New Tires. Rotation query.
New Tires. Rotation query.
Just put new new set of Michelin Primacy MXV4's on the 2006 Camry LE yesterday. Wow! What a difference from my four year old OEM Continental Contacts. Much quieter and the ride is smoother. Which got me thinking. In 7,500 miles I'll do my first rotation. I use the modified X rotation scheme, i.e., move the front tires straight to the back and the backs ones to the opposite side on the front.
I'm curious. What rotation pattern and mileage do my fellow BH's follow?
Thanks,
WD
I'm curious. What rotation pattern and mileage do my fellow BH's follow?
Thanks,
WD
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Here is what I found in your Michelin Tire Warranty:
I do front to back - same side - and keep the spare brand new.
Moving tires from right to left will make the tire roll the opposite direction.When rotating tires with a directional tread pattern, observe the arrows molded on the sidewall which show the direction the tire should turn. Care must be taken to maintain the proper turning direction.
I do front to back - same side - and keep the spare brand new.
The recommendations differ depending on whether your car is front, rear, or all wheel drive. I don't know that one particular pattern is superior to any other, so long as you are consistent. It's like rebalancing your portfolio.
Note that some manufacturers (e.g. BMW) recommend AGAINST rotating.
Of course tire rotation is only feasible if your tires are non-directional and your rear wheels aren't staggered.
Note that some manufacturers (e.g. BMW) recommend AGAINST rotating.
Of course tire rotation is only feasible if your tires are non-directional and your rear wheels aren't staggered.
That only applies to directional tires. The Michelin Primacy MXV4s are not directional.sscritic wrote:Here is what I found in your Michelin Tire Warranty:Moving tires from right to left will make the tire roll the opposite direction.When rotating tires with a directional tread pattern, observe the arrows molded on the sidewall which show the direction the tire should turn. Care must be taken to maintain the proper turning direction.
I do front to back - same side - and keep the spare brand new.
Well, the recommendation applies to directional tires. I didn't find a statement that said going front to back was bad for non-directional tires. And the statement about changing sides changing the direction of rotation is true for all tires, unless you want to remount them and put the white side-walls on the inside.strafe wrote:That only applies to directional tires. The Michelin Primacy MXV4s are not directional.sscritic wrote:Here is what I found in your Michelin Tire Warranty:Moving tires from right to left will make the tire roll the opposite direction.When rotating tires with a directional tread pattern, observe the arrows molded on the sidewall which show the direction the tire should turn. Care must be taken to maintain the proper turning direction.
I do front to back - same side - and keep the spare brand new.
Putting tires on backwards can cause them to unravel under stress, so it's not a very intelligent thing to do. If the car is in alignment, and your not racing in circles, front to back is all that would ever be needed anyway. -- Tetsscritic wrote:And the statement about changing sides changing the direction of rotation is true for all tires, unless you want to remount them and put the white side-walls on the inside.
I generally buy fairly inexpensive tires, but I have repeatedly had problems with multiple brands on multiple vehicles when I have switched sides. What happens is a tendency after rotation to pull to the right or left.
I have concluded that front-to-back rotation, on the same side, is the safest thing to do. I have never experienced wear issues in doing this. I have also found that rotating more often than 10,000 miles is a waste of time.
There is a school of thought that says rotation is pointless and to just replace the worn-out pair of tires. In the case of front-wheel drive vehicles, the rear tires would outlive three or more pairs of front tires. I haven't quite bought into this theory. For one thing, I don't like having the more-worn tires on the front when braking in low-traction conditions.
I have concluded that front-to-back rotation, on the same side, is the safest thing to do. I have never experienced wear issues in doing this. I have also found that rotating more often than 10,000 miles is a waste of time.
There is a school of thought that says rotation is pointless and to just replace the worn-out pair of tires. In the case of front-wheel drive vehicles, the rear tires would outlive three or more pairs of front tires. I haven't quite bought into this theory. For one thing, I don't like having the more-worn tires on the front when braking in low-traction conditions.
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Don't have to/can't.
My primary car has different size tires/wheels between the front back (Cadillac SRX) ...
My Mustang GT has directional tires so they go front/back - same size, every few years (the car's 8 years old with 18k). Since they are "soft", I doubt if I'll get much over 20k on them, even though I drive the car quite conservatively.
- Ron
My primary car has different size tires/wheels between the front back (Cadillac SRX) ...
My Mustang GT has directional tires so they go front/back - same size, every few years (the car's 8 years old with 18k). Since they are "soft", I doubt if I'll get much over 20k on them, even though I drive the car quite conservatively.
