EV Charging Station at Home

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Topic Author
vfinx
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EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

EV inbound and I am trying to figure out the best charging solution. It will come with a 14-50 portable connector, but I don't have that receptacle. 120V would be too slow.

Situation:
  • J1772 vehicle
  • Unused 14-30 receptacle in the garage. Good location for an EVSE. Dedicated 30-amp non-GFCI breaker (house was built before gfci became a requirement).
  • 200A service
  • House is owned, and plan to stay here a while. Don't mind investing, if worthwhile.
Options I gathered so far:
  • Option A: Splitvolt plug-in 14-30 24A. ($300) Recommended by Electrician-A who said anything further would be a waste of money. It's not UL listed I believe.
  • Option B: AmazingE plug-in 14-30 16A. ($200) UL listed, but slower. Probably fast enough though, unless commute pattern changes. It would be nice to have something faster, but we'd be ok.
  • Option C: Replace receptacle with hard-wire unit (e.g. Chargepoint/Grizzl-e) and configure to 24A. ($450 labor + ~$500 EVSE). Recommended by Electrician-B. He is licensed, but hinted that I shouldn't bother with permit+inspection. But he can do it for an additional $800. He also said he could give me guidance on the forms and do permit+inspection myself.
  • Option D: Run new wire to a location very close to the panel, and hardwire at 40A or 48A. $100 more than Option C. Location is less optimal (forces us to back the car in, or wrap the cord around), but still ok. Also recommended by Electrician-B if faster charging is desirable.
In addition to evaluating options, I'd appreciate input on:
  • The benefit of hardwire over plug-in, and whether it's worth the added cost.
  • The importance of permit+inspection, and whether it's worth the added cost (California). From what 2 electricians told me, home EV charging stations are generally being installed without permit+inspection now (one said 90% of his clients).
  • The importance of "UL Listed".
senex
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by senex »

I personally think hardwire is an anti-benefit, because it is not a universal open standard.

People I know are installing 14-50. It is as close to universal open standard as exists, I think.
Gecko10x
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Gecko10x »

For context, we are all-EV household, and I've had mine for 5 years, a good portion of which I charged almost exclusively outdoors on a standard 15A (maybe 20?) outlet.

I think you could very easily find 30/24A too slow in some cases. Most of the time it would probably be fine, but if you run it down and then want to go back out in a short while, it might not be enough.

If it were me, I'd get a 40/32A outlet installed, but I'm not sure there's a ton of benefit to having it hardwired. Hardwired is certainly more convenient. The mobile connector will work fine, but you would likely be placing more stress/use on it then designed, so it may fail earlier.
corduroysuit
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by corduroysuit »

I had to hardwire and get permits, in order to get some rebates from my utility company. I agree that hardwire is an anti-benefit, but I'm also fine with it to get the free $$.

Grizzl-E is a popular choice. I went with ChargePoint since the electric co required a model that they approve (there were 3 or 4 options, but not Grizzl-E). I's been OK but the wifi occasionally disconnects unexpectedly.

I Like your options A & B until you really figure out what you need. I remember having this feeling like I needed to get it all sorted and ready before the car was here, and really it ended up being fine to just slow-charge until we got the faster EVSE installed.

I don't really like option C, it seems like D will give you faster charging and future-proofing... can you spend a little more to wire it closer to your car?
Last edited by corduroysuit on Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eric321
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by eric321 »

I like option A. A good split between faster charging and cost. The other options cost a lot more and I don't see any substantial advantages.

I used a 110 standard wall plug with a phev and the slow charge pace worked surprisingly well for me. It all depends on your commute patterns but you should be fine with option A, and the other options all come with other tradeoffs.
Big Dog
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Big Dog »

I like my hardwired 60 amp circuit, 48 amp continuous. (future proofed). Also, hardwired with correct torque maybe safer?

That said, it still retains flexibility. If I move I take the charger with me, and install a 14-50 receptacle and change the circuit breaker. Not a big deal.

OP: what about Option E: run a cable to the place on your garage where it's most convenient to charge? (That's what we did; required a sub-panel since we only had 100 amp service.)

