All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Locked
User avatar
Topic Author
bertilak
Posts: 9761
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: East of the Pecos, West of the Mississippi

All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
cmr79
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla

Post by cmr79 »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
There are both plug-in hybrid (i.e. Prius Prime) and non-plug-in hybrids (i.e. regular Prius). Whether one of these vs a full electric vs a traditional ICE is best depends on many factors individualized to specific use cases. Dual powertrains are a perceived negative feature, but overall reliability doesn't seem to be any different than ICE engines (with the caveat that the most popular and longest-running hybrid models are from Toyota, already well regarded for all things reliability). Weight and efficiency may be bigger issues--if you use a plug-in hybrid purely as an electric or purely without plugging in, you are lugging around significant excess weight everywhere you go.

Someone who can't charge at home probably shouldn't get a plug-in vehicle at this point. Beyond that, it is tough to give generalized advice.
neilpilot
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla

Post by neilpilot »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
Only about a third of US households have only 1 auto. The majority own 2 or more cars. It's easy to envision a situation were an EV is owned primarily to commute to work and/or for local drives. EV owners, especially those living in homes, will typically find their local charging options irrelevant.
mkc
Moderator
Posts: 1845
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:59 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by mkc »

[bertilak's post and responses split into their own topic here since it was a different question. Thank you to the member who reported it and explained what was wrong - mod mkc]
quantAndHold
Posts: 7935
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by quantAndHold »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
I think the main thing you’re missing is most EV drivers do 99% of their charging at home. The EVs mentioned in that thread all have 200+ mile range, so the only time charging will become an issue is on road trips, and chargers are readily available in the usual travel corridors. There are trip planning apps that will route you from charger to charger. The feds have poured money into building out the fast charger infrastructure, so I expect the situation to continue to improve. There might be issues in the some of the lightly populated places in the west, but I’ve driven by Tesla charging stations out in the middle of nowhere in the Mojave desert, so I’m not sure that’s even an issue.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
User avatar
jabberwockOG
Posts: 2903
Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 7:23 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by jabberwockOG »

Millions of people don't have a garage, or live in apartments/condos and have to park their cars out in the street. It's going to be a long time before everyone can easily charge their EV car "at home". Hybrids make way more sense unless you have a place to easily charge your EV car at home when you are not using it.
Normchad
Posts: 4416
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Normchad »

jabberwockOG wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:26 pm Millions of people don't have a garage, or live in apartments/condos and have to park their cars out in the street. It's going to be a long time before everyone can easily charge their EV car "at home". Hybrids make way more sense unless you have a place to easily charge your EV car at home when you are not using it.
Correct. As a very happy EV owner, I would never recommend one to somebody who can’t charge at home.

All of my charging is done at home, save 4-5 times a year when I’m on a trip.
User avatar
happyisland
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:36 pm
Location: nos baranca tan stima

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by happyisland »

Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

When you do need to go on a rare long road trip you could always rent an ICE car if necessary...
Normchad
Posts: 4416
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Normchad »

happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

When you do need to go on a rare long road trip you could always rent an ICE car if necessary...
I will say, I’ve had my EV for 40 months now. I went in for a warranty repair for the first time last week. So that’s pretty good, 40 months without going back fir anything at all*. (I did replace my cabin air filter after two years though). With my other cars, I’d have done 7 oil changes in that time.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 14683
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Normchad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:31 pm
jabberwockOG wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:26 pm Millions of people don't have a garage, or live in apartments/condos and have to park their cars out in the street. It's going to be a long time before everyone can easily charge their EV car "at home". Hybrids make way more sense unless you have a place to easily charge your EV car at home when you are not using it.
Correct. As a very happy EV owner, I would never recommend one to somebody who can’t charge at home.

All of my charging is done at home, save 4-5 times a year when I’m on a trip.
I charge at home, but my BIL charges at work.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 48042
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by nisiprius »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
Our current lifestyles have, to some extent, evolved on the assumption of cars with 400-mile ranges and 5-minute refueling.

The original hybrids only run off gasoline. There are "plug-in hybrids," which can be charged, I believe usually through house current, not charging stations. They are best thought of as ordinary cars with much-improved fuel efficiency.

The original hybrids were truly "hybrids," a unitary kind of engine, not two engines in one. The battery does not hold enough energy to drive for significant distances, maybe only a mile or so, so there is no point in having the capability to plug in. It is a clever solution to the problem of drivability. Traditional pure internal-combustion engines need to be large to have enough torque for acceleration. This makes them big, and means they are often running at speed and torque combinations that are inefficient. In the original hybrids, the ICE is optimized for efficiency over power, and it only runs at speeds at which it is efficient. The electric motor provides drivability by supplying torque when needed. It doesn't power the car steadily, it lends energy to the small ICE during acceleration, and the ICE pays it back when the car is cruising. It also affords the opportunity of capturing some energy by dynamic braking.

One of the beneficial tradeoffs in the original hybrids is that the battery does not to be excessively large or heavy. Before lithium batteries were ready for prime time, Toyota was able to develop the original Prius using NiMH batteries, not lithium.

Plug-in hybrids are a little awkward, because the battery needs to be bigger, which adds weight and takes up space, while the ICE can't be any smaller. The Prius Prime has a claimed electric range of only 25 miles. So it is only beneficial if a large percentage of the miles are driven on very short trips.

An all-electric car might be annoying for some drivers. In 2017 we were stopped at a campground in Nebraska. A Tesla drove in, and was disappointed to find that the electric service was only 15 amps, and wondered if we knew if there were campsites with 20-amp service. Eventually he shrugged and settled for a 15 amp site. He drove off the next day. I didn't have a chance to ask him, but I assume overnight at 15 amps would only be a partial charge, but probably enough to drive the 50 miles to either Omaha or Kansas City, where probably he could find a fast charger. Still, long camping trips are doable, I guess.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
02nz
Posts: 8758
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 02nz »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful
Lots of people have the ability to charge at home. Even if they don't want to put in an L2 (240V) charging station, an EV can charge from a regular 110V outlet at about 3-5 miles/hour. For most people, that's plenty.

