Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
- Allocationist
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:32 pm
Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.
Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.
Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.
Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Don't waste the money on AWD. It will be of no benefit to your situation.
(full disclosure: I own an AWD car)
(full disclosure: I own an AWD car)
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Get a car with electronic stability control (many have it as a standard feature now).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic ... ty_control
This will help maintain control during braking (such as in the rain).
You'll have to decide whether you want the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder engine, or the improved acceleration of a V6/6-cylinder engine. You might be able to tell by reading car reviews or internet forums with posts from the car's owner --- or do a test drive.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic ... ty_control
This will help maintain control during braking (such as in the rain).
You'll have to decide whether you want the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder engine, or the improved acceleration of a V6/6-cylinder engine. You might be able to tell by reading car reviews or internet forums with posts from the car's owner --- or do a test drive.
Last edited by stan1 on Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
-
- Posts: 11647
- Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 am
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
I don't think matters for your needs. I have noticed that all wheel drive cars tend to consume a little more gas than their 2WD versions. For example, according to yahoo autos, Ford Explorer Base FWD is 18/25 MPG and Base 4WD is 17/23MPG. I see similar differences in MPG for Toyota 4 Runner, Lexus IS (21/30 RWD vs 20/27 AWD).
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Where do you live? Do you need to get to work when it snows?
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Spend as much as possible on stuff ya don't need; that's the American way....
-
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:40 pm
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
For a daily driver AWD hands down. The car just goes. Rain, snow, zombies, offroad, carjackers, etc. Just punch the gas and you can get out of trouble. Yes, if you want to save a few dollars upfront and on gas, rwd is better, until you need AWD. You have to decide if the extra security (if any) in your situation warrants it.
80% Total Stock Market US VTI |
15% Intermediate Treasury VGIT |
5% Gold GLDM/AAAU
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.
I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.
Good luck!
I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.
Good luck!
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Curious, what type of car are you looking at? Most(many) RWD cars available now are luxury cars so I doublt 2k would make much of a difference.Allocationist wrote:I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.
Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.
Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
I dont think I would buy a rear wheel drive car if an AWD version was available. I live near the snow belt of Ohio, so AWD would be hands down better than RWD. If I lived in AZ, that might change.
- Allocationist
- Posts: 97
- Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2007 9:32 pm
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
A 2012/2013 Lexus GS350
http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013
I cannot foresee a situation when the car would be driven on snow or ice.
Thank you for the input.
http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013
I cannot foresee a situation when the car would be driven on snow or ice.
Thank you for the input.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Firstly, that is a gorgeous looking vehicle !! If you're not driving in inclement weather then it doesn't sound like you'll benefit from AWD on a routine basis but if you're paying that much for the car it doesn't seem like the extra $2K should be that much of an issue. I was rear ended at speed in an AWD vehicle a few years back and believe it helped significantly from a safety aspect. If I were in your shoes I would get the AWD.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
What's the data that shows AWD is linked to safety?BogleBrit wrote:Firstly, that is a gorgeous looking vehicle !! If you're not driving in inclement weather then it doesn't sound like you'll benefit from AWD on a routine basis but if you're paying that much for the car it doesn't seem like the extra $2K should be that much of an issue. I was rear ended at speed in an AWD vehicle a few years back and believe it helped significantly from a safety aspect. If I were in your shoes I would get the AWD.
I see nothing when I search the matter. The NHTSA and IIHS seem to have nothing on such a link.
I second the idea of getting a vehicle with ESC. ALL vehicles <10,000 pounds for the 2012 model year and beyond have it. If shopping for an older used car:
http://epicurusgarden.blogspot.com/2011 ... h-esc.html
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
I have 185K miles on a 1998 Lexus GS400 (RWD). I live in Chicago. Get the RWD Lexus. There is no reason for the AWD unless you are in snow and even then, as another poster noted, snow tires make a much bigger difference than RWD or AWD. I put snow tires on in he winter myself. The AWD will hurt your gas mileage and add a bit of un-needed complexity on top of the initial cost. The extra weight will take away from the driving dynamics as well.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
One can always get a front-wheel drive Lexus.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
A FWD Lexus is really just a gussied up Toyota!One can always get a front-wheel drive Lexus.
A man is rich in proportion to the number of things he can afford to let alone.
