Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

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RandomGuyOnInternet
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Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

All,

I need to purchase a vehicle this August. Below are the relevant details:

Colorado Resident
45 miles daily commute
Passengers - Mostly just me commuting to work, but will serve as back-up to family car. Must hold 5 people (2 adults, 3 kids) in a pinch.
Cargo - Compact car capacity is ok
Priorities (in order) - 1) Low true cost to own; 2) Reliability; 3) Safety; 4) Comfort; 5) Style

I'm leaning toward a Honda Civic Hatchback LX (~$26 MSRP), but the current federal ($7500) and state ($5000) rebates for EV purchases in Colorado make me think I must be missing a better deal out there. With the Chevy Bolt EUV currently on hiatus, I can't find it. What am I missing?

In addition, I've never leased a vehicle, but would consider it if the federal rebates helps drive the TCO below the Civic.

Appreciate your help. Thanks.

RandomGuy
nalor511
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by nalor511 »

I would not hesitate to get anything proven (no super new platforms) from Toyota, Mazda, Honda (in that order). I hesitate with EVs, because they just aren't selling batteries at reasonable costs, and I don't want a throwaway car in 10 years (e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth, same for Chevy bolt I Believe). Gas or hybrid, until they make batteries cheaper and more easily replaced. https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/ca ... 824554938/
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

It is certainly worth doing the research and writing down the numbers.

Insurance cost
Cost and frequency of tires.
Cost of electricity (no idea on Colorado. In my state, the Civic would be cheaper per mile)
Cost of gas.
Any special rebates or taxes (some states have implemented EV taxes since they don't pay gas tax)

Have you considered a hybrid? They seem to be the future with several manufacturers dropping or scaling back on EVs and ramping up on hybrids. No range problems. Great fuel mileage. Smaller battery so not as big of a weight penalty and tire wear.

And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
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grkmec
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by grkmec »

In case this matters to you - Tesla just added 0.99% financing for 6 years on a model Y. Personally I would go with a base Model Y and take the financing.
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RandomGuyOnInternet
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

grkmec wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:54 pm In case this matters to you - Tesla just added 0.99% financing for 6 years on a model Y. Personally I would go with a base Model Y and take the financing.
Good catch. I've never financed a vehicle in my life, but 0.99% in today's interest rate environment is hard to pass up. Especially when you consider that model qualifies for $7500 in federal tax credit and $5000 in state tax credit.

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RandomGuyOnInternet
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm It is certainly worth doing the research and writing down the numbers.

Insurance cost
Cost and frequency of tires.
Cost of electricity (no idea on Colorado. In my state, the Civic would be cheaper per mile)
Cost of gas.
Any special rebates or taxes (some states have implemented EV taxes since they don't pay gas tax)

Have you considered a hybrid? They seem to be the future with several manufacturers dropping or scaling back on EVs and ramping up on hybrids. No range problems. Great fuel mileage. Smaller battery so not as big of a weight penalty and tire wear.

And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
Great point. Admittedly, I need to crunch the numbers for myself. I was hoping someone on this forum had already done so and could provide some top-level guidance.

The main draw to the EVs for me is the $12,500 in rebates I can get with federal and state. I do not see similar figures for hybrids right now unless I'm missing something.

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Doctor Rhythm
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Doctor Rhythm »

nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm
(e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth …
Almost did a a double-take — there’s a brand that never gets mentioned on Bogleheads.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by ClassII »

Perhaps a base model Prius would be the ticket? The Prime model would be even better for those commute times. If in theory you could plug in at work you'd probably never run the gas motor at all.

That said I think Model 3s are selling for a pretty good bargain on the used market. Lots of 10 year old Teslas with perfectly good batteries and at that commute length you would be just fine with a slightly degraded battery. Chances are a Tesla would last for as long as you'd ever want to keep a car anyway.

Should be fairly straight forward to calculate your "fuel" bill on an EV based on your home power rate (make sure to check for late night EV rates, not just what you're using today) and compare it to gasoline. If you have solar then the math should greatly favor the EV.

Tires? Eh I think that's going to be splitting hairs as it's highly dependent on how you drive. EVs are extremely torquey and if you have lead foot you'll chew up tires faster than any gasoline muscle car. Drive like a normal person and they'll only wear marginally faster than a gas car. Plus any vehicle comes with terrible, low tread tires out of the factory.

I''d compare fuel cost and insurance and leave it at that.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by ClassII »

Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:21 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm
(e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth …
Almost did a a double-take — there’s a brand that never gets mentioned on Bogleheads.
Those 500e's were the ultimate compliance car. Chrysler/Stellantis sold them below cost to earn emissions credit for the rest of their horribly polluting cars. Plus they were already inexpensive so you add in the federal/state rebates and they were cheap as chips. I live in a county with its own EV rebates on top of state and federal and people were leasing 500e's for like $150/mo. In a way it really proved that for most people a small city car with little range was actually perfect. Its too bad it takes them being almost free to get anyone to pay attention to them.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (car).

(Thanks to the member who reported the post and explained what's wrong.)
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Triple digit golfer »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm It is certainly worth doing the research and writing down the numbers.