- Ron
IF tires are SAME size AND are NOT directional (will be marked as such on sidewall) AND there is a full sized spare, I rotate them using all 5. Spare to front right, front right to right rear, right rear to front left, front left to rear left and rear left to spare. This way you will get 20% more mileage out of the tires. Rotation rate I use is every 5K miles.
If they are different sized and directional you should not rotate them. If they are different sizes but not directional you can rotate them side to side. In these cases you probably will not have a full sized spare so that does not enter into the process.
Some cars do not now come with any type of spare and use run flats on all four wheels. Personally, I am not sure what is recommended regarding these as I have never had a vehicle equipped with them.
If they are different sized and directional you should not rotate them. If they are different sizes but not directional you can rotate them side to side. In these cases you probably will not have a full sized spare so that does not enter into the process.
Some cars do not now come with any type of spare and use run flats on all four wheels. Personally, I am not sure what is recommended regarding these as I have never had a vehicle equipped with them.
OAG=Old Army Guy. Retired CW4 USA (US Army) in 1979 21 years of service @ 38.
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Moderately off topic here, but... Wow. You sure change your oil frequently. Does your owner's manual recommend every 3k? Or are you just going on the standard 3k that all the oil change places, etc. recommend? Most newer cars recommend oil changes somewhere around every 5-10k miles.TxAg wrote:I rotate my tires at every 3rd oil change...so that's about every 9,000 - 10,000 miles. It's just easier to remember that way.
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Check out this previous thread on the subject of vehicle maintenance:exigent wrote:Most newer cars recommend oil changes somewhere around every 5-10k miles.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 89&start=0
- Ron
On the bright side, if you turn the tires around, your odometer will spin backwards. Good for resale value.tetractys wrote:Putting tires on backwards can cause them to unravel under stress, so it's not a very intelligent thing to do. If the car is in alignment, and your not racing in circles, front to back is all that would ever be needed anyway. -- Tetsscritic wrote:And the statement about changing sides changing the direction of rotation is true for all tires, unless you want to remount them and put the white side-walls on the inside.
I would want to know if Toyota recommends tire rotations. On some cars, depending on the design of the suspension, the manufacturer actually does not recommend rotating the tires. Also, bear in mind that the increase in service life of the tires may be negligible, and given that many service shops employ careless buffoons, you risk damaging alloy wheels every time you dismount them.
Not saying you shouldn't rotate. But don't assume you should. The answer as to whether you should is in your owner's manual.
Michelin is an excellent choice, btw. You get what you pay for with tires.
Not saying you shouldn't rotate. But don't assume you should. The answer as to whether you should is in your owner's manual.
Michelin is an excellent choice, btw. You get what you pay for with tires.
i came to this thread hoping to see replies like "i never rotate tires - seems ok not to". because...guilty!
i used to. would do a free rotate during oil changes at that mathematically inclined chain. one time, on a whim, and because i'm suspicious of this type of thing, i just marked the front driver's side tire w/ my shoe on the way in. an unmistakable clean smudge on the tire. so, after oil change and tire rotation, as i'm getting into my car, i look at front tire. yup, still has that mark on it. they didn't rotate them at all. i let it go.
next oil change / tire rotation, i did the same thing. end result? same thing. they said they rotated but didn't. this time, i went back in, and told them they forgot to rotate. a weak apology and 30 minutes later, and then i got them rotated.
that kind of wore me down. so, put on another 30k miles w/out ever rotating. vehicle never pulled to a side, and the wear seemed pretty even on all 4 tires. i believe, w/out any hard data but 2 anecdotal data points, that tire rotation does not extend wear or prevent out of balance tires for vehicles that have good alignment and routine driving conditions.
anyone else take the lazy way out and never rotate? oil changes every 5k-6k? certainly. fluid changes and belt replacement every 30k? no way. i'm 170k and 10 years into a toyota highlander, and it's still running like a top, w/ no major repairs needed yet. (and probably on 3rd set of tires) (EDIT: 3rd or 4th set)
i used to. would do a free rotate during oil changes at that mathematically inclined chain. one time, on a whim, and because i'm suspicious of this type of thing, i just marked the front driver's side tire w/ my shoe on the way in. an unmistakable clean smudge on the tire. so, after oil change and tire rotation, as i'm getting into my car, i look at front tire. yup, still has that mark on it. they didn't rotate them at all. i let it go.
next oil change / tire rotation, i did the same thing. end result? same thing. they said they rotated but didn't. this time, i went back in, and told them they forgot to rotate. a weak apology and 30 minutes later, and then i got them rotated.
