Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

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davebo
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Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by davebo »

So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
NightFall
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by NightFall »

I’ve had one for 12 years. There’s no extra maintenance that I can tell. In terms of replacing the battery, I certainly haven’t had to do it. I don’t know of anyone that owns a hybrid that has had to do it. I’ve seen some stories about batteries being replaced, but it’s usually on really high mileage cars. The only thing I’ll say is that tires don’t seem to last as long as they’re rated for… maybe the extra weight?
bikesandbeers
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by bikesandbeers »

For both Honda and Toyotas the batteries are generally good for 200k miles. A dealer may be $8k but there are lots of independent shops doing it for $3k or less.

No other hidden costs, Depending on the state you may be exempt from emissions testing with a hybrid.
runswithscissors
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by runswithscissors »

Hybrids have been around for decades and are so common now I wouldn't be one bit concerned about owning a hybrid. I believe Volvo's entire fleet is now hybrid (mild, regular or plug-in) or pure electric.
Generally hybrids run quieter, smoother, save on trips to the gas station and are just as reliable as internal combustion only cars. Just make sure you buy from a reputable vehicle manufacturer with a good track record with reliability.
tomcam
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by tomcam »

The Toyota model names ending in Prime go one better than you might expect. They are can be operated as electric cars for the first 40 miles. Here’s what that means.

* Dirt cheap to operate. Mile for mile electric can be 1/3 or so the price of gas
* Hybrids operate far more efficiently in the ‘burbs, which is of course the opposite of gas
* Toyota has been doing advanced hybrids for years. The tech is rock solid
maxInfo
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by maxInfo »

From my experience, hybrids can definitely save you some bucks on gas in the long run.
UM70
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by UM70 »

I got a new Toyota Venza in 2021 and don't track miles per gallon but did run the numbers once after about 3,000 miles and found I was spending $.05 per mile on gas. Almost all of my driving is on short suburban trips at off peak times and I think this leads to an overestimate of the benefit.

If you do a lot of start-up, stop and go driving around other drivers the computer relies on the gas option for power. Since there are a lot of other drivers around you don't have much of an option other than to "go with the flow." The battery comes into play much more often when you have very steady acceleration and cruising.

I would recommend a good test drive around your typical routes and a careful monitoring of your battery vs. gas usage before making a decision.
bob60014
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by bob60014 »

Toyotas warranty on the main battery is 10yrs/100k. Another cost savings is brake service. With regenerative braking brakes can last 100k+.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Hybrids will save money comparing MPG vs MPG. A co-worker bought a Camry hybrid and reports (engineers have real data) 56 mpg winter, 59 mpg summer. Here in the northeast, we get "winter" gas and all cars can be seen to do worse in the winter. He does combined driving with a good deal of highway at about 30k miles a year.

Hybrids rid you of range problems of EVs and ultra cold temp refusal to charge. Battery replacement when needed after the 10 year warranty is gone is far, far less than an EV. But yes, the system IS more complex than ICE alone or EV alone.

I would not believe 1/3 the gas cost before running actual math for the prime versions. Where I live, gas is cheap and electricity is expensive (went up 10 cents a kWh over the winter for 38 cents a kWh in my most recent bill). Do the math. I only really compare EV to my own Subaru and at the moment, they're nearly identical at 10 cents a mile.

Hybrids will bring more at resale time. And these days (who knows 10 years from now), hybrids are in great demand. EVs are trending towards dropping far more than ICE because they started at nosebleed prices and MSRPs have been dropping. It also seems that the early adopters have just about finished buying their EVs. Where a year ago, you'd have to pay $5k to $10k over MSRP for a Mustang Mach e, any dealer will have a dozen or 2 of them languishing on the lot even though Ford loses $60k per EV sold and has dropped the MSRP because dealers are screaming that they can't sell them.
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PoundCake
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by PoundCake »

davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
I've had all-electric (Bolt) and hybrid (Volt), and loved both. Possible cost savings really depends on how you drive. If most of your driving is local -- as your post indicates -- you will find that the battery covers most of your driving. That's how it works for me: I put gas in my car about once a month. And my mate almost never uses the gas in his hybrid.
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RickBoglehead
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by RickBoglehead »

As others have stated, battery replacements in hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs aren't a thing. I suspect if the actual % was calculated, it would be less than engine replacements in gas vehicles.