Insurance cost
Cost and frequency of tires.
Cost of electricity (no idea on Colorado. In my state, the Civic would be cheaper per mile)
Cost of gas.
Any special rebates or taxes (some states have implemented EV taxes since they don't pay gas tax)

Have you considered a hybrid? They seem to be the future with several manufacturers dropping or scaling back on EVs and ramping up on hybrids. No range problems. Great fuel mileage. Smaller battery so not as big of a weight penalty and tire wear.

And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
After reading your post I Googled a few hybrid cars. I'm shocked at how close they are in price to their all gas equivalents. Last I looked, probably years ago, hybrid cars were significantly more expensive.

Kind of wish we had considered a hybrid for my wife's Corolla purchase last year. I had no idea they were so affordable now.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by EricGold »

grkmec wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:54 pm In case this matters to you - Tesla just added 0.99% financing for 6 years on a model Y. Personally I would go with a base Model Y and take the financing.
It is a tremendous deal, but do yourself a favor and do not use the OEM tyres in Colorado winter.
The best deal ever is to combine the car purchase with PV. This is what I have at my home. I pay about 40¢ per 100 miles for clean energy. That is not a typo.
Last edited by EricGold on Sun May 12, 2024 3:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by beardsicles »

My Bolt EUV was $19k net, gets ~150mpg or better on a cost-equivalent basis, and functionally requires no maintenance. But YMMV.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Doctor Rhythm »

ClassII wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:25 pm
Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:21 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm
(e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth …
Almost did a a double-take — there’s a brand that never gets mentioned on Bogleheads.
Those 500e's were the ultimate compliance car. Chrysler/Stellantis sold them below cost to earn emissions credit for the rest of their horribly polluting cars. Plus they were already inexpensive so you add in the federal/state rebates and they were cheap as chips. I live in a county with its own EV rebates on top of state and federal and people were leasing 500e's for like $150/mo. In a way it really proved that for most people a small city car with little range was actually perfect. Its too bad it takes them being almost free to get anyone to pay attention to them.
I was actually referencing Fiat’s well-earned reputation for poor reliability (Fix It Again Tomorrow). From what little I’ve read, the 500 didn’t improve the reputation.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by windaar »

In '22 I sold my '09 ICE Civic for $9K. I've had 4 Civics and they have always held a strong resale value. Whether a 13 year old EV will hold value like that is for you to guess. My '22 Civic also gets almost 30 MPG and has 430 mile range, fills up in 5 min at almost any highway exit.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Nekrotok »

Nissan Leaf S for ~29k msrp - 3750 fed credit - 5000 Colorado credit - 2500 additional colorado credit = 17,750 seems like a steal if a deal to me. I'm no expert on these credits though, just spent 10s googling it based on what you said, so you may need to double check if that all works out or not. But I do have a leaf and would recommend it for in-town driving.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by aqan »

Personally I would not buy Bolt. We used to have Chevy Volt and I would never buy it again. I hear Bolt is worse than Volt in terms of visibility on the edges of windshield. The frame takes too much space and blocks the view. The software is also very annoying.
We upgraded to Model Y and it’s a pleasure to drive. So much so that we bought another one:)
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

RandomGuyOnInternet wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:21 pm
The main draw to the EVs for me is the $12,500 in rebates I can get with federal and state. I do not see similar figures for hybrids right now unless I'm missing something.

RandomGuy
$12,500? Pffffft. Peanuts. True story: I drove by the Maserati dealer last week and they had a Quattroporte out front with huge letters on it that said "$27,500 off". So there ya go. Sure, it gets 12 mpg and depreciates 50% in 2 years, but you get all this money off, right?

The absolute best government incentive scheme was when there was a $7500 tax incentive at the same time Chevy was providing a 30 day, no question return policy. It was a huge manufactured spending scheme to buy the Chevy Volt. Get the tax incentive that had no wording on how long you had to own the car, then return it within the 30 days and get your money back. Free money.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Leesbro63 »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:37 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm It is certainly worth doing the research and writing down the numbers.

Insurance cost
Cost and frequency of tires.
Cost of electricity (no idea on Colorado. In my state, the Civic would be cheaper per mile)
Cost of gas.
Any special rebates or taxes (some states have implemented EV taxes since they don't pay gas tax)

Have you considered a hybrid? They seem to be the future with several manufacturers dropping or scaling back on EVs and ramping up on hybrids. No range problems. Great fuel mileage. Smaller battery so not as big of a weight penalty and tire wear.

And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
After reading your post I Googled a few hybrid cars. I'm shocked at how close they are in price to their all gas equivalents. Last I looked, probably years ago, hybrid cars were significantly more expensive.

Kind of wish we had considered a hybrid for my wife's Corolla purchase last year. I had no idea they were so affordable now.
This is only true in theory. In reality the gas cars usually sell below MSRP while the hybrids fetch sticker plus high markup mandatory add-ons.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Leesbro63 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm

And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
Maybe a 10 year old Civic is now fetching half of what it cost new. But much of that is due to the inflation of the past few years. Normally, in a lower inflation environment, a Civic or Corolla will bring about 30%. Said differently, this may be a 1 time thing.

