Relative being scammed out of state (advice)

[northernisland]

Spouse's aunt appears to be deep into an internet scam where she has been told she is part of a government investigation and family members are at risk. Scammers are in her computer and have had her purchase a second phone and are sending to her bank branches. We just found out about this 12 hours ago but it has probably been going on for weeks. The aunt won't talk to any of us and is mad at her daughter, who doesn't know how to help. She thinks if she talks to us the scammers (who she believes are the government) will be mad at her. She's in her 80s and there is some family history of dementia, but we haven't seen any warning signs before this.

What we have tried:
-A family member and friend have filed the online FBI reports.
-A family member contacted the local police, but they could basically only just leave a number.
-I called one of the banks (WellsFargo) and they said that only the person on the account can do anything.
-Two family members are going to try to go in person and hopefully talk sense into the scam victim.

We don't know what else to do. Here are some ideas:
-Is it worth talking to an elder lawyer? What would we ask for?
-The family member's other account is Schwab. The daughter is going to try to talk to her financial advisor.
-Family member is in DC, if that makes any difference.

We are kind of out of options. It's like watching a slow motion bank robbery. Has anyone else intervened in a situation like this?

[PoppyA]

If the scammers are using a company like fed ex contact them. They will shut it down.

What does this mean? “ and are sending to her bank branches”

Contact all her services providers & banks & alert them. Follow up in writing. You have to be assertive. Ask to talk with a Supervisor. Don’t take no for an answer. Ask to talk to their security departments. All these places have procedures.

Time is of the essence here.

DONT TALK TO THE FINANCIAL ADVISOR. CALL NOW & TALK TO SECURITY..

Take the computer away. Change her passwords.

[RickBoglehead]

If a person is unable to manage their affairs, a family member can go to court and have them declared incompetent. Or, if they have a durable POA, they just have to follow the competency steps.

With our relative, it stated that two doctors had to declare her incompetent to make financial and/or medical decisions. We got 3. We then assumed control, and she ended up in assisted living with controlled access.

Friends of ours discovered that his parents had been withdrawing money, 7 digits over time, and giving it to scammers. Briefcase of money, buy gift cards, give scammers numbers. Banks kicked them out because they didn't respond to being notified that it was a scam, so they moved to other banks. Our friends took a "we're trying" approach instead of our approach, and as a result by the time they went to court, 7 figures were gone.

In the absence of legal avenues, a family member should get involved enough to involve police, and get banks agreeing that something is wrong.

[chinchin]

What does this mean? “ and are sending to her bank branches”

Probably to withdraw large amounts of cash.

[livesoft]

Is the relative still able to read things on the internet. Things like this:


https://wapo.st/4gN8O88

and this

https://wapo.st/4egQD97

[northernisland]

If a person is unable to manage their affairs, a family member can go to court and have them declared incompetent. Or, if they have a durable POA, they just have to follow the competency steps.

With our relative, it stated that two doctors had to declare her incompetent to make financial and/or medical decisions. We got 3. We then assumed control, and she ended up in assisted living with controlled access.

Friends of ours discovered that his parents had been withdrawing money, 7 digits over time, and giving it to scammers. Briefcase of money, buy gift cards, give scammers numbers. Banks kicked them out because they didn't respond to being notified that it was a scam, so they moved to other banks. Our friends took a "we're trying" approach instead of our approach, and as a result by the time they went to court, 7 figures were gone.

In the absence of legal avenues, a family member should get involved enough to involve police, and get banks agreeing that something is wrong.

Did you have a lawyer that helped you do this? How did you go about it? We'll go as fast as we can, but court and doctors sound like a slow process.

[northernisland]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

[PoppyA]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

This is great, but it’s not going to help much. Call the security departments. You are being too passive IMHO. Do you know a trusted aggressive person who can help you talk to these people?