If you have charging at home, then the location/density of chargers only becomes an issue for road trips. Check out Plugshare to see what the charging infrastructure looks like on your routes.
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?
The electric technology is simple, mature, and highly efficient. I can't think of a single way in which ICE is competitive, other than cost and speed of refilling on road trips - and even the latter is getting better for EVs, with some vehicles able to get most of a charge in under 20 minutes.
cadreamer2015
Posts: 1250
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 1:52 pm
Location: North County San Diego

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by cadreamer2015 »

There are often considered to be three flavors of hybrids: full hybrids, mild hybrids and plug-in hybrids.

The difference between full and mild hybrids is that the full hybrid (like a Toyota Prius) can drive for some distance under only electric power, albeit usually at slow speed and very limited range. The mild hybrid just uses the electric motor to add power to the driving wheels and recharge the battery during regenerative braking. In practice, both the full and mild hybrids act like internal combustion engine (ICE) cars, though getting significantly greater MPG.

The plug-in hybrid (e.g. the Prius Prime) can drive a significant distance (25 miles or more) under only electric power at normal speeds. When the battery charge is depleted, the ICE powertrain kicks in and the vehicle can be driven as a normal ICE car.
Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,
A full or mild hybrid only charges its battery during regenerative braking, capturing the the energy that would normally be lost to heat in the brake pads. A plug-in hybrid, like a full battery electric vehicle (BEV), can charge its battery from a charging station, as well as capturing energy from regenerative braking. Some plug-in hybrids can charge their battery by purposely running the ICE, but that is usually an inefficient way to power driving.

Driving long distances to remote destinations is no problem in a hybrid vehicle of any type. When the battery is depleted you just use the car as a normal ICE, fueling up at any gas station. If you have a plug-in hybrid you may be able to charge the vehicle at your destination, but that's not a necessity. For a BEV you will need to find charging stations along your route and/or at your destination. Charging stations are being built out in more and more locations, but this still could be a concern depending on your destination. And recharging a BEV, unless you have a Tesla and are using one of their Superchargers, takes a considerable amount of time. See this link to the U.S. Department of Transportation write up on charging speeds at various types of charging facilities: https://www.transportation.gov/rural/ev ... om%20empty.
De gustibus non disputandum est
User avatar
Topic Author
bertilak
Posts: 9761
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: East of the Pecos, West of the Mississippi

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

cadreamer2015 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:44 pm In practice, both the full and mild hybrids act like internal combustion engine (ICE) cars, though getting significantly greater MPG.
So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
cmr79
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by cmr79 »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm
cadreamer2015 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:44 pm In practice, both the full and mild hybrids act like internal combustion engine (ICE) cars, though getting significantly greater MPG.
So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
Most electric vehicles, hybrids and full electrics alike, recapture energy via regenerative braking. There are a few hybrid vehicles that use fully electric powertrains but utilize gas engines (or hydrogen fuel cells) as range extenders to recharge the batteries while 'cruising down the road', but in practice these have very limited availability and aren't mainstream options at this time.
FoolStreet
Posts: 1441
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 12:18 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by FoolStreet »

nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:42 pm
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me!

My current thinking is that an all-electric is not the best choice for anyone not living close to a city where charging stations are plentiful, so a hybrid is the sweet spot. Runs on electric, if charged, switches to ICE if not and charges the battery as you go.

Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,

Downside I see is the complexity and extra cost of two complete power systems. I don't know if this is a valid concern. Perhaps the electric technology is not yet competitive with ICE?

So, what am I missing in my thinking/understanding?
Our current lifestyles have, to some extent, evolved on the assumption of cars with 400-mile ranges and 5-minute refueling.

The original hybrids only run off gasoline. There are "plug-in hybrids," which can be charged, I believe usually through house current, not charging stations. They are best thought of as ordinary cars with much-improved fuel efficiency.

The original hybrids were truly "hybrids," a unitary kind of engine, not two engines in one. The battery does not hold enough energy to drive for significant distances, maybe only a mile or so, so there is no point in having the capability to plug in. It is a clever solution to the problem of drivability. Traditional pure internal-combustion engines need to be large to have enough torque for acceleration. This makes them big, and means they are often running at speed and torque combinations that are inefficient. In the original hybrids, the ICE is optimized for efficiency over power, and it only runs at speeds at which it is efficient. The electric motor provides drivability by supplying torque when needed. It doesn't power the car steadily, it lends energy to the small ICE during acceleration, and the ICE pays it back when the car is cruising. It also affords the opportunity of capturing some energy by dynamic braking.

One of the beneficial tradeoffs in the original hybrids is that the battery does not to be excessively large or heavy. Before lithium batteries were ready for prime time, Toyota was able to develop the original Prius using NiMH batteries, not lithium.

Plug-in hybrids are a little awkward, because the battery needs to be bigger, which adds weight and takes up space, while the ICE can't be any smaller. The Prius Prime has a claimed electric range of only 25 miles. So it is only beneficial if a large percentage of the miles are driven on very short trips.

An all-electric car might be annoying for some drivers. In 2017 we were stopped at a campground in Nebraska. A Tesla drove in, and was disappointed to find that the electric service was only 15 amps, and wondered if we knew if there were campsites with 20-amp service. Eventually he shrugged and settled for a 15 amp site. He drove off the next day. I didn't have a chance to ask him, but I assume overnight at 15 amps would only be a partial charge, but probably enough to drive the 50 miles to either Omaha or Kansas City, where probably he could find a fast charger. Still, long camping trips are doable, I guess.
I agree with your initial premise, but the unspoken implication is that our society’s premise is inappropriate. We have an expectation that we need 400m range with 3-5 min refuel. But that can’t be farther than the truth.

Most daily trips are less than 20 miles. Full stop. Drive the kids to school and come home and recharge. Drive to work and charge there. Start the weekend with 300mile range, and even with a longer commute, you just don’t need a long range or a fast charge.

Statistically, we do long road trips 2-3 times per year. A summer road trip. A proverbial sleigh ride to grandmas at thanksgiving or Christmas.

My personal opinion is that for most people it is simply not worth buying a mega yacht style car for this 3 trips each year.

Regardless, Tesla has the biggest c
harging
https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map network,hence it is the North America Standard charging connectors. And any plug anywhere can help charging regardless of automaker. See http://plugshare.com

In the case of the road trip, it is probably as you describe. However, I wonder if the Tesla driver had the RV adapter. According to this article https://rvshare.com/blog/rv-electrical/ a 30amp is in fact RV standard for campgrounds. This means they could have been expecting to charge at 15-22 miles added for every hour plugged in (this is called mph for charging rate… 15-22mph). At 15 amps, this drops to about 4mph. Charging 12 hours overnight gets 48 miles of added range. Vs an expected 12x20=w40miles of range.