A better measure is what a 10 year car is worth vs a similar new car.
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Sun May 12, 2024 8:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Chan_va »

I owned the current gen Civic. It is practical, safe, well put together, and cheap to own. In addition the 2025 Civic is coming out with a hybrid engine. Just a couple of things you should consider, especially given that you have a 45 min commute each day

- The Civic is loud compared to its peers on the highway. Significant road and tire noise makes its way inside
- The seats lack lumbar support and adjustment. If you have back issues, its noticeable on long rides

The combo of these two things bothered me enough that I traded it in after only a year.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by TheRoundHeadedKid »

Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?
Absolutely, Chinese EV's can beat it for value even with the 100% US tariffs.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by YeahBuddy »

My answer is no. For value, I'm still taking Civic/Corolla/Prius/Camry/Accord.

Here's the main roadblocks I have as a Prius owner to EV ownership (and more specifically, Tesla):

depreciation
increased insurance cost
length of time to get bodywork completed
cost / hassle of installing home charging, and maybe needing to upgrade electrical system if 100A
tire wear
no chance I'm owning an EV more than 5-8 years (battery)


Teslas depreciate fast, cost much more to insure, take several months longer to get bodywork completed, generally need new tires sooner, and I wouldn't chance owning one that may need a new battery in its near future.


It's also noteworthy to mention the 0.99% financing applies to the Model Y only.
This model may be receiving a redesign soon and is also notorious for premature tire wear (due to excessive tow or camber from the factory that is very difficult/impossible to fix). The average lifespan of a model Y tire is 30k miles. That's not much.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by JMacDonald »

I think a better deal will be the Honda Civic Hybrid:

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/honda/civic-hybrid/

I had a Honda Insight which was basically a Civic.
Honda is discontinuing it for Civic.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:21 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm
(e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth …
Almost did a a double-take — there’s a brand that never gets mentioned on Bogleheads.
A colleague (in England) had a Fiat 500 (ICE). She said it was the least reliable car they had ever owned.

During lockdown, at one point there was a brief panic about petrol shortages (ie gasoline). Her spouse bought an eGolf (VW) as his "panic buy" of petrol.

I wouldn't go near a F500 with a bargepole. I think Stellantis regularly features, down with Jaguar Land Rover, as the least reliable cars on various surveys?
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

YeahBuddy wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 6:05 pm My answer is no. For value, I'm still taking Civic/Corolla/Prius/Camry/Accord.

Here's the main roadblocks I have as a Prius owner to EV ownership (and more specifically, Tesla):

depreciation
increased insurance cost
length of time to get bodywork completed
cost / hassle of installing home charging, and maybe needing to upgrade electrical system if 100A
tire wear
no chance I'm owning an EV more than 5-8 years (battery)


Teslas depreciate fast, cost much more to insure, take several months longer to get bodywork completed, generally need new tires sooner, and I wouldn't chance owning one that may need a new battery in its near future.


It's also noteworthy to mention the 0.99% financing applies to the Model Y only.
This model may be receiving a redesign soon and is also notorious for premature tire wear (due to excessive tow or camber from the factory that is very difficult/impossible to fix). The average lifespan of a model Y tire is 30k miles. That's not much.
Interestingly the battery life hasn't turned into a constraint, AFAIK. Other than for the Nissan Leafs -- where there was a clear design flaw, that they eventually fixed (something to do with battery cooling).

Linear falls continue in the price of batteries. The experience curve, which says the cost of a product drops 15-25% for each doubling of total stock (ie the total amount deployed; this is apparently called "Wright's Law") seems to be working for batteries in the same way it has for solar PV and wind.

There's certainly work to be done in design of EVs to make sure the battery can be extracted and replaced, economically.

I am not necessarily arguing that most drivers should choose an EV -- I don't disagree with your other points (and I am not US-based; our electricity prices are comparable to California (UK) but our gasoline prices $1-2/ US gallon higher). Certainly the economics (in California) seem to depend on the ability to charge at home and probably also having solar PV (so "free" charging during the day).

A question. When someone says they are paying $5.50/ US gal for gasoline in California, is there then a sales tax on top of that? i.e. 7% or whatever California sales tax is?). Our price is "all in" ie including the 20% VAT tax.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

10 year EV driver here.

A 45 mile daily commute is a perfect use case for a BEV, assuming you can home charge. The tesla would also work for shorter roadtrips.

If you have a second larger vehicle for hauling big cargo and longer roadtrips, no downside at all.

If you are ready to take the EV plunge, then go for it.

Leasing the def the way to go in 2024, EV or ICE, bc the whole market is being disrupted. Resale on both kinds of vehicles in 10 years will not follow historical norms. EV depreciation is caused by NEW EVs getting cheaper over time, not poor build quality. And as EVs get much cheaper than ICE, and DCFC get expanded, ICE resale will start to tank.

The EV products (and their prices) in 3 years will be much better than current.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by YeahBuddy »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 3:26 am
YeahBuddy wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 6:05 pm My answer is no. For value, I'm still taking Civic/Corolla/Prius/Camry/Accord.

Here's the main roadblocks I have as a Prius owner to EV ownership (and more specifically, Tesla):

depreciation
increased insurance cost
length of time to get bodywork completed
cost / hassle of installing home charging, and maybe needing to upgrade electrical system if 100A
tire wear
no chance I'm owning an EV more than 5-8 years (battery)


Teslas depreciate fast, cost much more to insure, take several months longer to get bodywork completed, generally need new tires sooner, and I wouldn't chance owning one that may need a new battery in its near future.


