Permeable pavers - anyone got experience with these?

[Bklmt2000]

Looking to replace our backyard patio/stairs, driveway, and walkway from driveway to porch, all poured concrete.

Patio and stairs have some problematic cracks, and driveway, patio, and front walkway have all shifted/buckled, to where all are holding water instead of draining properly; all are original from when our house was built in 1985.

Talked to my landscaper last week (he was doing a spring cleanup for a neighbor and stopped by to talk). I mentioned needing a tree cut down (he will refer me to his tree guy), and while we were talking, I mentioned looking to replace our patio, and eventually our driveway. He asked if I'd consider pavers, at least for the patio, and I said sure. He said he'd have his paver guy (?) contact me and give a quote.

Been looking at permeable pavers; anyone got experience with these? I like the idea of rain/snow not being diverted to a storm drain/sewer, but I also wonder about long-term durability, since this is a topic brand-new to me.

Just want to know what I might be getting into if I go the paver route, especially pitfalls/things to ask the installer, to make sure he knows what he's doing and to avoid any preventable surprises.

[Tubes]

I don't have personal experience. However, I've been watching the projects done at the North Carolina rest stops along the main interstates. Over the last decade, the state DOT has converted much of the paved area around the rest stops to this system.

It is holding up well, some areas are now 10 years old. But...

It is a very strict engineered system. They didn't just plop down some pavers and call it a day. It involved significant engineering to ascertain infiltration rates, auxiliary drainage when overwhelmed, and big time work on the base aggregate material. I saw some of the construction in progress and it was quite a project. They also put a lot of effort in the edge banding to hold everything together.

Here's information on how NC does it: https://deq.nc.gov/media/17539/download

BTW: this is not the old "grid" type pavers. They are very sharp looking pavers that I find attractive and would be happy to have on my property.

TL/DR; the way it is constructed is important and requires a lot of work and new base material if you want true success.

[30west]

I live in the snow belt and I have a concrete driveway next to a paver patio and walk. The pavers are dark red in color. The patio has a slight pitch so rain water runs off just as if it were a solid surface. While the driveway tends to get icy in the winter, the pavers are usually bare and dry. After I shovel the paver walk, the sun hits it and the dark colors warm up fast and any remaing snow just melts or evaporates. I would love to have a paver driveway. Be sure you get a proper base because pavers could settle a little where the car is usually parked.

[Jeepergeo]

I have a ton of experience in this arena.

First, the pavers themselves are not generally considered permeable. Rather, the pavers are part of a permeable paving system that includes a storage layer, base layer, leveling layer, the pavers, the spaces between the pavers, and the aggregate filling the spaces.

The more permeable your subsoils, the less you need in the storage layer.

Make sure to only use pavers that have integrated spacers to maintain the block-to-block spacing because it is the space between pavers that's permeable.

These systems need to be designed by an engineer or company that specializes in permeable paving systems...while not complicated to install, there are some specialized equipment and techniques needed... don't let someone train themself on your project. You won't know you have problems until a year later. Pay a pro to do it right. If it were just a small patio, sure, let the gardner have at it. But for large areas and vehicle traveled areas, get a pro.

When you buy pavers, buy a small supply for replacements. While cracks are rare, oil drip stains are not, and it's nice to pop out the stained paver and either flop it over or just swap it out.

Good luck. The systems are beautiful, and well worth it long term if you can swing the upfront cost.

[Tubes]

I have a ton of experience in this arena.

First, the pavers themselves are not generally considered permeable. Rather, the pavers are part of a permeable paving system that includes a storage layer, base layer, leveling layer, the pavers, the spaces between the pavers, and the aggregate filling the spaces.

The more permeable your subsoils, the less you need in the storage layer.

Make sure to only use pavers that have integrated spacers to maintain the block-to-block spacing because it is the space between pavers that's permeable.

These systems need to be designed by an engineer or company that specializes in permeable paving systems...while not complicated to install, there are some specialized equipment and techniques needed... don't let someone train themself on your project. You won't know you have problems until a year later. Pay a pro to do it right. If it were just a small patio, sure, let the gardner have at it. But for large areas and vehicle traveled areas, get a pro.

When you buy pavers, buy a small supply for replacements. While cracks are rare, oil drip stains are not, and it's nice to pop out the stained paver and either flop it over or just swap it out.

Good luck. The systems are beautiful, and well worth it long term if you can swing the upfront cost.

Jeepergeo: what about maintenance? The NC paper I referenced was clear that good maintenance was required to keep the seams open, and certain types of maintenance could mess it up, like power washing.

[MikeWillRetire]

These pavers can work if you have permeable soil like sand. You mention that the existing driveway has shifted and buckled, and that is not a good sign for using permeable pavers.
The civil engineer in me does not like them. My soil is full of clay, so I built my patio with brick pavers, set on 1/2" of sand, on top of 6" of reinforced concrete, reinforced with #4 bars @12" each way, not mesh. Yes it is over-engineered, but I was a young engineer back then, and I built it myself. It still looks great after 28 years. No movement, no cracks.
Also, I prefer brick pavers, not the concrete ones. They last longer, and the look does not change. And from what I remember from back then, the brick pavers were around the same price as the concrete pavers.

[Tubes]

Trees kill driveways, no matter the type.

[WhyNotUs]

Study freeze/thaw in your area and ongoing maintenance before making a decision.
They can work well in some situations. For me, that is warmer, wetter climate.

[Glockenspiel]

I'm a civil engineer and has some experience with permeable pavers. They work well in locations where there isn't a lot of road salt, sediment build-up, or heavy trucks/vehicles driving over them.