[catlady]

Planet Money did an episode about scams like this recently. It’s unlikely they will get the money back so your focus should be on stopping the damage.

https://www.npr.org/2024/05/29/11979591 ... hacker-fbi

[bsteiner]

...
Is it worth talking to an elder lawyer? ...

Or perhaps a younger lawyer.

[delamer]

...
Is it worth talking to an elder lawyer? ...

Or perhaps a younger lawyer.

Which category do you put yourself in, Bruce?

More seriously, is there a type of attorney — in terms of their field of practice — who might be effective in managing this situation?

My MIL has had some minor (so far) problems with identity theft involving her credit cards. So I’ve wondered who we could turn to for help if the problem escalated to bank withdrawals (the ironic good news is that she isn’t very mobile so visiting bank branches isn’t going to happen).

[bberris]

Is the relative still able to read things on the internet. Things like this:


https://wapo.st/4gN8O88

and this

https://wapo.st/4egQD97

By the time the victim has paid out that much money they are "invested" in believing in the scam. Ironically, the more money they've paid, the more they are willing to pay.

[barnaclebob]

Can you call the local police, not to do an investigation aimed at getting the money back but have them do a welfare check? Ask if they can explain that no govt agency will act in the manner that she has been told. She may be willing to listen to a real person in uniform.

[RickBoglehead]

If a person is unable to manage their affairs, a family member can go to court and have them declared incompetent. Or, if they have a durable POA, they just have to follow the competency steps.

With our relative, it stated that two doctors had to declare her incompetent to make financial and/or medical decisions. We got 3. We then assumed control, and she ended up in assisted living with controlled access.

Friends of ours discovered that his parents had been withdrawing money, 7 digits over time, and giving it to scammers. Briefcase of money, buy gift cards, give scammers numbers. Banks kicked them out because they didn't respond to being notified that it was a scam, so they moved to other banks. Our friends took a "we're trying" approach instead of our approach, and as a result by the time they went to court, 7 figures were gone.

In the absence of legal avenues, a family member should get involved enough to involve police, and get banks agreeing that something is wrong.

Did you have a lawyer that helped you do this? How did you go about it? We'll go as fast as we can, but court and doctors sound like a slow process.

For the POAs, we had gotten them off the internet, and had them filled out and witnessed at the relative's bank, with the banking officers as the witnesses. For their doctors, we had HIPAA releases so they could talk to us, and we asked them if they agreed the person was not competent. They did, they signed. We then notified the various financial companies that we were executing the DPOA.

Have no idea if our friends got a lawyer involved or not.

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

Is the relative still able to read things on the internet. Things like this:


https://wapo.st/4gN8O88

and this

https://wapo.st/4egQD97

well, no, because they're behind paywalls.

[bsteiner]

...
Is it worth talking to an elder lawyer? ...

Or perhaps a younger lawyer.

Which category do you put yourself in, Bruce?

More seriously, is there a type of attorney — in terms of their field of practice — who might be effective in managing this situation?

My MIL has had some minor (so far) problems with identity theft involving her credit cards. So I’ve wondered who we could turn to for help if the problem escalated to bank withdrawals (the ironic good news is that she isn’t very mobile so visiting bank branches isn’t going to happen).

I'm at a senior level, but my level of experience won't necessarily help with this.

I don't know that any particular practice area would help a lawyer deal with this. The issue is getting her to stop giving the scammers money.

Here's an article in the NY Times about a retired lawyer being scammed: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/29/busi ... scams.html.

And here's one in New York Magazine about a financial journalist being scammed: https://www.thecut.com/article/amazon-s ... rants.html.

Perhaps something in one of these articles may be helpful.

[mhalley]

Maybe report it to adult protective services? Perhaps they could send someone out to talk to them.
You can find your state or local agency that receives and investigates reports of suspected elder financial exploitation by using the online Eldercare Locator https://eldercare.acl.gov/Public/Index.aspx
or calling (800) 677-1116.

[crag]

#1 recommendation....change her phone number. Will be much more difficult for them to coerce. Wipe computer and change email if possible.

