Backpacking: National Parks vs Wildernesses

[edgeagg]

Intended for the backpackers/trail runners and seekers of beauty and isolation on this list.

I used to hike and backpack national parks extensively, living in the PNW. In the last 5 years, I've pretty much switched to Wilderness areas for greater isolation, limited tourons and no need for permits.

Just got back from a 1.5 week mostly off trail trip in the Beartooth Mountains near Jellystone. Wonderful!


Am I just a cranky (middle aged) man - CMAM? Or do others share my experience?
ea

[livesoft]

Not cranky. Not crazy. I love going off trail. Just spent 3 weeks hiking in Alaska mostly on trails, but also not on trails.

I did learn of the term "spraying" which is probably something one has to watch out for especially here on Bogleheads.org because backpacking is NOT a financial topic and humble bragging often appears here. (See how I worked in 3 weeks versus your 1.5 weeks? )

https://www.womensbouldering.com/post/t ... e-question

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2009/04 ... spray.html

Are you using caltopo?

[rogue_economist]

I have not been to a national park in several years. The popular ones have been ruined. Millions of people cramming into them in a short season, overrunning the place to take photos of it so they can plaster their Instagram with selfies in front of the geyser or glacier or whatever it is. Completely missing the point of the parks in favor of some absurd self aggrandizing narcissistic need to show everyone that they checked off the box.

For now wilderness areas are definitely a better place, much better bang for your buck (I guess that angle makes it a personal consumer issue, if you have x dollars and y weeks of vacation your utility will be optimized by not going to the popular national parks).

Also the unpopular national parks can be decent values still. Not everyone is lining up to take selfies at Sharpsburg.

But given time I expect the same people that ruined our national parks will ruin the wilderness areas. Don Henley said it best

They call it paradise
I don't know why
You call someplace paradise
Kiss it goodbye

[runner3081]

Moved from the Seattle area many years ago, it is crazy. Any random trail close to the city has people parking miles away from the trail head and it is packed. Not a fun time.

[livesoft]

One can always take up backcountry ski camping in order to avoid the normal crowds.

[heyyou]

A couple of decades ago, in my earliest retirement years, I spent hundreds of hours doing volunteer, solo trail work on the trans-state Arizona Trail where it passes through the then rough and rocky Mazatzal Wilderness Area. I like those places where the trail tread is, shall we say "interesting," but many others want gravel sidewalk so they can make more miles per day, where their speed/distance matters more to them, than just being in the wilderness.

For Bogleheads, finding an active, entertaining, inexpensive retirement hobby is helpful for financial longevity in retirement.

[iamlucky13]

I would be getting out into the wilderness, if I had the time to spend. But it takes more time to prepare for and more time to reach the wilderness. Also, some of the wilderness areas in Washington are at the point where there are access quotas, or even lotteries just to be allowed in.

So I still usually end up spending my limited time outdoors at national or state parks and forests.

The National Parks are designated as such for very good reason, but the result is very often crowds.

Instagram and compact battery-powered speakers have both made the most accessible locations significantly worse in recent years.

And it's not just the lack of parking at trailheads, the garbage on the trails, and obnoxious noises from some of the other hikers. I have effectively written off half of my available time to go hiking, because of how long it takes to get home on Sundays through traffic that has exploded by leaps and bounds over the last decade or so.

[hammockhiker]

I used to hike and backpack national parks extensively, living in the PNW. In the last 5 years, I've pretty much switched to Wilderness areas...
Am I just a cranky (middle aged) man - CMAM? Or do others share my experience?

I'm glad we have National Parks but give me a good Wilderness Area every time if I'm backpacking, for all the reasons you stated.

[mkbkxepq]

I hike/trail run in North Carolina every year. While there is gridlock and overcrowding in the Great Smoky Mountains NP, I am having a desolate adventure 40 miles away in a beautiful National Forest.

Same in Utah. Yes Zion is awesome. But I'll be all by myself on a backcountry road on BLM land. Thank you very much.

