5 Day Trip To London

[zachtede]

Planning a 5 day trip to London early in the New Year. It’s not a lot of time, so we’d like to really make it count. What do you folks recommend visiting? Is it worth taking a visit to the Stonehenge or leaving London for 1 of the days?

[neilpilot]

Suggest you do a search, since there are several fairly recent and extensive discussions on the subject. Specific to Stonehenge, I for one wouldn't spend time visiting the site. If you do feel compelled to venture outside of London, there are many excellent day trips that I consider much more worthwhile.

[ArtMan]

There is so much to see, but i'll suggest two often-overlooked attractions:

Cabinet War Rooms (also known as Churchill War Rooms). This is the subterranean headquarters used by the prime minister to shelter from the Blitz. Maps displayed like the war was still being fought, and a bucket of sand by Churchill's bed for his cigar. (No smoking otherwise, as I recall). I was there years ago, but I still have vivid memories. iwm.org.uk/visits/churchill-war-rooms

Also, I recommend the Dulwich Picture Gallery. Located in a lovely village on the edge of London, it was, I believe, the first purpose built art museum in Britain (or Europe?). Queen Elizabeth visited in 2000, following a major renovation.

Cheers!

[bobn60014]

Planning a 5 day trip to London early in the New Year. It’s not a lot of time, so we’d like to really make it count. What do you folks recommend visiting? Is it worth taking a visit to the Stonehenge or leaving London for 1 of the days?

We usually stay in the Bloomsbury-Covent Garden area and from there, we easily walk or take public transport to other areas. There is so much to see and do in London proper in 5 days, a trip to Stonehedge (you can't get up close to it) is a waste, imho.

[Watty]

I would suggest getting the Rick Steves London book to see what it suggests.

Be sure to check on how much you get to see at Stonehenge now. I vaguely recall that you cannot get up close it it now so it would be good to know what to expect. Unless you are very lucky I would also suspect that the weather will not be good for it in January. We skipped it when we were there.

It is touristy be we actually liked going up in the London Eye and like seeing it in movies but you may not want to travel a long way to see it. I do not recall the details but we had a minimal line to get on it but we may have been lucky.

You will likely get saturated on all the fantastic museums so carefully select the ones that are most appealing to you.

[delamer]

London is very interesting, but very busy/crowded. At least that was our experience this past Spring.

We also saw Stonehenge on the same trip (a port on our cruise which we started out of Southhampton). I don’t know what the other poster means by “you can’t get close to it.” It isn’t like Mt. Rushmore; there’s a path that circles it that gets with several feet of the stones at spots. But if you envision taking pictures of yourself sitting on one of the stones, then you are out of luck. It is roped off.

I’d find Stonehenge to be a nice break out in the country after a couple days In London, but I don’t know how long a trip it would be.

We enjoyed the Churchhill War Rooms, Westminster Abbey (sounds macabre but so many famous people buried there, including Mary Queen of Scots), and the Tower of London. We are really into history. We did private guides for the former two, which was great.

[Fairfox]

If “early in the New Year” is as early as January 5, I HIGHLY recommend Christmas at Kew: https://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/whats-on/christmas. Beautiful, fun, very London.

[bobn60014]

Forgot to add, but couldn't edit in time. If interested in WW2 history, a trip to Betchley Park in Milton Keynes, and/or RAF Museum near Hendon is always a great day trip out of the city.

[Dornhoefer]

If you like cities, I'd stay in London all five days because there is plenty to see there. Stonehenge is worth seeing but might better be saved for another trip, if possible, when you can take in more sights near it (Salisbury, for example).

There's so much to see in London that it's ludicrous to create a top 10 list, but here's mine (doesn't even include any museums):

—Westminster Abbey

—St. Paul’s Cathedral

—Tower of London

—Trafalgar Square

—Horse Guards, changing of the guards

—Portobello Market (and Portobello Road), Notting Hill

—Hyde Park & Kensington Gardens (walk/run)

—Knightsbridge, Brompton, Chelsea, and South Kensington (Insight Guides: London Walks, tours 12 and 13) (or replace with walking tour of these neighborhoods from another source)

—Bloomsbury (Insight Guides: London Walks, tour 19) (or replace with a walking tour of neighborhood from another source)

—Ferry to Greenwich from central London & Greenwich & Royal Observatory.