For connector configurations, See https://i.pinimg.com/736x/15/10/2e/1510 ... ce8a52.jpg

I like to keep an eye on all the new charging stations being built by the crowd-sourced info here and looking for my state or points of interest along my routes.

https://supercharge.info/changes
Or

https://supercharge.info/map

The above is for super chargers, but all the public non-supercharger locations can be found at

Http://plugshare.com

I hope this post helps OP determine if EVs are a solution for their driving requirements.
CC1E
Posts: 111
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 7:45 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by CC1E »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm
cadreamer2015 wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:44 pm In practice, both the full and mild hybrids act like internal combustion engine (ICE) cars, though getting significantly greater MPG.
So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
There’s generally no reason to charge the battery from the ICE. Doing so involves extra conversion losses before the energy is used to actually move the vehicle. See below.

Powering car from directly from gas: chemical (gas) -> mechanical

Powering car from energy charged in battery by ICE: chemical (gas) -> mechanical -> electrical -> chemical (battery) -> electrical -> mechanical
Chuckles960
Posts: 467
Joined: Thu May 13, 2021 12:09 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Chuckles960 »

hybrid = small/light battery, just used to support the ICE

plug-in hybrid = heavier battery, can go 25-50 miles; must also carry weight of ICE. Can be charged using a regular 120v 15amp outlet

electric: even heavier battery, but no ICE, no catalytic converter, no muffler...overall a much simpler system. Needs high-voltage high-amp charger

There is no fundamental reason one cannot have an electric car that goes 500 or 1000 miles, but the added weight would result in lower mileage so one has diminishing returns(*). The range is determined by how much battery they feel they can tuck into the car without too many compromises. There's also the matter of how much time it takes to charge such a large battery at existing charging stations.

(*)Its a bit like ultra-longhaul nonstop flights, which are less efficient because they burn more fuel to carry the weight of the fuel they will need to burn later in the flight. But at least the time to fill the fuel tanks is not a big deal for these planes.
otinkyad
Posts: 390
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2016 5:35 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by otinkyad »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
You’re getting some absurd nonsensical answers. Every hybrid uses the ICE to charge the battery while the car is cruising down the road. There’s nowhere else for the energy to come from. Regenerative braking helps a little, but entropy would ensure the battery would soon be drained without another source of charging.

The mileage benefits come from a combination of a smaller engine, since it can get a high-torque boost from the motor, and running the engine at a more efficient fuel and RPM combination, including when charging the battery.
newyorker
Posts: 1535
Joined: Sun May 17, 2020 7:59 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by newyorker »

Ioniq 5 looks very promising and arguably better design than japanese cars or tesla.
RobLyons
Posts: 1654
Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:55 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by RobLyons »

happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

To me, a hybrid or plug in hybrid is superior to an EV due to
1.) MSRP
2.) Equipment needed to home charge
3.) Amount of time needed to charge up vs fuel up
4.) Maintenance is not as big a problem as EV enthusiasts lead you to believe

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want.

2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive.

3.) Fueling up an ICE is less than 5 minutes, once every two - 3 weeks. Charging an EV is daily. I dread the range anxiety. I see how much we charge our cell phones. We hate going below 50%. Now my car will add to that anxiety.

4.) My only maintenance for my hybrid is twice a year oil changes that I pay $20 each, then wipers, filters, tire rotations and brakes just like an EV. First 2 years of maintenance is free from Toyota.
"Great parenting sets the foundation for a better world"
Valuethinker
Posts: 45910
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Valuethinker »

RobLyons wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:10 am
happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

To me, a hybrid or plug in hybrid is superior to an EV due to
1.) MSRP
2.) Equipment needed to home charge
3.) Amount of time needed to charge up vs fuel up
4.) Maintenance is not as big a problem as EV enthusiasts lead you to believe

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want.

2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive.

3.) Fueling up an ICE is less than 5 minutes, once every two - 3 weeks. Charging an EV is daily. I dread the range anxiety. I see how much we charge our cell phones. We hate going below 50%. Now my car will add to that anxiety.

4.) My only maintenance for my hybrid is twice a year oil changes that I pay $20 each, then wipers, filters, tire rotations and brakes just like an EV. First 2 years of maintenance is free from Toyota.
User avatar
happyisland
Posts: 781
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 1:36 pm
Location: nos baranca tan stima

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by happyisland »

RobLyons wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:10 am
happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

To me, a hybrid or plug in hybrid is superior to an EV due to
1.) MSRP
2.) Equipment needed to home charge
3.) Amount of time needed to charge up vs fuel up
4.) Maintenance is not as big a problem as EV enthusiasts lead you to believe

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want.

2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive.

3.) Fueling up an ICE is less than 5 minutes, once every two - 3 weeks. Charging an EV is daily. I dread the range anxiety. I see how much we charge our cell phones. We hate going below 50%. Now my car will add to that anxiety.

4.) My only maintenance for my hybrid is twice a year oil changes that I pay $20 each, then wipers, filters, tire rotations and brakes just like an EV. First 2 years of maintenance is free from Toyota.
I hear you that the EVs are pricier (although a used Leaf looks like pretty good value for money). But I guess I'm an 'EV enthusiast', since I definitely find the cost-benefit of an EV versus an ICE vehicle to be compelling.
Refueling: strong win for the EV, since I will just plug the car in at home. With an ICE I have to monitor fuel levels and periodically go to a gas station - an extra chore.
Maintenance: another strong win for the EV, since I won't have to deal with oil changes, etc. Also, in the long run, given the comparative mechanical simplicity of the EV, there should be far less time spent with the car in the shop.
Range anxiety: this isn't an issue for me, since I never drive more than 200 miles in a single day. The funny thing is, since I hate going to the gas station, I frequently experience range anxiety with my current ICE vehicle, since I let it get almost totally empty before I re-fuel.

So it sounds like we're coming at this from different angles, but different strokes, right? :sharebeer
MH2
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 2021 3:46 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by MH2 »

bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,
You're looking for a PHEV (plug in hybrid vehicle, as others have mentioned).