[saveinvestbecomefree]

I agree. I used to live out West and would visit a mix of National Parks and National Forests/Wilderness areas for backpacking and climbing. I often already avoided National Parks so I could go with my dog. Now I live in the Midwest but campsite permits are such a nightmare in National Parks now that I focus on National Forest areas for trips. People are using bots or getting on right away to grab multiple permits as soon as the system opens in March and good backpacking sites across the whole country are gone right away. It's such a low fee to reserve that people book multiple options and then don't even show. It's become too hard to plan a trip and you certainly can't do anything without planning a year or more in advance. Sometimes it takes multiple years to get a permit due to lotteries too. The days of planning a trip a few months in advance are over. Now I also try to find good National Park or Wilderness areas. Unfortunately it limits some of the top places I'd like to show my kids but there are still some good options. I feel like a grumpy old man reminiscing about the good old days.....at least on this topic.

[halfnine]

Well, I am not sure it has anything to do with being a cranky, middle aged man as I felt quite similar about it even back in my 20s. So much so that I pretty much disregarded anything to do with the AT. I eventually migrated towards off trail hiking in/around the treeline level plus/minus 1000 feet or so. Below that bushwacking tended to increase and above that typically led to more choss.

[Kagord]

GPS with SA off, and the invention of bear cannisters for above tree line, now makes off trail a lot easier, in the 70/80/early 90s having to use topo maps and a compass in a dense forest isn't the easiest. My adult kids have never used a paper map in their life and don't know what the counterbalance method is, lol.

I think Yosemite and the John Muir trail south (and the offshoot trails) were the most memorable. For wilderness, I liked the Marble Mountains (I guess I'll add Desolation), but for the last 30 years, haven't done much of this. So yeah, National Parks, raw beauty with congestion, and wilderness for serenity.

[livesoft]

I hike/trail run in North Carolina every year. While there is gridlock and overcrowding in the Great Smoky Mountains NP, I am having a desolate adventure 40 miles away in a beautiful National Forest.

My experience earlier this year in Great Smoky Mountains NP was an empty parking lot and very few people on the trails. GSMNP has over 800 miles of trails and many reservable backcountry campsites. The online reservation system is easy to use, too. Of course, if you are not camping deep in the park, then you are probably near the overcrowded places.

I was in Georgia before that backpacking. I even slept in 3-sided shelters without any reservations and no one else in the shelters.

Similar stories for Sequoia NP, Kings Canyon NP, and Grand Canyon NP: Once one is more than day hike away from a parking lot, there tend to be very few people. My last few trips to SEKI required no reservations because I went before May 22nd. I was in Baxter State Park in Maine as well as Acadia National Park. Didn't see anybody else:

[Zennor]

There is a line in Edward Abbey's wonderful Desert Solitaire I've always liked. Something to the effect of "I hope they never turn this place into a National Park, because then I won't be allowed to come here"

Wonder what he would have made of online reservations and Instagram?

[cs412a]

There is a line in Edward Abbey's wonderful Desert Solitaire I've always liked. Something to the effect of "I hope they never turn this place into a National Park, because then I won't be allowed to come here"

Wonder what he would have made of online reservations and Instagram?

Not a fan of Edward Abbey. Desert solitaire alternates evocative descriptions of the desert with a churlish attitude towards other human beings, including the Native American (and later Hispanic) people who actually inhabited the wilderness.

We call areas "wilderness" and ignore the people who actually lived there. For instance, Death Valley, one of the most challenging places in the US to live, is the ancestral home of the Timbisha Shoshone Tribe. Similarly, when John Wesley Powell explored the Grand Canyon, there were Native Americans who were aware of a number of places where one could ford the river and reach the canyon rim. They knew better than to advertise that knowledge, however. /rant off

I agree that there are too many visitors to some of the National Parks. It seems to me that we are in the process of developing ways to deal with the overcrowding, but that's always a slow process. I also agree that visiting National Forests and wilderness areas is a good work around for people who are up to that.

