Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

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Allocationist
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Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Allocationist »

I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.

Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.

Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
strafe
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by strafe »

Don't waste the money on AWD. It will be of no benefit to your situation.

(full disclosure: I own an AWD car)
stan1
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by stan1 »

Get a car with electronic stability control (many have it as a standard feature now).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic ... ty_control

This will help maintain control during braking (such as in the rain).

You'll have to decide whether you want the fuel economy of a 4 cylinder engine, or the improved acceleration of a V6/6-cylinder engine. You might be able to tell by reading car reviews or internet forums with posts from the car's owner --- or do a test drive.
Last edited by stan1 on Sat Dec 24, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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DSInvestor
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by DSInvestor »

I don't think matters for your needs. I have noticed that all wheel drive cars tend to consume a little more gas than their 2WD versions. For example, according to yahoo autos, Ford Explorer Base FWD is 18/25 MPG and Base 4WD is 17/23MPG. I see similar differences in MPG for Toyota 4 Runner, Lexus IS (21/30 RWD vs 20/27 AWD).
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snyder66
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by snyder66 »

Where do you live? Do you need to get to work when it snows?
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Buster »

Spend as much as possible on stuff ya don't need; that's the American way....
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by rallycobra »

For a daily driver AWD hands down. The car just goes. Rain, snow, zombies, offroad, carjackers, etc. Just punch the gas and you can get out of trouble. Yes, if you want to save a few dollars upfront and on gas, rwd is better, until you need AWD. You have to decide if the extra security (if any) in your situation warrants it.
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JasonF
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by JasonF »

The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.

I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.

Good luck!
ohiost90
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by ohiost90 »

Allocationist wrote:I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.

Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.

Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
Curious, what type of car are you looking at? Most(many) RWD cars available now are luxury cars so I doublt 2k would make much of a difference.

I dont think I would buy a rear wheel drive car if an AWD version was available. I live near the snow belt of Ohio, so AWD would be hands down better than RWD. If I lived in AZ, that might change.
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Allocationist
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Allocationist »

A 2012/2013 Lexus GS350

http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013

I cannot foresee a situation when the car would be driven on snow or ice.

Thank you for the input.
BogleBrit
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by BogleBrit »

Firstly, that is a gorgeous looking vehicle !! If you're not driving in inclement weather then it doesn't sound like you'll benefit from AWD on a routine basis but if you're paying that much for the car it doesn't seem like the extra $2K should be that much of an issue. I was rear ended at speed in an AWD vehicle a few years back and believe it helped significantly from a safety aspect. If I were in your shoes I would get the AWD.
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tadamsmar
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by tadamsmar »

BogleBrit wrote:Firstly, that is a gorgeous looking vehicle !! If you're not driving in inclement weather then it doesn't sound like you'll benefit from AWD on a routine basis but if you're paying that much for the car it doesn't seem like the extra $2K should be that much of an issue. I was rear ended at speed in an AWD vehicle a few years back and believe it helped significantly from a safety aspect. If I were in your shoes I would get the AWD.
What's the data that shows AWD is linked to safety?

I see nothing when I search the matter. The NHTSA and IIHS seem to have nothing on such a link.

I second the idea of getting a vehicle with ESC. ALL vehicles <10,000 pounds for the 2012 model year and beyond have it. If shopping for an older used car:

http://epicurusgarden.blogspot.com/2011 ... h-esc.html
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matjen
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by matjen »

I have 185K miles on a 1998 Lexus GS400 (RWD). I live in Chicago. Get the RWD Lexus. There is no reason for the AWD unless you are in snow and even then, as another poster noted, snow tires make a much bigger difference than RWD or AWD. I put snow tires on in he winter myself. The AWD will hurt your gas mileage and add a bit of un-needed complexity on top of the initial cost. The extra weight will take away from the driving dynamics as well.
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livesoft
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by livesoft »

One can always get a front-wheel drive Lexus.
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matjen
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by matjen »

One can always get a front-wheel drive Lexus.
A FWD Lexus is really just a gussied up Toyota!
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FrugalInvestor
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by FrugalInvestor »

Based upon your driving patterns and conditions there is absolutely no reason for you to buy a AWD vehicle. Not only will the cost of the vehicle be greater but your fuel mileage will be less and your choice of vehicle will be more limited. Just buy the car you like and like to drive the most and enjoy!
Last edited by FrugalInvestor on Mon Dec 26, 2011 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by rwm »

JasonF wrote:The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.