You can find a list here: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/g ... -vehicles/

I'm not a fan of PHEVs over ICE, mild hybrids, or all-EVs. The sweet spot for hybrids is engine + torque boost, which gives you efficiency (Prius) or performance (BMW 3 & 5 Series) without a lot of maintenance hassle.

PHEVs are essentially short-range EVs attached to a traditional ICE platform. You get extra weight and complexity, along with poorer performance and less storage space. They're good if you drive short distances, live in a country with high fuel prices, and have a home charging setup.

Otherwise, stick to an ICE/mild-hybrid or go all in and buy an EV.
zlandar
Posts: 442
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:51 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by zlandar »

PHEV- the worst of both worlds. You get a small EV range while being saddled with the maintenance of an ICE. When you run out of power you are dragging around a significantly heavier battery than a typical hybrid on a gas engine. You have to constantly plug in the PHEV because of the small battery capacity. Double the things that can go wrong.

I would either go hybrid or EV. Hybrid cars will still work if the battery goes out at reduced efficiency/power.
User avatar
Topic Author
bertilak
Posts: 9761
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 5:23 pm
Location: East of the Pecos, West of the Mississippi

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by bertilak »

MH2 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:20 am
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,
You're looking for a PHEV (plug in hybrid vehicle, as others have mentioned).
Not looking for but asking about. The point of my post was to learn about electric cars: what different kinds are there, what use scenarios are each of the types aimed at, etc.. It seems that a PHEV is probably NOT what would suit me best. Perhaps I would do best with a "mild hybrid."

I am getting the impression that the EV world is still in flux and perhaps not ready to replace ICE just yet. If I was really interested in the technology, it might be fun to dive in to see how it goes. I am more interested in a car where comfort and convenience are the main criteria. A little extra performance contributes to but if those.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
quantAndHold
Posts: 7935
Joined: Thu Sep 17, 2015 10:39 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by quantAndHold »

One of the foundational videos I think anyone interested in EVs should watch is this: https://youtu.be/Iyp_X3mwE1w, where he goes through the basics of electric car charging. The same guy also has an interesting video where he takes his electric Hyundai on a trip from, IIRC, Chicago to Atlanta and back, to see how using public chargers works on a road trip.

After watching that linked video, I realized that an older Leaf or something like that with a 70 or 80 mile range would probably work very well and be very cost effective for our household. 99% of our driving days are shorter than that, and even if we have a long day or want to take a road trip, we have a second car that we could use.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
neilpilot
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:04 am
RobLyons wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:10 am
happyisland wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:35 pm Two reasons why I am looking forward to replacing my aging ICE vehicles with all-electrics is the lack of maintenance issues (oil changes, etc) and never having to stop at a gas station again. So to me an EV is strongly preferable to a hybrid.

To me, a hybrid or plug in hybrid is superior to an EV due to
1.) MSRP
2.) Equipment needed to home charge
3.) Amount of time needed to charge up vs fuel up
4.) Maintenance is not as big a problem as EV enthusiasts lead you to believe

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want. I purchased my ID.4 for $44.5k (MSRP) + $4k tax/fees - $7.5k rebate = $41k. Not $24k, but a bit less than $66k and certainly not a Bolt or a Prius.

2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive. Every situation is different. I installed a L2 charger for $380 total; wiring was $80 and EVSE $300. Even though I could easily have stayed with the L1 that came with my car if I charged daily (see #3, below). My electricity was $0.10/kwh, but has gone up by about 30% lately. Figure it's equivalent to about a third of the cost of gas at $3.50/gal.

3.) Fueling up an ICE is less than 5 minutes, once every two - 3 weeks. Charging an EV is daily. I dread the range anxiety. I see how much we charge our cell phones. We hate going below 50%. Now my car will add to that anxiety. Charging an EV is daily?? I drive only about 6k miles yearly, almost all locally. I top off my EV overnight every 7-10 days, so it takes way less than 5 minutes of my time. No anxiety here, and no fuel stops. It's typically still about a third to a half full when I "top off", but I do it more often since I'm at home and it's so easy.


4.) My only maintenance for my hybrid is twice a year oil changes that I pay $20 each, then wipers, filters, tire rotations and brakes just like an EV. First 2 years of maintenance is free from Toyota. About the same as my EV, except no rotations and only a single cabin filter. Since much of the braking is regenerative, I expect brake maintenance to be much less than my ICE.
See my comments above, in RED, for another take, based on my EV purchased in May 2021.
MGBMartin
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:09 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by MGBMartin »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:29 am One of the foundational videos I think anyone interested in EVs should watch is this: https://youtu.be/Iyp_X3mwE1w, where he goes through the basics of electric car charging. The same guy also has an interesting video where he takes his electric Hyundai on a trip from, IIRC, Chicago to Atlanta and back, to see how using public chargers works on a road trip.

After watching that linked video, I realized that an older Leaf or something like that with a 70 or 80 mile range would probably work very well and be very cost effective for our household. 99% of our driving days are shorter than that, and even if we have a long day or want to take a road trip, we have a second car that we could use.
2 years ago we bought a 2017 Kia Soul EV for not much money.
We bought it primarily as a run around as we don’t drive much. Using it for daily trips to the park, weekly trips to the grocery store and occasional trips to the airport has put about 3,000 miles on it since we bought it. It has been perfect for that despite its 93 mile range from new. We charge it from 110 and sometimes we go 3-4 weeks between charges.
We see a lot of folks have gotten electric golf carts in our neighborhood recently including some friends of ours. They told us how much they paid for their golf cart which was about the same as our Soul EV which has a panoramic sunroof, cooled seats, navigation and lots of other stuff.
We also have an ICE car, 2 in fact, which we don’t use very often. When driving our ICE now car after driving an EV I just can’t help feeling there’s a whole lot of moving parts just waiting to break.

I’m just waiting for the market to settle down and availability to improve then I’ll upgrade to one of the current crop of EVs; no more gas cars for me.
Bad spellers of the world untie | Autocorrect is my worst enema
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 14683
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bertilak wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:06 am
I am getting the impression that the EV world is still in flux and perhaps not ready to replace ICE just yet. If I was really interested in the technology, it might be fun to dive in to see how it goes. I am more interested in a car where comfort and convenience are the main criteria. A little extra performance contributes to but if those.
Imagine if EVs were ubiquitous and ICEs were just being introduced. There’d be BH posts about internal combustion engines not being ready for prime time.