Electrician was licensed and bonded and said he'd help me complete the paperwork for a permit if I wanted one. (I chose not to follow up.)
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Nate79
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Nate79 »

Read this guy's site and reviews:
https://evchargingstations.com/

There's lots of garbage out there.
cmr79
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by cmr79 »

OP, I don't think we have enough information to know whether your existing NEMA 14-30 outlet (presumably delivering 240V/24A or ~5.8 kW) is enough for your driving habits. How many miles/hour will your ordered EV be able to charge on this outlet, and how often would you expect to nearly fully deplete the battery on a long trip one day and then have to leave again on a long trip the following morning, after a shorter time period than would be required to adequately recharge the EV? For most people, the answer to that would be "never" with any 240V charging solution...
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StewedCarrot
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by StewedCarrot »

16A is what 3.5KW or so? That's ~10 miles of range / charging hour? So ~100+ miles of range per overnight charge.

I'd go with option B if it works.

Option D if you really need the juice.

Personally, I'd probably hardwire if you're going through the trouble of having an electrician install. I got a 14-50 receptacle and realized later that it's not much work to open the junction box if I ever needed to change EVSEs. (Really, since my garage has only one receptable per wall, I should've installed a subpanel and had the EVSE wired from that!)
bikesandbeers
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by bikesandbeers »

Unless you drive more than 75miles a day, just get the Amaze station that plugs in the 14-30. I had a non-ul certified 240 cord set that died in under a year. Not worth saving $50 on something that could damage your much more expensive house or car

I agree with the stat the 90% of folks aren’t pulling permits for simple installs. No permit would be required for using the existing outlet, but technically any new 240v circuit would require a permit.
Topic Author
vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

Thanks for the responses.

Regarding charging speeds, I think the way the difference would play out is that with slower chargers, I would have to plug it in more often. It wouldn’t be a matter of whether I could make it work at all, just a convenience factor.

There may also be a consideration of fitting charging within a lower electricity cost window. I am currently in a tiered rate plan, but it may make sense to move to an EV time-of-use plan. But I haven’t run the numbers on this yet, and I suspect it won’t be a big deal either way (we don’t drive that much, projected ~6k miles on the EV).
suemarkp
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by suemarkp »

You said the car comes with a 14-50 plug? If so, can you tell the car to limit its charging to 24 amps?

If both are true, you can put a 14-50 receptacle on a 30A circuit. Code requires the receptacle to be as larger or larger than the circuit rating (30A). It can seem misleading to put a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit, but the code allows it. I would probably label that receptacle as "30A max" to avoid mis application.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
cyclist
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by cyclist »

If you do decide to go with a 14-50 receptacle, be aware that they're not all equivalent. If you expect to be plugging and unplugging a portable charger, specify a Bryant/Hubbell receptacle. The cheaper ones will give you grief over time - they're made for equipment like residential dryers that stay plugged in once they're plugged in.

I suspect that your portable charger will meet your needs amply that way.

(I use a Tesla wall connector on a 60-amp circuit at our home and Tesla's portable unit in a 14-50 receptacle at our kid's home. Both work just fine.)

Cyclist
billaster
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by billaster »

suemarkp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:25 pm You said the car comes with a 14-50 plug? If so, can you tell the car to limit its charging to 24 amps?

If both are true, you can put a 14-50 receptacle on a 30A circuit. Code requires the receptacle to be as larger or larger than the circuit rating (30A). It can seem misleading to put a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit, but the code allows it. I would probably label that receptacle as "30A max" to avoid mis application.
Even easier, you can use a 14-30 to 14-50 adapter and just plug it right into the existing outlet. You don't even need an electrician.

https://www.amazon.com/ELETHOR-Charger- ... 0BRSSZPYK/

As stated above, it would be best if the EVSE itself could be programmed to only 24 amps, but programming your car to 24 amps should also work.
oxothuk
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by oxothuk »

I believe you will find 14-30 to be sufficient. With an overnight charge window from 9PM-6AM, you will get 240v*24a*9h = 52kWH each night you plug in. That should be enough for 150-200 miles, depending on you car's efficiency.
suemarkp
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by suemarkp »

vfinx wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 5:05 pm EV inbound and I am trying to figure out the best charging solution. It will come with a 14-50 portable connector, but I don't have that receptacle. 120V would be too slow.