that kind of wore me down. so, put on another 30k miles w/out ever rotating. vehicle never pulled to a side, and the wear seemed pretty even on all 4 tires. i believe, w/out any hard data but 2 anecdotal data points, that tire rotation does not extend wear or prevent out of balance tires for vehicles that have good alignment and routine driving conditions.
anyone else take the lazy way out and never rotate? oil changes every 5k-6k? certainly. fluid changes and belt replacement every 30k? no way. i'm 170k and 10 years into a toyota highlander, and it's still running like a top, w/ no major repairs needed yet. (and probably on 3rd set of tires) (EDIT: 3rd or 4th set)
Ha! I have numbered all the wheels and note their positions before and after rotation. No one has failed to rotate them yet.jeff mc wrote:...because i'm suspicious of this type of thing, i just marked the front driver's side tire w/ my shoe on the way in. an unmistakable clean smudge on the tire. so, after oil change and tire rotation, as i'm getting into my car, i look at front tire. yup, still has that mark on it. they didn't rotate them at all.
Ho ho, funny!strafe wrote:On the bright side, if you turn the tires around, your odometer will spin backwards. Good for resale value.tetractys wrote:Putting tires on backwards can cause them to unravel under stress, so it's not a very intelligent thing to do. If the car is in alignment, and your not racing in circles, front to back is all that would ever be needed anyway. -- Tetsscritic wrote:And the statement about changing sides changing the direction of rotation is true for all tires, unless you want to remount them and put the white side-walls on the inside.
I wasn't joking about tries unraveling, although maybe that's not the best name for it. Some tires are designed to roll in a certain direction, and others broken in in one direction can fail when rotated or remounted to roll in the other direction. The sidewalls kind of delaminate and become lumpy. To me it looks like the threads unraveling inside the sidewall. Maybe modern tires don't do that anymore, because I haven't seen it for awhile.-- Tet
rotation
i wondered about the rotation issue and whether it would affect the tires. I didn't rotate the tires on my wife's car for 10,000 and they wore unevenly and are very noisy now. I"m not sure that i rotated tires very much in the past on any kind of schedule and never had a problem. so maybe has something to do with the tires (are Kelly tires). I don't know.
what i do now is to rotate every 5000 miles and go front to back on same side. i do it myself when changing the oil.
kelly
what i do now is to rotate every 5000 miles and go front to back on same side. i do it myself when changing the oil.
kelly
I have a 2005 Camry and rotate front to back which is what I believe Toyota recommends.
I am curious to hear what kind of wear you get on tires on your Camry. I have about 60k on my Camry and am on my third set of tires.
The OEM Bridgestones lasted about 35k and were pretty crappy overall (as most OEM tires are). I replaced them with Yokohama V4S which I liked but they only lasted about 22k. They had a 50k warranty, so the dealer worked with me on a replacement set. I considered the Primacy MXV4's but went with Goodyear ComforTred instead because of the 70k warranty. We will see if these are any better.
Maybe I am just hard on tires - or maybe the "warranty" is more marketing than actual substance.
Best regards,
Ken
I am curious to hear what kind of wear you get on tires on your Camry. I have about 60k on my Camry and am on my third set of tires.
The OEM Bridgestones lasted about 35k and were pretty crappy overall (as most OEM tires are). I replaced them with Yokohama V4S which I liked but they only lasted about 22k. They had a 50k warranty, so the dealer worked with me on a replacement set. I considered the Primacy MXV4's but went with Goodyear ComforTred instead because of the 70k warranty. We will see if these are any better.
Maybe I am just hard on tires - or maybe the "warranty" is more marketing than actual substance.
Best regards,
Ken
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- curly lambeau
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The Car Talk brothers say there is no problem with never rotating your tires, and that there is no point in doing it if it costs you more than $20. You aren't even going to break even vs. the cost of replacing your tires sooner.jeff mc wrote: anyone else take the lazy way out and never rotate?
I usually neglect to rotate my tires.
Ken,
Do you get similar low mileage from your tires on other vehicles, or is it just the Camry? I'm wondering if something might be wrong with your vehicle.
I have the Yokohama AVID TRZs (195/70-14) on my '98 4 cylinder Camry (198K miles). They have a 700 tread wear rating vs. 500 for your V4s. They have 35K on them and look like they'll go another 15K or so. Assuming the car does.
I've gotten between 50 and 60K from each set of tires for this car. I don't know if I'd read too much into this, though, as there is probably a fair amount of difference between my vehicle and yours. But I'd still think you'd get more than 30K out of a set.