+1 on Churchill War Rooms.

[tigermilk]

Last time we were in London it was winter and very cold. Nonetheless we had a great time. On that trip we caught an organ concert at Westminster Abbey, had a great visit at the Imperial War Museum, Portrait Gallery, The Courtauld Gallery, and Museum of London. We also took a day trip to Bath which was great. I personally have not been to Stonehenge but think I would regret the day of travel for limited stuff. Perhaps as a side trip to Bath.

Our first trip to London had my wife dragging me through every square foot of the British Museum. That was 3 days in one museum. Would I spend 3 days there again? No, but it certainly worth a trip.

[Cruise]

If you want to do Stonehenge, do it right by getting up close and personal with the stones:

https://www.english-heritage.org.uk/vis ... ss-visits/

Fantastic experience!

If you have an interest in the subject matter, the best holocaust museum I’ve seen is: https://www.holocaust.org.uk/

A great Indian restaurant in Covent garden is https://colonelsaab.co.uk/

There is an organization of guides called London Walks. https://www.walks.com/

If you are a DaVinci Code fan: https://www.templechurch.com/

You know all about the regular tourist stuff. Have fun.

[mbres60]

We enjoyed Stonehenge. Make a list of everything you want to do and see and then determine which is most important to you and what you can fit in during your time. In 3 1/2 days we saw some of the British Museum (day we arrived so were tired and didn't spend as much time there), Westminster Abbey, Parliament, Churchill War Rooms, Tower of London, and Buckingham Palace (in summer it was open for tours). We saw Stonehenge after our cruise so not part of our time in London.

[dknightd]

I think if I ever go back that part of the World I'd take at least a day cruise on the Canals.

[rennale]

The problem with Stonehenge is that a visit will end up taking most of a day and, in January, it's likely to be pretty bleak out there. It's easy to predict that there will be strong winds, dark clouds and rain!

You could blunt the experience somewhat by visiting a nearby town - somewhere like Salisbury, with its lovely cathedral and town center.

As for London:

"Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London. No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford."
— Johnson to Boswell on September 20, 1777,

[Dornhoefer]

+1 on tours by London Walks. Good variety of tours and the guides have been consistently good on the tours we've taken.

[adamthesmythe]

I've been to Salisbury (not bad, nice cathedral, it was a stop on the way to the cruise port). I didn't go to Stonehenge. I would not make it my one trip out of London on a short visit. Consider Cambridge instead.

[Valuethinker]

The problem with Stonehenge is that a visit will end up taking most of a day and, in January, it's likely to be pretty bleak out there. It's easy to predict that there will be strong winds, dark clouds and rain!

You could blunt the experience somewhat by visiting a nearby town - somewhere like Salisbury, with its lovely cathedral and town center.

As for London:

"Why, Sir, you find no man, at all intellectual, who is willing to leave London. No, Sir, when a man is tired of London, he is tired of life; for there is in London all that life can afford."
— Johnson to Boswell on September 20, 1777,

The Skripal assassins - Russian emigres who were poisoned by novichok smeared on the doorknob by 2 Russian military intelligence (GRU officers) - the official story is "they went to Salisbury to look at the Cathedral". The public inquiry is on now - there's no clear trail from there to the perfume bottle which someone rescued out of the garbage 2 months later, gave to their girlfriend, and she died from it.

So interested in the city were the 2 GRU officers that they left the station and went 180 degrees *away from* the Cathedral (to visit the housing estate the Skripals lived on). Russian intelligence clearly does not teach map reading.

So clearly Salisbury Cathedral is a popular tourist destination .

[Valuethinker]

I've written a lot in other threads about London.

Oxford would be my trip out of town, unless I really wanted to see Stonehenge.

To reiterate, the walk along the South Bank down river from Westminster Bridge (Houses of Parliament) to Tower Bridge (not London Bridge, which is earlier) is fantastic, particularly in the early evening when the City is all lit up. Or in the daytime and visiting Tate Modern (for the Turbine Hall, if not the whole museum), St Paul's Cathedral (across the Millennium Footbridge), possibly Shakespeare's Globe Theatre.