[rockstar]

Backpacking is a great way to avoid crowds. The more difficult usually the fewer crowds. Definitely continue to explore areas outside of NPs. I’d also give disperse camping a try too.

[edgeagg]

Not cranky. Not crazy. I love going off trail. Just spent 3 weeks hiking in Alaska mostly on trails, but also not on trails.

I did learn of the term "spraying" which is probably something one has to watch out for especially here on Bogleheads.org because backpacking is NOT a financial topic and humble bragging often appears here. (See how I worked in 3 weeks versus your 1.5 weeks? )

https://www.womensbouldering.com/post/t ... e-question

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2009/04 ... spray.html

Are you using caltopo?

Hello livesoft and others,
It is good to see that even if I am in a minority, I'm in a minority with others of my ilk. Caltopo: Absolutely. Here is what I do:

1. Caltopo with slope angle shading on for planning
2. Export as KML and import into Google Earth. Refine track based on Google Earth.
3. Export as GPX and then into Gaia/Alltrails and turn on Airplane Mode.
4. A week before I leave, import snow information from NOAA into Google Earth and make adjustments. Go to (2).

I'd never heard of "spray" before! How did you manage 3 weeks of food in Alaska? We had 11 pounds of food per person to carry....
thanks
ea

==
Also, here are some other wildernesses explored recently: The Wind River Range in WY, Sawtooths in ID, Pasayten Wilderness in WA.

[lthenderson]

Definitely not crazy. I've done many many backpacking trips in wilderness areas out west, mostly the Wind River mountains. But I haven't given up on hiking the backcountry of National Parks, especially the bigger ones. It is still possible to find lots of solitude there especially if off the trail. In my experience, I don't see many people beyond a half mile from any trailhead.

[edgeagg]

A couple of decades ago, in my earliest retirement years, I spent hundreds of hours doing volunteer, solo trail work on the trans-state Arizona Trail where it passes through the then rough and rocky Mazatzal Wilderness Area. I like those places where the trail tread is, shall we say "interesting," but many others want gravel sidewalk so they can make more miles per day, where their speed/distance matters more to them, than just being in the wilderness.

For Bogleheads, finding an active, entertaining, inexpensive retirement hobby is helpful for financial longevity in retirement.

Many thanks for your work. Volunteers like you keep trails alive!

[livesoft]

I'd never heard of "spray" before! How did you manage 3 weeks of food in Alaska? We had 11 pounds of food per person to carry....
thanks
ea

Occasional re-supply. I don't think there is any magic to tell you about.

[Random Musings]

Mostly hike, but have done a few backpacking trips with friends (mostly two days and one night) out west and in the Appalachians. There is solitude, to a point, because you are still with other people However, I would never overnight alone; not comfortable with that idea in terms of safety.

With respect to NP's and solitude, there are a good number of hikes where we will only see a few people, I don't really see an issue of crossing paths and saying hi to other hikers who have the similar interests. For this year's trip, we had viewpoints to ourselves far more often than I thought possible, including Mesa Arch in Canyonlands, Sand Arch and Pine Tree Arch in Arches NP, Hickman Natural Bridge at Capitol Reef (that was extremely surprising), almost the entire Mesa Top Loop in Mesa Verde (we went early, but not that early). Even at Delicate Arch, there were only six total people down by the Arch. I've found the North Rim of the Grand Canyon to be a very good place to find solitude.

However, far easier to find solitude in NF's and BLM land.

RM

[DurangoWino]

Aren’t the Beartooths wonderful. We have a wonderful route going up to Aero Lakes, then to Skytops area, down to Cairn Lake, down to Beaten Path at Dewey Lake, then out to Rainbow Lake. The highlight of the Beartooths is going off trail and exploring the areas not on a main trail.

Have hiked the Wind Rivers, Sawtooths, most of the Colorado Trail and all of the John Muir Trail. In Colorado the 4 Passes Loop near Aspen and the San Juans in the SW portion of Colorado are fantastic.

Were I to rank the areas/trails I would have to put the JMT #1, Winds #2, Beartooths #3, Sawtooths and Tetons #4. There are so many areas in Colorado that it has its own category.