It's also noteworthy to mention the 0.99% financing applies to the Model Y only.
This model may be receiving a redesign soon and is also notorious for premature tire wear (due to excessive tow or camber from the factory that is very difficult/impossible to fix). The average lifespan of a model Y tire is 30k miles. That's not much.

A question. When someone says they are paying $5.50/ US gal for gasoline in California, is there then a sales tax on top of that? i.e. 7% or whatever California sales tax is?). Our price is "all in" ie including the 20% VAT tax.

No, the price per gallon is "all-in". I believe there is a federal tax of around 18 cents per gallon, and then state taxes which vary greatly by state.

Make no mistake, I "really want" an EV but the financials don't make sense for my current situation. Why sell a paid off 7 year old hybrid with zero problems, under 80k miles, that will likely be trouble free for another 5-10 years? If gas was much more expensive, the vehicle was much less fuel efficient, and had mechanical problems, I would be all in on EV. I already have solar and a $700 credit just sitting there that will grow this summer.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by ClevrChico »

With the Civic, you're likely to get twenty years of life out of it if you want to. Honda is good about having voluntary recalls take care of any design/parts flaw that happens out of warranty. Also, cheap parts and cheap insurance.
Last edited by ClevrChico on Mon May 13, 2024 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

YeahBuddy wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 5:41 am
Valuethinker wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 3:26 am
YeahBuddy wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 6:05 pm My answer is no. For value, I'm still taking Civic/Corolla/Prius/Camry/Accord.

Here's the main roadblocks I have as a Prius owner to EV ownership (and more specifically, Tesla):

depreciation
increased insurance cost
length of time to get bodywork completed
cost / hassle of installing home charging, and maybe needing to upgrade electrical system if 100A
tire wear
no chance I'm owning an EV more than 5-8 years (battery)


Teslas depreciate fast, cost much more to insure, take several months longer to get bodywork completed, generally need new tires sooner, and I wouldn't chance owning one that may need a new battery in its near future.


It's also noteworthy to mention the 0.99% financing applies to the Model Y only.
This model may be receiving a redesign soon and is also notorious for premature tire wear (due to excessive tow or camber from the factory that is very difficult/impossible to fix). The average lifespan of a model Y tire is 30k miles. That's not much.

A question. When someone says they are paying $5.50/ US gal for gasoline in California, is there then a sales tax on top of that? i.e. 7% or whatever California sales tax is?). Our price is "all in" ie including the 20% VAT tax.

No, the price per gallon is "all-in". I believe there is a federal tax of around 18 cents per gallon, and then state taxes which vary greatly by state.
I remember the Federal tax was set once, in the 1990s, and has never been increased, despite inflation. Thus, the roads fund is in deficit, I believe. That's going to get worse as there are more and more EVs.
Make no mistake, I "really want" an EV but the financials don't make sense for my current situation. Why sell a paid off 7 year old hybrid with zero problems, under 80k miles, that will likely be trouble free for another 5-10 years? If gas was much more expensive, the vehicle was much less fuel efficient, and had mechanical problems, I would be all in on EV. I already have solar and a $700 credit just sitting there that will grow this summer.
Best regards!
I would always tell someone:

- if they have an existing car with decent fuel economy and in good shape, then that's going to be a cheaper solution than buying a new EV. Unless they pay a very high price for gasoline (and not for electricity) and/or they do very high mileage (but in a sort of regular commuter configuration ie with home and at work charging).

Depreciation, in other words, is still the biggest cost in owning a car. Not fuel. Not even in the land of $7-8/ US gallon.

- if we think of planetary health, system-level impact, then keeping an existing (economical) car running is going to be better than a new EV. It's only if we *scrap* our existing gasoline or diesel engined vehicle (rather than someone else driving it) is there a significant net gain, and even that is only after a couple of years of driving. (Also assumptions about how your electricity is generated). (Note Just Frank has some good arguments why I am not right in saying this)

An obvious point too is that it's the mileage one does that is bad for the planet, so if one drives less (any vehicle) that's likely to be a good thing.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Valuethinker »

just frank wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 5:23 am 10 year EV driver here.

A 45 mile daily commute is a perfect use case for a BEV, assuming you can home charge. The tesla would also work for shorter roadtrips.

If you have a second larger vehicle for hauling big cargo and longer roadtrips, no downside at all.

If you are ready to take the EV plunge, then go for it.

Leasing the def the way to go in 2024, EV or ICE, bc the whole market is being disrupted. Resale on both kinds of vehicles in 10 years will not follow historical norms. EV depreciation is caused by NEW EVs getting cheaper over time, not poor build quality. And as EVs get much cheaper than ICE, and DCFC get expanded, ICE resale will start to tank.

The EV products (and their prices) in 3 years will be much better than current.
I agree very much with this - re the pace of change.

An unknown is how the very cheap, very innovative Chinese EVs that are available there get to western markets. It will depend very much on trade restrictions, construction of transplant factories etc. But the Chinese are apparently just way, way out in front in terms of what they offer - not only on price & model range but also on features etc. It all feels very much like Japanese v American small cars from the mid 1970s. A number of Western manufacturers will likely go to the wall unless there are really major trade barriers.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by FIRWYW »

My 2c. Without doing exact math, I would get a Camry hybrid or standard Prius over the civic. Cost is fairly close, smoother ride and better mpg so cost of ownership should be lower. (Nothing against civics but having test drove each of those vehicles in the last couple years, the Toyotas are better at that price point. ) all should be cheaper than any EV despite your awesome incentives and my love of driving our EVs.
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just frank
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 6:08 am
just frank wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 5:23 am 10 year EV driver here.