London Eye is kitschy but everyone seems to like it. Remember to book ahead online.

A river cruise down to Greenwich or even Thames Tidal Barrier (Woolwich Arsenal) is well worth it - London's highway was once the River Thames, and you get more of a sense of the city and how it functioned through the ages.

Tower of London is really great history. But book ahead - it gets very busy.

tfl.gov.uk has a routefinder which includes walking and buses (Transport for London). Indispensable (I heard the app is not quite as good, I just use the website). There is not always a phone signal in the Tube stations (it varies).

Remember to look *both ways* when you cross the road. The cars will be coming from the right, not the left, but also we have a lot of one way streets.

Be careful of pickpockets and, especially, phone thieves on bikes & scooters -- the police warnings in Tube stations are very real-- don't pull out your phone as you leave the station. London is among the safest big cities in the world (probably after Tokyo)* but we have very skilled thieves.

* off the top of my head, less than 100 murders per year (60 is the number that occurs). New York, similar size of population, is over 200. And New York is the 30th most dangerous city in America ie a very safe city for its size. Many of the killings in London are with knives, between different youth gangs - so there's no reason for a tourist to have to worry.

[Valuethinker]

If “early in the New Year” is as early as January 5, I HIGHLY recommend Christmas at Kew: https://www.kew.org/kew-gardens/whats-on/christmas. Beautiful, fun, very London.

Yes. But book in advance. Especially in school holidays, it sells out.

[Valuethinker]

Planning a 5 day trip to London early in the New Year. It’s not a lot of time, so we’d like to really make it count. What do you folks recommend visiting? Is it worth taking a visit to the Stonehenge or leaving London for 1 of the days?

We are at 51 degrees north latitude - that's about the latitude of Calgary, Alberta in Canada.

So it's a very short winter day. And we can well be all rain and grey (most likely).

You can certainly do Stonehenge in a day. Check out the visitor centre etc online to see what you will be able to see, and how close to the stones themselves (visitor centre is award winning).

Otherwise, I would suggest a day in Oxford, with a walking tour from the Tourist Office there (check it out). Easy train ride out of Paddington Station (fares usually go down after 930). If you book more than 7 days ahead (www.trainline dot co dot uk ) then there are significant discounts.

[Valuethinker]

There is so much to see, but i'll suggest two often-overlooked attractions:

Cabinet War Rooms (also known as Churchill War Rooms). This is the subterranean headquarters used by the prime minister to shelter from the Blitz. Maps displayed like the war was still being fought, and a bucket of sand by Churchill's bed for his cigar. (No smoking otherwise, as I recall). I was there years ago, but I still have vivid memories. iwm.org.uk/visits/churchill-war-rooms

Also, I recommend the Dulwich Picture Gallery. Located in a lovely village on the edge of London, it was, I believe, the first purpose built art museum in Britain (or Europe?). Queen Elizabeth visited in 2000, following a major renovation.

Cheers!

Dulwich is neat. But if you have limited time and want to see art, National Gallery on Trafalgar Square, National Portrait Gallery (round the corner), Royal Academy on Piccadilly, Tate Britain (British art up to the 1930s or so), Courtauld Museum (probably one of my favourite small art museums - history of European painting since the 1300s). All of these are very central, within walking distance of each other (Tate Britain is at Pimlico, so that's a Tube journey or a walk upriver).

Tate Modern is an amazing structure (former power plant) but is modern art - and that depends on your tastes. The Turbine Hall exhibition is always worth a look (free, and just pop inside).

[mkbkxepq]

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[mkbkxepq]

When visiting the Tower of London, be sure to do the "Yeoman Warders Tour". The 'Beefeaters' are extremely knowledgeable and our particular one had us in stitches the entire time, he missed his calling as a stand up comi

[talzara]

Otherwise, I would suggest a day in Oxford, with a walking tour from the Tourist Office there (check it out). Easy train ride out of Paddington Station (fares usually go down after 930). If you book more than 7 days ahead (www.trainline dot co dot uk ) then there are significant discounts.

Trainline charges a commission and shows single (one-way) fares by default. If an off-peak return (round-trip) ticket costs less, a message will appear at the top-right offering to change your ticket. Click on this button. If you click on a single fare, the offer will disappear. The off-peak return tickets are still there, but you have to scroll down to see them below the search results.

