Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

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ThankYouJack
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Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by ThankYouJack »

My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.

But I'm in this analysis paralysis with getting something new(er):

1) Financially I'm getting close to FI but don't plan to retire anytime soon, so I could spend a lot on a new car without it having much of an impact.
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)
3) Many used cars (especially Toyotas) don't seem worth the high price. I think I'd rather buy new than just save a little on used. And shopping for and buying a used car can be time consuming.

So a couple questions:

1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
2) Would you go brand new, a few years old or even older?
3) What would you look for (year model mileage)? Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
H-Town
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by H-Town »

No. I would not get a new car.
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mrspock
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by mrspock »

I dropped $100k in new cars in the last couple years, after driving a car for 10+ years and over 250k miles, like you -- once I hit FI. My rationale? Safety technologies have dramatically improved, and I was at risk of being penny wise and a pound foolish should I wind up in an accident.

I bought a couple hulking SUVs where I'm more likely to win a contest of physics, should it come to that. Potholes are also anything of the past for me.... don't notice them anymore.

My advice? Spend the money.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.

But I'm in this analysis paralysis with getting something new(er):

1) Financially I'm getting close to FI but don't plan to retire anytime soon, so I could spend a lot on a new car without it having much of an impact.
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)
3) Many used cars (especially Toyotas) don't seem worth the high price. I think I'd rather buy new than just save a little on used. And shopping for and buying a used car can be time consuming.

So a couple questions:

1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
2) Would you go brand new, a few years old or even older?
3) What would you look for (year model mileage)? Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
So, no. If you can afford it, your decision (whatever it is) isn’t foolish IMO. None of us are you so once the numbers pass the reasonableness test, our opinion is irrelevant.
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mhc
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by mhc »

I replace cars when they become too much trouble. I always buy new. If you will keep the car for 10+ years, then who cares if you beat it up. It is how you use cars. It sounds like you can afford it. It doesn't matter if the price is above or below MSRP. You pay the market price. I just bought a Honda for below MSRP with no junk fees added.

I drove a 2004 Honda until 2019. My new Honda was so much nicer and enjoyable. I didn't realize how bad the old car was. I only drive about 2000 miles a year plus any road trips. I think it is so worth it to have a new car.
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gotoparks
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by gotoparks »

You can find good deals if you look hard enough. I once purchased a used truck that had a waiting line to purchase it and I was first. The sales reps were calling their clients when I was in the showroom purchasing. If it is a car like a Honda or Toyota, I would purchase new but if an expensive SUV type I would look really hard for used one that has depreciated.
pascal
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by pascal »

What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
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9Iron
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by 9Iron »

Yes, buy new and get the vehicle that you want.

Number 1 priority is safety, not only new equipment, but reliability! You don’t want to breakdown on a highway, especially with family when on a long trip.

Even if you squeeze another year or two out of the old vehicle, by the time you deal with the maintenance ( both time and money) you will be left with a vehicle worth less than today, and you most likely be paying more for the newer vehicle.

Just do it now and enjoy.
JoeNJ28
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by JoeNJ28 »

I think modern safety is great not just the camera etc but better crumple zones side impact side fender etc. Everyone also talks about upping uninsured coverage in case of accident and you get paralyzed etc. Just avoid getting paralyzed to begin with you only have one body.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by mesaverde »

OP- What's your net worth? Unless this $50,000 car is a small fraction of it, there's no way I'd buy it if your current car meets your needs and only needs routine maintenance. Unless you have a high net worth, putting large sums of money into a liability that steadily depreciates in value greatly reduces your ability to build wealth/independence. Not to mention what the additional insurance premiums, property tax, etc. will cost.
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Watty
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Watty »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm 2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)
Spending $30K(or whatever) for a five year old used car would also feel like a lot of money.

Either way even if you fix up your current car and drive it a few more years you most likely are just deferring buying a replacement car for a few years, not actually avoiding the purchase.