A 45 mile daily commute is a perfect use case for a BEV, assuming you can home charge. The tesla would also work for shorter roadtrips.

If you have a second larger vehicle for hauling big cargo and longer roadtrips, no downside at all.

If you are ready to take the EV plunge, then go for it.

Leasing the def the way to go in 2024, EV or ICE, bc the whole market is being disrupted. Resale on both kinds of vehicles in 10 years will not follow historical norms. EV depreciation is caused by NEW EVs getting cheaper over time, not poor build quality. And as EVs get much cheaper than ICE, and DCFC get expanded, ICE resale will start to tank.

The EV products (and their prices) in 3 years will be much better than current.
I agree very much with this - re the pace of change.

An unknown is how the very cheap, very innovative Chinese EVs that are available there get to western markets. It will depend very much on trade restrictions, construction of transplant factories etc. But the Chinese are apparently just way, way out in front in terms of what they offer - not only on price & model range but also on features etc. It all feels very much like Japanese v American small cars from the mid 1970s. A number of Western manufacturers will likely go to the wall unless there are really major trade barriers.
I wasn't thinking just Chinese EVs. I was thinking Teslas are going to get cheaper (to keep scaling sales at a profit). Their projections are 10% annual cost and price reductions, cumulatively for the next 7-10 years.

The current 'hybrid push' by the lagacy US makers is a bit of PR misdirection to cover the flop of their first generation of 'Tesla killer' BEVs. In reality they are replacing all their non-hybrid ICE vehicles with hybrid models (easy now that Li batteries are dirt cheap) and quietly preparing to ramp up production of their next generation BEVs. The latter BEVs will be serviceable and will sell, driving higher EV adoption, but won't be super innovative bc the legacy makers are not (yet) funding R&D at appropriate (i.e. existential threat) levels.

Once the legacy makers get scared (which they are not yet) and maybe some govt loans (bailouts), they too will make cheap EVs at a profit, and probably only be a generation (2 years) behind Tesla and the Chinese (if the latter are allowed in).
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by just frank »

Triple digit golfer wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:37 pm After reading your post I Googled a few hybrid cars. I'm shocked at how close they are in price to their all gas equivalents. Last I looked, probably years ago, hybrid cars were significantly more expensive.

Kind of wish we had considered a hybrid for my wife's Corolla purchase last year. I had no idea they were so affordable now.
The prices of lithium batteries have collapsed in the last few years, while their durability and performance have improved. And the $$$ penalties makers pay to sell low mpg vehicles have kept going up.

Each maker now needs to sell a fleet average of 49 mpg to avoid paying a penalty/credit per vehicle. So hybrids are priced to move.

Toyota is discontinuing the non-hybrid Camry in 2025.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Pdxnative »

I’ve owned civics and Corollas in the past for second and third cars. They were fine. Having switched to all EVs years ago I wouldn’t go back. Yes, EVs will provide as good or better value and frankly a more enjoyable ownership experience. Your 45 mile commute is an ideal use case.

Doesn’t CO give an additional 2500 for sub 35k EVs now? So potentially 7500 total?

The challenge with comparing Civics and EVs is that there aren’t a lot of EVs in that class. Leaf, Bolt, Kona have been the typical comparisons. If you want to move up to Ioniq 5, VW ID.4, etc, those are more expensive cars but also offer great value (civic is no longer the appropriate comparison; CRV is).

Anyway, I haven’t shopped recently but I hear there are lease deals around $200/month for something like a leaf, but also really great deals on other EVs. Driving something like a leaf essentially for free for 2 years seems like a good deal to me. Or spend a bit more for a crossover sized EV. Still will be less than a civic, no maintenance, lower cost to operate, better driving experience.

You wouldn’t necessarily need a level 2 charger for a second car and a commute like that. A regular outlet would be okay. But chances are pretty good that your utility would subsidize installation of a level 2 charger that combined with federal tax credit (if eligible) would make the cost minimal.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by 02nz »

Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:43 pm
ClassII wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:25 pm
Doctor Rhythm wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 3:21 pm
nalor511 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:45 pm
(e.g. Fiat 500e battery [which is tiny] costs more than the car is worth …
Almost did a a double-take — there’s a brand that never gets mentioned on Bogleheads.
Those 500e's were the ultimate compliance car. Chrysler/Stellantis sold them below cost to earn emissions credit for the rest of their horribly polluting cars. Plus they were already inexpensive so you add in the federal/state rebates and they were cheap as chips. I live in a county with its own EV rebates on top of state and federal and people were leasing 500e's for like $150/mo. In a way it really proved that for most people a small city car with little range was actually perfect. Its too bad it takes them being almost free to get anyone to pay attention to them.
I was actually referencing Fiat’s well-earned reputation for poor reliability (Fix It Again Tomorrow). From what little I’ve read, the 500 didn’t improve the reputation.
The 500 was pretty terrible, but the 500e was actually quite reliable ... because FIAT didn't build the powertrain, Bosch did. (And it being an EV, it's far simpler, with almost none of the parts that are most prone to breaking in an ICE vehicle.)
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by iamlucky13 »

3 years ago, I made this comparison and the Honda Civic was the more economical choice. Today, it looks like it is pretty close.

