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bagelhead
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Post by bagelhead »

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snyder66
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by snyder66 »

it should be the Parents choice. I can't believe a school district would get involved in this. Let me first say that if my children were close, we would wait a year rather than push them into kindergarten. I'm sure the Parents who think their child is "gifted" would push for early entry, but seriously!
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dm200
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by dm200 »

bagelhead wrote:Hi all,

What are your thoughts on "redshirting" a school age child? Is there any mechanism that allows the school district to prevent this?

For those who don't know, redshirting is when the cut off birth date for entering kindergarden is, for example, September 1 and the child in question was born just prior to that date, say August 1. The pro to holding the child back one year is that he is more mature than his peers. The con is that he is delayed one year from finishing schooling.

There are, of course, con's towards the other classmates. Some parents may want to do this to give their kid a leg up; other parents may not want this, as it is unfair to the children who "plays by the rules" and are younger.

Thanks.
Back many years ago, when our son was entering school, the aspect of this parental choice centered around whether (and when) the child was most ready to begin school. The focus of the discussion/debate was primarily on "readiness" for school and not on getting a leg up on classmates. While there may have been some parents who looked at the "redshirting" aspect (as you are concerned about), I do not recall that issue being brought up or discussed at the time.
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greg24
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by greg24 »

One mechanism is the age limit for high schoolers. Make sure your kid won't be too old for his senior year.
Last edited by greg24 on Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
livesoft
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by livesoft »

I don't see any cons for delaying a child one year from finishing school. If you do, then maybe you can tell me what they are.

Anyways, I am agnostic on delaying a kid or pushing a kid. In the end, it just doesn't really matter that much. Full disclosure: My daughter missed the birthday cutoff by a few days. Did it make a difference? I don't think so.
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norookie
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by norookie »

:D I thought being the youngest, starting early, gives kids bigger obstacles (being w/older kids) preparing them for the real world even better.<shrug> JMO
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raisin mountaineer
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by raisin mountaineer »

I think it's especially helpful for boys. My son has a classmate who was "redshirted," and he is thriving as a kindergartner. He's big compared to the other kids, but not the biggest. It's going to help him in athletics, if he's inclined that way--- even a few months makes a big difference. (There was a study done in Canada, exploring why a disproportionate number of profession hockey players were born in January. Turns out, the hockey leagues are grouped strictly by year of birth, so the January kids are older than the others in their leagues-- just that little bit is enough to be significant.)

Some kids (again, it seems like boys) just aren't emotionally mature enough to handle school. Getting a re-try at kindergarten shouldn't be frowned upon in these cases (best if you can change teachers/schools so they aren't labeled by the other kids).

The major downside of holding a kid back a year before putting him/her in kindergarten is having to pay for another year of pre-school or day care if you're in that situation. This affects a lot of people, and I think some kids are put in school before they're ready for financial reasons. I'm not judging here (one of my best friends found herself in this situation)-- just pointing out it is a real difficulty and a critical financial decision for some people. I felt bad for my friend that finances had to weigh heavier than what was probably developmentally right for her kid, but I understood her decision.

If you're in a situation where you can financially make it for another year and your kid isn't eager to go off to school, I think an extra year at home can't hurt.

In our case, our kid was chomping at the bit to be a "big boy" and go to school, and he has benefitted hugely from the social skills he has gained as a kindergartner. He was ready, willing, and eager. It made the decision easy.
epilnk
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by epilnk »

bagelhead wrote:What are your thoughts on "redshirting" a school age child? Is there any mechanism that allows the school district to prevent this?

For those who don't know, redshirting is when the cut off birth date for entering kindergarden is, for example, September 1 and the child in question was born just prior to that date, say August 1. The pro to holding the child back one year is that he is more mature than his peers. The con is that he is delayed one year from finishing schooling.

There are, of course, con's towards the other classmates. Some parents may want to do this to give their kid a leg up; other parents may not want this, as it is unfair to the children who "plays by the rules" and are younger.