Ask any car shop, how many batteries have you replaced, outside of warranty? They'll scratch their heads.

This is one of those fables that is spread by entities focused on continuing gas car sales.
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cmr79
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by cmr79 »

If 80% of your driving is suburban with more stop and go (rather than continuously going on the highway), a traditional hybrid vs the same ICE version of that vehicle should see significantly better mileage and better brake life, as noted above. The rated mileage backs that up...highway mileage only goes from 34 to 35 mpg, but city mileage increases from 28 to a whopping 40.
There is no plug in hybrid version of the Honda CR-V, so unless you are willing to cross shop (and wait for) a Toyota RAV-4 Prime, that discussion doesn't really benefit you much.
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runner26
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by runner26 »

We have a low mileage 2006 prius. The hybrid battery died last year after 40,000 miles, and 17 years. It was 3k to replace with a new OEM at a non-dealer shop. The auxiliary battery also died for the second time, and it is more expensive than an ICE car battery.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by sureshoe »

davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
The cost increase for hybrids has narrowed dramatically, and the "battery going bad" is a lot of hype. People hated on hybrids early just like they're hating on EVs now. I was able to pickup a used Lexus RX hybrid back in the day for less than its ICE counterpart because people were so skeptical, so not a hybrid hater here - but truthfully, even now the value isn't always there.

So whether it's worth it is just math.

Assume about $2500 more to buy a hybrid vs. comparable ICE model. Assume $3.50 gas (or whatever your fancy).
11k miles a year. Assume 30mpg in CRV ICE and 40mpg in hybrid. Depends on where you're doing the miles, but that's probably ballpark for your combo.
You're using 366 gallons a year in ICE, or $1283
You're using 275 gallons a year in hybrid, or 962
You save $320 a year in gas. About an 7-8 year payback.

There are other benefits to driving a hybrid - they often have more pickup, which is nice. This also assume gas doesn't go to $5+ a gallon, which changes the math. I wouldn't factor in the battery or maintenance differences.

Given all that, I would be meh on buying a factory new hybrid in your situation.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Valuethinker »

davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
How much is the premium for a hybrid? What price of gasoline do they assume?

I would always get the hybrid. I believe they will hold their resale value more than pure ICE car. Regenerative braking lowers wear and tear there. Higher fuel economy is, in effect, option money - protection against higher gasoline prices.**

The battery replacement does not seem to be a big issue - see other posters. Likely the car will wear out for other reasons, first.

Traffic never gets any better, so you may find you do more stop-and-go driving in the future than now.

** My cognitive bias - I think 80%+ of cars sold worldwide in 2035 will be EVs - but I entirely acknowledge there are a number of implicit assumptions in that, which we don't need to discuss here (will turn, as this thread has already shown some signs of doing, into another "EV v non-EV" argument).
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Tom_T »

EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by livesoft »

PoundCake wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:00 am... I put gas in my car about once a month. And my mate almost never uses the gas in his hybrid.
I have a Subaru Outback and put gas in my car about once a month, too. Actually, 10 times in 2023. :). So as noted things depend on how much one uses their car.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Iorek »

Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
[Unnecessary comment removed by moderator ClaycordJCA] yes, if a hybrid battery is not performing as well either because of age or cold the gas engine will make up for it.
michaeljc70
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by michaeljc70 »

I only drive ~4k miles a year so I don't know that I would break even on cost vs. gas savings with a hybrid. However, I keep cars a long time so there is always a risk that gas prices can go up a lot over a 10+ year period. I do mostly city driving and get around 25% less than the rated city MPG on my car.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Tom_T »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:44 am I only drive ~4k miles a year so I don't know that I would break even on cost vs. gas savings with a hybrid. However, I keep cars a long time so there is always a risk that gas prices can go up a lot over a 10+ year period. I do mostly city driving and get around 25% less than the rated city MPG on my car.
That's what I was thinking: a hybrid is sort of an inflation-protected car, at least as far as gasoline is concerned. (I know I'm stretching the analogy.)