If your credit card supports 3D Secure, you can use the National Rail Journey Planner, which automatically selects the off-peak return ticket if it costs less. When you click on Buy, it will take you to the train operator's website to buy the ticket without paying a commission. https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/journey-planner/

Many American tourists use Trainline to bypass European train websites that require 3D Secure. It is better to get a card that supports 3D Secure, such as a Barclays or Capital One card. Train tickets aren't the only thing that you can buy in advance. Most major tourist attractions in Britain offer online tickets at a 10% discount from buying at the ticket office.

[firebirdparts]

I'll say this - Stonehenge is terribly cold early in the year. The people who built it worshipped the sun there for over 1000 years and it didn't do one bit of good. If you've always wanted to see it, do it. Get day long bus tour that includes it. Maybe bath, henge, Windsor.

[johndrockefeller]

Churchill War Rooms is a must visit. Stonehenge was kind of a disappoint to me (but the trip out to Bath is nice). Spend as much time as you can walking around Chelsea, Marylebone, and Notting Hill. There are some great gardens to see as well.

[frugalecon]

Windsor Castle is very reachable by train, and is worth a visit.

Also, don’t forget theater!

[Valuethinker]

I'll say this - Stonehenge is terribly cold early in the year. The people who built it worshipped the sun there for over 1000 years and it didn't do one bit of good. If you've always wanted to see it, do it. Get day long bus tour that includes it. Maybe bath, henge, Windsor.

And now we find some of the rocks came from northern Scotland! And the others... from hundreds of miles away in Wales.

It marked the longest and the shortest days, and the times of equinox. So maybe what we can say the Sun always returns.

[Raymond]

To add to the previous recommendations:

The Wallace Collection
Victoria and Albert Museum
Chelsea Physic Garden
HMS Belfast (across the Thames from the Tower of London)
The Ceremony of the Keys at the Tower of London
Darwin Brasserie at The Sky Garden
"Frameless" immersive art experience - if everyone in your group is over 18, consider the Friday and Saturday evening "Frameless Lates".
Shakespeare's Globe
"Hadestown" - West End

My wife and I were in London last month and we visited all of these (except HMS Belfast and the Tower of London, which were on a previous trip.)

[BrooklynInvest]

If I were there for 5 days I'd take a day trip to Oxford, have lunch and a pint at The Trout, visit one of the old museums there.

While you're in London, a ride down the Thames to Greenwich Observatory is fun, the Vic & Albert Museum and the Tate Modern on South Bank.

Our favorite thing to do is cocktails at the Savoy before dinner at the Rules. A lot of money well spent!

[typical.investor]

Planning a 5 day trip to London early in the New Year. It’s not a lot of time, so we’d like to really make it count. What do you folks recommend visiting? Is it worth taking a visit to the Stonehenge or leaving London for 1 of the days?

I recommend afternoon tea at the library near Big Ben. https://www.thelibraryatcountyhall.com



I also recommend fish and chips from Dukes

https://www.dukeshotel.com/gbr.html

And some say this has the best Sheppard's pie in all of England. Call to make sure they are serving it that day - they will put in on the menu if they aren't.

https://www.buckinghamarms.com.

Lunch and tour of the Royal Opera House is excellent so is the British Museum.

Most of all, I recommend getting a walking tour with a photographer. They know the spots. It's worth the money I believe.

[Valuethinker]

If interested in Afternoon Tea, I would suggest some possible classics:

Brown's Hotel
Corinthia Hotel
Ritz

They may be too expensive, but these would be "classic" places to have tea. You won't need dinner.