Thanks.
We redshirted our younger son. There were pros and cons to be weighed, but it had nothing to do with getting a "leg up" on anyone else. Four years later it is unambiguous that we made the right decision. Academically I'd prefer him in fourth grade, but he's right in the middle of the class in terms of maturity and behavior, plus he's the shortest kid in the entire third grade despite being older than most.

From the way you phrased the question (and the bold font) I assume you oppose the practice. However it is an important option to maintain because children do not develop uniformly. Most children are ready for school on the cutoff date, some are not. Many people believe that the increased academic demands at an ever earlier age are a factor in the increase in ADHD medication, especially for boys, and many parents of boys will redshirt for this reason alone if they don't think their son is ready to sit calmly. Though this was not our issue, it's the explanation I've heard most often.

There is no downside that I can see to redshirting a child who does not appear ready, though readiness is of course subjective and ambiguous. The largest downside to the practice is that it widens the age range a teacher is dealing with; rather than all the children being clustered within one year, the range in one classroom is more like 18 months and can be nearly 2 years for the outliers. However in our case one of the kindergarten teachers advised us to give our son another year. The widening of the age range is mostly a problem if parents of mature children are redshirting because they think everyone else is; since a teacher's attention is disproportionately occupied by the struggling kids, a child far above his peers is likely to get short shrift.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by relentless »

Based on having read Malcolm Gladwell's Outliers, it does seem that schools should at least be cognizant of the disadvantage that the youngest kids in a given class have relative to the oldest. It is important that these kids don't get labelled as dumb just because they are a year younger than the oldest kids in the class. The problem with "redshirting" as you put it is that you put the youngest child at even more of a disadvantage. Instead of being 11.9 months younger he is now 13 or 14 months younger. More affluent parents are more likely to be aware of this phenomenon and to game the system, which could put less privileged children born just before the cutoff at an even greater disadvantage. I think OP's concerns are justified.
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bagelhead
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Post by bagelhead »

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relentless
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by relentless »

It is a significant societal issue that seems not to be on people's radar screen. Affects sports as well with the so-called January effect. As a parent, should I steer my child born late in the year away from hockey (January cut off) and towards baseball (August cut off) and the reverse for my child who is born early in the year? I don't know. If they are as unathletic as I am, probably won't actually matter much. :) I suggest you read Gladwell's book.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by epilnk »

relentless wrote:It is a significant societal issue that seems not to be on people's radar screen. Affects sports as well with the so-called January effect. As a parent, should I steer my child born late in the year away from hockey (January cut off) and towards baseball (August cut off) and the reverse for my child who is born early in the year? I don't know. If they are as unathletic as I am, probably won't actually matter much. :) I suggest you read Gladwell's book.
The Little League cutoff is late April. You'll need to encourage those fall babies to fall in love with soccer instead (Aug cutoff I think).

I have heard stories of parents redshirting their kids to give them an advantage in high school sports. I've never known anyone to do that, though; perhaps this is more common in other parts of the country.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by funnymoney »

Bagelhead --
For many years (like 30) I was the one doing testing for children whose parents wanted them in kindergarten a year early because their birthdays were just after the cut-off date. There are MANY issues, some presented below but in no particular order.

Consider the anticipated maturation rate you can realistically expect for your child, which would be based at least in part on the parents' maturation rates. If Mom and Dad hit puberty at 15 or 16, the kiddo is likely (not POSITIVELY, just likely) to be a little late maturing and holding him/ her out a year might be a worthwhile consideration. If Dad had to start shaving in 6th grade and Mom encountered menses at 9 or 10, maybe going in early will be helpful.

The age difference is LARGEST at the YOUNGEST age. Consider that a kindergartener being a year older is a full 20% older than some classmates. That's a lot. On the other hand, by the time they're in high school, the percentage difference is much smaller.

Many activities -- scouts, sports, etc. -- are built on age. If you enter your child in school either early or late, they may find themselves in teams or clubs that do not include classmates. That can be difficult for them.