I hear there are thieves who steal catalytic converters, which are some new fangled thing whose purpose I don’t understand, but I hear they’re really expensive when you have to replace them.
They have multiple tubes in back where smelly fumes come out.
They need something called a transmission, which deals with the problem that their RPM range is limited and they only produce power in a limited range.
They sure are slow to accelerate for getting on the highway and overtaking. This might be a safety issue.
There’s a really inconvenient hump down the longitudinal axis of the car.
There is no frunk.
It’s so top heavy it can easily tip over.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
stoptothink
Posts: 12523
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by stoptothink »

Normchad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:31 pm
jabberwockOG wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:26 pm Millions of people don't have a garage, or live in apartments/condos and have to park their cars out in the street. It's going to be a long time before everyone can easily charge their EV car "at home". Hybrids make way more sense unless you have a place to easily charge your EV car at home when you are not using it.
Correct. As a very happy EV owner, I would never recommend one to somebody who can’t charge at home.

All of my charging is done at home, save 4-5 times a year when I’m on a trip.
I believe ~70% of families across the country live in single family homes, and it is less in larger metro areas. Condo/apartment/townhome living is also rapidly increasing. They are building hundreds of apartments and condos within ~2 miles of my home right now, but not one SFH home (as far as I have seen), and I hardly live in a large metro area. I have a garage, but I'm an outlier in my area and my employer (by far the largest in the area) has 6 EV chargers (for 6,000+ employees). I'm unlikely to buy another ICE vehicle (a plug-in hybrid as our primary commuter is probably next), but it isn't really an option for most people in my area until availability of public charging increases. This discussion is very dependent on your specific situation.
sycamore
Posts: 5021
Joined: Tue May 08, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by sycamore »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:14 am Imagine if EVs were ubiquitous and ICEs were just being introduced.
...
There’s a really inconvenient hump down the longitudinal axis of the car.
That's a feature. I mean, how else will kids build character if not by sitting on the hump for long stretches of time?
delamer
Posts: 15148
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:13 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by delamer »

bertilak wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:06 am
MH2 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 8:20 am
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 5:38 pm Can hybrids both self-charge and use charging stations?

What if you don't live in/near a city or expect to drive long distances to remote destinations, for example to national parks, US or otherwise,
You're looking for a PHEV (plug in hybrid vehicle, as others have mentioned).
Not looking for but asking about. The point of my post was to learn about electric cars: what different kinds are there, what use scenarios are each of the types aimed at, etc.. It seems that a PHEV is probably NOT what would suit me best. Perhaps I would do best with a "mild hybrid."

I am getting the impression that the EV world is still in flux and perhaps not ready to replace ICE just yet. If I was really interested in the technology, it might be fun to dive in to see how it goes. I am more interested in a car where comfort and convenience are the main criteria. A little extra performance contributes to but if those.
Maybe I’m attributing our motives to a larger chunk of the population than I should, but I assume that reducing carbon emissions is a significant motivator for EV and hybrid owners.

We were a bit nervous about spending a large amount of money for a relatively new technology, but decided the rewards outweighed the risks. The 8 year battery warranty helped too.

We aren’t there yet, but as we age into our late 70’s+ I’d bet that we won’t be doing any driving that will exceed a couple hundred miles roundtrip. At that point, owning only EVs will be practical.

Right now, we aren’t keen on renting for longer trips so we’ll keep an ICE vehicle.
One thing that humbles me deeply is to see that human genius has its limits while human stupidity does not. - Alexandre Dumas, fils
02nz
Posts: 8758
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 02nz »

bertilak wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:06 am I am getting the impression that the EV world is still in flux and perhaps not ready to replace ICE just yet. If I was really interested in the technology, it might be fun to dive in to see how it goes. I am more interested in a car where comfort and convenience are the main criteria. A little extra performance contributes to but if those.
The EV world isn't really in any more flux than the rest of the industry. The technology is already very mature. There will be more choices in the coming years, but they won't be different in any fundamental way than what's on the market now.

As for comfort, convenience, and performance, EV handily beats ICE vehicles in all of those unless you frequently take road trips that exceed the EV's range.
Luke Duke
Posts: 1240
Joined: Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:44 am
Location: Texas

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Luke Duke »

FoolStreet wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 7:49 pm
nisiprius wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:42 pm An all-electric car might be annoying for some drivers. In 2017 we were stopped at a campground in Nebraska. A Tesla drove in, and was disappointed to find that the electric service was only 15 amps, and wondered if we knew if there were campsites with 20-amp service. Eventually he shrugged and settled for a 15 amp site. He drove off the next day. I didn't have a chance to ask him, but I assume overnight at 15 amps would only be a partial charge, but probably enough to drive the 50 miles to either Omaha or Kansas City, where probably he could find a fast charger. Still, long camping trips are doable, I guess.
I agree with your initial premise, but the unspoken implication is that our society’s premise is inappropriate. We have an expectation that we need 400m range with 3-5 min refuel. But that can’t be farther than the truth.


In the case of the road trip, it is probably as you describe. However, I wonder if the Tesla driver had the RV adapter. According to this article https://rvshare.com/blog/rv-electrical/ a 30amp is in fact RV standard for campgrounds. This means they could have been expecting to charge at 15-22 miles added for every hour plugged in (this is called mph for charging rate… 15-22mph). At 15 amps, this drops to about 4mph. Charging 12 hours overnight gets 48 miles of added range. Vs an expected 12x20=w40miles of range.
The bolded part is not correct. A 30A RV outlet is 120V. With proper adapters, the charging rate would be 2x that of a 15A/120V outlet, not 4x the rate that a 30A/240V would provide.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 15856
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

02nz wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:43 pm The electric technology is simple, mature, and highly efficient. I can't think of a single way in which ICE is competitive, other than cost and speed of refilling on road trips - and even the latter is getting better for EVs, with some vehicles able to get most of a charge in under 20 minutes.
Cost

There are some of us where electricity is already expensive and going way up. My last bill showed 33 cents a kWh and it's been announced that our rates are going up 60%. I have heard that California, which is already very electricity limited is also going up. For me, I'm in New England where electricity is mostly generated by natural gas plants. Natural gas pipelines are strangled and the companies have been facing neighborhood style opposition for years to adding pipes to existing lines. Half of my cost is generation, so I assume that's the part that's going up 60%, so expect the new rate to be 43 cents a kWh.