You did not say your age but I would suspect that if you buy a new car and keep driving it 5k miles a year it will likely last you the rest of your life or at least until you need to give up driving. If you are unlikely to need to get a replacement for a car you buy today then it likely make sense to replace it sooner than later so that you can get several more years use out of it.
ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm 1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
My situation was different but I bought a new Forester about three years ago and you can get one of those for the ballpark of $30K depending on the trim level and options. I would suspect something like that would do 95% of what you want to do so spending an extra $20K to get a huge SUV might not be worth it for as little as you drive. Getting something like a Forester(or CRV, Rav4, etc) will also be easier to drive and park as you get older.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I have a couple questions:

What car do you presently have with 200k miles that's 15 years old. That makes a huge difference. For example, if it's a Hyundai anything, send it to be crushed. If it's a Honda anything, you have 10 more years in it, easy.
What needs to be fixed that you think needs fixing? I mean...hail damage is a big "who cares?" to me but some people are all anxious their friends will see them with a damaged car. If it needs a valve job and a new transmission, then that's big.

I have driven and worked on cars for a very long time. The #1 safety feature in cars is seat belts. They've all had them since 1967. I do respect the engineered crumple zones and how the engine goes someplace other than your lap in a bad front end crash. Everything else is something to stop working, so I give them zero value and heck....if they weren't mandated, I'd delete them when ordering a car.

You also need to catch up on car sales these days. Mark ups over MSRP are gone. I've seen new cars with $14k UNDER MSRP. Both used and new car dealers are loaded to the gills with cars they can't sell. Some brands over the last 5 years have raised MSRP prices 50%. That includes Stellantis (Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat, Jeep, Ram, Alfa), Hyundai and Kia. The lowest increases are Subaru and Mazda. So today, buying a Subaru Legacy or Mazda 6 will give you a similar car to a Camry for way less. (Toyota's in the middle on price increases). Used cars have started coming down and they're going to plummet. So many dealers have held on to used cars they now paid too much for and some are going out of business with the finance company (floor plan) sending the cars to auction for other used car dealers to pick them up cheap. There are even new car dealers sending brand new cars through auction because they're paying literally millions in floor plan finance charges. The Youtube channel, Car Edge had a segment showing a dealer with floor plan costs for the year of $2.7M. They really need to get rid of cars whether new or used. Do not be afraid to low ball dealers now.
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tennisplyr
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tennisplyr »

Very personal decision, only you know what you should do.
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Watty
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Watty »

One more thought. If your current car does not have ESC(electronic stability control) which was not required until 2012 then that would make the argument for replacing it even stronger since that is a very important safety feature to have.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by bottlecap »

Not foolish. If it runs and you like it, keep it. But the choice is yours.

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Kenkat
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Kenkat »

At that age and mileage, I’d be thinking about a new car. You don’t have to do it immediately, but start looking at models, maybe go to a car show, etc.

If you are looking at Toyota specifically, there are some dealers who will not mark anything up over MSRP. You might need to travel a bit to get the car you want; my son wanted a specific, harder to get Toyota model and we ended up driving 100 miles or so to West Virginia to buy the one he wanted.
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warner25
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by warner25 »

I think about the same basic question sometimes. I'm proud to still be driving my lowest-trim 2008 Prius. I'm perfectly satisfied with the condition that it's in, and it's so economical that I can't stomach the idea of replacing it with a new car.

With that said, we also have a middle-trim 2018 Odyssey and I'm impressed with the advancements in safety features over that ten year period. The Odyssey has ESC, a backup camera, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, lane keep assist, blind spot warning, rear cross-traffic warning, and probably other things that I forget or don't even know about. I assume that there are even better things available now in 2024. So, yeah, sometimes I wonder if I'm being foolish by proudly continuing to drive the older Prius.

On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by JoeNJ28 »

warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm I think about the same basic question sometimes. I'm proud to still be driving my lowest-trim 2008 Prius. I'm perfectly satisfied with the condition that it's in, and it's so economical that I can't stomach the idea of replacing it with a new car.

With that said, we also have a middle-trim 2018 Odyssey and I'm impressed with the advancements in safety features over that ten year period. The Odyssey has ESC, a backup camera, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, lane keep assist, blind spot warning, rear cross-traffic warning, and probably other things that I forget or don't even know about. I assume that there are even better things available now in 2024. So, yeah, sometimes I wonder if I'm being foolish by proudly continuing to drive the older Prius.

On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
Think it means people are driving more aggressive so a safer car should help. Ever since Covid the amount of people passing on shoulders doing well over the speed limit and cutting across lanes has skyrocketed compared to prior.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by ccieemeritus »

I like driving old cars into the ground. We bought a 2001 Toyota Sienna for a new baby and he ended up learning to drive in it 17 years later ;-)

I've now replaced the Sienna and am very happy I did so. I'm older and it's harder to turn around and look diligently behind me. My newer Subaru has a backup camera and beeps when I'm backing up into cross-traffic. It also has some parking proximity sensors (but not as good as my wife's Lexus). It alerts me if I'm moving too fast toward an obstacle. This feature may have prevented a collision.