I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.

Good luck!
Very true. AWD & snow tires > FWD & snow tires > AWD & regular tires > FWD & regular tires. FWD > RWD unless the weight is in the rear.
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Watty
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Watty »

The AWD adds a lot of parts and complexity to the car which will result in lower reliably and higher repair costs. This is inherent in the design.

All cars have "all wheel brakes" to help you stop when you need to. The all-wheel drive will only help when you do not have your foot on the break and have it on the gas pedal. I would be skeptical that there is a large safety difference. If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble.

I would call your insurance agent and check on the insurance cost of the car with and without the AWD to get a feel about how much difference in safety it really makes.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

The OP stated that snow and ice were not a reality for him, although the "grading" described above makes sense in terms of improved traction in ice and snow.

Some AWD are higher maintenance (BMW) and all carry extra weight. If the OP was considering FWD vs AWD there might be a case for the AWD, I hate the axle hop and torque steer that you get with FWD when starting from a stop or slow speed, especially as you are cranking the wheel one way or another.

The Lexus with RWD would be my choice, given the requirements of the OP.
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BogleBrit
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by BogleBrit »

It seems that discussions on this topic nearly always end up being a pro AWD "I believe it is safer" position vs a "show me some data" anti AWD position. I've never seen a situation where one side of the argument persuaded the other to change their mind.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Anon1234 »

I have an AWD Subaru and a FWD Corolla. The only time I can tell a difference is on snow/ice. If you are not driving on snow/ice don't waste your money.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by rallycobra »

AWD does have a some advantages, IMHO.
1) In the rain, if you need to clear an intersection or pull out into traffic, the car will launch harder.
2) If you start to hydroplane and the car starts to rotate, a squeeze of power may help get the wheels back to road speed and straighten the vehicle out so you can then slowly lift off and slow down.
3) Evasive manuvers or off road avoidance. (Zombies, Terrorists, Carjackers, etc. Bogleheads call these black swan events)
4) Higher resale


Disadvantages:
Extra vehicle weight reducing fuel economy and handling performance
Driveline resistance reducing fuel economy
Cost
Extra Maintenance? I don't believe this, since there is really nothing to maintain on modern awd vehicles compared to their 2wd counterparts. Transfer cases are all sealed. There are no belts, adjustments, or fluids to change.

Difficult to find a 'study' that will show that awd is superior. Until the black swan event occurs ;)

[quote="Watty"] If there is much of a safety difference then I suspect that in the real world it might be offset by drivers with AWD cars driving less cautiously and getting themselves into trouble. quote]

Watty said it better than I could. When ABS first arrived, the accident rate didn't decrease as expected. Drivers compensated for their cars newfound braking prowness by driving faster and braking later.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by TRC »

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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by jeffyscott »

BogleBrit wrote:It seems that discussions on this topic nearly always end up being a pro AWD "I believe it is safer" position vs a "show me some data" anti AWD position. I've never seen a situation where one side of the argument persuaded the other to change their mind.
Okay, but...you were rear-ended and somehow believe AWD "helped significantly from a safety aspect" in that situation :confused .