[ResearchMed]

Maybe report it to adult protective services? Perhaps they could send someone out to talk to them.
You can find your state or local agency that receives and investigates reports of suspected elder financial exploitation by using the online Eldercare Locator https://eldercare.acl.gov/Public/Index.aspx
or calling (800) 677-1116.

Do financial firms have any responsibility to "notice" when someone seems impaired? I thought there was something about that... somewhere...
Not sure what they'd do in that case. Put a hold on transactions? And then what?

RM

[LilyFleur]

This is horrible. These scammers get the seniors very scared, and they feel they are protecting their families.

It happened to my mother. She was a CFP with very wealthy clients before she retired. But she had a bookkeeper helping her pay her bills who figured it out very quickly. She was cooperative with her bookkeeper when the bookkeeper explained it was a scam, but she had lost several thousand dollars already. My mom told me that the scammers told her that my son was in jail in Las Vegas, and he would be in big trouble if she told anyone, including me.

When my mother was driving dangerously and needed to stop, all of her friends and family asked her to stop driving but she had anosognosia and kept driving. It got so scary that one of her friends did something to her car so it wouldn't start. It got towed to the dealer. I called the dealer and spoke to the manager and explained the situation and asked them to stall the repair. I explained that she had dementia and I was her daughter, and that someone could die if he gave her the car back. He stalled for several days until we got temporary guardianship. (A family member had been documenting everything, and had already hired an elder care attorney, and the court date was scheduled.) The family member, an attorney, brought multiple witnesses to court, and dropped some sort of remark about, "Oh, I never realized I would be doing this when I clerked for _______ (fill in name of well-known regional judge)." Temporary guardianship was granted, and that day my mom was taken to a facility for testing. It was discovered she had vascular dementia caused by two strokes. (No wonder she was refusing to go to the doctor!) The doctor, also referred to thereafter as "the bad man" by my mom, told my mom she had to stop driving, and she was declared incapacitated. Fortunately, her trust was set up so that the corporate trustee stepped in and managed her finances after that. It was a huge relief.

The police did nothing when my mom was scammed. Her own estate attorney had already decided not to work with her anymore. It was all on the family to rescue her. (The family member fronted the money for the attorney retainer for the temporary guardianship.)

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

This is horrible. These scammers get the seniors very scared, and they feel they are protecting their families.

It happened to my mother. She was a CFP with very wealthy clients before she retired. But she had a bookkeeper helping her pay her bills who figured it out very quickly. She was cooperative with her bookkeeper when the bookkeeper explained it was a scam, but she had lost several thousand dollars already. My mom told me that the scammers told her that my son was in jail in Las Vegas, and he would be in big trouble if she told anyone, including me.

When my mother was driving dangerously and needed to stop, all of her friends and family asked her to stop driving but she had anosognosia and kept driving. It got so scary that one of her friends did something to her car so it wouldn't start. It got towed to the dealer. I called the dealer and spoke to the manager and explained the situation and asked them to stall the repair. I explained that she had dementia and I was her daughter, and that someone could die if he gave her the car back. He stalled for several days until we got temporary guardianship. (A family member had been documenting everything, and had already hired an elder care attorney, and the court date was scheduled.) The family member, an attorney, brought multiple witnesses to court, and dropped some sort of remark about, "Oh, I never realized I would be doing this when I clerked for _______ (fill in name of well-known regional judge)." Temporary guardianship was granted, and that day my mom was taken to a facility for testing. It was discovered she had vascular dementia caused by two strokes. (No wonder she was refusing to go to the doctor!) The doctor, also referred to thereafter as "the bad man" by my mom, told my mom she had to stop driving, and she was declared incapacitated. Fortunately, her trust was set up so that the corporate trustee stepped in and managed her finances after that. It was a huge relief.

The police did nothing when my mom was scammed. Her own estate attorney had already decided not to work with her anymore. It was all on the family to rescue her. (The family member fronted the money for the attorney retainer for the temporary guardianship.)

thank you for sharing your story. Shows this can happen to any of us at any time.