By contrast, I get nervous every time I'm backing up in my daughter's 2010 Camry. No backup camera. No cross traffic sensors.

My in-laws are very happy with the safety features in their newer Prius (they previously drove the 2010 Camry).

You've done your duty and gotten your money's worth out of the old car. No guilt in buying something with new safety features.

Your maintenance costs will go down with the new car, but your insurance will go up. DMV registration fees will go up in some states (CA for example).
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by bendix »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:51 pm ...
I think owning an old car can make sense, if you do the repairs (to the extend possible) yourself. If you have an old car, issues galore, and you have to pay dealership prices for repairs... By all means, move on and buy a new car. Dont look back.

If your car just needs variations of maintenance, e.g. a few brake pads and rotors, an air filter, maybe some spark plugs, bleeding the brakes and all that and you can do that yourself... then driving an old car is I think a great way to not spend too much on getting from A to B.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by MH2 »

Anything that old will be less reliable than a new(er) car.

Toyota and Honda are not magic.

However, it’s very hard imo to justify a major upgrade if you’re only planning to drive 5k miles a year.

Back to the basics:
1. What is your household income
2. What is the approximate value of all other vehicles/things with motors that you own
3. What is the make and model of the car you’re looking to replace
4. How many miles are currently on it
5. Do you have any specific needs (e.g., third row seating)
Last edited by MH2 on Sat Feb 10, 2024 7:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by MH2 »

warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
SUVs and bad infrastructure.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by hudson »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.

But I'm in this analysis paralysis with getting something new(er):

1) Financially I'm getting close to FI but don't plan to retire anytime soon, so I could spend a lot on a new car without it having much of an impact.
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)
3) Many used cars (especially Toyotas) don't seem worth the high price. I think I'd rather buy new than just save a little on used. And shopping for and buying a used car can be time consuming.

So a couple questions:

1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
2) Would you go brand new, a few years old or even older?
3) What would you look for (year model mileage)? Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
Keep driving old car? Maybe? Your choice. I like having an old fishing vehicle in the driveway. I'm more comfortable around town in a clunker.

Get something newer? If you want and if the deal is right. When I'm in that situation, I get exact out the door prices and sleep on it before making a final decision. Sometime reality keeps me from over spending.

What to look for? New, because I keep cars a long time and I want to start with a clean slate. Of course I don't want to hurt myself financially. the money has to be right. I'd buy a 4Runner or a Crewmax Tundra, but you should buy what works for you.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by TomatoTomahto »

MH2 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:54 pm
warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
SUVs and bad infrastructure.
And distracted driving.

I say buy a new car.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

JoeNJ28 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:00 pm
warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm I think about the same basic question sometimes. I'm proud to still be driving my lowest-trim 2008 Prius. I'm perfectly satisfied with the condition that it's in, and it's so economical that I can't stomach the idea of replacing it with a new car.

With that said, we also have a middle-trim 2018 Odyssey and I'm impressed with the advancements in safety features over that ten year period. The Odyssey has ESC, a backup camera, automatic emergency braking, lane departure warning, lane keep assist, blind spot warning, rear cross-traffic warning, and probably other things that I forget or don't even know about. I assume that there are even better things available now in 2024. So, yeah, sometimes I wonder if I'm being foolish by proudly continuing to drive the older Prius.

On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
Think it means people are driving more aggressive so a safer car should help. Ever since Covid the amount of people passing on shoulders doing well over the speed limit and cutting across lanes has skyrocketed compared to prior.
A lot of people resumed driving in 2021 after largely sitting it out so it may be an outlier (I went from 10K miles to under 2K). We won’t know for a while.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:16 am
MH2 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:54 pm
warner25 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 5:26 pm On the other hand, I notice that the number of car crash fatalities (and, I assume, injuries) in the US has not diminished in recent years. The rate of fatalities, by miles traveled and population, was actually higher in 2021 than it was in 2008 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_veh ... S._by_year). I'm not sure what to make of that, but maybe it means that we're not actually missing out on much with our 15 year-old cars.
SUVs and bad infrastructure.
And distracted driving.