- FrugalInvestor
- Posts: 6213
- Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:20 pm
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Based upon your driving patterns and conditions there is absolutely no reason for you to buy a AWD vehicle. Not only will the cost of the vehicle be greater but your fuel mileage will be less and your choice of vehicle will be more limited. Just buy the car you like and like to drive the most and enjoy!
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a plan, stay the course and simplify. Then ignore the noise!
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Very true. AWD & snow tires > FWD & snow tires > AWD & regular tires > FWD & regular tires. FWD > RWD unless the weight is in the rear.JasonF wrote:The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.
I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.
Good luck!
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
The AWD adds a lot of parts and complexity to the car which will result in lower reliably and higher repair costs. This is inherent in the design.
All cars have "all wheel brakes" to help you stop when you need to. The all-wheel drive will only help when you do not have your foot on the break and have it on the gas pedal. I would be skeptical that there is a large safety difference. If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble.
I would call your insurance agent and check on the insurance cost of the car with and without the AWD to get a feel about how much difference in safety it really makes.
All cars have "all wheel brakes" to help you stop when you need to. The all-wheel drive will only help when you do not have your foot on the break and have it on the gas pedal. I would be skeptical that there is a large safety difference. If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble.
I would call your insurance agent and check on the insurance cost of the car with and without the AWD to get a feel about how much difference in safety it really makes.
-
- Posts: 2217
- Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:34 am
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
The OP stated that snow and ice were not a reality for him, although the "grading" described above makes sense in terms of improved traction in ice and snow.
Some AWD are higher maintenance (BMW) and all carry extra weight. If the OP was considering FWD vs AWD there might be a case for the AWD, I hate the axle hop and torque steer that you get with FWD when starting from a stop or slow speed, especially as you are cranking the wheel one way or another.
The Lexus with RWD would be my choice, given the requirements of the OP.
Some AWD are higher maintenance (BMW) and all carry extra weight. If the OP was considering FWD vs AWD there might be a case for the AWD, I hate the axle hop and torque steer that you get with FWD when starting from a stop or slow speed, especially as you are cranking the wheel one way or another.
The Lexus with RWD would be my choice, given the requirements of the OP.
"Every time I see an adult on a bicycle, I no longer despair for the future of the human race." H.G. Wells
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
It seems that discussions on this topic nearly always end up being a pro AWD "I believe it is safer" position vs a "show me some data" anti AWD position. I've never seen a situation where one side of the argument persuaded the other to change their mind.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
I have an AWD Subaru and a FWD Corolla. The only time I can tell a difference is on snow/ice. If you are not driving on snow/ice don't waste your money.
-
- Posts: 208
- Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 9:40 pm
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
AWD does have a some advantages, IMHO.
1) In the rain, if you need to clear an intersection or pull out into traffic, the car will launch harder.
2) If you start to hydroplane and the car starts to rotate, a squeeze of power may help get the wheels back to road speed and straighten the vehicle out so you can then slowly lift off and slow down.
3) Evasive manuvers or off road avoidance. (Zombies, Terrorists, Carjackers, etc. Bogleheads call these black swan events)
4) Higher resale
Disadvantages:
Extra vehicle weight reducing fuel economy and handling performance
Driveline resistance reducing fuel economy
Cost
Extra Maintenance? I don't believe this, since there is really nothing to maintain on modern awd vehicles compared to their 2wd counterparts. Transfer cases are all sealed. There are no belts, adjustments, or fluids to change.
Difficult to find a 'study' that will show that awd is superior. Until the black swan event occurs
[quote="Watty"] If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble. quote]
Watty said it better than I could. When ABS first arrived, the accident rate didn't decrease as expected. Drivers compensated for their cars newfound braking prowness by driving faster and braking later.
1) In the rain, if you need to clear an intersection or pull out into traffic, the car will launch harder.
2) If you start to hydroplane and the car starts to rotate, a squeeze of power may help get the wheels back to road speed and straighten the vehicle out so you can then slowly lift off and slow down.
3) Evasive manuvers or off road avoidance. (Zombies, Terrorists, Carjackers, etc. Bogleheads call these black swan events)
4) Higher resale
Disadvantages:
Extra vehicle weight reducing fuel economy and handling performance
Driveline resistance reducing fuel economy
Cost
Extra Maintenance? I don't believe this, since there is really nothing to maintain on modern awd vehicles compared to their 2wd counterparts. Transfer cases are all sealed. There are no belts, adjustments, or fluids to change.
