Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

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Nvielbig
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Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Nvielbig »

Something I have been curious about is the "true" savings that the average buyer sees by going with a Hybrid or EV, over a gas car. I know that there are federal tax credits for efficient cars, which I think have been eliminated for a lot of brands/in certain states. Plus it would vary how much you drive per day, where you are located i.e. price of gas vs electricity, etc. But, is there any data that tries to get to the bottom of this? I have wondered how much you actually save by going with a hybrid or EV car over a similar gasoline car.

Other things like, the higher MSRP price of a hybrid/EV versus its gas "equivalent", maintenance costs of gas vehicle versus hybrid/EV. Reliability of a gas vs hybrid/EV. I know I'm just kind of rambling, just a topic I've been curious on learning slightly about.
Last edited by Nvielbig on Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:39 am, edited 3 times in total.
Hillview
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Hillview »

It really depends on a number of things. In my case I have an EV, I don’t drive a lot (about 10k miles a year). I would pay about 6k a year in gas (based on current gas prices where I live) if I didn’t get the EV I have and looking at what I would have gotten instead. I don’t pay for charging (do it at work). So it saves me about 6k a year. If I charged at home it would just over 5k a year in savings but my house already has solar. Depending on tax credits it might be more. So I think you really have to look at what your situation is
- what EV would you get
- what gas car would you get
- how much do you drive
- what is charging going to cost you? What will gas cost you?
- what are the incentives if any for the EV you are looking at
- do you have solar/electric charging at home or at work
- if you drive a lot far distance EV is less appealing to ME as it would required I stop a lot to charge (potentially)

YMMV :sharebeer
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

You absolutely need to first learn the credits from the federal and state governments. How is applied? Personally, if I am to buy an EV and get the federal tax credit, I'd have to do it this year as I plan to retire early next year. If you "get" the $7500 federal tax credit and don't have $7500 in federal tax liability, you will not get all of it. Say your full federal tax is $2800. Well, you get $2800. And of course, several makers have passed the number of vehicles to qualify. GM and Tesla, you get zero.

Next is state. Not only what you get, but requirements to get it. In my state (MA), a $2500 tax credit is available for any EV, including Tesla and GM....IF the sales price is under $50k. So that EV6 I looked at with an MSRP of $54k, even if they removed the added markup would not meet it.

Next is to figure out what your cost is or would be. If you really need to buy a vehicle anyways, this is apples to apples. What's the car cost, out the door (so taxes, registration, everything)? Then what is the mpg for a new gas car? What is present gas cost per gallon? What is the miles per kWHr for electric? What is your actual full price per kWHr? I ask that way because looking at my own bill, the price of electricity is about double what generation costs.

From these numbers, you can calculate cost per mile. Using the cost of the car and cost per mile, you can figure out how many miles you can go to the equal point, assuming electric is cheaper than gas. I said that last thing because I use a gas program where my gas price is always discounted on average $1 per gallon.

Absolutely do NOT take the savings in the Tesla site as appropriate for you. I have done the math, assuming I'd buy the exact car I now have (Subaru Crosstrek Premium manual at 30 mpg). I put in all my numbers. I compared it to a Tesla Model 3 single motor (to get the $2500 state credit). For me, I'd have to drive 250,000 before the electric cost less than my gas Crosstrek. Of course if you're driving an STi that gets 21 mpg and requires premium gas, the time is shorter. If a Honda Fit, the miles are even more. And instead of the $47k Model 3 single motor, you get a $60k Kia EV6 Wind, you will never spend less.

The added wild card here is that gas is going down like a Russian rocket about to blow up it's launcher because the guidance system was installed in 1973 and is all corroded. Every day, I see significant drops. This makes the EV change (financially) less appealing.

Now, if you like the way an EV accelerates, then that's fine. I'm personally comparing a Cadillac Ct4-V Blackwing ($70k area) to what I drove last Saturday, an Audi e-Tron GT (EV sedan, essentially a Porsche Taycan on a sedan body) at $117k. Both have excitement generating acceleration, great luxury (for me....I drive a Crosstrek so even a Camry would be this) and cost more than 3 times what my present vehicle cost me new.

In short......do the math. I did the math. I've decided that for the moment, I have no need for an EV and will simply keep all of my cars.