Mostly what I see is that AWD convinces people that they can drive like idiots in snow, just like they do in other weather.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by rwm »

jeffyscott wrote:
BogleBrit wrote: Mostly what I see is that AWD convinces people that they can drive like idiots in snow, just like they do in other weather.
Yes, this happens a lot, mostly with SUV drivers in my experience. Having driven AWD (24 years) and FWD cars, I can confidently state that AWD is worth every extra cent if you live in a snowy climate. Just be sure to install snow tires.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by tim1999 »

OP, based on the information you provided, I don't see the point in going with an AWD vehicle, unless the particular car you want (for other reasons) only comes with it. If you're not dealing with snow/ice or off-roading, it's probably not of much use.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by RobG »

Based on a lifetime of living in snow and ice country I can say the problem on icy roads is stopping, not accelerating. If you are on an icy road, studded snow tires will do far more for you than AWD or 4WD. Save 4WD for driving through a foot of snow or mud. I can't think of why you'd waste gas on money on AWD if rain is the worst you have to deal with. Again, the problem is stopping, not starting.

rg
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by harrychan »

I got my wife a Subaru Impreza and she said she will never go back 2WD. She said the feel, control, stability is so much better. Here in So California, when it rains, the roads get very slippery and it has helped in that aspect. With that said, mileage has suffered significantly. The listed mpg for 2WD vs AWD is simply understated. The mileage suffers greatly with AWD. You get what you pay for.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by jasonlitka »

Allocationist wrote:A 2012/2013 Lexus GS350

http://www.lexus.com/GS-2013

I cannot foresee a situation when the car would be driven on snow or ice.

Thank you for the input.
The new GS looks great. They have me second-guessing my quest for an Audi... The only thing I'm not convinced on with the Lexus is the engine. I would have rather seen a small V8 or a force-fed V6.

Anyway, to your question, unless you drive in the snow, get the RWD. If it rains frequently then stick to all-season tires, rather than summer rubber.
Jason Litka
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by JimHalpert »

My last car had AWD.

My current car does not. AWD was not worth the extra $1,000+ upfront and 1mpg gas penalty in my opinion. AWD was an option on my current car but I intentionally did not get it with that feature.

I live in Atlanta. If I lived up north my opinion would be different.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by jeffyscott »

harrychan wrote:I got my wife a Subaru Impreza and she said she will never go back 2WD. She said the feel, control, stability is so much better.
Unless nothing changed except 2WD to AWD, you may be leaping to a hasty conclusion by ascribing all of the improvement to the number of driven wheels. Obviously the model of vehicle changed, the tires are likely different, perhaps the new car has ESC and the old one did not, etc.

The control, stability, etc. of my vehicle that I purchased new in 2007 was a also great improvement over the vehicle it replaced, both were 2WD. Then it was further improved by a recent change to the tires.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Leesbro63 »

JasonF wrote:The type of tire on your car is as (or more) important than what wheels are getting the power. I've had AWD vehicles with either worn or higher performance tires act horribly in cold, wet or snowy conditions. On the other hand, I owned a RWD wagon shod with winter tires with no antilock brakes, no traction control and no weight over the rear wheels easily passed stranded SUV's during snowstorms.

I would save the added expense of AWD and invest in a set of winter wheels from a place like tirerack.com. If you don't feel like switching wheels every winter, I have had excellent luck with Continential DWS ("dry, wet, snow") tires on a RWD car. They performed flawlessly in one of the snowiest winters I experienced last year and do great in dry conditions as well. They are not cheap, but they are very confidence inspiring and have a 50,000 mile wear guarantee.

Good luck!
JasonF I have a question for you: I also looked at the DWS tires but wondered how fast the "W" layer burns off and what happens after that?
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Leesbro63 »

JimHalpert wrote:My last car had AWD.

My current car does not. AWD was not worth the extra $1,000+ upfront and 1mpg gas penalty in my opinion. AWD was an option on my current car but I intentionally did not get it with that feature.

I live in Atlanta. If I lived up north my opinion would be different.
Exactly. I'm in Pittsburgh and the arrival of AWD trucks and later cars has made winter here a completely "less bad" experience. Even good snow tires won't climb the hill on a snow/ice combination. AWD will. The only caveat is that the vehicles don't STOP any better and some people, when they first get an AWD vehicle, feel very empowered. But they learn quickly that the empowerment is only valid when trying to go, not when trying to stop.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Leesbro63 »

stuartf wrote:The Lexus with RWD would be my choice, given the requirements of the OP.
Absolutely horrible in snow and/or ice. I've had three. My 2009 AWD LS460, however, is FABULOUS. In the winter 2009-10 terrible snows here, the car was a champ. Last winter was mild.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by jeffyscott »

Leesbro63 wrote:JasonF I have a question for you: I also looked at the DWS tires but wondered how fast the "W" layer burns off and what happens after that?
From what I have read with any all-season tire they should have 6 mm tread left for use in snow, so I assume the W goes away when there is less than this. Similarly for wet there should be 4 mm.