Due to the grizzlies, have not hiked in Glacier.

Have fun exploring!

[edgeagg]

We took a route similar to yours. From Lower Lulu Pass -> Lone Elk (camp) -> Skytop -> Aero (Day) -> offtrail -> Fizzle -> More offtrail past Fossil and out through the Beaten Path.

If you don't go offtrail in the Beartooth, you will have missed the most beautiful parts. The hanging valley from Rough Lake to Fizzle Lake was an absolute dream flower garden with small waterfalls.

[HarmlessDrudge]

Much like OP, I spent much of my life in the PNW hiking Mt Rainier, the Olympics, etc. But when I went into National Forests, it was a whole different thing. Much more freedom, fewer crowds--and still a glorious experience.

[bertilak]

Backpacking is a great way to avoid crowds. The more difficult usually the fewer crowds. Definitely continue to explore areas outside of NPs. I’d also give disperse camping a try too.

Ever hear of Horsetail Falls in the Sierras?

We hiked/climbed up that from the bottom. Took pretty much all day. Not another soul around the whole day. This was back in the day when you needed USGS maps and a good compass to get anywhere. We were very proud of ourselves!

Nice lake at the top. There were girl scouts canoeing on that lake. Turns out we could have driven to the other end of the lake where there were canoe rentals.

Anyway, it was a fun and satisfying experience. It seemed like wilderness the way we did it!

[clip651]

Backpacking is a great way to avoid crowds. The more difficult usually the fewer crowds. Definitely continue to explore areas outside of NPs. I’d also give disperse camping a try too.

Ever hear of Horsetail Falls in the Sierras?

We hiked/climbed up that from the bottom. Took pretty much all day. Not another soul around the whole day. This was back in the day when you needed USGS maps and a good compass to get anywhere. We were very proud of ourselves!

Nice lake at the top. There were girl scouts canoeing on that lake. Turns out we could have driven to the other end of the lake where there were canoe rentals.

Anyway, it was a fun and satisfying experience. It seemed like wilderness the way we did it!

You definitely took the road less traveled, and enjoyed it! Thanks for the story.

[baconavocado]

I generally only hike/backpack in national parks because when I've gone into national forests and similar areas I've encountered livestock grazing in environmentally sensitive areas (polluting streams, rivers, etc.), off-road vehicles with their frequently inebriated occupants, people using guns irresponsibly, clear-cut forests, people polluting streams with mechanical mining equipment, and other activities that are not allowed in national parks.

What is their slogan,"Land of many uses."? I prefer not to be a witness to the many uses.

[twh]

Yes, the non-NP wilderness areas are more primitive in general and have fewer rules.

One I really liked was the Bridger Wilderness in the Wind River Mountains of Wyoming. Not many people. Lots of lakes with fish. Went on an old abandoned trail and got to a rarely visited lake. It was almost no fun fishing that lake

[AllMostThere]

There is a line in Edward Abbey's wonderful Desert Solitaire I've always liked. Something to the effect of "I hope they never turn this place into a National Park, because then I won't be allowed to come here"

Wonder what he would have made of online reservations and Instagram?

First time I have ever seen a reference to Edward Abbey here on bogleheads. Thank you for jarring my memories when I discovered this author 35 years ago. I have all his books that I may need to pull down off the dusty shelfs and re-read. Hayduk Lives!!!

[xb7]

My experience with national parks is that often if you get outside of a short hiking distance from a trailhead it thins out remarkably. Hiking through a part of Yellowstone, for example, on the CDT some years ago I was pretty much alone all the time until I got quite close to the tourist area. After walking through the dense crowded areas it thinned out surprisingly soon, most people just wanted to see the geysers that were not too many steps from their car.