I rotate every 5K for the first 15K of tire life. Then every 10K for the rest of the life. It's my understanding that new tires wear faster as the deeper tread flexes and squirms more on the road. So a bad wear pattern will set deeper into the tread compared to tires with less tread left. I use a pattern of LF->RR->RF->LR->LF. When I get a new set I take the best of the old 4 tires and make it the spare.
Do you get similar low mileage from your tires on other vehicles, or is it just the Camry? I'm wondering if something might be wrong with your vehicle.
I have the Yokohama AVID TRZs (195/70-14) on my '98 4 cylinder Camry (198K miles). They have a 700 tread wear rating vs. 500 for your V4s. They have 35K on them and look like they'll go another 15K or so. Assuming the car does.
I've gotten between 50 and 60K from each set of tires for this car. I don't know if I'd read too much into this, though, as there is probably a fair amount of difference between my vehicle and yours. But I'd still think you'd get more than 30K out of a set.
I rotate every 5K for the first 15K of tire life. Then every 10K for the rest of the life. It's my understanding that new tires wear faster as the deeper tread flexes and squirms more on the road. So a bad wear pattern will set deeper into the tread compared to tires with less tread left. I use a pattern of LF->RR->RF->LR->LF. When I get a new set I take the best of the old 4 tires and make it the spare.
Chip -
I don't think there is anything wrong with the vehicle. I had it aligned when I bought the tires, and re-balanced and rotated every 5k or so. My daily commute is about 15 minutes on pretty curvy and hilly roads (and about 15 minutes of highway), so maybe that is it. My wife drives a Dodge Caravan daily on the same roads. The OEM's on that also lasted about 30k and she's got about 40k on a set of Goodyear ComforTreds I don't think we will get 70k out of those but will probably get 50k. Maybe it's just where we live. I don't think I drive like a maniac...
I don't think there is anything wrong with the vehicle. I had it aligned when I bought the tires, and re-balanced and rotated every 5k or so. My daily commute is about 15 minutes on pretty curvy and hilly roads (and about 15 minutes of highway), so maybe that is it. My wife drives a Dodge Caravan daily on the same roads. The OEM's on that also lasted about 30k and she's got about 40k on a set of Goodyear ComforTreds I don't think we will get 70k out of those but will probably get 50k. Maybe it's just where we live. I don't think I drive like a maniac...
Yes, I'm glad to see someone else make this point about tires wearing faster when they're new. I think it's true. The point was made in a tire maintenance article I read in a 1997 edition of "Inside Track", put out by The Tire Rack. One of their tire gurus, John Rastetter, wrote the following about tire rotation:Chip wrote:I rotate every 5K for the first 15K of tire life. Then every 10K for the rest of the life. It's my understanding that new tires wear faster as the deeper tread flexes and squirms more on the road. So a bad wear pattern will set deeper into the tread compared to tires with less tread left. I use a pattern of LF->RR->RF->LR->LF. When I get a new set I take the best of the old 4 tires and make it the spare.
This article made sense to me, and I've always remembered it. Now, I can't say that I've been diligent enough to actually adhere to the recommended intervals or even consciously vary the interval in a pre-determined way as the tires age. However, the main take-away I got out of the article was to not wait too long to rotate your tires, especially the first couple of times. The interval I use is no greater than 5,000 miles the first couple of times, and general procrastination takes care of slightly longer intervals as the tires age, and I'm no longer as interested in them. Even then, it's in the 7,000 to 8,000 mile range.Since a tire's handling and hydroplaning resistance capabilities are directly linked to its internal construction, tread design and tread depth, it's important to use the same model tire on all four wheels. But it's also important for all four tires to wear equally -- which they don't. Front-wheel-drive vehicles generate almost three times as much wear on front tires as on rear tires; rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive vehicles tend to wear the shoulders of their front tires, and the middle of their rear tires -- if you drive with the power on a lot -- at a greater rate.
To equalize this wear you must rotate your tires -- swapping front to rear in a predetermined way.
The biggest question is, how often? While many drivers rotate their tires at 5,000 to 7,500 mile intervals, that may be too often, or not enough. While that sounds contradictory, the fact is that tires wear more quickly when they're new and should be rotated more often for the first third of their lifetime.
That's because the surface of a tire consists of hundreds of separate tread blocks. Each one is like the eraser on a pencil. The first time you use a pencil eraser, it sort of bends and flexes. As it wears down it becomes firmer. The tread blocks on tires work the same way. They "squirm" more when the tires are new because they are taller and further from the steel belts that are designed to stabilize them. It is not unusual for a tire's first 1/32-inch to wear off in as little as 3,000 miles, while its last 1/32-inch will take up to 10,000 miles of driving to wear off.