[spitty]

We were in London 7 days last month and decided against Stonehenge since it's about 90 miles away and ropes keep tourists pretty far away, probably with good reason. We did catch a train to Hampton Court Palace (11 miles) and really enjoyed it. The Tower of London is really cool with lots more ornate art than I'd imagined. We didn't do the Yeoman tour but did watch on YT; we also toured the Tower bridge and enjoyed that. Westminster Abbey is majestic and historic but shoulder-shoulder crowded - too many visitors at one time IMO. Be sure to pay the extra few bucks to visit the upstairs "Queen's gallery". St Paul's cathedral is beautiful and was fun climbing up to the dome/going outside on the catwalk for city views. Luckily it didn't get bombed in WWII. Kensington Palace is also worth a visit, we walked thru Hyde park to get there. We first stopped at location of the Tyburn hanging tree at the NE corner of the park--50,000 hung there over 200 years starting in 1571. We booked timed admission for all these places before leaving. A few more historic, non tourist sites we found:
1-St. Magnus the Martyr church: has a very historic arch that formed part of the roadway approach to the original London bridge, also inside is a model of what London bridge looked like in the early 15yh century. And a piece of wood from A Roman Wharf built in 75 A.D.
2-Southwark cathedral and walk thru the adjacent Borough market.
3-Also toured V & A museum and Imperial War museum, both free.
The Warroom was crowded and stuffy with not enough light for aging eyes to see everything well YMMV, lol.

[Valuethinker]

St Paul's cathedral is beautiful and was fun climbing up to the dome/going outside on the catwalk for city views. Luckily it didn't get bombed in WWII.

My father served in the Royal Engineers, so please allow me a bit of history .... to add colour - not to question the fundamental result of what you are saying.

Small incendiary bombs landed on St Paul's, but dedicated teams of firewatchers - civilian volunteers, many of them employees of the Cathedral, were able to snuff them out with buckets of sand and manual stirrup pumps for water.

A large German high explosive bomb penetrated the front right had corner of the porch at St Paul's Cathedral (so the SW corner).

Had the bomb exploded, it would have done massive damage to the Cathedral.

A team of soldiers from an Ordinance Disposal squadron of the Royal Engineers ("Sappers") dug the bomb, which could have gone off at any time, out of the crypt of the Church. Hoisted it on to a truck and drove, sirens blazing, to the marshlands in Hackney in East London-- no doubt wondering every second whether they would make it through the next one. Where it was detonated safely.

So. It was bombed. Just not very successfully.

The City of Dresden in what became East Germany was bombed night and day by Allied air forces in February 1945 - USAAF and the Royal Air Force. The firestorm killed 10s of thousands of civilians, many suffocated and melted in the extreme heat whilst cowering in air raid shelters. Kurt Vonnegut writes of his experience of this as an American airman and POW in Slaughterhouse 5.

When Dresden Cathedral was finally rebuilt in the 1990s, after the end of the communist East Germany (DDR), the British government contributed to its reconstruction.

[CuriousGeorgeTx]

Lots of good advice. I may have missed it, but it didn't seem like the British Museum got a lot of love. I find it fascinating.

[nanotube]

We did the following day trips on a 7-day London trip. We stayed in an airBnB near St. Pancras/Euston so it was very convenience to hop on the amazing public transportation system to visit in and out of London every day.

• Dover white cliffs/Dover castle: easy train ride to Dover. Took a taxi to the cliff and back to the castle. Easy walk from the castle to the train station. Amazing mix of scenery and history all in one day.

• Cambridge: also easy 1-hr train ride. Took a guided walking tour around the campus, a punting tour along the river, and walked through some amazing art gallery.

The above two are easy to plan - can take a leisurely breakfast, go on the trip and be back to enjoy dinner in London since the trains are frequent (as long as there was no rail worker strike going on).

• Stonehenge/Bath/Lacock: since Stonehenge is far out of the way and only reachable by car/bus, typically people combine several other attractions on the same trip. It'll be a long day. We took the Stonehenge Private Viewing from Premium Tours that allow you to walk within the stone circle and get really up and close (but no touching) which IMO is worth it. There are several vendors that do this and they may have different allotted dates from each other so check around to see if there is one that works for you. The private tour is only allowed before the site opens or shortly after it closes. We took a morning tour which must depart at 5am. I think we came back after 5pm. So plan for a long day. The side trip to Bath and Lacock (an ancient village) was also nice, though you don't have much time at each stop.

[Raymond]

Forgot to add - Maybe for a longer trip, but consider attending a professional football (soccer) game - we saw an AFC Wimbledon (League 2) home game against Carlisle United. Had a great time and good seats, but were glad we didn't buy tickets in the areas behind the goals - one end was for the visiting fans, the other for the more "enthusiastic" home fans.

