great price", and that the "dealer cost" was $18.5k

I paid $17.2k cash.

As far as I'm concerned pricing sites on the internet are purely in the dealer's interest.
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Re: buying a car- tell me your story

Post by larrydmsn »

cacophony wrote:
bru wrote:
ClevrChico wrote:Long story short, I offered a regional volume dealer the Edmund's TMV price, and they accepted it. It was a cash purchase, very simple. You can compare Edmund's price to truecar.com's to verify accuracy against what other's are paying.
I've mentioned this on every car buying thread. I'd be very careful about taking Emdunds, TrueCar and even KBB figures for gospel. All said the "fair" price for my vehicle was about $600 more than I actually paid. I even saved the Edmunds and KBB figures so I can verify it three months later.

Why I got a better deal is beyond me. Essentially that's what the dealer offered. Maybe they should read those sites :wink: .
For my last purchase Truecar claimed $18.8k was a "great price", and that the "dealer cost" was $18.5k

I paid $17.2k cash.

As far as I'm concerned pricing sites on the internet are purely in the dealer's interest.
Exactly what I want to say. As seen in my post above, I paid $1200 less than the average market price published on truecar.com. truecar.com has the graph showing dealer cost and distribution of reported purchase prices. Use that info to bargain for a good deal. Also reading the price forum on edmunds.com may give you some idea of what a great deal is.
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