Continental says:
DWS indicates tire is tuned for optimum performance (D for Dry, W for Wet, S for Snow).

When indicators disappear, tire is no longer tuned for optimum performance in that particular road condition.


I just plan on having suboptimal performance after they have worn down, just like any other tire. I'll probably replace them when they get to about 3 mm and will do it in the fall, just like I did this year, to maximize the winter performance.

The thing I don't like about snow tires is, since our streets are plowed and salted, 90-95% of the winter I am not driving on snow/ice. So using winter tires means poorer performance more than 90-95% of the time in exchange for good performance on the rare occasion that I am actually driving in snow. I think these DWS tires will represent a much better trade-off.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by lj3jim »

Allocationist wrote:I am planning on buying a sedan in the near future and I would appreciate any suggestions to help me decide if I want/need all-wheel-drive or if two-wheel (rear) drive will be just fine. The AWD option costs an additional +/- $2,000.

Background: I am a conservative driver that likes to minimize fast acceleration/deceleration. I do not drive on snow/ice and only occasionally drive in the rain. Once in a while I will pass vehicles on two lane (one lane each direction) roads and like good control and acceleration during those maneuvers.

Your input would be appreciated. Thank you!
Allocationist -- I've had the pleasure of owning a 2005 Corvette for the past 6 years, and I understand the type of driving you might wish to do with the Lexus. The Corvette is RWD. I usually drive it on dry days, but it has seen some rain. It has not been driven in ice or snow. I've owned maybe 20 cars over the past 40 years, and the Corvette is nothing short of amazing. It drives and handles far better than any car I've ever had. I believe your Lexus will be designed as a "drivers car." Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.

Regards, Jim
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Leesbro63 »

lj3jim wrote: Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.

Regards, Jim
Absolutely false in winter weather.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by Leesbro63 »

jeffyscott wrote:The thing I don't like about snow tires is, since our streets are plowed and salted, 90-95% of the winter I am not driving on snow/ice. So using winter tires means poorer performance more than 90-95% of the time in exchange for good performance on the rare occasion that I am actually driving in snow. I think these DWS tires will represent a much better trade-off.
Exactly. And the snow tires burn out very quickly on the 90%-of-the-time dry road.
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by The Wizard »

Leesbro63 wrote: Absolutely false in winter weather.
OP has said more than once that winter weather is NOT an issue for him...
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by livesoft »

Perhaps your rwd Corvette hugs the road as well as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4 (which I am sure you have seen) :)
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by lj3jim »

livesoft wrote:Perhaps your rwd Corvette hugs the road as well as this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzlg3oQMze4 (which I am sure you have seen) :)
Thanks for the link! I hadn't seen that one. In my defense, the Vette on the left is a 6th generation Corvette (like mine). The car on the right (the one that caused the crash) is a 5th generation. Obviously the C6 is better than the C5! :)

FYI, I've owned at least one performance car since 1987. I have never road-raced anyone. The video link provided by livesoft is a great example of why I don't.

Regards, Jim
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Re: Seeking input: AWD or 2WD?

Post by lj3jim »

Leesbro63 wrote:
lj3jim wrote: Like my Corvette, the Lexus will do a great job for you in the RWD configuration.

Regards, Jim
Absolutely false in winter weather.
Absolutely true, but the OP isn't concerned about winter weather. If the OP wants to have some fun on 2-lane roads in dry conditions, RWD is the right tool for the job.

That said, I would never take my Vette out in the winter even though the traction control system is designed to handle it. I have a 4WD pickup for winter. :)

Regards, Jim
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