One of the dangers of entering a child earlier comes at adolesence. Consider that they will then be exposed to the "big three" -- drugs, alcohol, sex -- a full year younger and a full year less mature and perhaps a full year less able to stand up for their own principles.

There is some research that suggests that children who are OLDER than classmates in high school are less likely to actually graduate. Many of them may have been kept back a year, though. You might check on this research because I am recalling it from quite a while ago.

In my experience and in 95% of the research it is suggested that retaining a child in a grade afer entering school is a highly risky choice. A few kids manage okay, but by and large they do not respond well over the long haul. Might be okay if they have been very ill, hospitalized or experienced some massive trauma that kept them out of school (then in no way is it their fault!). But having that done TO you by parents or teachers is usually a terrible experience, often for life. In fact I worked with a school psychologist that within an hour of meeting me mentioned that he had been retained in second grade. At over 50 years of age he went and visited the teacher who held him back to ask why. How traumatic was that? An unusual response, but not unusual feelings IMHO.

Once in a blue moon a child comes along who ASKS to stay back a year. Very rare, but I have seen THAT work out pretty darned well.

The best plan (no one ever likes this!) is to be organized enough to give birth just a couple of months after the kndergarten cutoff date! Bogleheads are usually good planners after all!

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epilnk
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by epilnk »

bagelhead wrote:Thanks for the replies. Please try not to read into my question phrasing, epilink or relentless, as I purposely attempted to word my question in a neutral way (an obvious fail). I just want to better understand the thinking and hard-and-fast rules of both sides of the argument, as my (future) child(ren) may fall in either boat.
While I'm all in favor of advance planning, if the kids are not yet born I suspect this might be a touch premature. :D The decision of whether or not to redshirt depends more upon the individual child than his birthdate, which is why hard and fast rules are not a great idea. Among kids I know personally who were placed in a different grade are a prodigy who entered first grade two years early (and is functioning well socially), a child who had chemo at age 2, and a child who had lived in an orphanage.

My younger son is a quirky mix of advanced and delayed talents that made the decision difficult. Academically, he is a math superstar who does not yet read at grade level; socially he behaved in class but struggled with peer interactions, emotionally, he is a volatile pain in the butt who does not accept authority. Redshirting was the conservative choice for this challenging child. We believe that the redshirting directly affected his social adjustment, which is now very good, improved the emotional volatility by reducing social frustration, which in turn most likely made him less likely to rebel against the teacher. (He still questions her right to assign homework, however.) Academically I'm not sure there was either gain or loss except for providing additional time for reading development. At this point in mid elementary it's hard for me to attach much significance to his birthdate.
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HomerJ
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by HomerJ »

snyder66 wrote:it should be the Parents choice. I can't believe a school district would get involved in this. Let me first say that if my children were close, we would wait a year rather than push them into kindergarten. I'm sure the Parents who think their child is "gifted" would push for early entry, but seriously!
Heh, I pushed my August kid in early, because that one less year of pre-school day-care... Now you single taxpayers are paying for the school to take care of my kid all day long! Ha!

Edit: Plus, we had him pretty late... We're already going to be the gray-hairs at the high-school events, no need to make that even worse by waiting another year! And he's scoring in the 99th percentile, and he's tall, and he's doing fine academically... Reading some of the above posters, I do worry a bit about his maturity level when he hits high school... I think he'll be okay.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by rob »

Meh... Depends on the kid. Out of our three boys, 2 were on the cut off line and we decided to let them wait but the oldest went young and worked out fine. The difference was the older one spent his life at daycare anyway and was ready for school - plus his personality was wanting to learn stuff and loved interacting with other kids. Don't think it's especially good or bad.