A quick take on the math, supposing you own it to 150,000 miles and resell it for 25% of original MSRP. I used US national average fuel prices and DOE economy ratings:

Honda Civic
- $26,000 + (150,000 miles / 34 mpg combined) * $3.64/gallon - $26000 * 0.25 = $35,559

Tesla Model 3
- $38,990 + (150,000 miles * (25 kWh / 100 miles combined)) * $0.15/kWh - $38,990 * 0.25 = $34,868

I did not include tax credits or maintenance costs nor did I bother estimating net present value of the future resale revenue. No particular reason for using the Tesla for the comparison except that it's currently the most common electric sedan.

Actual numbers will vary, of course. It sounds like EV owners in cold climates usually get worse mileage than the DOE ratings. At the same time, even though the specific trim of the Civic I have is only rated for 30 mpg combined, I have been averaging a little over 40 mpg due to efficient driving habits. On the other hand gasoline costs more than the national average for me, while electricity costs less. I did most of my own maintenance, and needed very little besides oil changes until around 215,000 miles.

You can personalize these numbers for your own situation.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by CloudNine33 »

2025 Civic Hybrid coming this summer, put a deposit on one last week for my daughter.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by iamlucky13 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 5:29 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
Maybe a 10 year old Civic is now fetching half of what it cost new. But much of that is due to the inflation of the past few years. Normally, in a lower inflation environment, a Civic or Corolla will bring about 30%. Said differently, this may be a 1 time thing.

A better measure is what a 10 year car is worth vs a similar new car.
30% resale value compared to original MSRP after 10 years for a Honda is consistent with the research I did when I was last shopping. I agree the current elevated used car pricing is likely to fade over time as the long term supply balance of used and new cars stabilizes. The average across all brands seems to be closer to 25%.

My research was generally consistent with brand and model-specific depreciation estimates from this site, and I believe archive.org can still be used to look up their old figures (although for old enough values, you have to look them up under their former name, usedfirst.com) to see how used car values have changed since the pandemic disrupted everything:

https://caredge.com/honda/civic/depreciation

Crazily enough, the 2020 Civic SI is currently still listing on Carmax for at least $2,000 more than I paid for mine. My understanding Carmax's listed price is what they actually sell at - no haggling allowed. I don't think other trims have as large of a premium, and of course, I can't trade it in for that value, but it still really drives home for me how skewed the market is that I've been driving for close to $0 depreciation for 3-1/2 years (I got mine at the tail end of availability for that model year)
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Leesbro63 »

iamlucky13 wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 11:58 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 5:29 pm
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:48 pm And as far as value, if you look at resale, I'd expect a 10 year old Civic to bring 50% of its original price. A similar EV?
Maybe a 10 year old Civic is now fetching half of what it cost new. But much of that is due to the inflation of the past few years. Normally, in a lower inflation environment, a Civic or Corolla will bring about 30%. Said differently, this may be a 1 time thing.

A better measure is what a 10 year car is worth vs a similar new car.
30% resale value compared to original MSRP after 10 years for a Honda is consistent with the research I did when I was last shopping. I agree the current elevated used car pricing is likely to fade over time as the long term supply balance of used and new cars stabilizes. The average across all brands seems to be closer to 25%.

My research was generally consistent with brand and model-specific depreciation estimates from this site, and I believe archive.org can still be used to look up their old figures (although for old enough values, you have to look them up under their former name, usedfirst.com) to see how used car values have changed since the pandemic disrupted everything:

https://caredge.com/honda/civic/depreciation

Crazily enough, the 2020 Civic SI is currently still listing on Carmax for at least $2,000 more than I paid for mine. My understanding Carmax's listed price is what they actually sell at - no haggling allowed. I don't think other trims have as large of a premium, and of course, I can't trade it in for that value, but it still really drives home for me how skewed the market is that I've been driving for close to $0 depreciation for 3-1/2 years (I got mine at the tail end of availability for that model year)
An old rule of thumb was that cars have a financial half life of 3 years. A $25,000 brand new car will be worth $12,500 in three years and $6250 in three more years. By the time the car is 9-10 years old, it’s more a function of how well it was maintained and luck. Hondas and Toyotas did better, but it’s still a good rule of thumb. In eras of high inflation, cars will do better than this, but the cost of the new car will be more too. So measuring a car’s value versus what a similar new car costs might be the best way to estimate a car’s expected depreciation. Put another way, most cars will be worth half of what it costs to get a similar new car in three to four years. And will be worth 25% of what it will cost to get a new similar car in 3 more years (6 years from new).
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Mon May 13, 2024 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by lazydavid »

Leasing a Polestar 2 is about the best deal going right now. The dual motor long range ($56k MSRP) is 299$/mo until the end of May, with approximately $3k due at signing. But if you are a Costco member, they have a stackable promotion through July that knocks $2k off that. So you're at roughly $9k all in for the 27 month term, after which you can buy it if you like. I rented one for a week roughly a year ago, and I can't imagine a better commuter car.