National parks in some areas limit camping with reservations, which can be a PITA, but OTOH keeps the crowd density down --- sort of a devil's trade-off there.
In general my experience is that if you're willing to hike a few more miles in a day than average you have a better shot at working out a set of reservations, but this varies by the place and time. Try going to, say, Glacier N.P. while there's still lots of snow everywhere (and maybe the planking is not yet reinstalled in the cable bridges so you have to use horse fords to cross creeks). Pretty easy to reserve a campsite at that time of year

Wilderness is good too though !

[sink]

Big fan of wilderness camping vs national parks. Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana is one of the best.
Sadly, National Parks pushed to their max use, espec during peak months.

[White Coat Investor]

Intended for the backpackers/trail runners and seekers of beauty and isolation on this list.

I used to hike and backpack national parks extensively, living in the PNW. In the last 5 years, I've pretty much switched to Wilderness areas for greater isolation, limited tourons and no need for permits.

Just got back from a 1.5 week mostly off trail trip in the Beartooth Mountains near Jellystone. Wonderful!


Am I just a cranky (middle aged) man - CMAM? Or do others share my experience?
ea

There is an awful lot of great backpacking in national park like places, such as national monuments, national recreation areas, national forests etc.

There is some in national parks too, but certainly no reason to limit yourself to just parks. They're often overrun with challenging permit systems anyway.

[edgeagg]

There is some in national parks too, but certainly no reason to limit yourself to just parks. They're often overrun with challenging permit systems anyway.

I for one have had my fill of reservation.gov. In WA, we have a place called the Enchantments. It is now impossible to get in due to permitting (which I approve of). OTOH the Beartooth is like or better than the Enchantments and many thousands of times bigger. Most people do a trail called the Beaten Path in the BT, and ignore the buffet option of peaks, drainages and lakes that the BT offers to the well planned hiker.

[edgeagg]

Big fan of wilderness camping vs national parks. Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana is one of the best.
Sadly, National Parks pushed to their max use, espec during peak months.

Yes! Did the Chinese Wall 4 years ago. The Marshall is amazing and untraveled.

[WhyNotUs]

Am I just a cranky (middle aged) man - CMAM? Or do others share my experience?
ea

Both

[Nicolas]

There is a line in Edward Abbey's wonderful Desert Solitaire I've always liked. Something to the effect of "I hope they never turn this place into a National Park, because then I won't be allowed to come here"

Wonder what he would have made of online reservations and Instagram?

First time I have ever seen a reference to Edward Abbey here on bogleheads. Thank you for jarring my memories when I discovered this author 35 years ago. I have all his books that I may need to pull down off the dusty shelfs and re-read. Hayduk Lives!!!

There are actually eighteen other mentions of Edward Abbey on Bogleheads.

[AlohaBill]

When I started out hiking and backpacking in the late 60s and 70s, the population of the US was around 200,000,000. In the 50s it was about 150,000,000. Today it is about 340,000,000. Today, twice as many people are peak bashing than in the 50s. It is the same for doctors and nurses. Twice as many people are searching for good hospitals with good doctors and nurses.
I was always amused by the designation: pemigewasset wilderness in New Hampshire. During the First World War the whole place was denuded of trees for the effort. Are there "wilderness" areas in the States anymore?
Change is very hard to take sometimes. I miss Sears, Montgomery Ward, vibrant malls,
Pan Am, TWA and good old World Airways.
.

[AlohaBill]

BTW, if you want less crowds, do what I did: go winter mountaineering. There is not that much competition except maybe on Fujisan or Chomolungma (now that’s a hell hole).

[bertilak]

BTW, if you want less crowds, do what I did: go winter mountaineering. There is not that much competition except maybe on Fujisan or Chomolungma (now that’s a hell hole).

We went winter cross country skiing in the Sierras. I was surprised at how short the pine trees were. Turned out they were just the tops of trees mostly buried in deep snow.

California was so much fun!

[halfnine]

BTW, if you want less crowds, do what I did: go winter mountaineering. There is not that much competition except maybe on Fujisan or Chomolungma (now that’s a hell hole).