I was very young for school and the only real thing I was miffed about was not been able to drive while in school - no learners or anything...... In hind sight that was a GOOD thing :|. I was finished my uni undergrad by my 21st, so it worked out well on the other end :-)
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555
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by 555 »

No-one mentioned homeschooling yet. There was no way we could put our son in Kindergarten classroom in August. So we're homeschooling (actually virtual school). He can go at his own pace, covering K and 1 in a year, and so he'll start 2nd grade next August, maybe higher in some subjects. I.e. he'll gain a year (or more), not lose a year. I don't know when he'll be ready for the classroom, but it doesn't matter. You certainly shouldn't hold your child back just because they're not classroom ready.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by marylandcrab »

Of the kids I know who were red-shirted, they were held back later, and done primarily for sports, to give their kids the advantage of being older and more mature. We were given the choice in middle school of having ds skip 8th and go straight to hs. We chose not to do that and keep him with his peers. He wouldn't have been ready to go off to college a year early. I can see now that he's a senior he would have been fine either way, but I don't regret the decision.

Where I start having some issues is when the boys who are 19 in hs are interested in the young 9th grade girls. It happened last year to my dd and I didn't appreciate these "men" going after my 14 yo.

A lot of parents do it for advantage. I see it in the private school world all the time. It also helps standardized test scores for schools when you have more mature kids taking these tests. I know our previous private school had kids take the previous years test the following fall.

I think a big issue is the cut off date. It either needs to be abandoned all together or set across the country. When my kids were younger it was dec 31, now it's sept 1, but around the country it's all different dates. When kids move they end up being "off" with their age/grade.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by neverknow »

rob wrote:I was very young for school and the only real thing I was miffed about was not been able to drive while in school - no learners or anything...... In hind sight that was a GOOD thing :|. I was finished my uni undergrad by my 21st, so it worked out well on the other end :-)
I was very young also, and then skipped a year of high school, and entered college at age 16. My lack of comprehension of college level English Literature - was the only place my lack of life experience showed up as an issue. I recall some teasing from college. I don't recall any issues with coping with the teasing at that age. Some of the people thinking they were older and wiser then I was -- were markedly stupid. -- It was the 60's. I don't believe any of this was the big deal back then, I see you all discussing today. And that bit I do find curious. Why is this a big deal, 50 years later? Why wasn't it a big deal 50 years ago? What has changed?
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livesoft
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by livesoft »

Why is this a big deal, 50 years later? Why wasn't it a big deal 50 years ago? What has changed?
Nothing has changed. That's the point. Some parents have always expressed anxiety over every choice they make about their children's future. Only later do they learn that most of their choices didn't really matter in the long run.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by slug »

By delaying school aren't you in a sense delaying their entry into the workforce as well which puts them a year behind in terms of career advancement and starting to save for retirement?

We considered redshirting our son only briefly. Although he is small for his age and entered Kindergarten at 5yrs 3mths, his 3 years of preschool appears to have left him well-prepared. Plus, I now have ~$1,000 of additional free cashflow each month that can help our family in innumerable ways.

I think it comes down to a parental decision on what they believe is in their child's best interests.
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jives
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by jives »

I have found that in the town we live in here in Ohio, parents tend to start their kids a year later than what I would consider the norm everywhere else. It has been true for both my kids that they have classmates who are a full year older than them. My older son had a friend who was actually a week older than my son yet he was a year behind in school (and no, he was not held back a grade; he started a year later). I don't know why that seems to be the general rule here, but it is. Most kids here are 19 when they graduate high school. It's a lot different than when I was a kid. I started kindergarten when I was 4 (October birthday) and graduated at 17.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by likegarden »

Our grandson was kept back a year because he seemed to be very immature for his age and needed to get some more maturity while in a second year in pre-school. It worked out very well. A nephew was also held back a year to enter school and is now a professor of mathematics at a major university. My son also was held back a year and is now an engineer. This seems to run in my family. Do not forget that girls are well ahead of boys in maturity to enter school, and bringing an immature boy into Kindergarten will lead to him being one of the most immature kids of his class which then will affect his learning ability. We are surprised that boys are not held back more often, also for the reason to correct mother nature which seems to favor girls at that age.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by sscritic »

If your child is a year older than everyone else, it will be easier for him to beat up the others (and vice-versa). If you redshirt your child and then die when he is eight, he will collect social security survivor benefits until he graduates from high school rather than until he is 18. Don't ignore those extra social security dollars.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by HardKnocker »

People do this all the time in my state for athletic purposes. That is the usual reason it is done.