How do we deal with this? The initial rotation is the most important because it is done at the stage of a tire's life when wear occurs the fastest. For the first 15,000 miles of a tire's life, rotate it every 3,000 miles; for the next 15,000 miles, rotate every 5,000 miles; and from then on, rotate every 7,500 miles.
Using the old rule of rotating tires every 5,000 miles, you would do it 12 times over 60,000 miles. Using the above schedule, you still rotate the tires 12 times, but the intervals are based on typical tire wear rates, not some arbitrary number.
Ever since I started paying attention to tire rotation and using higher-than-recommended tire pressures (36 psi, say, instead of the car manufacturer's 32 psi), I've gotten very good life out of my tires.
Another reason to rotate tires on all-wheel-drive vehicles (Subarus, anyway) is that if the diameters of the tires vary too widely, it could cause premature wear on the drive train.
The rotation pattern I use is the one in the car's owner's manual, being careful not to cross sides of the car with directional tires. The tires that came with the new 2008 Outback Sport are not directional, so I do cross them as called for in the owner's manual. I'm not sure that the old directive to never change the direction of rotation for radial tires still holds, at least for passenger car tires. I've been doing it with non-directional tires for a long time now, and I've never had a problem with it.
--Pete
Petrico,
Thank you very much for the "Inside Track" article. I think it makes perfectly good sense. I like the eraser analogy.
Since I do have new tires, I'll give that sequence a go.
This has been a very informative thread. Who knew tires were so complex? I didn't.
Thanks to all who posted and those who continue to post.
WD
Thank you very much for the "Inside Track" article. I think it makes perfectly good sense. I like the eraser analogy.
Since I do have new tires, I'll give that sequence a go.
This has been a very informative thread. Who knew tires were so complex? I didn't.
Thanks to all who posted and those who continue to post.
WD
I have the same tires on my '04 VW Jetta. Great tires, by the way.
I used to rotate the tires (front to back only) every 7500 miles, but now do it every 15,000 miles. I figure there is little difference in lengthing the rotation period, mileage wise, and it saves effort. The idea is to have the tires spend equal time on the front and back of the vehicle. I would not extend the rotation period beyond 15,000 miles, though.
Your owner's manual may have the rotation sequence listed, but I believe it is usually only front to back (no cross rotation) with radial tires, and definitely a no no if there is a direction of rotation arrow on the tire.
--Nate
I used to rotate the tires (front to back only) every 7500 miles, but now do it every 15,000 miles. I figure there is little difference in lengthing the rotation period, mileage wise, and it saves effort. The idea is to have the tires spend equal time on the front and back of the vehicle. I would not extend the rotation period beyond 15,000 miles, though.
Your owner's manual may have the rotation sequence listed, but I believe it is usually only front to back (no cross rotation) with radial tires, and definitely a no no if there is a direction of rotation arrow on the tire.
--Nate
I have a Honda Accord with Maintenance Minder. It puts up a code to tell me to rotate my tires and change my oil. I think it comes on about every 7500 miles. I love this feature.
"Without discipline, no matter how good you are, you are nothing! One day, you're going to meet a tough guy who takes your best shot. Don't get discouraged. That's when the discipline comes in."
Peter-petrico wrote:Yes, I'm glad to see someone else make this point about tires wearing faster when they're new. I think it's true. The point was made in a tire maintenance article I read in a 1997 edition of "Inside Track", put out by The Tire Rack. One of their tire gurus, John Rastetter, wrote the following about tire rotation:Chip wrote:I rotate every 5K for the first 15K of tire life. Then every 10K for the rest of the life. It's my understanding that new tires wear faster as the deeper tread flexes and squirms more on the road. So a bad wear pattern will set deeper into the tread compared to tires with less tread left. I use a pattern of LF->RR->RF->LR->LF. When I get a new set I take the best of the old 4 tires and make it the spare.
This article made sense to me, and I've always remembered it. Now, I can't say that I've been diligent enough to actually adhere to the recommended intervals or even consciously vary the interval in a pre-determined way as the tires age. However, the main take-away I got out of the article was to not wait too long to rotate your tires, especially the first couple of times. The interval I use is no greater than 5,000 miles the first couple of times, and general procrastination takes care of slightly longer intervals as the tires age, and I'm no longer as interested in them. Even then, it's in the 7,000 to 8,000 mile range.Since a tire's handling and hydroplaning resistance capabilities are directly linked to its internal construction, tread design and tread depth, it's important to use the same model tire on all four wheels. But it's also important for all four tires to wear equally -- which they don't. Front-wheel-drive vehicles generate almost three times as much wear on front tires as on rear tires; rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive vehicles tend to wear the shoulders of their front tires, and the middle of their rear tires -- if you drive with the power on a lot -- at a greater rate.