Difficult to find a 'study' that will show that awd is superior. Until the black swan event occurs
[quote="Watty"] If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble. quote]
Watty said it better than I could. When ABS first arrived, the accident rate didn't decrease as expected. Drivers compensated for their cars newfound braking prowness by driving faster and braking later.
80% Total Stock Market US VTI |
15% Intermediate Treasury VGIT |
5% Gold GLDM/AAAU
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
You need chains!
- jeffyscott
- Posts: 13438
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:12 am
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Okay, but...you were rear-ended and somehow believe AWD "helped significantly from a safety aspect" in that situation .BogleBrit wrote:It seems that discussions on this topic nearly always end up being a pro AWD "I believe it is safer" position vs a "show me some data" anti AWD position. I've never seen a situation where one side of the argument persuaded the other to change their mind.
Mostly what I see is that AWD convinces people that they can drive like idiots in snow, just like they do in other weather.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Yes, this happens a lot, mostly with SUV drivers in my experience. Having driven AWD (24 years) and FWD cars, I can confidently state that AWD is worth every extra cent if you live in a snowy climate. Just be sure to install snow tires.jeffyscott wrote:BogleBrit wrote: Mostly what I see is that AWD convinces people that they can drive like idiots in snow, just like they do in other weather.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
OP, based on the information you provided, I don't see the point in going with an AWD vehicle, unless the particular car you want (for other reasons) only comes with it. If you're not dealing with snow/ice or off-roading, it's probably not of much use.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Based on a lifetime of living in snow and ice country I can say the problem on icy roads is stopping, not accelerating. If you are on an icy road, studded snow tires will do far more for you than AWD or 4WD. Save 4WD for driving through a foot of snow or mud. I can't think of why you'd waste gas on money on AWD if rain is the worst you have to deal with. Again, the problem is stopping, not starting.
rg
rg
Stay thrifty my friends.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
I got my wife a Subaru Impreza and she said she will never go back 2WD. She said the feel, control, stability is so much better. Here in So California, when it rains, the roads get very slippery and it has helped in that aspect. With that said, mileage has suffered significantly. The listed mpg for 2WD vs AWD is simply understated. The mileage suffers greatly with AWD. You get what you pay for.
This is not legal or certified financial advice but you know that already.
- jasonlitka
- Posts: 270
- Joined: Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:30 am
- Contact:
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
The new GS looks great. They have me second-guessing my quest for an Audi... The only thing I'm not convinced on with the Lexus is the engine. I would have rather seen a small V8 or a force-fed V6.Allocationist wrote:A 2012/2013 Lexus GS350
http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013
I cannot foresee a situation when the car would be driven on snow or ice.
Thank you for the input.
Anyway, to your question, unless you drive in the snow, get the RWD. If it rains frequently then stick to all-season tires, rather than summer rubber.
Jason Litka
-
- Posts: 212
- Joined: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:34 pm
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
My last car had AWD.
My current car does not. AWD was not worth the extra $1,000+ upfront and 1mpg gas penalty in my opinion. AWD was an option on my current car but I intentionally did not get it with that feature.
I live in Atlanta. If I lived up north my opinion would be different.
My current car does not. AWD was not worth the extra $1,000+ upfront and 1mpg gas penalty in my opinion. AWD was an option on my current car but I intentionally did not get it with that feature.
I live in Atlanta. If I lived up north my opinion would be different.
- jeffyscott
- Posts: 13438
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:12 am
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Unless nothing changed except 2WD to AWD, you may be leaping to a hasty conclusion by ascribing all of the improvement to the number of driven wheels. Obviously the model of vehicle changed, the tires are likely different, perhaps the new car has ESC and the old one did not, etc.harrychan wrote:I got my wife a Subaru Impreza and she said she will never go back 2WD. She said the feel, control, stability is so much better.
The control, stability, etc. of my vehicle that I purchased new in 2007 was a also great improvement over the vehicle it replaced, both were 2WD. Then it was further improved by a recent change to the tires.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
JasonF I have a question for you: I also looked at the DWS tires but wondered how fast the "W" layer burns off and what happens after that?JasonF wrote:The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.