Sure, electricity can get more expensive, but in my lifetime, the price of electricity hasn't been anywhere near as volatile as gasoline.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by THY4373 »

Ex has a 2010 Ford Fusion Hybrid with a 170k+ miles on it. Still the original battery (I think the battery concern is overblown, especially in hybrids). Car has been supremely reliable (I have read though it was some years back that hybrids are more reliable than their ICE counterparts). One savings with the hybrid is brakes thanks to regenerative breaking. My ex's Fusion still has the original front brakes at 170k which blows my mind. The rear pads, rotors and one caliper in rear were replaced around 155k. Literally the only other repair outside of regular maintenance is some braking module that was replaced around 165k. It still gets 38-42 MPG. I would not hesitate to buy another hybrid.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by THY4373 »

Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
If the battery gets low the car runs on the ICE engine so your mileage will be less but it is not like ICE cars don't get worse mileage when it is cold out. Since you have an ICE engine in a hybrid, the battery range is not really much of a concern. My ex's Fusion hybrid gets a few MPG less in the winter but how much of that is the battery and how much of that is due to ICE engines also being less efficient in the cold I don't know. Also unlike a full electric car hybrids are able to use waste heat from ICE engine for heating the interior so you don't have the impact of an electric heater consuming battery power.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by warner25 »

sureshoe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:27 am...not a hybrid hater here - but truthfully, even now the value isn't always there... I would be meh on buying a factory new hybrid in your situation.
I'm with you. I was a relatively early adopter of a 2008 Prius that I'm still driving, and still love, but...

(1) I've never been fully convinced of the value of other hybrids, especially non-Toyota hybrids, where there's an identical ICE option for a few thousand dollars less. The Prius was special for a number of reasons. It was designed to be a hybrid from a blank slate to prove the technology. There has never been an ICE Prius for comparison, so the most comparable car in early 2008 was arguably the ICE Camry which only cost about $500 less than a Prius. So the Prius started saving money in the first year.

(2) I'm thinking that 11k miles per year is on the low end of what makes sense. In the very long term, the operating cost of any reasonably priced car will dominate the purchase price, so the car with the best fuel economy will win, but it could take a very long time for that to happen. I anticipated driving my Prius a lot more than I've actually driven since 2008. About ten years ago my wife and I made some lifestyle changes that reduced our driving in the Prius from 20k miles per year to 5k per year. So if I had to replace my Prius now, it would be hard for me to justify getting another hybrid or reasonably priced EV like a Leaf.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by yatesd »

I would be mostly curios about the "luxury" of less fill ups. Unfortunately, some hybrids use smaller gas tanks so the "fill up" interval is close to the same.

After looking at this specific model, it looks like the gas tank and cargo capacity is the same size. Car and Driver claim the actual highway mileage is identical. I would lean towards a hybrid if at least 50% of my driving was stop & go.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by H-Town »

yatesd wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 am I would be mostly curios about the "luxury" of less fill ups. Unfortunately, some hybrids use smaller gas tanks so the "fill up" interval is close to the same.

After looking at this specific model, it looks like the gas tank and cargo capacity is the same size. Car and Driver claim the actual highway mileage is identical. I would lean towards a hybrid if at least 50% of my driving was stop & go.
We rented a Prius on our last trip to East Coast. It has ~500 miles range. My ICE car range is ~250 miles, so definitely the fill up interval would be less than half.
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Post by warner25 »

H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:12 am
yatesd wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 am I would be mostly curios about the "luxury" of less fill ups. Unfortunately, some hybrids use smaller gas tanks so the "fill up" interval is close to the same.
We rented a Prius on our last trip to East Coast. It has ~500 miles range. My ICE car range is ~250 miles, so definitely the fill up interval would be less than half.
I wouldn't heavily weight the luxury of less frequent fill ups. Even 200 miles is three hours of highway driving. That's about as far as I'd want to go without stopping to pee, eat something, move my body, and take a break from the concentration of driving anyway. As long as gas stations are ubiquitous, it's trivial to combine those stops with a couple minutes at a gas pump. (Of course range is a much bigger deal for EVs while charging stations are still less common and charging takes more than a couple minutes).
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by michaeljc70 »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 10:43 am
sureshoe wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:27 am...not a hybrid hater here - but truthfully, even now the value isn't always there... I would be meh on buying a factory new hybrid in your situation.
I'm with you. I was a relatively early adopter of a 2008 Prius that I'm still driving, and still love, but...