To equalize this wear you must rotate your tires -- swapping front to rear in a predetermined way.
The biggest question is, how often? While many drivers rotate their tires at 5,000 to 7,500 mile intervals, that may be too often, or not enough. While that sounds contradictory, the fact is that tires wear more quickly when they're new and should be rotated more often for the first third of their lifetime.
That's because the surface of a tire consists of hundreds of separate tread blocks. Each one is like the eraser on a pencil. The first time you use a pencil eraser, it sort of bends and flexes. As it wears down it becomes firmer. The tread blocks on tires work the same way. They "squirm" more when the tires are new because they are taller and further from the steel belts that are designed to stabilize them. It is not unusual for a tire's first 1/32-inch to wear off in as little as 3,000 miles, while its last 1/32-inch will take up to 10,000 miles of driving to wear off.
How do we deal with this? The initial rotation is the most important because it is done at the stage of a tire's life when wear occurs the fastest. For the first 15,000 miles of a tire's life, rotate it every 3,000 miles; for the next 15,000 miles, rotate every 5,000 miles; and from then on, rotate every 7,500 miles.
Using the old rule of rotating tires every 5,000 miles, you would do it 12 times over 60,000 miles. Using the above schedule, you still rotate the tires 12 times, but the intervals are based on typical tire wear rates, not some arbitrary number.
Ever since I started paying attention to tire rotation and using higher-than-recommended tire pressures (36 psi, say, instead of the car manufacturer's 32 psi), I've gotten very good life out of my tires.
Another reason to rotate tires on all-wheel-drive vehicles (Subarus, anyway) is that if the diameters of the tires vary too widely, it could cause premature wear on the drive train.
The rotation pattern I use is the one in the car's owner's manual, being careful not to cross sides of the car with directional tires. The tires that came with the new 2008 Outback Sport are not directional, so I do cross them as called for in the owner's manual. I'm not sure that the old directive to never change the direction of rotation for radial tires still holds, at least for passenger car tires. I've been doing it with non-directional tires for a long time now, and I've never had a problem with it.
--Pete
Interesting article, but it is precisely because of the wear characteristics of tires on different types of cars (RWD, FWD, AWD) and the suspension design of the car (does the car rely, for example, on a lot of negative camber at the rear?) that certain manufacturers like BMW actually recommend against rotating the tires. On our Honda, on the other hand, tire rotations are recommended, as they are on our MB.
So while that is an interesting article, and I buy tires at Tire Rack all the time, I would again tell people that the proper answer to the question, "should I rotate tires" can be found in the owner's manual of the car, as you evidently know. If the manufacturer tells you to rotate, the manufacturer is doing so because the design of that car will allow you to get more treadlife, and more even treadwear, with rotations. If the manufacturer recommends against it, it is because the manufacturer, who understands the design parameters of its cars better than anyone, believes it should not be done.
This is not directed at you specifically, but people should realize there are very little "generalized" maintenance instructions for cars other than useless statements such as you need to change engine oil every so often. The design of the car will dictate the maintenance requirements, and the maintenance requirements -- everything from fluid intervals to whether to rotate tires -- is in the owner's manual. I understand that it's not exactly a page-turner in terms of reading, but I would spend a half an hour or so reading it given what the average new car costs. Then most of these posts here and elsewhere with basic car maintenance questions would answer themselves. Not that it's a bad thing that people come here, but it surprises me that such an intelligent group of people has to be told to read the instructions on something that oftentimes costs over $20k. Would you invest that much money and not read anything or do any research? Maybe it's just me. The other thing that annoys me in this area is that a lot of waste is involved with not reading the manual. For example many of the "quickie lube" shops like Jiffy Lube have people programmed to think that a 3k oil change interval is mandatory when in reality most of the manufacturers have gone to at least 5k miles and many have gone to 10k miles if synthetic oils are used. This is also true with gearboxes and transmissions. And yet you see these fluids being changed at intervals exceeding those specified by the manufacturer, and the result is a waste of money and bad for the environment -- where do people think all of that waste goes? Sure some is recycled but my mantra is to try to avoid waste in general.
So not to beat this to death, but read the manual folks. You'll save money. Your car will last a long time and you won't fill up landfills needlessly.
HTH.