In addition to evaluating options, I'd appreciate input on:
  • The benefit of hardwire over plug-in, and whether it's worth the added cost.
  • The importance of permit+inspection, and whether it's worth the added cost (California). From what 2 electricians told me, home EV charging stations are generally being installed without permit+inspection now (one said 90% of his clients).
  • The importance of "UL Listed".
Hardwire connection lets you eliminate GFCI protection for the receptacle which saves about $100+ for a GFCI breaker. There have also been issues with 14-50 receptacles melting down in EV charger applications. You need to buy a good one if doing the full 40 continuous amps through that. I see that Leviton has just come out with a new heavy duty 14-50R for EV charger applications. Hopefully those won't melt down and will be cheaper than the good Hubbell ones.

I'm cynical about permits, as most inspections i have had have been superficial except for once. And on that one time I was battling the guy with the code book for over an hour and finally ended up having to get a ruling from the chief electrical inspector. He ruled in my favor, but the whole process was annoying. Depending on how your permit system works, there may be no way to tell exactly what you have permits for. If the EV charger is just a branch circuit permit and it doesn't say what it is for or the rating, no one is going to know which branch circuit was separately permitted. Here, when I get a permit for a panel, it includes up to 6 circuits, so if I change a panel I can add 6 circuits that the inspector will probably not even look at. That being said, permits and inspections are typically legally required, but it does depend on your jurisdiction.

UL listed is another quandry. I've seen UL listed things that have flaws or issues. Usually they manifest over time or just age degradation. But, to pass a UL (or ETL or other NRTL listing), there are some basic things that need to be met so you'll know at least basic stupid safety things didn't occur. The listing process is expensive, and it is certainly possible to buy a well designed item that isn't NRTL listed. Here in WA (and many other states), anything electrical you install (even in your house, not just for a business) is supposed to be NRTL listed. This is violated every day by Amazon deliveries... There is not a god State enforcement mechanism to find and eliminate these devices. Businesses get some of it at OSHA/WISHA inspections. Homes could if you get an electrical inspection and the inspector notices it. But even the electrical inspector isn't going to pick up your toaster or blender to look for a NRTL mark.
Mark | Somewhere in WA State
Diluted Waters
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Diluted Waters »

A neighbor's electric car charging caught fire in the garage and almost burned the house down. The fire department was there for hours working to control it.

Install fire detection, and ideally, suppression, along with the charger.
Topic Author
vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

billaster wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:32 pm
suemarkp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:25 pm You said the car comes with a 14-50 plug? If so, can you tell the car to limit its charging to 24 amps?

If both are true, you can put a 14-50 receptacle on a 30A circuit. Code requires the receptacle to be as larger or larger than the circuit rating (30A). It can seem misleading to put a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit, but the code allows it. I would probably label that receptacle as "30A max" to avoid mis application.
Even easier, you can use a 14-30 to 14-50 adapter and just plug it right into the existing outlet. You don't even need an electrician.

https://www.amazon.com/ELETHOR-Charger- ... 0BRSSZPYK/

As stated above, it would be best if the EVSE itself could be programmed to only 24 amps, but programming your car to 24 amps should also work.
I’ve looked into this, and if I were the only person that would ever use the car it might be an option but I don’t trust others to keep the amps below 24 in the vehicle. I would also have to install a gfci breaker if I change the receptacle, according to code, and those don’t seem to play nice with EVSEs which have their own gfci.

I also don’t like the idea of added adapters as they are potential failure points. Perhaps I am being paranoid on this point.
cmr79
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by cmr79 »

vfinx wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:55 pm Thanks for the responses.

Regarding charging speeds, I think the way the difference would play out is that with slower chargers, I would have to plug it in more often. It wouldn’t be a matter of whether I could make it work at all, just a convenience factor.