[oldfatguy]

Maybe report it to adult protective services? Perhaps they could send someone out to talk to them.
You can find your state or local agency that receives and investigates reports of suspected elder financial exploitation by using the online Eldercare Locator https://eldercare.acl.gov/Public/Index.aspx
or calling (800) 677-1116.

Do financial firms have any responsibility to "notice" when someone seems impaired? I thought there was something about that... somewhere...
Not sure what they'd do in that case. Put a hold on transactions? And then what?

RM

In my MIL's case, several financial institutions and her financial advisor questioned transactions she was making, but the scammers had prepared her with stories/reasons to tell them if questioned about it.

[michaelingp]

-Family member is in DC, if that makes any difference.

Is it actually D.C.? In Montgomery County (in Maryland, just north of D.C.) seniors have lost millions in "gold bar" scams. Since so many banks are intervening when seniors come in to withdraw cash, the criminals are telling the victims to buy gold bars online and give the gold bars to couriers posing as various government agents. I can assure you if your relative is in Montgomery County, police detectives will be very interested in becoming involved. I'm surprised your experience with law enforcement has not been positive. I am so sorry you are in such a difficult position.

[Atlantic_ave]

Physically go to the house and cut the cable to the internet. Every day if needed.

[jayjayc]

Get into her phone and mark the scammer's phone number as spam or block it. Aunt's phone won't ring again. Do the same to the scammer's email address.

edit: It just occurred to me that the scammer would likely spoof a different phone number.

[alexbogle]

May help to share some kitboga youtube videos with her too. Especially some of the earlier ones. She may recognize what she is experiencing there.

[dukeblue219]

-Family member is in DC, if that makes any difference.

Is it actually D.C.? In Montgomery County (in Maryland, just north of D.C.) seniors have lost millions in "gold bar" scams. Since so many banks are intervening when seniors come in to withdraw cash, the criminals are telling the victims to buy gold bars online and give the gold bars to couriers posing as various government agents. I can assure you if your relative is in Montgomery County, police detectives will be very interested in becoming involved. I'm surprised your experience with law enforcement has not been positive. I am so sorry you are in such a difficult position.

Honestly even if relative is in DC proper, calling Montgomery County police may be helpful to spur DC police into action or to alert MoCo banks about this person's name. It's been a huge problem in the DC area lately and all these departments work very closely together.

[CAsage]

This is a tough problem, because there is a big presumption in law and banking that adults have the right to do what they please with THEIR money. Hence the massive "social" fraud, wherein people are manipulated into giving it to thieves and scammers. Tragic. Banks and Brokerages are somewhat proactive about asking customers why they need to withdraw cash, or whether they really know who they are wiring funds too... but if you aren't there in the house with Auntie or Grandpa while they are being scammed, it's tough. You can warn her bank specifically that you suspect she is being defrauded so they may flag the account and spend a few more minutes talking to her... but they can't say no. If this was my relative, I would be at that house the first minute I could. because you really need to get Auntie or Grandpa off the phone and off the computer, and remove that bad influence. A new phone number is a good idea, and scrub or replace that computer. And somehow get the victim to just slow down, stop for a day, and think. Good luck.

[InMyDreams]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

Do a bit of homework first - does your police department have a financial crimes division? They will take this much more seriously than a front desk will. If you can contact them directly, that might help.

Also, does your state AG's office have an elder abuse &/or financial scam division?

Also - is there an authoritative figure in her life (clergy? brother? lawyer? doctor?) who might be willing to discuss this with her? She may be much more willing to listen to an authority figure than she is her own children.