So doing the math, my 35 mpg manual Crosstrek cost me $22k new in 2019.
What EV can I buy for $22k or today's MSRP of my Crosstrek which would be $27k.

I have been getting gas discounts through my local supermarket. I've got many 20 gallon fill up worth of point discounts of $1.55 per gallon at the moment. Gas has been going up, but with the discount, it's $2.45 per gallon.

I'm seeing the model 3 rwd single motor consuming 25 kWh per 100 miles (0.25 kWh/mile)
https://insideevs.com/news/556299/2022- ... epa-range/

So let's do the math.

For my Crosstrek, $2.45/g /35mi/g= 7 cents a mile
If no discount, $4/g /35mi/g = 11.4 cents a mile

For a single motor M3 costing $47k, $0.43/kWh *0.25kWh/mi = 10.75 cents a mile

So for those who won't play the supermarket gas points game, the M3 is slightly cheaper per mile (in my neighborhood). How long would it take if you were buying a new car, skipping all the taxes and nonsense. $47k-$27k= $20k. At 11.4-10.75=0.65 cents savings per mile, you'd need to drive $20k/0.65 cents or 3,076,923 miles to break even. At 10k miles a year, this would take 307 years.

For those who take advantage of the discounts, the ICE car is cheaper per mile. For people getting electric for 4 cents a kWh, why are you not driving an EV already? Same question if you have solar panels.

Costs constantly change, so its worth doing calculations often. Personally, I'm considering buying a new car and as of today, it is going to be a Cadillac CT4-V which is an AWD ICE car with a twin turbo 2.7L 4 cylinder. Black on black with no extra options for about $50k.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
neilpilot
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:38 am
02nz wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:43 pm The electric technology is simple, mature, and highly efficient. I can't think of a single way in which ICE is competitive, other than cost and speed of refilling on road trips - and even the latter is getting better for EVs, with some vehicles able to get most of a charge in under 20 minutes.
Cost
MGBMartin
Posts: 556
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2021 11:09 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by MGBMartin »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:14 am
bertilak wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:06 am
I am getting the impression that the EV world is still in flux and perhaps not ready to replace ICE just yet. If I was really interested in the technology, it might be fun to dive in to see how it goes. I am more interested in a car where comfort and convenience are the main criteria. A little extra performance contributes to but if those.
Imagine if EVs were ubiquitous and ICEs were just being introduced. There’d be BH posts about internal combustion engines not being ready for prime time.

I hear there are thieves who steal catalytic converters, which are some new fangled thing whose purpose I don’t understand, but I hear they’re really expensive when you have to replace them.
They have multiple tubes in back where smelly fumes come out.
They need something called a transmission, which deals with the problem that their RPM range is limited and they only produce power in a limited range.
They sure are slow to accelerate for getting on the highway and overtaking. This might be a safety issue.
There’s a really inconvenient hump down the longitudinal axis of the car.
There is no frunk.
It’s so top heavy it can easily tip over.
Those tubes in the back where smelly fumes come out
My ICE car has a thing called Prem Air that helps reduce the pollution from those smelly fumes but not from my car but the car in front of me at the traffic light. When something went wrong with that system it was $800 just to replace the sensor; fortunately it corrected itself after a bit of use.
Bad spellers of the world untie | Autocorrect is my worst enema
User avatar
warner25
Posts: 691
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:38 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by warner25 »

otinkyad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 pm
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
You’re getting some absurd nonsensical answers. Every hybrid uses the ICE to charge the battery while the car is cruising down the road. There’s nowhere else for the energy to come from. Regenerative braking helps a little, but entropy would ensure the battery would soon be drained without another source of charging.
Yes, this makes sense. I was also going to say that my Gen 2 Prius works hard to keep the traction battery at some ideal state of charge, usually two bars below the top of the battery image on the power management screen, in the blue range. The ICE kicks in quickly to do this. I assume this is for longevity of the battery (almost 15 years and 150,000 miles so far on mine with no issues).
otinkyad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 pm The mileage benefits come from a combination of a smaller engine, since it can get a high-torque boost from the motor, and running the engine at a more efficient fuel and RPM combination, including when charging the battery.
I remember reading once that you could probably take away all the hybrid components and get 40+ MPG in a Gen 2 Prius just because of the small, efficient ICE, aerodynamics, and low rolling resistance tires. I don't know how true that is, but it makes sense to me, because it's basically a regular ICE car on long interstate highway drives and gets a steady 45-50 MPG.
zlandar wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:57 am PHEV- the worst of both worlds. You get a small EV range while being saddled with the maintenance of an ICE.
This is a good point. I don't drive much anymore, so I'm already annoyed by the fact I'm changing the oil in my Prius every six months after just 2,000-3,000 miles. If I had a Prius Prime, all my trips would use battery alone, and I assume that I'd still need to change the oil.
RobLyons wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:10 am ...EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average.
I've always assumed that the Tesla is a sports car, status symbol, etc. as opposed to an economical choice. So comparing the "average" EV to a Prius doesn't make much sense to me; it's like when people used to compare the mid-size Prius to the smallest, cheapest subcompact ICE cars. The LEAF does look competitive, starting at $28k vs. $25k for the Prius. Although now you can get smaller, cheaper hybrids too like the hybrid Corolla starting at $22k.
MathWizard
Posts: 5737
Joined: Tue Jul 26, 2011 1:35 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by MathWizard »

otinkyad wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 11:30 pm
bertilak wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:55 pm So, no charging occurs while simply cruising down the road on ICE power?
You’re getting some absurd nonsensical answers. Every hybrid uses the ICE to charge the battery while the car is cruising down the road. There’s nowhere else for the energy to come from. Regenerative braking helps a little, but entropy would ensure the battery would soon be drained without another source of charging.

The mileage benefits come from a combination of a smaller engine, since it can get a high-torque boost from the motor, and running the engine at a more efficient fuel and RPM combination, including when charging the battery.
In addition, the hybrid engine will use the Atkinson cycle rather than the Otto cycle.

The Otto cycle is used for gasoline only cars, because it provides more power for the size of the engine.