(1) I've never been fully convinced of the value of other hybrids, especially non-Toyota hybrids, where there's an identical ICE option for a few thousand dollars less. The Prius was special for a number of reasons. It was designed to be a hybrid from a blank slate to prove the technology. There has never been an ICE Prius for comparison, so the most comparable car in early 2008 was arguably the ICE Camry which only cost about $500 less than a Prius. So the Prius started saving money in the first year.

(2) I'm thinking that 11k miles per year is on the low end of what makes sense. In the very long term, the operating cost of any reasonably priced car will dominate the purchase price, so the car with the best fuel economy will win, but it could take a very long time for that to happen. I anticipated driving my Prius a lot more than I've actually driven since 2008. About ten years ago my wife and I made some lifestyle changes that reduced our driving in the Prius from 20k miles per year to 5k per year. So if I had to replace my Prius now, it would be hard for me to justify getting another hybrid or reasonably priced EV like a Leaf.
Those cars are not in the same size class. The Prius is sized more like a Corolla. In fact the 2008 Prius was smaller than the 2008 Corolla.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by retire57 »

You've received some helpful responses regarding fuel efficiency. I have a hybrid Toyota Highlander and one benefit no one talks about is climate control.

If you are stuck in a large traffic jam-up, e.g. an accident slowdown, you will remain cool (or warm) without burning gas. Just set the thermostat.

In the brutal heat and humidity of the south, the car can stay cool while you are in the grocery store. Without burning gas.

Sounds like a small thing, but the climate control comes in handy often. I will never NOT own a hybrid for that reason alone.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by yatesd »

H-Town wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:12 am
yatesd wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:07 am I would be mostly curios about the "luxury" of less fill ups. Unfortunately, some hybrids use smaller gas tanks so the "fill up" interval is close to the same.

After looking at this specific model, it looks like the gas tank and cargo capacity is the same size. Car and Driver claim the actual highway mileage is identical. I would lean towards a hybrid if at least 50% of my driving was stop & go.
We rented a Prius on our last trip to East Coast. It has ~500 miles range. My ICE car range is ~250 miles, so definitely the fill up interval would be less than half.
I believe my non-hybrid VW Passat has a range of about 600 miles. The combination of a 4 cylinder and 18 mile gas tank helps accomplish this feat. Since this is my "commuter car" I only need to fill up the tank about every 2-weeks. Our V6 SUV with the same size gas tank needs to stop at the gas station more often.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by 02nz »

Tom_T wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 am EVs were recently in the news because they were having issues in frigid weather. Do weather conditions apply at all to a hybrid, or does the gas engine simply take over if the battery is low?
Ugh, this again. EVs were not "having issues in frigid weather." There were people who were not prepared for the battery needing to warm up before being able to accept the fastest charge.

This was an issue only if you left your vehicle out in the cold, AND needed to go a long distance using DC fast charging, AND didn't have enough charge to drive the half hour or so it would take the battery to warm up.

All complete non-issues for hybrids, which don't do DC fast charging.

Also, in Norway, with far harsher winters than much of the U.S., over 90% of new vehicles sold now are EVs.
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Post by warner25 »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:38 am Those cars are not in the same size class. The Prius is sized more like a Corolla. In fact the 2008 Prius was smaller than the 2008 Corolla.
Based on what? The EPA classified both the Camry and the Prius as midsize cars while categorizing the Corolla as a compact. In terms of passenger volume, the Prius is closer to the Camry, and it has more luggage volume.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 24401#tab4

Corolla: 89 cubic feet of passenger volume, 14 cubic feet of luggage volume
Prius: 96 cubic feet of passenger volume, 16 cubic feet of luggage volume
Camry: 101 cubic feet of passenger volume, 15 cubic feet of luggage volume
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by michaeljc70 »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:38 am Those cars are not in the same size class. The Prius is sized more like a Corolla. In fact the 2008 Prius was smaller than the 2008 Corolla.
Based on what? The EPA classified both the Camry and the Prius as midsize cars while categorizing the Corolla as a compact. In terms of passenger volume, the Prius is closer to the Camry, and it has more luggage volume.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 24401#tab4

Corolla: 89 cubic feet of passenger volume, 14 cubic feet of luggage volume
Prius: 96 cubic feet of passenger volume, 16 cubic feet of luggage volume
Camry: 101 cubic feet of passenger volume, 15 cubic feet of luggage volume
The Camry was 4 inches wider and 14 inches longer than the Prius.