[vinhodoporto]

This is a tough problem, because there is a big presumption in law and banking that adults have the right to do what they please with THEIR money. Hence the massive "social" fraud, wherein people are manipulated into giving it to thieves and scammers. Tragic. Banks and Brokerages are somewhat proactive about asking customers why they need to withdraw cash, or whether they really know who they are wiring funds too... but if you aren't there in the house with Auntie or Grandpa while they are being scammed, it's tough. You can warn her bank specifically that you suspect she is being defrauded so they may flag the account and spend a few more minutes talking to her... but they can't say no. If this was my relative, I would be at that house the first minute I could. because you really need to get Auntie or Grandpa off the phone and off the computer, and remove that bad influence. A new phone number is a good idea, and scrub or replace that computer. And somehow get the victim to just slow down, stop for a day, and think. Good luck.

Exactly this. What’s worse than the financial cost is in our family at least it also cost the victim all of their friends and most of their family relationships including grandchildren.

How much you can do really depends a lot on how willing the relative is to listen and failing that how willing police, doctors, courts are willing to get involved.

Every situation is different. Our case was pretty bad in that it basically became an addiction to the point where nothing else mattered to the victim.

Here are things we tried that didn’t work, although YMMV with your relative so definitely try:
1. Showing them evidence its a scam
2. Informing banks. Once the bank started to ask too many questions victim changed banks. Happened several times
3. Informing law enforcement and elder protective services. They both went and talked to victim without success. Elder services did a competency assessment and determined victim was not legally incompetent
4. Informing Doctors. They also determined victim was not legally incompetent. My sense was they didn’t want to get dragged into litigation. Although eventually a doctor convinced them to go to a nursing home
5. Courts. No point racking up legal bills if the doctors and elder services won’t say the individual is incompetent
6. Taking away phone / internet or changing contact information. Really hard to do (legally) without victim’s consent. Victim / scammer would find a way to get back in touch. Eventually victim started using computers at the library once they lost their home and internet

Here’s what eventually got it to stop:
1. For other reasons victim had to go to a nursing home. Even there the scammers were happy to take the $100/mo that the home didn’t
2. We were able to make the home aware and they agreed to call the police when someone came by to pick up $. Police (this was a small town and different jurisdiction than where’d we’d filed a report before) intercepted the scammer in the parking lot and told them if they ever came back to that town again they were going to be in big trouble

[northernisland]

Hi everyone, thank you for the help. Some updates:
1. WellsFargo wouldn't allow a mass removal and had flagged a fraud warning, but she seems to still be able to take out cash every day.
2. Relatives called 911 and had an officer come over and now have a police report and a referral for the fraud part. They are hoping to use this to get a temporary POA.
3. They are meeting with a lawyer Monday.
4. They talked to the Wells Fargo advisor, who said money had not been taken out in a while.

I wish things were going faster. The next step is probably to cut phone and internet, if possible.

It's tough because the person gets so deep into the fantasy. It's kind of an amazing--this is a very smart person who lived a professional life and has been in the city for decades. I'll try to update again but it will be a while.

[TSWNY]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

There is not much the police can do on the local level. I work tons of these cases and we end up referring them to U.S. Secret Service or HSI. The federal agencies have a lot more resources. 99% of the time the subpeonas that the Feds send out end up with the scams originating from over seas (Russia, China, India and Canada mainly). We've had a few cases where we end up grabbing couriers picking up cash or gold, but most of the time the money is gone. My squad alone is up to probably around $40-50 million in losses this year so far.

[TSWNY]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

This is great, but it’s not going to help much. Call the security departments. You are being too passive IMHO. Do you know a trusted aggressive person who can help you talk to these people?

You absolutely should file a police report. Chances are Detectives on the local level have a relationship with the federal agencies who have more investigatinve resources. If it's caught quick enough then there is a chance the money could be recovered depending on what kind of scam it is.

[LotsaGray]

If a person is unable to manage their affairs, a family member can go to court and have them declared incompetent. Or, if they have a durable POA, they just have to follow the competency steps.

With our relative, it stated that two doctors had to declare her incompetent to make financial and/or medical decisions. We got 3. We then assumed control, and she ended up in assisted living with controlled access.