I have a 2001 camry - the OEM Bridgestones lasted about 39k, but they were completely bald. I replaced them with Michelin Hydroedge. It's been 90k miles since and I still have about 10k left on them. Great tires.kenschmidt wrote:I have a 2005 Camry and rotate front to back which is what I believe Toyota recommends.
I am curious to hear what kind of wear you get on tires on your Camry. I have about 60k on my Camry and am on my third set of tires.
The OEM Bridgestones lasted about 35k and were pretty crappy overall (as most OEM tires are). I replaced them with Yokohama V4S which I liked but they only lasted about 22k. They had a 50k warranty, so the dealer worked with me on a replacement set. I considered the Primacy MXV4's but went with Goodyear ComforTred instead because of the 70k warranty. We will see if these are any better.
Maybe I am just hard on tires - or maybe the "warranty" is more marketing than actual substance.
Best regards,
Ken
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Amen! I am pretty familiar with the manual for my '94 Dodge Caravan, which I have owned for more than eight years, but I found something extremely useful a couple days ago while looking for something else.Dagwood wrote:So not to beat this to death, but read the manual folks. You'll save money. Your car will last a long time and you won't fill up landfills needlessly.
HTH.
A blown-up drawing of the ventilation controls showed a tiny symbol that looked like a car with tiny arrows inside of it. I couldn't remember seeing anything like that on mine. I looked closely, and there it was.
It turns out that in that position (which I always used except in cold weather), air is recirculated, which explains why the van was always hot whenever the temperature was above 65 unless the A/C was on.
If the little symbol had been replaced by the word "recirc," I would have seen it. But I won't get on a rant about the post-literate world.
exigent wrote:Moderately off topic here, but... Wow. You sure change your oil frequently. Does your owner's manual recommend every 3k? Or are you just going on the standard 3k that all the oil change places, etc. recommend? Most newer cars recommend oil changes somewhere around every 5-10k miles.TxAg wrote:I rotate my tires at every 3rd oil change...so that's about every 9,000 - 10,000 miles. It's just easier to remember that way.
I guess that was a little misleading. My company pays for the oil change/tires for my company car. Because I have a company car, I rarely drive my truck...usually on the weekends or around the ranch during hunting season. But yeah, I realize I'm erring on the side of overkill.
Good analysis...
Hi Dagwood,Dagwood wrote:Peter-petrico wrote:Yes, I'm glad to see someone else make this point about tires wearing faster when they're new. I think it's true. The point was made in a tire maintenance article I read in a 1997 edition of "Inside Track", put out by The Tire Rack. One of their tire gurus, John Rastetter, wrote the following about tire rotation:Chip wrote:I rotate every 5K for the first 15K of tire life. Then every 10K for the rest of the life. It's my understanding that new tires wear faster as the deeper tread flexes and squirms more on the road. So a bad wear pattern will set deeper into the tread compared to tires with less tread left. I use a pattern of LF->RR->RF->LR->LF. When I get a new set I take the best of the old 4 tires and make it the spare.
This article made sense to me, and I've always remembered it. Now, I can't say that I've been diligent enough to actually adhere to the recommended intervals or even consciously vary the interval in a pre-determined way as the tires age. However, the main take-away I got out of the article was to not wait too long to rotate your tires, especially the first couple of times. The interval I use is no greater than 5,000 miles the first couple of times, and general procrastination takes care of slightly longer intervals as the tires age, and I'm no longer as interested in them. Even then, it's in the 7,000 to 8,000 mile range.Since a tire's handling and hydroplaning resistance capabilities are directly linked to its internal construction, tread design and tread depth, it's important to use the same model tire on all four wheels. But it's also important for all four tires to wear equally -- which they don't. Front-wheel-drive vehicles generate almost three times as much wear on front tires as on rear tires; rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive vehicles tend to wear the shoulders of their front tires, and the middle of their rear tires -- if you drive with the power on a lot -- at a greater rate.
To equalize this wear you must rotate your tires -- swapping front to rear in a predetermined way.
The biggest question is, how often? While many drivers rotate their tires at 5,000 to 7,500 mile intervals, that may be too often, or not enough. While that sounds contradictory, the fact is that tires wear more quickly when they're new and should be rotated more often for the first third of their lifetime.
That's because the surface of a tire consists of hundreds of separate tread blocks. Each one is like the eraser on a pencil. The first time you use a pencil eraser, it sort of bends and flexes. As it wears down it becomes firmer. The tread blocks on tires work the same way. They "squirm" more when the tires are new because they are taller and further from the steel belts that are designed to stabilize them. It is not unusual for a tire's first 1/32-inch to wear off in as little as 3,000 miles, while its last 1/32-inch will take up to 10,000 miles of driving to wear off.