The volume numbers seem to vary by where you look.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by warner25 »

retire57 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:25 pm If you are stuck in a large traffic jam-up, e.g. an accident slowdown, you will remain cool (or warm) without burning gas. Just set the thermostat... the car can stay cool while you are in the grocery store. Without burning gas.
I'm confused by this. It's not like free energy. The battery can certainly power the climate control while the engine isn't running, but the battery charge in most hybrids ultimately comes only from burning gas.

Does yours also have solar panels on the roof? I think I remember that being a feature at one time, for the purpose of keeping the car cool when parked in the sun.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by cmr79 »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:08 pm
retire57 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:25 pm If you are stuck in a large traffic jam-up, e.g. an accident slowdown, you will remain cool (or warm) without burning gas. Just set the thermostat... the car can stay cool while you are in the grocery store. Without burning gas.
I'm confused by this. It's not like free energy. The battery can certainly power the climate control while the engine isn't running, but the battery charge in most hybrids ultimately comes only from burning gas.

Does yours also have solar panels on the roof? I think I remember that being a feature at one time, for the purpose of keeping the car cool when parked in the sun.
This is actually a big argument for hybrid tractor trailers, as at many ports (especially California) they have to sit for a long time but aren't allowed to idle. Many (most?) hybrid power trains, including Toyota's synergy drive, will run the climate control off of the HV battery until it drops to a certain charge and then will have to kick the gas motor back on to maintain the charge (or the climate control will turn off). Because there is a lot more energy in the HV battery than in a 12V battery, a hybrid works a lot better for this vs an engine stop-start system, which may only be able do run climate control for a very short time or in limited fashion even at a stoplight. For a long traffic jam due to something like an accident blocking all lanes, you would need a PHEV or EV-size battery to run climate control for 30+ minutes without running a gas engine; traditional hybrid batteries just aren't big enough. A solar roof wouldn't really help much with this...the Fisker Ocean, for example, has (I think) a roughly 400W solar roof on certain models, but most AC systems can pull 7-8X that (around 3 kW). There just isn't enough surface area on passenger vehicles for solar panels at ~20% efficiency to provide meaningful energy.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by Chv396 »

We had a Toyota Prius years ago. Very reliable vehicle. Gas mileage was 50-55 mpg, on average.
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by warner25 »

cmr79 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:21 pm...Toyota's synergy drive, will run the climate control off of the HV battery until it drops to a certain charge and then will have to kick the gas motor back on to maintain the charge... you would need a PHEV or EV-size battery to run climate control for 30+ minutes without running a gas engine; traditional hybrid batteries just aren't big enough...
Right, if my Prius is parked with the climate control running, I don't think it lasts even five minutes before the engine kicks back on for a couple minutes to protect the battery. Then, when I start driving again, the engine will run more than usual to get the battery back up to the ideal charge level.
retire57
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by retire57 »

warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:08 pm
retire57 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:25 pm If you are stuck in a large traffic jam-up, e.g. an accident slowdown, you will remain cool (or warm) without burning gas. Just set the thermostat... the car can stay cool while you are in the grocery store. Without burning gas.
I'm confused by this. It's not like free energy. The battery can certainly power the climate control while the engine isn't running, but the battery charge in most hybrids ultimately comes only from burning gas.

Does yours also have solar panels on the roof? I think I remember that being a feature at one time, for the purpose of keeping the car cool when parked in the sun.
The engine kicks in to top off the battery for about 2 minutes every 1/2 hour or so.
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warner25
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by warner25 »

retire57 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:31 pm The engine kicks in to top off the battery for about 2 minutes every 1/2 hour or so.
Oh wow, that's a big improvement over the system in the old Gen II Prius. I'm still not sure that this qualifies as not using gas, but it's certainly less gas than if the engine were idling the whole time only to power the climate control.
gtrplayer
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by gtrplayer »

I have a Prius so can’t speak to that specific car, but a Prius can last 250 thousand+ miles. At 11k miles a year, you could have that car for a long time.
runswithscissors
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by runswithscissors »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:03 am As others have stated, battery replacements in hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs aren't a thing. I suspect if the actual % was calculated, it would be less than engine replacements in gas vehicles.