There may also be a consideration of fitting charging within a lower electricity cost window. I am currently in a tiered rate plan, but it may make sense to move to an EV time-of-use plan. But I haven’t run the numbers on this yet, and I suspect it won’t be a big deal either way (we don’t drive that much, projected ~6k miles on the EV).
Regarding plugging in often, for routine use I've started plugging in whenever the car is in the garage. Takes 5 seconds and might be beneficial for long-term battery health. It also means I can precondition from the grid/solar, rather than from the EV battery, any time it is hot or cold.

https://insideevs.com/news/707538/recha ... rip-video/

I have a Grizzl-E EVSE, and just as an aside, they are kind of a pain to hardwire. We (our electrician) ended up putting in a Hubble 14-50 outlet instead as it ended up being easier. I don't think the outlet is a big issue/point of failure as long as you don't get a cheap one, as mentioned above. GFCI/code issues might vary depending on where you are located as not all areas use the same version of the electrical codes.
billaster
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by billaster »

vfinx wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:56 pm
billaster wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:32 pm
suemarkp wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 7:25 pm You said the car comes with a 14-50 plug? If so, can you tell the car to limit its charging to 24 amps?

If both are true, you can put a 14-50 receptacle on a 30A circuit. Code requires the receptacle to be as larger or larger than the circuit rating (30A). It can seem misleading to put a 50A receptacle on a 30A circuit, but the code allows it. I would probably label that receptacle as "30A max" to avoid mis application.
Even easier, you can use a 14-30 to 14-50 adapter and just plug it right into the existing outlet. You don't even need an electrician.

https://www.amazon.com/ELETHOR-Charger- ... 0BRSSZPYK/

As stated above, it would be best if the EVSE itself could be programmed to only 24 amps, but programming your car to 24 amps should also work.
I’ve looked into this, and if I were the only person that would ever use the car it might be an option but I don’t trust others to keep the amps below 24 in the vehicle. I would also have to install a gfci breaker if I change the receptacle, according to code, and those don’t seem to play nice with EVSEs which have their own gfci.

I also don’t like the idea of added adapters as they are potential failure points. Perhaps I am being paranoid on this point.
If that is your decision, then just buy either a 16 or 24 amp EVSE with a 14-30 plug and be done with it. You don't need an electrician to just plug it in.

People tend to get paranoid about 240V circuits as they may seem exotic but don't forget that most of the rest of the world has only 220V to 240V outlets in their homes. Even their little phone chargers plug into a 240V outlets.
Last edited by billaster on Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
stan1
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by stan1 »

Bite the bullet, 14-50 plug with a Chargepoint Home Flex.
Run conduit to where you want the wall outlet.
Especially if you drive the car a lot.
Verify your utilities charging plans. Our super off peak is 12:01 AM to 6:00 AM on weekdays, so its actually not long enough to fully charge our car.

Rip it all out if a buyer wants a permit. Guess is buyer will change their mind.
marc in merrimack
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by marc in merrimack »

Incorporating an outlet and plug in the setup adds both cost and a point of possible failure. Better to choose a charger that allows for a direct wiring installation. Also note that a neutral connection is not utilized for 240V EV chargers.
billaster
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by billaster »

marc in merrimack wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:29 pm Incorporating an outlet and plug in the setup adds both cost and a point of possible failure. Better to choose a charger that allows for a direct wiring installation. Also note that a neutral connection is not utilized for 240V EV chargers.
They already have 30-amp receptacle in the garage so no additional cost required. And "possible point of failure"? You do realize that you likely have a 50 amp plug sitting behind your kitchen range, out of sight, that may have been there for decades. And you likely have a 30 amp plug sitting behind your electrical dryer. Are all of these dangerous points of failure?