If you're just driving your normal sized car over them, or using them as a patio, they should work fine for you. Make sure you have a really good base.

On roads in locations with a climate with lots of snow and have snow plows driving over them, they don't work well because they get clogged up with salt/sediment in those locations.

[tm3]

17 years ago re did my asphalt driveway with a combination, about 70/30, of permeable paver system and asphalt (long story as to why this combo). Part of driveway is relatively flat, the rest is on a grade up to about 20%. 4 years later had to re do the asphalt part as the base gravel layer was apparently insufficient causing the asphalt to fail. As of today the asphalt portion is again cracking and sinking and I'm not sure how much longer it was hold up. The pavers are in great shape. I wish that I had done the whole driveway in pavers.

[crefwatch]

Just FYI, my town Committee declared in a zoning rule that "pavers" no longer counted towards (regulated) impermeable lot coverage. As others have noted, that is false. I believe they are encouraging redevelopment to increase tax collection without raising the tax rate!

[gtd98765]

We had our old brick driveway replaced with permeable pavers about ten years ago. Unfortunately we learned that the driveway area below ground level was essentially all clay, and even with a foot or more of rocks below the pavers the clay basin eventually filled up with water when it rained and the water flowed into our basement. We ended up putting polymer sand between the pavers so more water would flow downhill and off them to the street, as well as digging drainage lines underground that led to the gutters, and one to our basement laundry sink.

Today all is well, but the main point is: make sure you know where the rainwater will end up.

[Jeepergeo]

I have a ton of experience in this arena.

First, the pavers themselves are not generally considered permeable. Rather, the pavers are part of a permeable paving system that includes a storage layer, base layer, leveling layer, the pavers, the spaces between the pavers, and the aggregate filling the spaces.

The more permeable your subsoils, the less you need in the storage layer.

Make sure to only use pavers that have integrated spacers to maintain the block-to-block spacing because it is the space between pavers that's permeable.

These systems need to be designed by an engineer or company that specializes in permeable paving systems...while not complicated to install, there are some specialized equipment and techniques needed... don't let someone train themself on your project. You won't know you have problems until a year later. Pay a pro to do it right. If it were just a small patio, sure, let the gardner have at it. But for large areas and vehicle traveled areas, get a pro.

When you buy pavers, buy a small supply for replacements. While cracks are rare, oil drip stains are not, and it's nice to pop out the stained paver and either flop it over or just swap it out.

Good luck. The systems are beautiful, and well worth it long term if you can swing the upfront cost.

Jeepergeo: what about maintenance? The NC paper I referenced was clear that good maintenance was required to keep the seams open, and certain types of maintenance could mess it up, like power washing.

A driveway on a landscaped lot with no erosion can go years with virtually no maintenance. Once you see a reduction of infiltration capacity, you can use a water and detergent spray to loosen the sediments in the gaps, and then vacuum op the soapy sediment water. That dirty water can likely be spread on a lawn or disposed in the sewer (after letting the solids settle). You might loose some of the aggregate in the gaps...just spread some new aggregate and broom it in.

Most likely, you will not need to clean the entire area, rather, just focus on those where the infiltration is slow.

There are companies that do this. Just avoid those that just want to use high pressure as that can force sediment down into the gaps rather than remove it. I've syccessfully used a garden hose at about 65PSI with a conical nozzle. It's a trade off between pressure to agitate the sediments loose and volume to float them out.... you'll know it when you hit the optimal combination. You'll need help by someone operating the shop vac to pick up the suspended sediment.

[Tubes]

I have a ton of experience in this arena.

First, the pavers themselves are not generally considered permeable. Rather, the pavers are part of a permeable paving system that includes a storage layer, base layer, leveling layer, the pavers, the spaces between the pavers, and the aggregate filling the spaces.

The more permeable your subsoils, the less you need in the storage layer.

Make sure to only use pavers that have integrated spacers to maintain the block-to-block spacing because it is the space between pavers that's permeable.

These systems need to be designed by an engineer or company that specializes in permeable paving systems...while not complicated to install, there are some specialized equipment and techniques needed... don't let someone train themself on your project. You won't know you have problems until a year later. Pay a pro to do it right. If it were just a small patio, sure, let the gardner have at it. But for large areas and vehicle traveled areas, get a pro.

When you buy pavers, buy a small supply for replacements. While cracks are rare, oil drip stains are not, and it's nice to pop out the stained paver and either flop it over or just swap it out.

Good luck. The systems are beautiful, and well worth it long term if you can swing the upfront cost.

Jeepergeo: what about maintenance? The NC paper I referenced was clear that good maintenance was required to keep the seams open, and certain types of maintenance could mess it up, like power washing.

A driveway on a landscaped lot with no erosion can go years with virtually no maintenance. Once you see a reduction of infiltration capacity, you can use a water and detergent spray to loosen the sediments in the gaps, and then vacuum op the soapy sediment water. That dirty water can likely be spread on a lawn or disposed in the sewer (after letting the solids settle). You might loose some of the aggregate in the gaps...just spread some new aggregate and broom it in.

Most likely, you will not need to clean the entire area, rather, just focus on those where the infiltration is slow.

There are companies that do this. Just avoid those that just want to use high pressure as that can force sediment down into the gaps rather than remove it. I've syccessfully used a garden hose at about 65PSI with a conical nozzle. It's a trade off between pressure to agitate the sediments loose and volume to float them out.... you'll know it when you hit the optimal combination. You'll need help by someone operating the shop vac to pick up the suspended sediment.

That's great information!