Friends of ours discovered that his parents had been withdrawing money, 7 digits over time, and giving it to scammers. Briefcase of money, buy gift cards, give scammers numbers. Banks kicked them out because they didn't respond to being notified that it was a scam, so they moved to other banks. Our friends took a "we're trying" approach instead of our approach, and as a result by the time they went to court, 7 figures were gone.

In the absence of legal avenues, a family member should get involved enough to involve police, and get banks agreeing that something is wrong.

Did you have a lawyer that helped you do this? How did you go about it? We'll go as fast as we can, but court and doctors sound like a slow process.

For the POAs, we had gotten them off the internet, and had them filled out and witnessed at the relative's bank, with the banking officers as the witnesses. For their doctors, we had HIPAA releases so they could talk to us, and we asked them if they agreed the person was not competent. They did, they signed. We then notified the various financial companies that we were executing the DPOA.

Have no idea if our friends got a lawyer involved or not.

How could you secure a DPOA with a person declared not competent? POA must be granted by the principal and the principal must be competent todo so. If you already had the DPOA, you could have already acted. I am going to assume, you had a "springing DPOA". Additionally you should use the not competent document for the doctor (and likely a court, likely also need second doctor) to stop the principal from having power over the accounts. You having POA doesn't preclude the principal from acting on their own behalf.

[LotsaGray]

#1 recommendation....change her phone number. Will be much more difficult for them to coerce. Wipe computer and change email if possible.

And how do you propose to change the phone number on a new phone they had her purchase? Likely OP doesn't even know the number.

Also, why do you think you can just decide to change a family members phone number?

Reality is the OP and family either have to get aunt to cooperate (seems not likely right now) or get legal system involved to protect her from herself. If you start changing phone numbers, emails, moving money, closing accounts, etc, you are actually no better legally than the scammers; no matter how well intended your actions are.

[RickBoglehead]

If a person is unable to manage their affairs, a family member can go to court and have them declared incompetent. Or, if they have a durable POA, they just have to follow the competency steps.

With our relative, it stated that two doctors had to declare her incompetent to make financial and/or medical decisions. We got 3. We then assumed control, and she ended up in assisted living with controlled access.

Friends of ours discovered that his parents had been withdrawing money, 7 digits over time, and giving it to scammers. Briefcase of money, buy gift cards, give scammers numbers. Banks kicked them out because they didn't respond to being notified that it was a scam, so they moved to other banks. Our friends took a "we're trying" approach instead of our approach, and as a result by the time they went to court, 7 figures were gone.

In the absence of legal avenues, a family member should get involved enough to involve police, and get banks agreeing that something is wrong.

Did you have a lawyer that helped you do this? How did you go about it? We'll go as fast as we can, but court and doctors sound like a slow process.

For the POAs, we had gotten them off the internet, and had them filled out and witnessed at the relative's bank, with the banking officers as the witnesses. For their doctors, we had HIPAA releases so they could talk to us, and we asked them if they agreed the person was not competent. They did, they signed. We then notified the various financial companies that we were executing the DPOA.

Have no idea if our friends got a lawyer involved or not.

How could you secure a DPOA with a person declared not competent? POA must be granted by the principal and the principal must be competent todo so. If you already had the DPOA, you could have already acted. I am going to assume, you had a "springing DPOA". Additionally you should use the not competent document for the doctor (and likely a court, likely also need second doctor) to stop the principal from having power over the accounts. You having POA doesn't preclude the principal from acting on their own behalf.

Obviously the POA was signed before the person was declared incompetent... and it was springing.

Then, 3 doctors signed statements that they were not competent for either financial or medical decisions. They were out into a locked assisted living at the recommendation of medical professionals and had no access to anything.

A principal can't access finances if they don't know how to anyway...

[LotsaGray]

Hi everyone, thank you for the help. Some updates:
1. WellsFargo wouldn't allow a mass removal and had flagged a fraud warning, but she seems to still be able to take out cash every day.
2. Relatives called 911 and had an officer come over and now have a police report and a referral for the fraud part. They are hoping to use this to get a temporary POA.
3. They are meeting with a lawyer Monday.
4. They talked to the Wells Fargo advisor, who said money had not been taken out in a while.