Now, you also talked about hybrids and I casually looked at them. I'm an offroader and also have a 14 Wrangler 4 door, mildly modified to go with my offroad club on private land. I've considered a Jeep Wrangler hybrid. TFL did a good youtube video showing it running full electric on a medium difficulty trail, so I know it's fine for that and of course when the battery is empty, the engine starts and moves you. Anyways, I paid $28k new for my Jeep and an e version Rubicon would run me about $70k, so again, that makes no sense to me. I also looked a little at the Crosstrek hybrid which gets good reviews and better gas mileage. But these are above the highest Crosstrek trim and only available with the CVT transmission. Figure $40k for one. Well, my 3 year old Crosstrek with 25k miles on it was purchased new for $22k. So big money and hybrids don't get the EV kinds of mileage. I figure I'd go from about 35 mpg with my present one to maybe 45 mpg with the Crosstrek. Not worth it at all for me and I lose the fun manual transmission.
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7eight9
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 7eight9 »

Hillview wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:41 am It really depends on a number of things. In my case I have an EV, I don’t drive a lot (about 10k miles a year). I would pay about 6k a year in gas (based on current gas prices where I live) if I didn’t get the EV I have and looking at what I would have gotten instead. I don’t pay for charging (do it at work). So it saves me about 6k a year. If I charged at home it would just over 5k a year in savings but my house already has solar. Depending on tax credits it might be more. So I think you really have to look at what your situation is
- what EV would you get
- what gas car would you get
- how much do you drive
- what is charging going to cost you? What will gas cost you?
- what are the incentives if any for the EV you are looking at
- do you have solar/electric charging at home or at work
- if you drive a lot far distance EV is less appealing to ME as it would required I stop a lot to charge (potentially)

YMMV :sharebeer
$6,000 in gas for 10,000 miles seems very high.

10,000 miles / 20 mpg = 500 gallons x $6/gallon = $3,000

20 mpg is pretty bad these days.
I guess it all could be much worse. | They could be warming up my hearse.
cjcerny
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cjcerny »

Not too difficult to determine the fuel savings of a non-plug in hybrid to a gas car. Gets more difficult after that. Consumer Reports does calculate and publish the MPG data on all the cars they buy. They also take a shot at calculating the MPG of the electric vehicles they buy, but electricity could be more or less expensive where you are.

Important to keep in mind that some hybrids are much more mild than others in terms of how much work the manufacturer asks them to do. In some makes/models, hybrid only adds 4 MPG or so. In others, it can add 18 MPG.

Generally, I would say hybrid is about 10-50% more fuel efficient and electric is about 300-400% more fuel efficient.

I have a 2013 Prius and a 2019 Prius in my fleet. The 2013 averages 44MPG and the 2019 averages 52 MPG in mixed driving. Both of those models are very low drag. A hybrid Highlander on gets 32 MPG, as you would expect, from the high profile and body style.
neilpilot
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

7eight9 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:49 am
$6,000 in gas for 10,000 miles seems very high.

10,000 miles / 20 mpg = 500 gallons x $6/gallon = $3,000

20 mpg is pretty bad these days.
You are correct. I have 2 SUVs that each are driven about 10k miles/yr.

The ICE gets 27mpg, uses premium, which is currently down to about $4/70/gal. = $1,740

The EV is typically 3.7mi/kwh. I almost always charge at home because it's so convenient, even though it came with 3 years of free fast charging. My home electric rate is up 40% from just 3 months ago, to $0.14/kwh, 10k mi/yr = $378.

I expect routine maintenance cost will be much higher for the ICE than the EV. The EV should be easier on brake linings, but a bit harder on tires. The EV has no oil and engine and oil filters.

The ICE and EV we own are comparable in size and comfort. In model year 2021, the MSRP of the ICE was $43,200 and the EV was $43,995 (before the $7500 tax credit).
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
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neilpilot
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:49 am You absolutely need to first learn the credits from the federal and state governments. How is applied? Personally, if I am to buy an EV and get the federal tax credit, I'd have to do it this year as I plan to retire early next year. If you "get" the $7500 federal tax credit and don't have $7500 in federal tax liability, you will not get all of it. Say your full federal tax is $2800. Well, you get $2800. And of course, several makers have passed the number of vehicles to qualify. GM and Tesla, you get zero.
Regarding the impact of retirement on the ability to take the $7500 tax credit, it obviously depends on your particular circumstance. I took the rebate in TY2021.