Our seats were in one of the home team fan sections along the length of the stadium, pretty sedate except for the occasional abuse shouted at the visiting fan section

AFC Wimbledon won 4-0, and the locals around us (great people) joked that we should visit more often.

[cbs2002]

EZ to find advice on how to spend time in London, so won't bother.

Agree that if you want to do a day trip (no need to as there is plenty in London), Oxford would be near the top of my list if you have not been there. Not a huge place but plenty of lanes, buildings and pubs to fill a day walking around town. You can pay for entry to some of the colleges, while others are closed. Walk Christ Church Meadow and go to the Pitt Rivers anthropology museum which is just bananas. If you are there at night you can go to Evensong at Christ Church Cathedral. It is a worship service and also an opportunity to be inside the cathedral "at work" for a time and can be quite striking.

[Mr.Chlorine]

DW and I loved the Tower of London! We spent almost a full day there. If you are willing to venture out of the city, the Highclere Castle (where Downton Abbey was filmed) is spectacular.

[Valuethinker]

Forgot to add - Maybe for a longer trip, but consider attending a professional football (soccer) game - we saw an AFC Wimbledon (League 2) home game against Carlisle United. Had a great time and good seats, but were glad we didn't buy tickets in the areas behind the goals - one end was for the visiting fans, the other for the more "enthusiastic" home fans.

Our seats were in one of the home team fan sections along the length of the stadium, pretty sedate except for the occasional abuse shouted at the visiting fan section

AFC Wimbledon won 4-0, and the locals around us (great people) joked that we should visit more often.

So yes. England has a distinguished and long history of fan violence & hooliganism. It's nothing like it was in the 1970s, however. Policing is heavy. Lifetime bans from games, as well as prison sentences, are awarded to supporters who get involved in violence. For noted football hooligans, they are not allowed entry into some countries during international tournaments -- European police forces share data. You can certainly get yourself banned from games for shouting a racial epithet.**

You sit with the home team. I would not want to attend game with the away team unless it was the Club I supported.

You will find there is one pub set aside for away-team supporters. Many pubs will ban the colours and other symbols of the away teams. So if you accidentally violate that, expect to be shown the door quite firmly.

(one caveat to that. It is easier to get tickets for an "away" team playing in London - they might not sell out all their tickets - whereas tickets for a club's Home games are almost always sold out ).

Don't ever be tempted by scalping because at best the ticket might get taken away from you. At worst you could have an interesting chat with the Metropolitan Police (again, the concerns re hooligans infiltrating the games).

Which stadium you go to in London does matter.

The big ones are:

- Wembley (the national stadium - and therefore you can have 2 away teams playing) - 100k seats?
- Emirates - Arsenal Football Club (Highbury Tube station)-- I think that's 60k seats
- Tottenham (it was White Hart Lane, but it's moved; NE London anyways) - new stadium
- West Ham United - which is now in the Olympic Park (E London)
- Chelsea (Stamford Bridge - W London)

smaller ones including:
- Charlton United (so SE London)
- Crystal Palace (SE London)
- Fulham - Craven Cottage in W London - I have a soft spot for Fulham FC for some reason (used to live around there)
- Wimbledon FC
- Queens Park Rangers (West London) - AFAIK the QPR fans still have something of a reputation
I've deliberately avoided mentioning Millwall. Millwall was infamous for its fan racism and violence back in the 80s. They have made huge efforts to clean that up (the club having gone through bankruptcy at least once) but no one who remembers Millwall from those days would want to go to their grounds. "Everyone hates us and we don't care" was (is?) the Millwall chant.

If it's Premier League game then tickets will be very hard to get.

Nowadays there are games played during the week, under floodlights. Not just Saturday and Sunday afternoon.

Games between nations (especially England-Scotland) can be quite fierce (the fans). Expect a pretty heavy police presence if you go to Wembley on a day like that. Also Scottish football in Glasgow still splits along sectarian lines, aka "The Old Firm" as the games are known: Celtics (Catholic) v Rangers (Protestant). That's always a tense day in Glasgow when they are playing.

To some extent the less big name clubs, with the die-hard fans, are more fun. You see real commitment. Once, as in when Leicester won the FA Cup Final, those years of patient loyalty are rewarded.