Like I said above, people tend to get weirded out about 240V circuits but there's nothing particularly special or dangerous about them.
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vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

stan1 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 9:09 pm Rip it all out if a buyer wants a permit. Guess is buyer will change their mind.
Suppose I go with Option C and hardwire into the existing 30A line, without a permit. What happens when I sell the house? Do I just disclose that the unit was installed without permit, and see if the buyer cares? Suppose they chose to keep it. Am I covered for any post-sale liability as long as it is disclosed?
csr
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by csr »

Option E: 14-30 adapter $20
ShaftoesSpreadsheet
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by ShaftoesSpreadsheet »

Check if your state / city / power company offer rebates. I got several hundred off the install of my ChargePoint. My breaker is 40A, non-GFI, and the charger is hard wired but had to be to get the rebate. There was no existing outlet like in your situation.
ShaftoesSpreadsheet
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by ShaftoesSpreadsheet »

Diluted Waters wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 8:12 pm A neighbor's electric car charging caught fire in the garage and almost burned the house down. The fire department was there for hours working to control it.

Install fire detection, and ideally, suppression, along with the charger.
+1000
tjtv
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by tjtv »

double post
Last edited by tjtv on Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
tjtv
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by tjtv »

csr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:42 pm Option E: 14-30 adapter $20
+1

You should definitely start with this. Almost certainly it will be fine. If you find that it isn't sufficient, then and only then should you consider a different option.
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vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

tjtv wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:26 am
csr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:42 pm Option E: 14-30 adapter $20
+1

You should definitely start with this. Almost certainly it will be fine. If you find that it isn't sufficient, then and only then should you consider a different option.
From what I’ve read, this is advised against because adapters are a point of failure long term, and it’s easy to forget to set the charge rate to a lower value in the vehicle. One of the safety functions of an EVSE is the control signal that it sends to the vehicle to limit amps drawn. By lying to the EVSE, it then lies to the EV claiming that up to 40A can be drawn. So then there’s a resulting danger zone from 25 to 30 amps where my breaker would not trip, but wiring/receptacle/adapter’s continuous load capacity is exceeded.
stefan_lec
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by stefan_lec »

vfinx wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:20 am
tjtv wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:26 am
csr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:42 pm Option E: 14-30 adapter $20
+1

You should definitely start with this. Almost certainly it will be fine. If you find that it isn't sufficient, then and only then should you consider a different option.
From what I’ve read, this is advised against because adapters are a point of failure long term, and it’s easy to forget to set the charge rate to a lower value in the vehicle. One of the safety functions of an EVSE is the control signal that it sends to the vehicle to limit amps drawn. By lying to the EVSE, it then lies to the EV claiming that up to 40A can be drawn. So then there’s a resulting danger zone from 25 to 30 amps where my breaker would not trip, but wiring/receptacle/adapter’s continuous load capacity is exceeded.
We have a Grizzl-e with a 14-50 plug (not hardwired), plus a $20 adapter to let us plug it into our 30 amp dryer outlet. Highly recommend it because it's fairly cheap and UL listed. Our splitvolt died after only a year or two.

The Grizzl-e can be limited to 24A draw by unscrewing the case and flipping some toggle switches, so you can guarantee it won't draw too much, regardless of the car settings.

Wear on the adapter or receptacle is a non-issue - just get a nice adapter from a company that UL lists its products, such as NeoCharge. It's like a dryer, you plug it in once and probably won't unplug it for years.
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stefan_lec
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by stefan_lec »

Responses to other stuff:

1) Agree with earlier poster that said hardwired is actually detrimental. 14-30 or 14-50 NEMA outlets are standard, and having a plug makes it easy to replace your charger if it breaks, or take it with you if you sell the house.

Would you hardwire your dryer? Same tradeoffs, really.

2) How much charging amperage do you need?

Let's assume you charge every night for ten hours. There's no convenience issue with this - plugging in the car when you get out takes like 5 seconds, it's no harder than plugging in your cell phone at night.

Typical vehicle efficiencies:
Small Car: 4 mi / kWh
Med SUV: 3 mi / kWh

40A charger (50A circuit):
9.6 kW for 10 hrs = 96 kWh
Car: 384 miles added
SUV: 288 miles added

24A charger (30A circuit):
5.76 kW for 10 hrs = 57.6 kWh
Car: 230 miles added
SUV: 173 miles added

Note that most drivers average 40 miles per day or less, so even 24A is way more than is typically needed.
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Valuethinker
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Valuethinker »

vfinx wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 6:55 pm Thanks for the responses.