I say buy a new car.
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Cosmo
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Cosmo »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and
Your pricing is at least ten years old. You are going to have a difficult time finding a brand new SUV with 3rd row seating and leather trim for 50K. All the more reason not to get a brand new vehicle.

Cosmo
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

Cosmo wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:35 am
ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and
Your pricing is at least ten years old. You are going to have a difficult time finding a brand new SUV with 3rd row seating and leather trim for 50K. All the more reason not to get a brand new vehicle.

Cosmo
Or spend more if that is what is wanted
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by runswithscissors »

pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
1. Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB)
2. Lane Departure Warning (LDW) and Lane Keeping Assist (LKA)
3. Adaptive Cruise Control
4. Blind Spot Monitoring (BSM) and Rear Cross Traffic Alert (RCTA)
5. Driver Attention and Drowsiness Monitoring
6. 360-Degree Surround View Cameras
7. Advanced Airbag Systems (e.g., knee airbags, side airbags)
8. Advanced Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
9. Automatic audible warning of upcoming hazards
10. Haptic steering wheel feedback when departing lanes
11. Intelligent crumple zones
12. Stronger and lighter frames made of advanced materials like high-strength steel and aluminum
13. Improved door designs for better side impact protection
14. Advanced airbag systems with more airbags (e.g., knee, side, and curtain airbags)
15. Enhanced pedestrian safety features, such as pop-up hoods
16. Advanced seatbelts with pretensioners and load limiters
17. LED headlights for better visibility, reliability and longer lifespan
18. Adaptive headlights that adjust beam direction and intensity based on speed and steering angle
19. Automatic high beams that switch between high and low beams depending on oncoming traffic
20. Advanced tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) for better tire safety
21. Improved child seat anchors and ISOFIX mounting points
22. Enhanced higher resolution rearview cameras and displays
23. Advanced parking sensors and automatic parking assist systems
24. Braking systems with electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) and brake assist
25. Daytime running lights (DRLs) for increased visibility
26. Improved ergonomics and driver comfort reducing driver fatigue
27. Regular software updates and bug fixes ensuring optimal performance

...to name a few.
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ThankYouJack
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by ThankYouJack »

Thanks all. It's nudged me and I'll start test driving some cars. Likely go new.
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
A backup camera, automatic braking, lane departure warning, lane keep assist, blind spot warning, rear cross-traffic warning.
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:51 pm
What car do you presently have with 200k miles that's 15 years old. That makes a huge difference. For example, if it's a Hyundai anything, send it to be crushed. If it's a Honda anything, you have 10 more years in it, easy.
It's a Honda and has been great, but was quoted $600 by my mechanic for an oil fix (forget the spot it's seeping from), it's over due on the timing belt, needs new brakes, should replace the entire headlight enclosures as those are fogged up, and any other maintenance around the 200k mark.

I've done some work on cars, but don't work on them any more beside quick basic stuff.
Cosmo wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:35 am
ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm
2) But with the mark ups over MSRP, ~$50k feels like a ton to spend on a new 3 row SUV with leather that I won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and
Your pricing is at least ten years old. You are going to have a difficult time finding a brand new SUV with 3rd row seating and leather trim for 50K. All the more reason not to get a brand new vehicle.

Cosmo
I don't mind synthetic leather. Maybe that helps with the trim / price
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StewedCarrot
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by StewedCarrot »

For me, at 5k mi/yr, it would be wasteful to upgrade.

I’d just rent a car whenever heading out of town on a long trip. New safety features every year and no increase in insurance.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

StewedCarrot wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 7:24 am For me, at 5k mi/yr, it would be wasteful to upgrade.

I’d just rent a car whenever heading out of town on a long trip. New safety features every year and no increase in insurance.
Also can select the vehicle to suit the need. If only hauling 4, say, need may be different than 6+
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by hudson »

runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:38 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
1. Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB)
2. Lane Departure Warning (LDW) and Lane Keeping Assist (LKA)
3. Adaptive Cruise Control
4. Blind Spot Monitoring (BSM) and Rear Cross Traffic Alert (RCTA)
5. Driver Attention and Drowsiness Monitoring
6. 360-Degree Surround View Cameras
7. Advanced Airbag Systems (e.g., knee airbags, side airbags)
8. Advanced Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
9. Automatic audible warning of upcoming hazards
10. Haptic steering wheel feedback when departing lanes
11. Intelligent crumple zones
12. Stronger and lighter frames made of advanced materials like high-strength steel and aluminum
13. Improved door designs for better side impact protection
14. Advanced airbag systems with more airbags (e.g., knee, side, and curtain airbags)
15. Enhanced pedestrian safety features, such as pop-up hoods
16. Advanced seatbelts with pretensioners and load limiters
17. LED headlights for better visibility, reliability and longer lifespan
18. Adaptive headlights that adjust beam direction and intensity based on speed and steering angle
19. Automatic high beams that switch between high and low beams depending on oncoming traffic
20. Advanced tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) for better tire safety
21. Improved child seat anchors and ISOFIX mounting points
22. Enhanced higher resolution rearview cameras and displays
23. Advanced parking sensors and automatic parking assist systems
24. Braking systems with electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) and brake assist
25. Daytime running lights (DRLs) for increased visibility

26. Improved ergonomics and driver comfort reducing driver fatigue
27. Regular software updates and bug fixes ensuring optimal performance

...to name a few.
great list!
I underlined my favorites. I also like power locks, windows, heat and air. :)
Last edited by hudson on Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:39 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:51 pm
What car do you presently have with 200k miles that's 15 years old. That makes a huge difference. For example, if it's a Hyundai anything, send it to be crushed. If it's a Honda anything, you have 10 more years in it, easy.
It's a Honda and has been great, but was quoted $600 by my mechanic for an oil fix (forget the spot it's seeping from), it's over due on the timing belt, needs new brakes, should replace the entire headlight enclosures as those are fogged up, and any other maintenance around the 200k mark.

I've done some work on cars, but don't work on them any more beside quick basic stuff.
$600 isn't a large bill. Especially if this includes a proper timing belt service which would include the belt, water pump and tensioner. Depending on where the oil leak is from, it's either from the valve cover gaskets, which are replaced with a timing belt change as it has to come off to get to it or maybe an oil pan leak which means removing the oil pan and replacing the gasket. Brakes are a DIY introduction task. Yes, they can get more complicated if the caliper pins are seized, but even that's not super difficult and replacement calipers aren't expensive for Hondas. Replacement eBay headlights can easily be found for $100 shipped if you don't want to buy a $15 kit to polish them.

Honda is about the best out there for service manuals. You can also find them for free on Honda Tech or buy one for under $50. Timing belt changes on Hondas are relatively easy for a DIY'er. The 4 cylinders, of course are easier than the 6's but neither are rocket science.

We have way more wrong with our 200k mile, 11 year old Subaru that's still being driven.

If you're in a sales tax state, the sales tax will be significantly more than fixing these minor issues.
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Valuethinker
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Valuethinker »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:51 pm I have a couple questions:

What car do you presently have with 200k miles that's 15 years old. That makes a huge difference. For example, if it's a Hyundai anything, send it to be crushed. If it's a Honda anything, you have 10 more years in it, easy.
What needs to be fixed that you think needs fixing? I mean...hail damage is a big "who cares?" to me but some people are all anxious their friends will see them with a damaged car. If it needs a valve job and a new transmission, then that's big.

I have driven and worked on cars for a very long time. The #1 safety feature in cars is seat belts. They've all had them since 1967. I do respect the engineered crumple zones and how the engine goes someplace other than your lap in a bad front end crash. Everything else is something to stop working, so I give them zero value and heck....if they weren't mandated, I'd delete them when ordering a car.
We may have discussed this before. But isn't the evidence that airbag + seatbelt is significantly safer than just seatbelt? The problem is your body is taking the full force of the deceleration on the belt, which only covers a relatively small proportion of your torso? The problem with airbags is that it makes people think they do not need seatbelts - and airbags alone are markedly inferior to belts.