The Atkinson cycles allows for higher fuel efficiency for a loss of power, mainly torque at low engine speed . Since electric motors have the highest torque at low speeds, marrying the two together creates an efficient powerplant with no expense of power .
GibsonL6s
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by GibsonL6s »

For what it is worth, when I bought my car which was a Prius LE, my decision was made for the great mileage and a completely different reason. Most hybrids and EVs do not come with a spare tire and AAA does not fix tires, they only mount a spare you have with you. The LE is the only Prius hybrid that has at least a donut spare. I have gone on many long drives and the combination of the donut spare with the over 500 mile range with a 9 gallon tank has been fantastic. I would consider a pure EV for around town and commuting as long as the range was 200 miles or over as I would not want to charge at work where you have to move your car after it is charged. I agree the PHEV does not seem like the best choice unless you are a one car family that occasionally does long trips.
02nz
Posts: 8758
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by 02nz »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 11:38 am
02nz wrote: Sun Nov 20, 2022 6:43 pm The electric technology is simple, mature, and highly efficient. I can't think of a single way in which ICE is competitive, other than cost and speed of refilling on road trips - and even the latter is getting better for EVs, with some vehicles able to get most of a charge in under 20 minutes.
Cost

There are some of us where electricity is already expensive and going way up. My last bill showed 33 cents a kWh and it's been announced that our rates are going up 60%. I have heard that California, which is already very electricity limited is also going up. For me, I'm in New England where electricity is mostly generated by natural gas plants. Natural gas pipelines are strangled and the companies have been facing neighborhood style opposition for years to adding pipes to existing lines. Half of my cost is generation, so I assume that's the part that's going up 60%, so expect the new rate to be 43 cents a kWh.

So doing the math, my 35 mpg manual Crosstrek cost me $22k new in 2019.
What EV can I buy for $22k or today's MSRP of my Crosstrek which would be $27k.

I have been getting gas discounts through my local supermarket. I've got many 20 gallon fill up worth of point discounts of $1.55 per gallon at the moment. Gas has been going up, but with the discount, it's $2.45 per gallon.

I'm seeing the model 3 rwd single motor consuming 25 kWh per 100 miles (0.25 kWh/mile)
https://insideevs.com/news/556299/2022- ... epa-range/

So let's do the math.

For my Crosstrek, $2.45/g /35mi/g= 7 cents a mile
If no discount, $4/g /35mi/g = 11.4 cents a mile

For a single motor M3 costing $47k, $0.43/kWh *0.25kWh/mi = 10.75 cents a mile

So for those who won't play the supermarket gas points game, the M3 is slightly cheaper per mile (in my neighborhood). How long would it take if you were buying a new car, skipping all the taxes and nonsense. $47k-$27k= $20k. At 11.4-10.75=0.65 cents savings per mile, you'd need to drive $20k/0.65 cents or 3,076,923 miles to break even. At 10k miles a year, this would take 307 years.

For those who take advantage of the discounts, the ICE car is cheaper per mile. For people getting electric for 4 cents a kWh, why are you not driving an EV already? Same question if you have solar panels.

Costs constantly change, so its worth doing calculations often. Personally, I'm considering buying a new car and as of today, it is going to be a Cadillac CT4-V which is an AWD ICE car with a twin turbo 2.7L 4 cylinder. Black on black with no extra options for about $50k.
Talking about stacking the deck - you're comparing gas prices that requires jumping certain hoops and shopping at a particular grocery store, with electricity prices that you made up based on conjecture.

I can stack the deck, too. By visiting certain stores, I can charge for free (Volta). I do in fact, and probably about 50% of my use is covered by this free charging.

"I have heard that in California..." Well I'm actually in California (LA area), and the most that I pay to charge my EVs is 22-23 cents per KWHr (time of e rates, this is what I pay except for between 4-9 pm; the EV is set to charge outside those peak hours), about half of your made-up figure. Meanwhile, gasoline averages over $5/gallon here.

Now of course costs vary and everybody should do their math, but I suggest they use real not pretend numbers.

As for what EV you can get for $27K - there's the Chevy Bolt, priced right at that mark, new.
Last edited by 02nz on Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
neilpilot
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

GibsonL6s wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:11 pm For what it is worth, when I bought my car which was a Prius LE, my decision was made for the great mileage and a completely different reason. Most hybrids and EVs do not come with a spare tire and AAA does not fix tires, they only mount a spare you have with you. The LE is the only Prius hybrid that has at least a donut spare. I have gone on many long drives and the combination of the donut spare with the over 500 mile range with a 9 gallon tank has been fantastic. I would consider a pure EV for around town and commuting as long as the range was 200 miles or over as I would not want to charge at work where you have to move your car after it is charged. I agree the PHEV does not seem like the best choice unless you are a one car family that occasionally does long trips.
Neither of our cars came with a spare tire. In both cases, I purchased a used spare of the appropriate size on eBay for $125-$150 shortly after I bought the car. The spare fits in an existing wheel we in each trunk.

I already had a jack and other required tools to DIY a tire change, but AAA would use their own anyway.
trinc
Posts: 127
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:09 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by trinc »

I didn't see in any responses the issues being in the northern part of the country, lower battery efficiency & greater drain with heater load.

Tim
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 14683
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by TomatoTomahto »

trinc wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:27 pm I didn't see in any responses the issues being in the northern part of the country, lower battery efficiency & greater drain with heater load.

Tim
If Boston is “northern,” there is greater heater load in my 6 year old Tesla. Newer Teslas have heat pumps. Not that it often matters, but on the rare occasion where I’m trying to stretch efficiency on a cold day, I heat the steering wheel and my seat and let the cabin be cold.

Conversely, EVs do a great job in keeping cars cool much more efficiently than ICE vehicles.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
neilpilot
Posts: 4432
Joined: Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:46 pm
Location: Memphis area

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by neilpilot »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:32 pm
trinc wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:27 pm I didn't see in any responses the issues being in the northern part of the country, lower battery efficiency & greater drain with heater load.

Tim
If Boston is “northern,” there is greater heater load in my 6 year old Tesla. Newer Teslas have heat pumps. Not that it often matters, but on the rare occasion where I’m trying to stretch efficiency on a cold day, I heat the steering wheel and my seat and let the cabin be cold.

Conversely, EVs do a great job in keeping cars cool much more efficiently than ICE vehicles.
Similar to my experience, although I live in less-frigid TN and drive a VW EV without a heat pump.