Regarding charging speeds, I think the way the difference would play out is that with slower chargers, I would have to plug it in more often. It wouldn’t be a matter of whether I could make it work at all, just a convenience factor.

There may also be a consideration of fitting charging within a lower electricity cost window. I am currently in a tiered rate plan, but it may make sense to move to an EV time-of-use plan. But I haven’t run the numbers on this yet, and I suspect it won’t be a big deal either way (we don’t drive that much, projected ~6k miles on the EV).
If you were considering solar PV, that would also factor in - cheaper to charge, then, during the day.

In time, there will be Vehicle-2-Grid. You will rent your battery to the grid, in effect.

(There are water heating arrangements that have been doing this since the 1970s- in North America. Electric hot water heaters where the utility can turn them off at times of high demand. The hot water tank is in effect then, energy storage - allowing time shifting by the utility).
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just frank
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by just frank »

I've been driving an EV for almost 10 years, and installed my own (hardwired, 30A) EVSE in 2014.

I like option A a lot. Done.

The EVSE has a GFI circuit, that is basically what it is. So plugging in an EVSE into a GFI outlet sometimes causes problems. The GFI outlet only adds a layer of safety to the act of plugging in the EVSE to the outlet. Once you have plugged that in, while presumably not standing in a puddle of water, it would have no further function.

EVs are going to continue to evolve over the next decade. The plugs might change (to NACS). Many households might want to get TWO EVs, and get a charger with two heads. Many might want to switch to dispatchable charging controlled by their utility, or dynamic TOU rates, or get solar installed and coordinate with that.

None of that tech is really mature at this point, so it is quite possible that an expensive EVSE you buy today will be obsolete to you in 5 or 10 years.

The alternative is if you are eligible to get the installation of a 14-50 (get a Hubbell outlet) for effectively FREE today, and might not be in the future, then duh, go for it.
onourway
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by onourway »

I vote hardwire. It's really not that much more difficult than a plug, and if you install a new plug, by code I understand you are likely to require a GFCI. If that GFCI ever trips, your charging will be interrupted which could be a hassle if you were counting on that charge to drive in the morning.
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vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

stefan_lec wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:29 am
vfinx wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 1:20 am
tjtv wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 12:26 am
csr wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2024 11:42 pm Option E: 14-30 adapter $20
+1

You should definitely start with this. Almost certainly it will be fine. If you find that it isn't sufficient, then and only then should you consider a different option.
From what I’ve read, this is advised against because adapters are a point of failure long term, and it’s easy to forget to set the charge rate to a lower value in the vehicle. One of the safety functions of an EVSE is the control signal that it sends to the vehicle to limit amps drawn. By lying to the EVSE, it then lies to the EV claiming that up to 40A can be drawn. So then there’s a resulting danger zone from 25 to 30 amps where my breaker would not trip, but wiring/receptacle/adapter’s continuous load capacity is exceeded.
We have a Grizzl-e with a 14-50 plug (not hardwired), plus a $20 adapter to let us plug it into our 30 amp dryer outlet. Highly recommend it because it's fairly cheap and UL listed. Our splitvolt died after only a year or two.

The Grizzl-e can be limited to 24A draw by unscrewing the case and flipping some toggle switches, so you can guarantee it won't draw too much, regardless of the car settings.

Wear on the adapter or receptacle is a non-issue - just get a nice adapter from a company that UL lists its products, such as NeoCharge. It's like a dryer, you plug it in once and probably won't unplug it for years.
Unfortunately the charger that comes with the car isn’t configurable like that.