Does it work? Sometimes but not always. It helps if the kid is already a good athlete. If the kid stinks it doesn't help. He still stinks. He's just an older stinker.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by RadAudit »

About 20 years ago when my son was about to enter grade school the concept of "Transitional First" was all the rage - an extra year between kindergarten and first grade for late birthday boys. (The cut-off was Sept 30 on the birthday. My boy was delivered on Oct. 4 due to scheduling problems.) The theory was that late birthday boys were going to be permanently behind their classmates due to their "immaturity". The "theory" had been validated, supposedly, by a study of about 40 kids from a pre-school near Yale.

Must of made somebody in the education administration a whole lot of money before it fell out of favor around here a couple of years later.

Further studies indicated that whatever development problems there were in late birthday boys disappeared by about the 3rd grade and you were left with a kid that was one year older than his classmates for the rest of his school experience. Whether that's good or bad is an interesting question. Some people feel strongly both ways. But IMHO, keeping them back a year for an advantage in sports only works out long term if they are going to the NBA, NFL or MLB.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by johnubc »

It depends on the child - not the wants of the parents. Some children should be delayed entry.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by sscritic »

Don't forget the cost of feeding the child for an extra year. Instead of having your 18 year-old off at college, he will be home eating you out of house and home. This is a financial website: let's have more discussion about the financial aspects of redshirting, not just this "good for the child" developmental psychology babble.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by cheese_breath »

When I was little we lived in a small town with a single K-12 school without a semester system. All new students entered kindergarten in September. I was born in January so my parents had the option of enrolling me at age 4 (four months before my fifth birthday) or age 5 (8 months after my fifth birthday). They chose the latter.

When I was in the second grade we moved to a big city where the schools ran on a two semester system. The children in my age group had all entered kindergarten January before me so I was one half year behind them. I obsessed over this for years until I finally enrolled in summer school during the 8th grade to catch up that half year.

I''m not saying all kids are as insecure as I was or that redshirting is a bad idea. In retrospect I now believe my parents did the right thing waiting to enroll me. But parents should be aware that redshirting may have emotional effects on some children and be prepared to help the children work through them.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Steelersfan »

As posted several times before, sports seems to be the main reason for red-shirting. Norms vary by area and even school district to school district.

In our school district it was the norm to send kids on time or even early. In an adjacent school district it was the norm to hold kids out even though they were older. Through Junior High and even into the first year or two of High School you could tell the difference. But by Junior or Senior year the differences had mostly gone away.

We sent our kids early or on time and it worked out just fine. But I see nothing wrong holding a kid back if they're immature and not ready, or if that's the norm in the school district you're in.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Leesbro63 »

My wife insisted on redshirting our son because so many other boys his age were being red shirted. I was against it, but as with all "kid issues" the wife wins. He is now 17 1/2 in 11th grade and I think wife made the right decision, if for no other reason than, well, the other boys are his age. He has definitely matured big time in the last 12 months and I am convinced his recent SAT scores are better than if he had taken them at age 16 1/2 in 11th grade. As far as "eating us out of house and home"...it depends on how you look at it. Did the extra year happen now or did it happen when he was 4? He STILL would have gone thru 4 expensive years of high school. Driving is the one area that was more expensive...he will end up driving for 3 full years of High School rather than 2 had we sent him to kindergarten at age 5.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by cheese_breath »

sscritic wrote:Don't forget the cost of feeding the child for an extra year. Instead of having your 18 year-old off at college, he will be home eating you out of house and home. This is a financial website: let's have more discussion about the financial aspects of redshirting, not just this "good for the child" developmental psychology babble.
Someone who bases his redshirting decision on what it costs to have his child home one more year probably shouldn't have children. But if you want to consider finances, consider that the extra year gives you more time to grow his college fund before you have to begin drawing from it.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by norookie »