What I really love is the ability to open a VW phone app and pre-condition the inside temperature of my ID.4 a few minutes before I get in, both in cold or hot weather. Sure it uses energy, but not enough to matter. I'd never do this routinely in my ICE, even if it didn't require me to run the engine in my closed garage.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 15856
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

02nz wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:21 pm
Talking about stacking the deck - you're comparing gas prices that requires jumping certain hoops and shopping at a particular grocery store, with electricity prices that you made up based on conjecture.

I can stack the deck, too. By visiting certain stores, I can charge for free (Volta). I do in fact, and probably about 50% of my use is covered by this free charging.

"I have heard that in California..." Well I'm actually in California (LA area), and the most that I pay to charge my EVs is 22-23 cents per KWHr (time of e rates, this is what I pay except for between 4-9 pm; the EV is set to charge outside those peak hours), about half of your made-up figure. Meanwhile, gasoline averages over $5/gallon here.

Now of course costs vary and everybody should do their math, but I suggest they use real not pretend numbers.

As for what EV you can get for $27K - there's the Chevy Bolt, priced right at that mark, new.
Because everyone has their own costs and potentially "scams" to get discounts, I included the math. That is my biggest point because I have heard so many people just assume that buying a $55k Kia EV6 (what the one I test drove costs) would somehow save them money. If I could go to a grocery store and get free charging in my Chevy Bolt, you bet I'd do that. I did the math a couple ways but didn't do it for present day electric rate for me (I used the 60% increase Eversource has told me is coming) but did do it for no grocery store discounts. This wasn't because these are all the possible calculations, it's to show that for some of us, an electric vehicle may not save money. Do your own calculations. I showed the math. Substitute your EV kWh/mile and cost per kWh and the ICE car MPG you'd consider buying and cost per gallon of gas. Easy, peasy.

I don't get why you call my electric rate "made up". My electric bill last week was $0.33 per kWh. Eversource said the rate is going up 60%. This is all over the news. I heard it many times on WBZ radio. I upped my rate by 30% since half my rate is electric generation and the other half is transmission, and about 10 other charges that I have no idea what they do. I didn't up the 33 cents by 60%. If you're on a cool "only use electricity during these times for a discount", then it sounds like a good fit for you. And free at the supermarket? That's double super cool. I have yet to see a charger at any supermarket anywhere near me. There is one next to "the Spoon" restaurant here in Hopkinton, but I've noted that the police always park their cruiser there, so not sure how anyone would use it.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
Valuethinker
Posts: 45910
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Valuethinker »

neilpilot wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 10:54 am

1.) EVs are still much more expensive than ICE or hybrids/plug in hybrids. My Prius was $24k brand new. (Now they are $27-$33k). EVs are $66k on average. Cheaper if you want a bolt, which I absolutely do not want. I purchased my ID.4 for $44.5k (MSRP) + $4k tax/fees - $7.5k rebate = $41k. Not $24k, but a bit less than $66k and certainly not a Bolt or a Prius.
2.) I just had solar installed ($28k) and still need to hire an electrician for about $800 - $1,000 to install the car charging port. Of course, you don't NEED solar, or fast charger but then you are trickle charging off electricity, which takes forever and is just as expensive as gas, if not more expensive. Every situation is different. I installed a L2 charger for $380 total; wiring was $80 and EVSE $300. Even though I could easily have stayed with the L1 that came with my car if I charged daily (see #3, below). My electricity was $0.10/kwh, but has gone up by about 30% lately. Figure it's equivalent to about a third of the cost of gas at $3.50/gal.
Oh to pay $3.50/ gallon for gas (OK, it's a mini-gallon, not a proper, Imperial, one ;-)). Just ohhh... Google tells me I am paying $8.04 per US gallon (but I don't drive much).

We have 65 million people and 32 million cars on the road (+ trucks/ lorries) in a country that is c the size of New England (700 miles long and maybe 200 miles wide?). High cost of fuel doesn't seem to dissuade driving, much.

I really don't think $1000, the cost of a very minor option on a car, is either here nor there in the calculation of whether to own an EV.

There *is* an issue about up front affordability of EVs. The lower operating costs take quite a long time to reach breakeven, I believe. This is a barrier to adoption by lower income families, or anyone who is credit constrained (probably the majority of Americans). However EVs are relatively early in their life cycle as a consumer product: they will get steadily better and cheaper*.

* there will be constraints on the supplies of metals, which will cause inflation at times in the prices. Over time, battery makers will get better at managing those issues - better technology, relationships with mineral producers etc.
GibsonL6s
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:17 pm

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by GibsonL6s »

neilpilot wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:22 pm
GibsonL6s wrote: Mon Nov 21, 2022 12:11 pm For what it is worth, when I bought my car which was a Prius LE, my decision was made for the great mileage and a completely different reason. Most hybrids and EVs do not come with a spare tire and AAA does not fix tires, they only mount a spare you have with you. The LE is the only Prius hybrid that has at least a donut spare. I have gone on many long drives and the combination of the donut spare with the over 500 mile range with a 9 gallon tank has been fantastic. I would consider a pure EV for around town and commuting as long as the range was 200 miles or over as I would not want to charge at work where you have to move your car after it is charged. I agree the PHEV does not seem like the best choice unless you are a one car family that occasionally does long trips.
Neither of our cars came with a spare tire. In both cases, I purchased a used spare of the appropriate size on eBay for $125-$150 shortly after I bought the car. The spare fits in an existing wheel we in each trunk.

I already had a jack and other required tools to DIY a tire change, but AAA would use their own anyway.
Agree, thanks. The issue on some of the other new cars is that the space may not be available for a spare, it could have batteries there. In these cases, you loose a lot of space hauling a spare around.
Ricola
Posts: 827
Joined: Sat Apr 26, 2008 10:38 am

Re: All-electric vs. hybrid cars. Teach me! [Car with tech bells and whistles that’s not a Tesla]

Post by Ricola »

Electrics have too many negatives for me at this time; increased cost to purchase, convenience to service, parts cost and availability, quality of workmanship, lack of range in all driving conditions (heat and cold), convenience and time to re-charge, the cost to replace the battery ($$$), charging costs predicted to go up with increased demand and taxes, insurance cost, excess tire costs and rough ride due to heavy batteries, and EV fires - spontaneous combustion (don't park in your garage). :shock:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQxY2s-oIak
Locked