Anti-lock brakes (ABS) are definitely handy given the reaction times required in that kind of situation. Perhaps you, as someone who drives sports cars, doesn't need them. But I would say the average driver does. I have no familiarity with ESC so I can't comment there.
You also need to catch up on car sales these days. Mark ups over MSRP are gone. I've seen new cars with $14k UNDER MSRP. Both used and new car dealers are loaded to the gills with cars they can't sell. Some brands over the last 5 years have raised MSRP prices 50%. That includes Stellantis (Dodge, Chrysler, Fiat, Jeep, Ram, Alfa), Hyundai and Kia. The lowest increases are Subaru and Mazda. So today, buying a Subaru Legacy or Mazda 6 will give you a similar car to a Camry for way less. (Toyota's in the middle on price increases). Used cars have started coming down and they're going to plummet. So many dealers have held on to used cars they now paid too much for and some are going out of business with the finance company (floor plan) sending the cars to auction for other used car dealers to pick them up cheap. There are even new car dealers sending brand new cars through auction because they're paying literally millions in floor plan finance charges. The Youtube channel, Car Edge had a segment showing a dealer with floor plan costs for the year of $2.7M. They really need to get rid of cars whether new or used. Do not be afraid to low ball dealers now.
With the exception of Toyotas (and perhaps not all models) I believe the chip shortages have been largely ironed out.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

would seem to me that the automatic braking protects the people in the car in front as well as me. Perhaps that should be mandatory?
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by DSBH »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:43 pm My family has a new car, but our other car is over 15 years old with 200k miles. Great car, but none of the new safety features and tech, it's due for some pricey maintenance and I don't want to break down especially if I take it on trips.
...
It's a Honda and has been great, but was quoted $600 by my mechanic for an oil fix (forget the spot it's seeping from), it's over due on the timing belt, needs new brakes, should replace the entire headlight enclosures as those are fogged up, and any other maintenance around the 200k mark.
...
1) Would you definitely get something newer in my shoes?
If you only drive it in town, I would consider fixing it to buy some more time. If you want to take it on long trip, I would just buy a new(er) car.
2) Would you go brand new, a few years old or even older?
3) What would you look for (year model mileage)? Would be interested in a 4runner or Grand Highlander if I go new. Or if I go used maybe a Palisade, Tahoe, Pilot, Yukon, etc.
If you want a new 3 row SUV that you " won't drive a lot (< 5k miles a year) and beat up a bit (it will be for loading gear and kids and on some adventure trips)" I would recommend a new base Grand Highlander.

If you prefer to spend less money and buy used, Infiniti QX60 are good and reliable SUVs for more reasonable :mrgreen: used car prices, but the third row doesn't offer much space.
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bcc1234
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by bcc1234 »

We're upgrading my wife's car to a new Honda CRV Hybrid. She currently drives a 2013 CRV with 70K miles. About to retire and we don't want to "worry" about cars for a while. Obviously, she doesn't drive a lot, but 11 years is a good run for us. Our goal through the years has been to buy new and keep for ten years.

Also buying a new Odyssey at the end of the year. I've had a company vehicle since 1987!!

bcc
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Watty
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by Watty »

One thing that has not been mentioned is that the current car will still likely sell for a non-trivial amount even with the current issues. Most likely someone who has the time and skills to do the work themself will buy it. If you keep it until it dies and is towed to a junkyard you will get next to nothing for it. Keeping it for another few year will cost you the resale value in addition to the maintenance cost.

runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:38 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
1. Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB)
.....
27. Regular software updates and bug fixes ensuring optimal performance

...to name a few.
Great list. I made a bookmark for this for reference when there are future car safety threads.

I would add;
28) Automatically calls 911 with your location if the airbags deploy
29) Less likely to back over a kid because of the rear camera which is a major reason that they are required.
30) Less likely to kill a pedestrian because the automatic braking watches for them.
31) Cell phones are integrated into the car for hands free calling.

One huge safety concern is that a newer car is less likely to break down at an unsafe time or place.
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illumination
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by illumination »

200k+ miles plus is when most of the suspension probably needs to be replaced if it hasn't already, not just shocks/struts. Control arms, ball joints, inner/outer tie rods, strut mounts, sway links etc. If you're not doing the work yourself, this can easily go into several thousands of dollars. Not sure what repairs are coming up, but include those also as something that will probably need to be addressed.

In purely financial terms, keeping the car you have is almost always cheaper. But if you can comfortably afford to replace your current 200k mile car, I think it's being a bit of a "miser" to not replace it. I think your family would likely appreciate something newer. I say this as someone that's taken several car close to that number, but I just don't think it's worth the headache anymore.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by SurferLife »

A few years ago I found myself in a very similar situation. I got tired of the maintenance of my 200k+ miles Toyota 4Runner, so I went out and bought a 4yr old 4Runner with 60k miles. What a great decision that was. The car is not only nicer and more comfortable, but I get all the time back that I was putting towards maintenance. I’d never recommend anyone buy a new car as it’s not a wise money move, though I will concede that there are probably a few exceptions to that.
HaveaNiceDay
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by HaveaNiceDay »

I would add the Car Safety testing has advanced over the past years and the tests have become more rigorous, especially from the IIHS. Espcially if your current car is more than 10 years old.