sscritic wrote:Don't forget the cost of feeding the child for an extra year. Instead of having your 18 year-old off at college, he will be home eating you out of house and home. This is a financial website: let's have more discussion about the financial aspects of redshirting, not just this "good for the child" developmental psychology babble.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by sscritic »

cheese_breath wrote: Someone who bases his redshirting decision on what it costs to have his child home one more year probably shouldn't have children.
And someone who bases his decision to send his child to private school on what it costs probably shouldn't have children. Costs don't matter when it comes to your children. In fact, you should pay for your child to go to Harvard, even if it means you have nothing left for retirement. If you are not willing to eat dog food so your child can go to Harvard, you shouldn't have had children in the first place.

Or perhaps the monetary costs of your decisions should be considered along with all the other aspects.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by sscritic »

And isn't redshirting your child in order to improve the chances of a college scholarship (athletic or academic) using financial considerations in making the decision?
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by HomerJ »

sscritic wrote:
cheese_breath wrote: Someone who bases his redshirting decision on what it costs to have his child home one more year probably shouldn't have children.
And someone who bases his decision to send his child to private school on what it costs probably shouldn't have children. Costs don't matter when it comes to your children. In fact, you should pay for your child to go to Harvard, even if it means you have nothing left for retirement. If you are not willing to eat dog food so your child can go to Harvard, you shouldn't have had children in the first place.

Or perhaps the monetary costs of your decisions should be considered along with all the other aspects.
Good answer... I like sscritic :)
Brody
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Brody »

sscritic wrote:And isn't redshirting your child in order to improve the chances of a college scholarship (athletic or academic) using financial considerations in making the decision?
I guess that this might happen, but from my experience, and I do have a fair amount of experience with this subject, in general, the redshirting of children going into kindergarten doesn't have anything to do with future athletic or academic scholarships and is not about financial considerations.

It isn't even about academics. Children usually get redshirted when the parents and/or the school administration believe that the child can benefit from waiting another year. It mostly is about developmental issues.

If it is being done for academic and/or athletic reasons, it is done at older ages. For instance, many athletes end up playing a year at a prep school which means that they end up playing high school ball for 5 years instead of 4.
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jhh9327
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by jhh9327 »

My son was born 3 minutes before midnight on the cutoff day for our area. Another few minutes later and we wouldn't even have had a choice and ultimately we decided to look at it that way and waited the extra year. He's in kindergarten this year and so far it has absolutely been the right choice for him. He was not ready last year and there are several kids older than him in this year's class while he would have been the baby of the school if he started last year.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by cheese_breath »

sscritic wrote:
cheese_breath wrote: Someone who bases his redshirting decision on what it costs to have his child home one more year probably shouldn't have children.
And someone who bases his decision to send his child to private school on what it costs probably shouldn't have children. Costs don't matter when it comes to your children. In fact, you should pay for your child to go to Harvard, even if it means you have nothing left for retirement. If you are not willing to eat dog food so your child can go to Harvard, you shouldn't have had children in the first place.

Or perhaps the monetary costs of your decisions should be considered along with all the other aspects.
Check the context of the reply. It was in response to a comment critical of the cost of keeping a child in the house one more year. It didn’t mention private schools, Harvard or whatever else. The original comment would seem to imply that it’s OK for a child to eat you out of house and home for 18 years, but one more year is a deal breaker.
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livesoft
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by livesoft »

Leesbro63 wrote:....Driving is the one area that was more expensive...he will end up driving for 3 full years of High School rather than 2 had we sent him to kindergarten at age 5.
Hmmm, I always thought that parents had a very strong say in whether their teenagers drive or not. You can certainly change that "driving for 3 full years" to "no driving whatsoever" if you wanted to. :)

As for the "one more year" at home deal, many of you are going to be surprised that there will probably be "one more year" regardless of whether you hold your child back at kindergarten or not. :twisted:

Furthermore, there is no control experiment to know if holding a child back or not is really the best choice. One cannot go back and unhold them back. Perhaps by not holding back, the child would mature faster/better or perhaps they would become a better negotiator or perhaps instead of excelling in sports, they excel in academics, music, or drama. And it is simply amazing to me the range of ages when kids enter puberty ... it certainly spans more than 2 years ... so you have small boys next to hulks in school. Thank goodness girls generally go through puberty before boys. Imagine what society would be like if it was the other way 'round.
Last edited by livesoft on Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Leesbro63
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Leesbro63 »

livesoft wrote:Hmmm, I always thought that parents had a very strong say in whether their teenagers drive or not. You can certainly change that "driving for 3 full years" to "no driving whatsoever" if you wanted to. :)
Technically you are right. But in the real world of affluent suburbia, you let your kid have his "right or passage" when he becomes 16. And truthfully I am GLAD he is driving because we live "out" and having my son being able to transport himself is worth it to me. (I even leased him a brand spanking new 2010 Toyota Corolla for his 3 years of HS driving. Man am I going to get flamed for that BOGLEHEAD CRIME).
Leesbro63
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Leesbro63 »

cheese_breath wrote:
sscritic wrote:Don't forget the cost of feeding the child for an extra year. Instead of having your 18 year-old off at college, he will be home eating you out of house and home. This is a financial website: let's have more discussion about the financial aspects of redshirting, not just this "good for the child" developmental psychology babble.
Someone who bases his redshirting decision on what it costs to have his child home one more year probably shouldn't have children. But if you want to consider finances, consider that the extra year gives you more time to grow his college fund before you have to begin drawing from it.
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Leesbro63
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Leesbro63 »

livesoft wrote:Hmmm, I always thought that parents had a very strong say in whether their teenagers drive or not. You can certainly change that "driving for 3 full years" to "no driving whatsoever" if you wanted to. :)
Technically you are right. But in the real world of affluent suburbia, you let your kid have his "right or passage" when he becomes 16 if he's a good kid and gets good grades etc. And wants it. Some kids don't want to drive these days, really. And according to your logic, you could/should ban the kid from driving at 16 for a year or two whether he is in 10th grade or 11th grade.

Actually, in our case I am GLAD he is driving because we live "out" and having my son being able to transport himself is worth it to me. (I even leased him a brand spanking new 2010 Toyota Corolla for his 3 years of HS driving. Man am I going to get flamed for that BOGLEHEAD CRIME).
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Mon Nov 28, 2011 1:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
livesoft
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by livesoft »

Leesbro63 wrote:
livesoft wrote:Hmmm, I always thought that parents had a very strong say in whether their teenagers drive or not. You can certainly change that "driving for 3 full years" to "no driving whatsoever" if you wanted to. :)
Technically you are right. But in the real world of affluent suburbia, you let your kid have his "right or passage" when he becomes 16.
I live in the real world of affluent suburbia. All the student cars parked at the high schools are Ferraris, Bentleys, Escalades, MBs, and beater Lexuses. The teachers are driving Fords and Chevys. It is not a right of passage. It is mostly indulgent parents. The kids could ride bikes to serve their transportation needs. Nevertheless, these kids are just driving the hand-me-down cars that their parents used to drive. What's up with the new Corolla when a 3-year-old S550 will do?
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greg24
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by greg24 »

A kid in my now 8 year old's kindergarten class was redshirted. He turned 7(!) a month into school, then I heard from other parents that he was redshirted for athletic reasons. Living in a highly competitive academic community, I was a little surprised.