That's before considering state incentives. An extra $5k from CO would bring your cost down to $4k, or roughly $148/mo.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

All,

Thanks so much for all of the replies. There is a lot to consider above. Below are the current prices of a few notable vehicles (including dealer handling fees, current discounts in my area, and adjusing for tax incentives):

2024 Civic Hatchback LX - $26,045
2024 Corolla Hybrid LE - $24,595
2024 Subaru Impreza - $23,974
2024 Tesla Model Y - $33,880 ($38,880 purchase price (after fed tax incentive) minus $5k CO rebate)

Somebody please check my math, but even with ~$5k down payment, financing the Model Y (loan $33,880 at 0.99% for 72 months) appears to be worth almost $5k in value if alternative is investing the cash in a 5-yr CD at 4.80%.

This would seem to bring the Model Y price down into the Civic range. I guess the discriminator is unknown depreciation and cost of insurance on the Model Y.

RandomGuy
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by WhiteMaxima »

If you currently own a reliable car, it will beat EV for value. If not, depend on what your use (in city commute or cross country), that depends.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by mpnret »

lazydavid wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 12:15 pm Leasing a Polestar 2 is about the best deal going right now. The dual motor long range ($56k MSRP) is 299$/mo until the end of May, with approximately $3k due at signing. But if you are a Costco member, they have a stackable promotion through July that knocks $2k off that. So you're at roughly $9k all in for the 27 month term, after which you can buy it if you like. I rented one for a week roughly a year ago, and I can't imagine a better commuter car.

That's before considering state incentives. An extra $5k from CO would bring your cost down to $4k, or roughly $148/mo.
This looked real interesting until I pulled out Consumer Reports. Out of approximately 250 cars tested the Polestar 2 was second to last. Even the Mitsubishi Mirage beat it.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by RandomGuyOnInternet »

RandomGuyOnInternet wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 3:51 pm
This would seem to bring the Model Y price down into the Civic range. I guess the discriminator is unknown depreciation and cost of insurance on the Model Y.
I just spoke with my insurance company and got quotes for both Civic and Model Y. Model Y insurance was more expensive by $12/month. Not completely neglible, but not as much as I was expecting.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by FIRWYW »

RandomGuyOnInternet wrote: Mon May 13, 2024 3:51 pm All,

Thanks so much for all of the replies. There is a lot to consider above. Below are the current prices of a few notable vehicles (including dealer handling fees, current discounts in my area, and adjusing for tax incentives):

2024 Civic Hatchback LX - $26,045
2024 Corolla Hybrid LE - $24,595
2024 Subaru Impreza - $23,974
2024 Tesla Model Y - $33,880 ($38,880 purchase price (after fed tax incentive) minus $5k CO rebate)

Somebody please check my math, but even with ~$5k down payment, financing the Model Y (loan $33,880 at 0.99% for 72 months) appears to be worth almost $5k in value if alternative is investing the cash in a 5-yr CD at 4.80%.

This would seem to bring the Model Y price down into the Civic range. I guess the discriminator is unknown depreciation and cost of insurance on the Model Y.

RandomGuy
Since you did the math, out of those chooses, I would go with the Tesla.

Down sides: Our EVs cost more to insure. I have see a HUGE range of what people say it costs to insure their Tesla. Tires will cost more. And I would only consider if I lived close to a Tesla repair center (there is one about 7 miles from our home so is a non-issue for us). If you want removable ski/top rack. (Basically has to stay mounted on the Y or people report their top glass breaks)

Up side: MUCH nicer ride. Really it is apples to oranges. (Again, I like civics but test drive if you don’t believe me). Although different trunk space, the Tesla is better I think. Environmental effects.

Notes: people talk about road noise- mostly is you HEAR it more with an EV, not that it IS more. I have a PHEV (in addition to a BEV.) You notice squeaks/rattles in winter in EV mode, but soooo much quieter than in HV mode or driving ICE. (Rentals drive me nuts for the first day everytime we fly somewhere). No real button controls drive me nuts with Tesla. No caR play is stupid in my opinion. Level 1 charger should not be an issue at your level of driving most of the time, but level2 is nicer to have. Tires: I agree to some extent with “don’t peel out”. Our first set of tires for the PHEV died at 30k miles, partially b/c cheap manufacturer tires, partially learning to not accelerate so quick. Replacing our 2nd set now at 100k miles on the car. Battery: less of an issue than non-EV drivers lead you to believe. Bought our leaf used 5 years ago. Battery was 92%. 50k miles and 5 years later is 88%. PHEV dropped to something like 90% after 4 years. Last check was something like 88%. That’s after 6 years and 100k miles. Both are not as good battery tech as the teslas. Basically most EV batteries drop to around low 90s after a couple years and then degradation really levels off unless you are abusing the battery (I did undergrad work in chemicals for batteries so is nothing new compared to what was being said 20 years ago in that respect. Maybe a little better now).
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by PoorPlumber »

I am new here. Read some details in this thread, and I'm sure I missed some details.

One thing that I may have missed is discussion of the current Federal Tax Credits rules associated with EV's. (Obviously, state credits will vary.)

If I understand them correctly, $3,750.00 or $7,500.00 MAY be available. Not WILL be available.

The federal credits amount is based upon your income and federal taxable income. Again, if I am understanding correctly.
So, for example:
If you make X which requires you to pay $5,000.00 in federal taxes through the year, your credit can only be a maximum of $5,000.00. No, it will not be $7,500.00. And any remaining amount is not available next year.