I explored the idea of a Grizzl-e + adapter but from what I can tell the adapter itself is never UL listed. But I could be wrong on that. The solution you have is one of the first I considered and is quite tempting. It won’t save me much in the short term since I still have to buy a third party EVSE, but at least I’m not stuck with a 14-30 specific charger that might become useless if I do end up upgrading wiring/receptacle later.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by crefwatch »

You didn't describe your current commute, or likely EV use pattern. I installed a 14-50, but set my Grizzl-E to 24 Amps. (Actually, they do that at the factory if you buy from them. Free FedEx shipping.) I plug in when I'm near 50%, at say 5PM. The car is full (set for 80% stop) before we go to bed. But even if I'm at 25%, the car is full by 3 AM. Chevy Bolt EV. 259 miles nominal range.
lazydavid
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by lazydavid »

If you're going to re-use the existing circuit, make sure there's actually a ground. A fair number of 14-30s wired as "dryer outlets" were converted from older 3-prong receptacles and have hot/hot/neutral but no ground.
zlandar
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by zlandar »

I would not get a level 2 charger that is not UL listed. Maybe it's ok. Maybe not. The cost savings are not worth plugging in a non-UL device handling that much electricity.

I would either go B or D depending on how much you want to spend. ClipperCreek makes option B. My workplace uses ClipperCreek chargers with two charging plugs. They are exposed to the weather and always work. impressed with the reliability.

For $100 difference I would pick D over C to run thicker wiring that can support up to 48A.

Hardwire will save you on installing a 14-50 outlet and installing a non-GCFI 50 amp switch (~$130-200). With the outlet you have the flexibility of unplugging the charger and taking it with you if you move. If you decide on an outlet try not to plug/unplug the charger too much. You will loosen the contacts inside the outlet. If the charger is to be wall-mounted pay attention to the the plug and outlet orientation. The charger cord to the outlet are very thick and short. I needed my electrician to flip my 14-50 outlet orientation after I received my charger.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by crefwatch »

I thought that recent UL listing comments referred to 30Amp to 50Amp adapters, not to the EVSE itself. The problem is that unapproved adapters are much cheaper. But users have reported problems with low-cost, Big-Box store, wall receptacles (i.e. permanent equipment, not an "adapter") having poor contact springs, and overheating during use near their rated current. My Grizzl-E 14-50 male plug gets warm even at 24 Amps. I did spray the prongs with electrical contact lube, but it still gets warm. Because it's made in Canada, Grizzl-E's are both UL and CSA listed, and the device includes its own GFCI.

It may be helpful to think about EVSE's in relation to wide-screen TV's. An electronic device that costs $400 or $500 is not a "lifetime purchase". When it dies, or becomes obsolete, you get rid of it. However, I agree that UL listing is essential.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by TravellingTechOnFire »

This picture is one of the big reasons I bought a Grizzle-e charger. This type of wiring hygiene does not happen by accident. It speaks of perfection, flawless engineering, and exceptional attention to detail.

Grizzle-e on the right:

https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/WpvEg ... zzl-e.webp
From article:
https://insideevs.com/news/426618/grizz ... er-review/

Do you want 3,600-10,000 watts drawn for many hours on end through cheap, knockoff, non UL Amazon equipment that can burn your house down?
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I should remember that I’m on Bogleheads, but I don’t understand why this is a question. I installed a hardwired Tesla charger on a 100A line (can draw 80A continuous but vehicle is limited to 72A). I usually charge at 20A and charge only to 50% SOC (state of charge) or so, but it’s nice to know that I can do a quick turnaround if I need to.

I have never regretted this decision, and it will come in handy when my wife buys a Macan EV in the near future. I ordered a Mercedes EQS SUV to replace my Tesla. I will use an adapter, but perhaps I’ll buy a dual charger when they become more of a commodity. Right now they are pricey.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by neilpilot »

zlandar wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:33 am I would not get a level 2 charger that is not UL listed. Maybe it's ok. Maybe not. The cost savings are not worth plugging in a non-UL device handling that much electricity.