I found out last week that his oldest son finished 3rd in NCAA nationals last year as a college sophomore. Maybe it worked for them.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by Leesbro63 »

livesoft wrote:
Leesbro63 wrote:
livesoft wrote:Hmmm, I always thought that parents had a very strong say in whether their teenagers drive or not. You can certainly change that "driving for 3 full years" to "no driving whatsoever" if you wanted to. :)
Technically you are right. But in the real world of affluent suburbia, you let your kid have his "right or passage" when he becomes 16.
I live in the real world of affluent suburbia. All the student cars parked at the high schools are Ferraris, Bentleys, Escalades, MBs, and beater Lexuses. The teachers are driving Fords and Chevys. It is not a right of passage. It is mostly indulgent parents. The kids could ride bikes to serve their transportation needs. Nevertheless, these kids are just driving the hand-me-down cars that their parents used to drive. What's up with the new Corolla when a 3-year-old S550 will do?
Actually, in our school district there ARE indeed occasional "dad's old car" BMWs and Lexi. But where you are wrong is with the teacher cars. Our teachers are paid VERY well (property taxes reflect that) and many drive VERY NICE, NEW-EVERY-THREE cars. To be fair, my older kid got into a "name" college and my son is headed there too. Much of that is due to the superior teachers hired by our district.

I can sense your repulsion, Valuethinker, at my description of our reality here. What can I say? Again, both of my kids have done well so I'm fine to go along with the indulgence program. Daughter will graduate college soon and has a good job lined up and will be off the payroll. Some of her incentive to bust her chops was to maintain the lifestyle she had growing up. As was my case a generation ago. I did indulge her somewhat but she fulfilled her end of the bargain. My son is on the same track.

By the way, the stereotype of the spoiled little rich kid is often times a misnomer. I know MANY kids of business & professionals who were endulged with the bargain being they have to become successful too. There is an understanding passed from generation to generation that excelling at study and school is their "job" and that the goal is to be able to pass the same lifestyle onto their own kids. It works in many many cases, but is often pooh-poohed. In fact, I would argue that this is more common than discussed openly and is a very common "alternative financial lifestyle".
sscritic
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by sscritic »

More long term thinking from the devil's advocate:

If you redshirt your child, he will enter the workforce one year later. When he contemplates early retirement at 58, say, he will have one less year of retirement savings and one less year of covered social security earnings. If he loses his job at 58, he won't be able to get a job in a market that discriminates against older workers by claiming "but my parent's redshirted me when I was 5, so I am really equivalent to a 57 year old worker. I need an extra year for my retirement."

On the other hand, you have to balance this off against the argument that by redshirting your child he will do better in high school, get into a better college, get a better job, and make more money and have more for retirement in 35 of working than if he had started a year earlier and had 36 years of working. What does your spreadsheet say?

P.S. Don't forget that redshirting will also lead to a better spouse for your child (attracted by those better earnings) and better children - your grandchildren (supported by those better earnings) which in turn will lead to better spouses for your grandchildren and so on through the generations. Wow! Maybe you should redshirt your child for three or four years! Think of your legacy.
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by fredflinstone »

greg24 wrote: I found out last week that his oldest son finished 3rd in NCAA nationals last year as a college sophomore. Maybe it worked for them.
what sport? Just curious.

Wouldn't a college coach take into account the kid's age when deciding whether to recruit him?

I'd rather recruit a 17-year old who runs a 4:20 mile than a 19-year old who runs a 4:10 mile, all other things equal.
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livesoft
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by livesoft »

^ This anecdote doesn't really tell us anything. The young man could've finished well at the NCAA Nationals regardless of whether they were red-shirted or not. Their talent would've been discovered regardless.

However, I will grant you that it sometimes depends on your competition. For example, there are many good cyclists, but they had to race against Lance Armstrong and his team, so they became also-rans.
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epilnk
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Re: Redshirting school age children

Post by epilnk »

jenny345 wrote:A year makes a big difference in sports at younger ages. For a shy kid being the star player simply due to the size differential on a competitive sports team can be a big confidence builder. Also for shy or immature kids an extra year of preschool or a prekindergarten class can help develop socialization skills for an extra year.
At the younger ages the qualification for sports teams is based on birthdate, not grade. At least that has been the case for every team my 10 year old jock has ever played on. And kids who are disproportionately talented usually "play up" a league. One might argue that it is the kid who is not redshirted who holds the advantage, since he will have had the advantage of practicing with kids a year older on the playground. At least until he starts playing on school teams.
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