I wish things were going faster. The next step is probably to cut phone and internet, if possible.

It's tough because the person gets so deep into the fantasy. It's kind of an amazing--this is a very smart person who lived a professional life and has been in the city for decades. I'll try to update again but it will be a while.

YOU CAN ONLY GET A POA BY HER AGREEMENT!!!! The person granting the POA, principal, must sign and must be competent at that time.

Additionally, granting you/someone a POA does not preclude aunt from acting on her own behalf. That is, she may give you the POA, but still turnaround and do whatever the scammers ask. Plus, she can revoke the POA at anytime.

You are either going to have to get her to voluntarily stop OR get the legal system involved. If she will not cooperate and is legally competent, unfortunately there is very little you can legally do.

[LotsaGray]

A principal can't access finances if they don't know how to anyway...

But using a POA to hide assets from a competent principal likely violates the POA. Even if not, the person simply revokes the POA and demands you return the funds. If you don't then you are civilly liable.

Unfortunately in this case, appears aunt may be fully competent and unwilling to cooperate. It can be very hard to protect someone from themself.

[RickBoglehead]

A principal can't access finances if they don't know how to anyway...

But using a POA to hide assets from a competent principal likely violates the POA. Even if not, the person simply revokes the POA and demands you return the funds. If you don't then you are civilly liable.

Unfortunately in this case, appears aunt may be fully competent and unwilling to cooperate. It can be very hard to protect someone from themself.

I guess "declared incompetent to make financial or medical decisions" by 3 doctors must be unclear.

Have a good day.

[mkc]

There were some good resources mentioned in Christine Benz's "The Long View" podcast with Kathy Stokes of AARP as a guest

The Long View
Kathy Stokes: Why Investment Fraud Is Growing by Leaps and Bounds

From the transcript, here's a fraud helpline you can call (bolding for emphasis is mine):

we also have a national helpline. It’s called the Fraud Watch Network Helpline. You don’t have to be an AARP member. You don’t have to be of a certain age. If you want to report a scam that you didn’t interact with, but you want to make sure people know about it, you give us a call and we’ll share that with Federal Trade Commission. If you’re not sure that that letter from the Publishers Clearing House is legit or not, give us a call. And if you’ve experienced fraud, or a loved one is in the midst of something and you’re trying to get them to break out of that ether, call that number. We have live specialists, probably about 200 of them around the country that will talk to you about what’s happening. And that number is 877-908-3360.

BTW, this was an outstanding podcast episode - highly recommend listening.

[LotsaGray]

A principal can't access finances if they don't know how to anyway...

But using a POA to hide assets from a competent principal likely violates the POA. Even if not, the person simply revokes the POA and demands you return the funds. If you don't then you are civilly liable.

Unfortunately in this case, appears aunt may be fully competent and unwilling to cooperate. It can be very hard to protect someone from themself.

I guess "declared incompetent to make financial or medical decisions" by 3 doctors must be unclear.

Have a good day.

I don’t recall op saying aunt was declared incompetent. Plus the doctors say it to the court and the court issued an order.

[PoppyA]

The daughter will go to the police today. Does she file a report? What can/should she ask for from the police? (For instance, if we need to go to court.)

This is great, but it’s not going to help much. Call the security departments. You are being too passive IMHO. Do you know a trusted aggressive person who can help you talk to these people?

You absolutely should file a police report. Chances are Detectives on the local level have a relationship with the federal agencies who have more investigatinve resources. If it's caught quick enough then there is a chance the money could be recovered depending on what kind of scam it is.

As you see I didn’t say don’t report it. I’m VERY familiar with law enforcement & fraud, plus I’ve been through this with a relative. I was giving advice as I know this to be a way that can work quicker than filing a report & waiting for the locals to contact the feds.