I would either go B or D depending on how much you want to spend. ClipperCreek makes option B. My workplace uses ClipperCreek chargers with two charging plugs. They are exposed to the weather and always work. impressed with the reliability.
Might be useful to mention that I believe you are actually recommending Enphase EVSEs. Didn't they buy Clipper Creek in 2022 and rebrand the EVSE line?
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vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 9:30 am I should remember that I’m on Bogleheads, but I don’t understand why this is a question. I installed a hardwired Tesla charger on a 100A line (can draw 80A continuous but vehicle is limited to 72A). I usually charge at 20A and charge only to 50% SOC (state of charge) or so, but it’s nice to know that I can do a quick turnaround if I need to.

I have never regretted this decision, and it will come in handy when my wife buys a Macan EV in the near future. I ordered a Mercedes EQS SUV to replace my Tesla. I will use an adapter, but perhaps I’ll buy a dual charger when they become more of a commodity. Right now they are pricey.
The Tesla Universal Wall Connector is $600 and handles both. I’m considering it if I hardwire.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Zubs »

2 notes:

-I had a lot of problems with the Grizzl-e Smart charger. It stops charging if it loses a WiFi connection.

Just get the dumb version if you want Grizzl-e. Most cars have programmable charging anyway so the smart features in a charger are pointless.

-Chargers and the electrical work, permits, etc… are eligible for a tax credit…The credit dropped my total charger cost down by about 20%
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by zlandar »

neilpilot wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:19 am
zlandar wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 7:33 am I would not get a level 2 charger that is not UL listed. Maybe it's ok. Maybe not. The cost savings are not worth plugging in a non-UL device handling that much electricity.

I would either go B or D depending on how much you want to spend. ClipperCreek makes option B. My workplace uses ClipperCreek chargers with two charging plugs. They are exposed to the weather and always work. impressed with the reliability.
Might be useful to mention that I believe you are actually recommending Enphase EVSEs. Didn't they buy Clipper Creek in 2022 and rebrand the EVSE line?
I just followed the OPs link and saw the charger was branded Clipper creek. I’ve never heard of Enphase.

My level 2 charger research/choices were limited by the ones approved by my utility for a $250 rebate.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by TomatoTomahto »

zlandar wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:44 am I just followed the OPs link and saw the charger was branded Clipper creek. I’ve never heard of Enphase. .
Enphase is a company well known in solar production and storage. They are especially known for their micro inverters, the newer ones of which can provide backup power during a grid outage in sunlight without relying on a battery.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by neilpilot »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 2:54 pm
zlandar wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2024 10:44 am I just followed the OPs link and saw the charger was branded Clipper creek. I’ve never heard of Enphase. .
Enphase is a company well known in solar production and storage. They are especially known for their micro inverters, the newer ones of which can provide backup power during a grid outage in sunlight without relying on a battery.
...the OP's link does go to the Enphase site. That particular EVSE is an older model that hasn't been rebranded.
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by Pdxnative »

I’d start with seeing if you’re eligible for local utility, state incentives. Those might have specific requirements.

Then check eligibility for the federal credit.

You might find that a large portion of installation cost would be covered by incentives.

I have a 60 amp circuit with hardwired Chargepoint home flex charging at 48 and it works great.

I don’t think that charging speed is necessary but it’s nice.

Hardwiring for us was preferred for safety (actually was required by the charger for 48 amp charging). We had concerns about receptacle overheating and cost was comparable to just hardwire.

If we already had the receptacle and no incentives, I might’ve just gone with a slower charger and it probably would’ve been fine.

I’d check out the state of charge channel on YouTube; there might be some useful info there for you.
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vfinx
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Re: EV Charging Station at Home

Post by vfinx »

I went with Option B: 16A, $200, UL Listed from Clipper Creek.

It works great. I cannot imagine a scenario where the "slow" charge rate will matter. If I am on a road trip, then this setup won't matter, and I cannot remember a time where I drove hundreds of miles on multiple consecutive days, while being close to home.

I am considering a Bryant 14-30 receptacle upgrade ($60) for peace of mind, but am in no rush. I don't plan to unplug the charger often, if ever at all, and I'm running at well below line capacity. It barely feels warm to the touch even after hours on charge.

Thanks for the suggestions.
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