Ask any car shop, how many batteries have you replaced, outside of warranty? They'll scratch their heads.

This is one of those fables that is spread by entities focused on continuing gas car sales.
This and the fact people don't actually pay anywhere near the estimated replacement costs you see thrown around the internet. There are Prius owners with 200k+ miles that do indeed replace their batteries, but they typically pay $1,500-$2,500. There are many refurbised battery options now. Batteries definitely aren't cheap to replace but there are many things that can fail in a internal combustion car that will require a heftier replacement or repair expense.
z0r
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by z0r »

michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:06 pm
warner25 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:57 pm
michaeljc70 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:38 am Those cars are not in the same size class. The Prius is sized more like a Corolla. In fact the 2008 Prius was smaller than the 2008 Corolla.
Based on what? The EPA classified both the Camry and the Prius as midsize cars while categorizing the Corolla as a compact. In terms of passenger volume, the Prius is closer to the Camry, and it has more luggage volume.

https://fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?act ... 24401#tab4

Corolla: 89 cubic feet of passenger volume, 14 cubic feet of luggage volume
Prius: 96 cubic feet of passenger volume, 16 cubic feet of luggage volume
Camry: 101 cubic feet of passenger volume, 15 cubic feet of luggage volume
The Camry was 4 inches wider and 14 inches longer than the Prius.

The volume numbers seem to vary by where you look.
the prius is extremely "cab forward" similar to an ev, it gets more interior volume than its overall length would suggest

since I've spent a lot of time in both cars, compared to the Camry the Prius has a more upright seating position and a MUCH more spacious back seat, in terms of front-to-back room and, crucially, height of the rear seat bottom (Camry butt height is low up the ground and painful for me). Camry's rear seat headroom is also bad, sitting up straight my head is an inch past touching the rear glass, a problem the Prius doesn't have. the Camry's rear seat is wider overall than the Prius but that only matters with three adults in the rear, not something I do often, so Camry would win by a little with five adults but Prius wins big with four adults

basically the Prius has a newer design style with more upright seating and more cab forward, this started being seen in small hatches around 2000-2005. the Camry was from the previous era of cabin design
FIRWYW
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by FIRWYW »

Only advise I have is to look out for state specific gotchas. About 2 years after we bought our first hybrid and first all electric, the state added an additional $225 tax on both to “recoup” the lost gas tax. Figured I’d have to drive a ton more than I do to pay the same in taxes and takes away some of the savings so break even is much longer.
mattsm
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by mattsm »

livesoft wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:36 am
PoundCake wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:00 am... I put gas in my car about once a month. And my mate almost never uses the gas in his hybrid.
I have a Subaru Outback and put gas in my car about once a month, too. Actually, 10 times in 2023. :). So as noted things depend on how much one uses their car.
Hey I'll try- I've got a Pacifica PHEV and we've gotten gas a dozen times after 30k miles / 3 years. All depends on distance and trips and when you can recharge. I worry sometimes if we are using the gas engine enough.

-M
madbrain
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by madbrain »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:03 am As others have stated, battery replacements in hybrids, PHEVs, and EVs aren't a thing.
Yes, it's a thing. My first car, a 2001 Toyota Prius (gen 1) had a battery replacement at 8 years, 3 months and 94,000 miles - just past the 8 years/100,000 miles warranty. The car could not be driven without the hybrid battery - it had to be towed. The dealer cost to replace it was about $3500. We pled with Toyota to cover it, since it was so close to the end of the warranty, and they agreed to cover half the cost. We kept the car for 2 more years - and replaced it with a 2011 Prius.