For example, IIHS.org has updated the side crash testing starting in about 2021 from a 31mph crash with a 3,100lbs barrier to a 37mph crash with a 4,200lbs barrier which is more representative of the cars and large SUVs that can hit you in the side and are on the road today. If car makers want to get a good rating, they up the side protection. The speed and weight increase result in significantly more violent crash than the old numbers, thus requiring more protection.

Other tests have been updated as well.

The new headlight ratings are very helpful, especially as you age. The curve adaptive LED headlights on new Subaru's have made driving much better for my parents.

Point being, testing has evolved so newer cars are built to higher safety standards to score well on tests.
Please excuse the typos, it is my way of showing the post is authentic....
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by jebmke »

bcc1234 wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:17 am We're upgrading my wife's car to a new Honda CRV Hybrid. She currently drives a 2013 CRV with 70K miles. About to retire and we don't want to "worry" about cars for a while. Obviously, she doesn't drive a lot, but 11 years is a good run for us. Our goal through the years has been to buy new and keep for ten years.

Also buying a new Odyssey at the end of the year. I've had a company vehicle since 1987!!

bcc
did you consider other SUVs of same size? I'm starting to look at whether it is time to replace my 2008 RAV4
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by H-Town »

HaveaNiceDay wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:28 pm I would add the Car Safety testing has advanced over the past years and the tests have become more rigorous, especially from the IIHS. Espcially if your current car is more than 10 years old.

For example, IIHS.org has updated the side crash testing starting in about 2021 from a 31mph crash with a 3,100lbs barrier to a 37mph crash with a 4,200lbs barrier which is more representative of the cars and large SUVs that can hit you in the side and are on the road today. If car makers want to get a good rating, they up the side protection. The speed and weight increase result in significantly more violent crash than the old numbers, thus requiring more protection.

Other tests have been updated as well.

The new headlight ratings are very helpful, especially as you age. The curve adaptive LED headlights on new Subaru's have made driving much better for my parents.

Point being, testing has evolved so newer cars are built to higher safety standards to score well on tests.
In reality, modern cars are packed with sensors and electronics. A small crash would likely to mess up your car really badly.

At high speed crash, it would be all about physics at that point. A pickup truck would do better than a sedan or crossover.

So car companies do an excellent job to get you to buy more of their products.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by austin_hiker »

I've gone through similar decisions myself. In my case, I really can't find a suitable replacement. In 2008 my dad sold me his 2003 Toyota Tacoma truck, 2WD, manual (60,000 miles) with a 6' bed, because he and my mom stopped camping and started opting for motels. It's 21 years old now with 220,000 miles and runs great, replaced the clutch last year which seems trivial over 20 years, gets 20mpg at 75mph (used to be more before i put heavy duty tires on it) takes regular gas and is small enough to park anywhere (including my carport) and easy to maneuver. My 91 year old mom can step into it. I routinely take it on long unpaved rocky roads in the mountains of west Texas.

I started looking into a replacement over the past few years, but there is not really one out there. Toyota beefed up the size of its Tacomas long ago; I looked at Subarus instead. The mechanics at my shop all or almost all drive Tacomas, and they have over 200,000 or even 300,000 miles on them.

Bottom line: If you have one in mind you really want, buy it. But I don't think "just because it's old" is a reason to.
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by vnatale »

mhc wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:52 pm I replace cars when they become too much trouble. I always buy new. If you will keep the car for 10+ years, then who cares if you beat it up. It is how you use cars. It sounds like you can afford it. It doesn't matter if the price is above or below MSRP. You pay the market price. I just bought a Honda for below MSRP with no junk fees added.

I drove a 2004 Honda until 2019. My new Honda was so much nicer and enjoyable. I didn't realize how bad the old car was. I only drive about 2000 miles a year plus any road trips. I think it is so worth it to have a new car.
Still driving my 2004 Honda Accord. Has about 165,000 miles on it and I drive about 5,000 a year.