Actually mountaineering got quite popular as far back as 20 years ago. Enough so that I largely stopped. Used to be able to have a whole route to yourself. Now there are a lot of people on the mountain who simply don't belong there increasing the danger for everyone else. It is one thing to take your own risks with your mates but completely another to be swept off the mountain by a roped group sliding down from above you.

[xb7]

Big fan of wilderness camping vs national parks. Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana is one of the best.
Sadly, National Parks pushed to their max use, espec during peak months.

Yes! Did the Chinese Wall 4 years ago. The Marshall is amazing and untraveled.

The 'Bob' is cool, no doubt, kind of a stark beauty to it similar to the John Muir trail.
But I have a slightly different perspective. When I hiked the PNT (Pacific NW Trail), it starts and ends in national parks (Olympic NP at the west end, Glacier NP at the east end). Getting permits to start the trip isn't super difficult; calling to try to get permits en route for the end bit is a PITA, plus they have a sort-of NP called "North Cascades NP" en route that also requires permits. The PNT doesn't go through anything particularly impressive in that one, so that was just extra hassle (and almost no one in it when I walked through).

But. I have to say that the best parts of the PNT were the two national parks at the ends. Partly due to trail quality. The PNT is if anything even harder to follow and worse trail quality than the CDT, whereas the national parks were wonderful. And by far some of the best views in both the national parks. The Pasayten wilderness in NE WA state was quite good, but the national parks still stood out.

It varies though. The bit of Yellowstone I walked through on the CDT was largely burned and unimpressive. That's just for that particular trail route, however. The PCT goes through the John Muir trail, and that's very cool, despite doing it in lots of snow in the context of a PCT thru-hike. I did the Smokies in lots of snow (twice) on the AT, so I have a somewhat skewed view of that.

I think that most people plan and cherry pick best routes in national parks, and that makes sense, but it does put you together with a lot of other hikers that also want to do the 'best' stuff.

In terms of getting reservations --- I've only done the Enchantments in WA state once, ditto the Wonderland trail around Mt. Rainier. My conclusion was that places that require reservations are generally worth the hassle to see. For the Enchantments we got so-so reservations but showed up early for the walk-ins and were able to upgrade.

It is true that there are a lot of great places to hike if you want to avoid both crowds and reservations. Following up with more WA state examples, instead of hiking around Rainier on the Wonderland trail, one can do the Loowit trail around Mt. St. Helens or make a loop around Mt. Adams. I've done both. Neither are quite the paint-by-numbers experience of the Wonderland trail. The Loowit wasn't too bad, though I would only want to walk it with at least somewhat experienced hikers. The Adams loop includes maybe a third of the loop as off-trail bushwhacking, which for me included a pretty tough creek crossing. Still, it was a fun experience. I've climbed all of those mountains, once each, so walking around them was a neat alternative experience.

I think that it's "all good", it's more about tuning expectations, picking the experience that works for you and going in knowing what the upsides/downsides are.

[AlohaBill]

Half nine,
That’s sad to hear. I did most of my winter hiking in the seventies. After I went to the Marshalls for a 2 year Peace Corps "junket", I learned to love all things in sunshine and warm weather. Settled here in sunny California and travel mainly to Hawaii whenever the urge arises. Of course, walking for 20 minutes or so is my adventure nowadays. Cheers.

[Chrono Triggered]

Am I just a cranky (middle aged) man - CMAM? Or do others share my experience?
ea

Not at all.

I love national parks. They are in their specific area for a reason. I love hiking and backpacking in them too. That said, there are some national parks where accessibility to specific camp sites and solitude is difficult to obtain compared to non-national park areas due to the permit process and amount of visitors. Some, like Denali, are much easier.

I love national forests and reserves too, especially the ones that have similar experiences to the nearby national park. They have a lot more solitude. Depending on the national park, it may outlaw campfires so if that's important to anyone reading this, look at national forests instead since they allow it more often from my experience.

[folkher0]

National parks are great when you have little kids and don’t want to go too far off grid. The junior ranger program is fun. Car camping and short overnight hikes are a nice way to get them started. National parks are usually pretty well groomed.

As they get older I think seeking out more remote areas makes more sense.