An alternative is to see a rugby game (technically: Rugby Football Union, there's also Rugby League, which is more of a working class sport, played in the North and in Wales). RFU is at Twickenham (near Richmond in West London, so a train ride from Waterloo). Rugby is "a barbarians' game played by gentleman" and it's very civilised. I've stood at an England-Wales game with an English supporter on one side, Welsh on the other. All very decent. *Except* rugby players tend to be very tall, and many fans are ex players from school, etc. So it can be hard to see when everyone stands up. Rugby is a cracking sport - think American football without pads. 5 (6) Nations Rugby can be sublime, ditto when Australia/ South Africa/ New Zealand are playing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_Natio ... of%20Italy.

(6 Nations these days: England, Wales, Scotland, France, Ireland + Italy)

** Following an incident in the 1980s at Hillsborough where the police mishandled crowd control (people became concerned the game was starting, pushed forward, and the front was crushed against a fence (the police were throwing people who clambered over the fence back into the press), 80 people were crushed to death, and the police then fabricated their notes and records to cast blame onto the fans (who were later exonerated)), English Football was radically reformed. Terraces (standing only) were abolished, numbered seating introduced etc. The cost of tickets became quite substantial and the game became acceptable weekend entertainment for the middle classes. After that TV football rights became truly big business (billions) and the industry became much more like North American sports leagues.

However. Unlike North America, football franchises cannot easily change cities - it happens very infrequently (I can only think of a couple of cases in the last 20 years). So there isn't the situation, largely, where municipal governments compete against each other to fund new stadiums etc.

[Valuethinker]

EZ to find advice on how to spend time in London, so won't bother.

Agree that if you want to do a day trip (no need to as there is plenty in London), Oxford would be near the top of my list if you have not been there. Not a huge place but plenty of lanes, buildings and pubs to fill a day walking around town. You can pay for entry to some of the colleges, while others are closed. Walk Christ Church Meadow and go to the Pitt Rivers anthropology museum which is just bananas. If you are there at night you can go to Evensong at Christ Church Cathedral. It is a worship service and also an opportunity to be inside the cathedral "at work" for a time and can be quite striking.

For some reason I prefer Oxford to Cambridge (my father would be rolling in his grave). I do like Oxford. Just walking along the canal (the boatyard in Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials series, which begins at "Jordan's College" in an alternate universe (where Europe is under a religious dictatorship headed by "Pope John Calvin"), is unfortunately now a housing development). Or doing a walking tour of the college - we took one organised by the town tourist office.

https://www.fantasticfiction.com/p/phil ... materials/ "Harry Potter for grownups". The heroine, Lyra Belacqua, spends 3 books growing up (with echoes of John Milton's "Paradise Lost").

If you do go to Cambridge the Kings College singers in the chapel there are famous (as is the chapel) - the BBC televises their Christmas Carol concert on Christmas Eve every year - watching it is a family tradition.

You can also attend a service at St Paul's Cathedral.

St Martins in the Fields on Trafalgar Square is also a working church.

[InvisibleAerobar]

If interested in Afternoon Tea, I would suggest some possible classics:

Brown's Hotel
Corinthia Hotel
Ritz

They may be too expensive, but these would be "classic" places to have tea. You won't need dinner.

Mariage Frères is "relatively affordable" at ~50 quids/ person, compared to ~80 quids/ person at the other places mentioned (and the likes of Fortnum & Mason). The tea served is perhaps the best of the lot, as Mariage Frères procures its own teas.

But I think the Ritz (and perhaps a few others) has musicians playing live, and the ambience is probably worth the price difference (I'm a sucker for jazz bands that play jazz standards).

Forgot to add - Maybe for a longer trip, but consider attending a professional football (soccer) game - we saw an AFC Wimbledon (League 2) home game against Carlisle United. Had a great time and good seats, but were glad we didn't buy tickets in the areas behind the goals - one end was for the visiting fans, the other for the more "enthusiastic" home fans.

Our seats were in one of the home team fan sections along the length of the stadium, pretty sedate except for the occasional abuse shouted at the visiting fan section

AFC Wimbledon won 4-0, and the locals around us (great people) joked that we should visit more often.