In what ways did you realize how bad your 2004 Honda was? I'm not seeing any issues with mine. More than adequate for my needs.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by vnatale »

ccieemeritus wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 6:14 pm
Your maintenance costs will go down with the new car, but your insurance will go up. DMV registration fees will go up in some states (CA for example).
Along with annual personal property taxes. I've been paying the absolute minimum for my 2004 Honda Accord for years.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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tadamsmar
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by tadamsmar »

hudson wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:18 am
runswithscissors wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:38 am
pascal wrote: Sat Feb 10, 2024 4:07 pm What are all the new safety features you are missing out on?
1. Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB)
2. Lane Departure Warning (LDW) and Lane Keeping Assist (LKA)
3. Adaptive Cruise Control
4. Blind Spot Monitoring (BSM) and Rear Cross Traffic Alert (RCTA)
5. Driver Attention and Drowsiness Monitoring
6. 360-Degree Surround View Cameras
7. Advanced Airbag Systems (e.g., knee airbags, side airbags)
15. Enhanced pedestrian safety features, such as pop-up hoods
16. Advanced seatbelts with pretensioners and load limiters
17. LED headlights for better visibility, reliability and longer lifespan
18. Adaptive headlights that adjust beam direction and intensity based on speed and steering angle
8. Advanced Electronic Stability Control (ESC)
9. Automatic audible warning of upcoming hazards
10. Haptic steering wheel feedback when departing lanes
11. Intelligent crumple zones
12. Stronger and lighter frames made of advanced materials like high-strength steel and aluminum
13. Improved door designs for better side impact protection
14. Advanced airbag systems with more airbags (e.g., knee, side, and curtain airbags)
19. Automatic high beams that switch between high and low beams depending on oncoming traffic
20. Advanced tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) for better tire safety
21. Improved child seat anchors and ISOFIX mounting points
22. Enhanced higher resolution rearview cameras and displays
23. Advanced parking sensors and automatic parking assist systems
24. Braking systems with electronic brakeforce distribution (EBD) and brake assist
25. Daytime running lights (DRLs) for increased visibility

26. Improved ergonomics and driver comfort reducing driver fatigue
27. Regular software updates and bug fixes ensuring optimal performance

...to name a few.
great list!
I underlined my favorites. I also like power locks, windows, heat and air. :)
Advanced Electronic Stability Control (ESC) is by far the most important safety feature on that list:
The IIHS study concluded that ESC reduces the likelihood of all fatal crashes by 43%, fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56%, and fatal single-vehicle rollovers by 77–80%. ESC is described as the most important advance in auto safety by many experts...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroni ... ty_control
Electronic stability control (ESC) is taken for granted today. Now fitted to millions of cars globally, it is recognised as the biggest advancement in vehicle safety since the seatbelt.
https://www.vehicledynamicsinternationa ... ntrol.html

A couple of other safety features:

High curb weight (I know, not very PC to say this)
Being an SUV (they became safer than sedans after ESC was mandated on all vehicles)
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by vnatale »

ThankYouJack wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:39 am
It's a Honda and has been great, but was quoted $600 by my mechanic for an oil fix (forget the spot it's seeping from), it's over due on the timing belt, needs new brakes, should replace the entire headlight enclosures as those are fogged up, and any other maintenance around the 200k mark.

What model / year is your Honda?

My last four cars have been Honda Accords - 1984, 1986, 1995, 2004 (present).

Seems like the 1984 was the last one with a timing belt, which was always quite expensive to do.

For my present 1984 Honda Accord for the last 3+ years I've had these maintenance costs (driving about 5,000 miles per year):

2024 to date - $0

2023 - $0

2022 - Total: $981 -- $508 (Oil change / upper ball joints / parking brake adjustment) / $473 (Exhaust repair)

2021 - $160 (various)

We all like to make our decisions rationally but we oftentimes do fall prey to our emotions in ultimately making our decisions.

So far I've not once felt unsafe any time driving in this car or continuing to drive in this car.

We all draw the line on how much we want to spend $$$$ on gaining more safety while driving.

The extreme could be only buying Range Rovers and driving 10 miles under the speed limit?

The speed at which most people drive their cars is a sure sign that they are not interested in the least $$$ for transportation or the maximum safety.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is it foolish to keep driving my old car?

Post by vnatale »

hudson wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:18 am
I underlined my favorites. I also like power locks, windows, heat and air. :)
I have had all of those since my 1986 Honda Accord.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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