More recently, our 2017 Chevrolet Bolt had a battery replacement in January of 2020 due to the recall. The original battery had also suffered from dramatically reduced capacity problems over time, so we were glad to get the replacement. The new battery has not shown any problems.
MathWizard
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by MathWizard »

davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
With Toyotas, at least, you won't need a brake job. The synergy drive causes almost all braking to be regenerative.

I haven't had any problems with my 2017 Avalon Hybrid so far, but I'm only at 49K miles.
YeahBuddy
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by YeahBuddy »

MathWizard wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:18 am
davebo wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 8:38 pm So I'm pretty close to trading in my 2011 Odyssey and getting a 2024 CRV. I am between the CRV and the CRV hybrid. I've run the calculators and looks like I'll break even in 5 years with current gas prices. Are there any other hidden costs to owning a hybrid that I'm not aware of? I know the battery needs to be replaced at some point, the dealer told me that it's about $3K to replace, but I'm seeing estimates up to $8K.

I don't know, do Hybrids make sense from strictly a cost savings perspective? I drive around 11K miles per year, 80% suburban driving and 20% highway.
With Toyotas, at least, you won't need a brake job. The synergy drive causes almost all braking to be regenerative.

I haven't had any problems with my 2017 Avalon Hybrid so far, but I'm only at 49K miles.

This is false. The regenerative braking in hybrids is mild compared to that of say, a Tesla, that's so aggressive it brings you to a complete stop.

I needed brakes around 50k in my Prius. I've heard of many owners going 100k or more before needing new brakes, but it depends on driving conditions and user. Here we have tons of heavy, fast moving traffic that makes it more difficult to not use your brakes. It doesn't matter if you drive in the slow, middle, or fast lane, someone is always trying to cut you off.
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mw1739
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by mw1739 »

I bought a Toyota hybrid last week and calculated the breakeven in cost somewhere in the 4-5 year range also at current gas prices. Seemed reasonable enough to go for it vs. a strictly gas powered vehicle.
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just frank
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by just frank »

I think the OP can due a simple payback calculation based upon EPA mileage for hybrid versus conventional of the same/similar model.

That payback calculation will be sufficiently accurate IMO.

The OP is also an excellent candidate for a plug in hybrid, or PHEV, if electricity costs are reasonable where they live. That is, outside of New England and California.

OP can compute the cost per mile on kWh versus on gasoline. Rather than the 15-20% savings in gas between an ICE and an HEV, they might realize a 40-50% or greater savings.

For example: My 2015 Volt goes about 30 miles on 10 kWh of electricity, which is $0.18/kWh in my area (the national average price). That is $1.80/30 = $0.06/mile. Compared to a similarly sized car (a 2015 Corolla) getting 30 mpg, and gas costing $3.40/gal, that is $0.11/mile.

5 cents per mile savings is $500/year if you drive 10k miles electric (and 1k miles on gas on longer trips). Also, the PHEV running on gas gets a mileage closer to an HEV than a conventional car. My 2015 Volt gets 40+mpg at 70 mph on the highway.

There are many SUV models available: https://www.caranddriver.com/rankings/b ... -in-hybrid
Last edited by just frank on Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
michaeljc70
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Re: Hybrid Car - Cost Savings?

Post by michaeljc70 »

just frank wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 7:02 am I think the OP can due a simple payback calculation based upon EPA mileage for hybrid versus conventional of the same/similar model.

That payback calculation will be sufficiently accurate IMO.

The OP is also an excellent candidate for a plug in hybrid, or PHEV, if electricity costs are reasonable where they live. That is, outside of New England and California.

OP can compute the cost per mile on kWh versus on gasoline. Rather than the 15-20% savings in gas between an ICE and an HEV, they might realize a 40-50% or greater savings.

For example: My 2015 Volt goes about 30 miles on 10 kWh of electricity, which is $0.18/kWh in my area (the national average price). That is $1.80/30 = $0.06/mile. Compared to a similarly sized car (a 2015 Corolla) getting 30 mpg, and gas costing $3.40/gal, that is $0.11/mile.

5 cents per mile savings is $500/year if you drive 10k miles electric (and 1k miles on gas on longer trips).
I would consider city vs. highway miles rather than total miles driven per year. The hybrids perform much better (in terms of MPG advantage) in the city and that can tip the calculation one way or the other. I don't drive a lot but 80% of my miles are city.
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