Only caveat to this would be that certain fans are known for boorish behavior (some bordering on thuggery), with Milwall being the most notorious of the bunch.

Otherwise, the level of petty sh*tehouse singing by English fans can get rather amusing.

Home team losing, and its fans rather silent? Away fans start chanting "is this a library" to the tunes of Donna È Mobile.

Away team losing, and there's no more train service after the match? Home fans chant "you lost, and you're walking home" to the tunes of Pachabel's Canon.

[exodusing]

If interested in Afternoon Tea, I would suggest some possible classics:

Brown's Hotel
Corinthia Hotel
Ritz

They may be too expensive, but these would be "classic" places to have tea. You won't need dinner.

Do you have a view regarding the afternoon tea at the Café Royal?

[oldcomputerguy]

DW and I loved the Tower of London! We spent almost a full day there. If you are willing to venture out of the city, the Highclere Castle (where Downton Abbey was filmed) is spectacular.

Never have been to Highclere Castle, always wanted to see it. According to Google Maps, it's about an hour and a half to two hours driving from downtown London to the Castle.

If one is a theater goer, then The Play That Goes Wrong will provide stellar entertainment. I laughed so hard that I hurt. (It helped in our case that my wife and I originally met doing community theater in our hometown about 48 years ago, so a lot of it hit home.)

[exodusing]

FWIW, here's our general itinerary for an upcoming trip to London:

British Library
Royal Academy, including Michelangelo, Leonardo, Raphael exhibition
National Gallery, including Van Gogh exhibition
British Museum
Salisbury Cathedral
Hever Castle
National Portrait Gallery
Courtauld Gallery

and probably some other miscellany. It's not our first time in London.

[Nicolas]

One problem with Westminster Abbey is the entrance fee is now £35, a bit less for seniors but not much. So for a couple just to get into the abbey that’s $84 USD at today’s exchange rate. But free if you attend a service. It was completely free the first time I went in the eighties. Even Saint Paul’s charges £25.

[Cruise]

If one is a theater goer, then The Play That Goes Wrong will provide stellar entertainment. I laughed so hard that I hurt. (It helped in our case that my wife and I originally met doing community theater in our hometown about 48 years ago, so a lot of it hit home.)

+1 on the play. Hilarious.

[spitty]

Small incendiary bombs landed on St Paul's, but dedicated teams of firewatchers - civilian volunteers, many of them employees of the Cathedral, were able to snuff them out with buckets of sand and manual stirrup pumps for water.

Thank you for filling in the story, I didn't go deep enough studying details. How tragic it could have been-just luck and very motivated citizens saved an amazing church.

[Raymond]

...You sit with the home team. I would not want to attend game with the away team unless it was the Club I supported.

You will find there is one pub set aside for away-team supporters. Many pubs will ban the colours and other symbols of the away teams. So if you accidentally violate that, expect to be shown the door quite firmly...

We knew enough to sit with the home team fans, and we checked the Wikipedia entries (which shows the team uniforms) for both teams before going. Fortunately, we had blue outerwear, which matched the home colors.

...However. Unlike North America, football franchises cannot easily change cities - it happens very infrequently (I can only think of a couple of cases in the last 20 years). So there isn't the situation, largely, where municipal governments compete against each other to fund new stadiums etc.

Funny you should mention this - AFC Wimbledon is a fan-owned club (much like the NFL Green Bay Packers) that formed in 2002 after the new owners of Wimbledon FC moved to Milton Keynes and changed their name to "Milton Keynes Dons F.C."

This move was a very sore point with the Wimbledon fans, as the MK Dons took their position in the English Football League with them, and used the "Dons" nickname of the original club. A older woman sitting next to us, a thirty-five-year fan of the original team who switched to the new club, said, "We never speak the name of the other team - like Voldemort, we only refer to them as "'The Franchise.'"

...Otherwise, the level of petty sh*tehouse singing by English fans can get rather amusing.

Home team losing, and its fans rather silent? Away fans start chanting "is this a library" to the tunes of Donna È Mobile.

Away team losing, and there's no more train service after the match? Home fans chant "you lost, and you're walking home" to the tunes of Pachabel's Canon.

We didn't hear any singing, that would have been hilarious

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Another +1 to "The Play That Goes Wrong"