How do we deal with this? The initial rotation is the most important because it is done at the stage of a tire's life when wear occurs the fastest. For the first 15,000 miles of a tire's life, rotate it every 3,000 miles; for the next 15,000 miles, rotate every 5,000 miles; and from then on, rotate every 7,500 miles.
Using the old rule of rotating tires every 5,000 miles, you would do it 12 times over 60,000 miles. Using the above schedule, you still rotate the tires 12 times, but the intervals are based on typical tire wear rates, not some arbitrary number.
Ever since I started paying attention to tire rotation and using higher-than-recommended tire pressures (36 psi, say, instead of the car manufacturer's 32 psi), I've gotten very good life out of my tires.
Another reason to rotate tires on all-wheel-drive vehicles (Subarus, anyway) is that if the diameters of the tires vary too widely, it could cause premature wear on the drive train.
The rotation pattern I use is the one in the car's owner's manual, being careful not to cross sides of the car with directional tires. The tires that came with the new 2008 Outback Sport are not directional, so I do cross them as called for in the owner's manual. I'm not sure that the old directive to never change the direction of rotation for radial tires still holds, at least for passenger car tires. I've been doing it with non-directional tires for a long time now, and I've never had a problem with it.
--Pete
Interesting article, but it is precisely because of the wear characteristics of tires on different types of cars (RWD, FWD, AWD) and the suspension design of the car (does the car rely, for example, on a lot of negative camber at the rear?) that certain manufacturers like BMW actually recommend against rotating the tires. On our Honda, on the other hand, tire rotations are recommended, as they are on our MB.
So while that is an interesting article, and I buy tires at Tire Rack all the time, I would again tell people that the proper answer to the question, "should I rotate tires" can be found in the owner's manual of the car, as you evidently know. If the manufacturer tells you to rotate, the manufacturer is doing so because the design of that car will allow you to get more treadlife, and more even treadwear, with rotations. If the manufacturer recommends against it, it is because the manufacturer, who understands the design parameters of its cars better than anyone, believes it should not be done.
This is not directed at you specifically, but people should realize there are very little "generalized" maintenance instructions for cars other than useless statements such as you need to change engine oil every so often. The design of the car will dictate the maintenance requirements, and the maintenance requirements -- everything from fluid intervals to whether to rotate tires -- is in the owner's manual. I understand that it's not exactly a page-turner in terms of reading, but I would spend a half an hour or so reading it given what the average new car costs. Then most of these posts here and elsewhere with basic car maintenance questions would answer themselves. Not that it's a bad thing that people come here, but it surprises me that such an intelligent group of people has to be told to read the instructions on something that oftentimes costs over $20k. Would you invest that much money and not read anything or do any research? Maybe it's just me. The other thing that annoys me in this area is that a lot of waste is involved with not reading the manual. For example many of the "quickie lube" shops like Jiffy Lube have people programmed to think that a 3k oil change interval is mandatory when in reality most of the manufacturers have gone to at least 5k miles and many have gone to 10k miles if synthetic oils are used. This is also true with gearboxes and transmissions. And yet you see these fluids being changed at intervals exceeding those specified by the manufacturer, and the result is a waste of money and bad for the environment -- where do people think all of that waste goes? Sure some is recycled but my mantra is to try to avoid waste in general.
So not to beat this to death, but read the manual folks. You'll save money. Your car will last a long time and you won't fill up landfills needlessly.
HTH.
In general, I agree with everything you say. However, I still use my own judgment in many areas, and depart from the owner's manual.
Take tire rotation: I totally agree that the manufacturer has the best knowledge of typical wear characteristics of tires on their cars. So yes, I use their recommended rotation pattern. (Never had a car up-scale enough to recommend against any rotation, but if I had one, I'd do what they recommend.) But my bet with the Subaru is that they are most interested in protecting the drive train, and are only secondarily interested in tire longevity (if at all). I have this suspicion that there is some kind of pressure with manufacturers to push the limits of preventative maintenance, to keep maintenance costs low for better consumer reporting numbers, and to keep the nuisance factor down for more overall owner satisfaction. So when Subaru recommends a 7,500 mile rotation interval, I have no problem using a different one.
Likewise with tire pressures. Sure, I check the recommended tire pressures on the door jamb. But mostly that's just to figure out an appropriate pressure differential between the front and rear tires. I'm sure they know how to tweak the front and rear pressure for the most balanced handling, but I also think their recommendations weight comfort considerations too heavily for my taste.
So yes, while I generally agree with your position to get familiar with the owner's manual, I also reserve the right to diverge from it.
--Pete