I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.
Good luck!
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Exactly. I'm in Pittsburgh and the arrival of AWD trucks and later cars has made winter here a completely "less bad" experience. Even good snow tires won't climb the hill on a snow/ice combination. AWD will. The only caveat is that the vehicles don't STOP any better and some people, when they first get an AWD vehicle, feel very empowered. But they learn quickly that the empowerment is only valid when trying to go, not when trying to stop.JimHalpert wrote:My last car had AWD.
My current car does not. AWD was not worth the extra $1,000+ upfront and 1mpg gas penalty in my opinion. AWD was an option on my current car but I intentionally did not get it with that feature.
I live in Atlanta. If I lived up north my opinion would be different.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Absolutely horrible in snow and/or ice. I've had three. My 2009 AWD LS460, however, is FABULOUS. In the winter 2009-10 terrible snows here, the car was a champ. Last winter was mild.stuartf wrote:The Lexus with RWD would be my choice, given the requirements of the OP.
- jeffyscott
- Posts: 13438
- Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:12 am
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
From what I have read with any all-season tire they should have 6 mm tread left for use in snow, so I assume the W goes away when there is less than this. Similarly for wet there should be 4 mm.Leesbro63 wrote:JasonF I have a question for you: I also looked at the DWS tires but wondered how fast the "W" layer burns off and what happens after that?
Continental says:
DWS indicates tire is tuned for optimum performance (D for Dry, W for Wet, S for Snow).
When indicators disappear, tire is no longer tuned for optimum performance in that particular road condition.
I just plan on having suboptimal performance after they have worn down, just like any other tire. I'll probably replace them when they get to about 3 mm and will do it in the fall, just like I did this year, to maximize the winter performance.
The thing I don't like about snow tires is, since our streets are plowed and salted, 90-95% of the winter I am not driving on snow/ice. So using winter tires means poorer performance more than 90-95% of the time in exchange for good performance on the rare occasion that I am actually driving in snow. I think these DWS tires will represent a much better trade-off.
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Allocationist -- I've had the pleasure of owning a 2005 Corvette for the past 6 years, and I understand the type of driving you might wish to do with the Lexus. The Corvette is RWD. I usually drive it on dry days, but it has seen some rain. It has not been driven in ice or snow. I've owned maybe 20 cars over the past 40 years, and the Corvette is nothing short of amazing. It drives and handles far better than any car I've ever had. I believe your Lexus will be designed as a "drivers car." Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.Allocationist wrote:I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.
Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.
Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
Regards, Jim
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Absolutely false in winter weather.lj3jim wrote: Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.
Regards, Jim
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Exactly. And the snow tires burn out very quickly on the 90%-of-the-time dry road.jeffyscott wrote:The thing I don't like about snow tires is, since our streets are plowed and salted, 90-95% of the winter I am not driving on snow/ice. So using winter tires means poorer performance more than 90-95% of the time in exchange for good performance on the rare occasion that I am actually driving in snow. I think these DWS tires will represent a much better trade-off.
-
- Posts: 13356
- Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 1:45 pm
- Location: Reading, MA
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
OP has said more than once that winter weather is NOT an issue for him...Leesbro63 wrote: Absolutely false in winter weather.
Attempted new signature...
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Perhaps your rwd Corvette hugs the road as well as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4 (which I am sure you have seen)
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Thanks for the link! I hadn't seen that one. In my defense, the Vette on the left is a 6th generation Corvette (like mine). The car on the right (the one that caused the crash) is a 5th generation. Obviously the C6 is better than the C5!livesoft wrote:Perhaps your rwd Corvette hugs the road as well as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4 (which I am sure you have seen)
FYI, I've owned at least one performance car since 1987. I have never road-raced anyone. The video link provided by livesoft is a great example of why I don't.
Regards, Jim
Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?
Absolutely true, but the OP isn't concerned about winter weather. If the OP wants to have some fun on 2-lane roads in dry conditions, RWD is the right tool for the job.Leesbro63 wrote:Absolutely false in winter weather.lj3jim wrote: Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.
Regards, Jim
That said, I would never take my Vette out in the winter even though the traction control system is designed to handle it. I have a 4WD pickup for winter.
Regards, Jim