[edgeagg]

The Pasayten wilderness in NE WA state was quite good, but the national parks still stood out.
...
In terms of getting reservations --- I've only done the Enchantments in WA state once, ditto the Wonderland trail around Mt. Rainier. My conclusion was that places that require reservations are generally worth the hassle to see. For the Enchantments we got so-so reservations but showed up early for the walk-ins and were able to upgrade.

I think that it's "all good", it's more about tuning expectations, picking the experience that works for you and going in knowing what the upsides/downsides are.

So I tend to optimize for not having people around. The Pasayten Wilderness is huge and worth exploring. Bugs can be an issue. Jerry Lakes are wonderful and hard to get to.

Enchantments: I've been there a few times. Nowadays the area is so overrun with people doing the 1-day Enchantments (why bother) that it seems like a theme park. Of course, I could be biased. I did say that I was cranky, didn't I?

[xb7]

Enchantments: I've been there a few times. Nowadays the area is so overrun with people doing the 1-day Enchantments (why bother) that it seems like a theme park. Of course, I could be biased. I did say that I was cranky, didn't I?

Tuck & Robin Lakes can offer mountain goats at least, if that's what you're looking for ...
Probably a lot of people there too, though as it's also something that can be done as a day trip.

[halfnine]

Half nine,
That’s sad to hear. I did most of my winter hiking in the seventies. After I went to the Marshalls for a 2 year Peace Corps "junket", I learned to love all things in sunshine and warm weather. Settled here in sunny California and travel mainly to Hawaii whenever the urge arises. Of course, walking for 20 minutes or so is my adventure nowadays. Cheers.

Yeah, I can't really complain. I did much of mine back in the 1990s and first half of the 2000s. It was a good time because there was enough information available out there that you weren't out there chasing dead ends or having to reinvent the wheel but not so much that everyone knew about the locations. After that timeframe information become more readily available, outdoor sports became exponentially more popular, and it became a bit too crowded for my liking. That is not to say that there isn't possibilities out there it's just that before you could do something over a 3 day weekend and now to get those same 3 days you are going to lose an extra day or two of travel to get to something more remote.

[Elsebet]

Moved from the Seattle area many years ago, it is crazy. Any random trail close to the city has people parking miles away from the trail head and it is packed. Not a fun time.

This was also our experience when we lived in Seattle.

Early one weekend morning we drove our truck to a trail that was difficult to reach on an old logging trail with huge ruts in the road. We thought it would be empty. Nope - parking lot was full. How the Prius cars even managed to get there I'll never understand. We waited about 30mins to see if anyone would leave then left without getting to hike.

Went up to Rattlesnake Ledge on an ugly drizzly winter day thinking it would be less crowded, ended up miserably hiking up it in a line of people. I will say in comparison the nearby Cedar Butte was empty in comparison.

In contrast, the trails near my new home in PA, while not as steep, are scenic and nearly empty.

[jjj_22]

It depends. Any NP is going to attract people that won’t visit a NF wilderness. So I mostly agree with you in WA, espec with all the camping and permitting regs for Rainier and ONP and to a lesser degree North Cascades. But say in SEKI and Yosemite, you can get off trail pretty easily and find lots of solitude and spectacular scenery. Though the wildernesses in Inyo and Stanislaus NF are just as good.

Some NPs are undervisited and also pretty awesome, like Great Basin.

[Ret2018]

I have to say that one of the most jarring experiences I've ever had was last year late spring shoulder season at the South Rim of Grand Canyon. Left at sunrise to hike down towards the river on a lesser known trail. Only car in the parking lot when I left; only saw 5 people the entire 8+ hour hike--until I got within a half mile of the trailhead on the way back. People like ants everywhere--and with dogs (no, dogs are not allowed on trails), and doing the most stupid stuff imaginable, hanging off rocks, trampling off trail, etc. Parking lot full, and others parked in clearly no parking zone.

So yes, you can easily getaway from the crowds in NP by hiking a bit. And boy does it hurt coming back!