The dealer will be registered to file paperwork and WILL immediately credit the credit of $7,500.00 to the price. (Provided it's qualified for the full credit. Some vehicles aren't.) However, due to the dealer required filing the extra amount will roll back to you to pay back and/or be taxable.

Also, as noted earlier, not all EV's are eligible for the full federal credit. Rules are in place for sourced mineral locations as well as location of manufacturing. The Chinese manufacturers will have to make it in the US and source materials from approved locations to be certified to receive partial or full credit.

As for EV vs. ICE? I don't know....depends on each individual situation I guess? I've looked at all available from time to time over the past 5 years. For me it's a no. Why?

I'm in a state with pretty much zero credit. No, seriously..like zero.

The power company will credit roughly $1,000.00 towards home charger/installation. I haven't checked that far honestly but am pretty sure there will be more costs.

I like mechanical things and work on some as well. So I'm checking and working almost daily on different things for years. The only proven stable system has been Tesla in my opinion. And while this is so, I really just don't like them! lol. I find the big screens in them (the first) and other vehicles (even ICE ones) that followed suit annoying and just plain tacky to be honest. I know, I'm old mannish. lol.

While many will espouse their love for them, there are many owners that have had battery issues prematurely (Again in my opinion. But they should have 80% capacity at 200,000 miles to me. I don't want a physics fight though. lol) and Tesla would not do anything except offer replacement for $12,000.00 to $15,000.00. Rich Rebuilds on YT addresses this.

On the other hand, 300,000 mile Honda or other ICE vehicle could throw a rod, and a replacement engine from a wreck can be sourced for I'm guessing $2,000.00 and the Honda will go another 150,000 miles. Many, many, people & mechanics can complete this task.

Which mechanic or garage is widely available for your Tesla when the battery is at 50%?
I know, I know, it'll be dumped on someone else to deal with...
This is happening all the time right now and to me is the quiet dirty secret of EV's.

Bringing up another point...How will a decently maintained Honda, Toyota, etc. perform at 200,000+ miles? I'll answer: Almost exactly like it did at 2,000 miles.

EV's commonly won't do that. And that's why people dump them to get something else.

Finally, what's your time worth? Mine is everything to me. I actually timed my vehicle fill up recently. From getting out, putting the credit card in, pumping the fuel into a 1/8 full tank, and hanging the pump dispenser back up...2 minutes.

2 minutes and I'm gone with around 350 miles range.

My vehicle? A 1999 Mercury Grand Marquis. Yep. But I'm a Poor Plumber! :(
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by anagram »

TheRoundHeadedKid wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 6:01 pm
Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?
Absolutely, Chinese EV's can beat it for value even with the 100% US tariffs.
I guess it depends how you define value.

https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/fatal ... -in-china/
For instance, a family member of the M7 Plus occupants killed in the crash asked why the automatic emergency braking (AEB) system did not work in this instance. In a since-deleted post, Huawei claimed that the car had been fitted with a system developed by Bosch and the SUV was traveling faster than it was designed to work. However, the German supplier denies that it provided the safety system in the M7 Plus.

Some have also alleged that the vehicle’s airbags failed to deploy correctly, a claim that the Aito brand refutes. Meanwhile, the family asserts that the doors did not unlock following the crash, impeding efforts to extricate occupants from the vehicle.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by cjcerny »

I would go with hybrid Camry.
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Re: Honda Civic - Can an EV beat it for value?

Post by Nohbdy »

RandomGuyOnInternet wrote: Sun May 12, 2024 2:41 pm All,

I need to purchase a vehicle this August. Below are the relevant details:

Colorado Resident
45 miles daily commute
Passengers - Mostly just me commuting to work, but will serve as back-up to family car. Must hold 5 people (2 adults, 3 kids) in a pinch.
Cargo - Compact car capacity is ok
Priorities (in order) - 1) Low true cost to own; 2) Reliability; 3) Safety; 4) Comfort; 5) Style

I'm leaning toward a Honda Civic Hatchback LX (~$26 MSRP), but the current federal ($7500) and state ($5000) rebates for EV purchases in Colorado make me think I must be missing a better deal out there. With the Chevy Bolt EUV currently on hiatus, I can't find it. What am I missing?

In addition, I've never leased a vehicle, but would consider it if the federal rebates helps drive the TCO below the Civic.

Appreciate your help. Thanks.

RandomGuy
1) If cost to own is by far your biggest priority then I believe a used EV would be hard to beat. Where I live one can buy a used EV with the range that you need for $10k. I recently replaced a corolla with a used leaf and my fully loaded running cost per mile dropped by half. No gas, no oil, and there are free chargers around (although increasingly the trendy teslas tie up all the chargers). Tires do cost more.
2) The EV has less moving parts but the battery does diminish over time. Ours is almost 10 years old and the battery is about 75% of what it was when it was new. Everybody has their favorite brands of course. I think there’s tons of variation in individual cars and the sorts of random events and conditions that we encounter. Climate could be worth considering - EV batteries wear out faster when very hot, but range can suffer when it’s very cold.

I’d suggest reading consumer reports regarding safety. The last 2 seem very subjective to me but I’m rolling around in a 10 year old nissan leaf so comfort and style are probably not very high on my list, either.
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