In my case, I've done annual tIRA-to-Roth conversions every year of my retirement until starting RMDs. So in any of my retirement years sufficient liability wouldn't have been an issue. If my projected tax liability had been below the $7500 rebate (I wish!), I would have simply increased that year's tIRA-to-Roth conversion amount to capture the entire rebate.

To be clear, I'm talking about the tax credit as it stands today, not the impact of any proposed changes.
adamthesmythe
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by adamthesmythe »

It's not only how much you drive, it's how you drive. If primarily highway driving the gas savings of a hybrid are pretty small (on models I looked at).
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willthrill81
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by willthrill81 »

Here is a calculator that allows you to see how much annual savings you could have from driving an EV over an ICE, including a hybrid: https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/.

But the bottom line is that no matter which vehicles are being considered, trading a relatively low cost, used vehicle you already own for a relatively high cost, new vehicle that costs much less to drive (whether ICE, hybrid, or EV) doesn't usually make good financial sense unless you're driving MUCH more than the average person does.

For instance, if you have an ICE that gets 25 mpg, gasoline is $5/gal., and you drive 15k miles annually, your total fuel cost will be $3k. If you drive those same miles in an EV and pay $.12/kWh for electricity to recharge it, you'll pay $500 to recharge it, a savings of $2.5k/year. Given that the average used vs. nice vehicle price in 2022 is about $20k, it would take 8years to break-even (assuming one's existing vehicle would last another 8 years).
RCL
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by RCL »

Don't forget to add in the extra insurance costs!!
hunoraut
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by hunoraut »

The additional math specific to EV is quite easy. Just assume car travels 3.3 miles per kWh electricity, instead of 25 miles per gallon or whatever your basis is. Electricity price is on your bill.
neilpilot
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by neilpilot »

RCL wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 1:03 am Don't forget to add in the extra insurance costs!!
Or to subtract the savings. It costs less to insure my EV than the ICE it replaced.
surfinagin
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by surfinagin »

2022 Sentra-
Paid 23K and averaging 35mpg (and >42mpg on last road trip). Driven approx 5,000 miles annually.

That math works for me, therefore not crunching any EV #'s.
stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

Depends on so many different factors. For instance, comparing apples to apples, the hybrid is actually the base model for our primary vehicle (Ford Maverick), so we saved $1500 at the time of purchase over the ICE. We also are getting WAY over EPA (>49mpg) and expect maintenance costs to be less than the ICE version, but we have no way of really determining that because it is a first-year model...For us, we're saving $50/month in gas and expect it will be quit a bit cheaper in the long run, but we won't know for sure for a few years.

Next we'll be replacing our '17 VW jetta with a full EV for most of our commuting (~5yrs). I expect that will cost us $30k or more, even though we'll be looking at smaller base model vehicles (ie. bolt, leaf). Going to be hard to beat the jetta for overall cost considering we purchased it new for >$14k OTD, we average WAY over EPA estimates (just got back from a road trip, averaged ~50mpg over 1700 - mostly highway - miles), and it's been relatively reliable, outside of freak accidents like having to replace the windshield twice.
cmr79
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.

Not sure the vehicle comparison is apples to apples either; a better comparison would be comparing a non-dedicated EV platform at a similar trim level between EV and non-EV variants. A good example would be the Hyundai Kona, which is available at SEL trim on both the EV and ICE variants. The cost differential for the EV is about $14,000. Per Edmund's testing, the EV got 22.3 kWh/100 miles while the ICE gets an EPA combined 32 mpg. At 10,000 miles per year and the current $4.60/gallon for gas, the EV would cost $223/year to fuel, while the ICE would cost $1,437.50. The payoff would be 11.5 years, which means it would be reasonable to expect that the EV would be less expensive to fuel over the course of its lifespan (even if across multiple owners). And that isn't even considering the federal tax credit, which if purchased right now would cut the break-even period by more than half.
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uaeebs86
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by uaeebs86 »

The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
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stoptothink
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Big Dog
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Big Dog »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.
fwiw: California also keeps its rates high. My Tier two is $0.28, any EV charging is at that rate or more. (Tier 1 gets use up by normal lights and cooking.)

https://www.energysage.com/local-data/e ... y-cost/ca/
Leesbro63
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Leesbro63 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Yes but as cars move down the food chain (first owner keeps a car 3 years, then the car is acquired by the person who buys "nearly new", then the car is acquired by the budget minded family, then the car is acquired by the college kid), the depreciation of that battery is real. Good ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
smitcat
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.

Not sure the vehicle comparison is apples to apples either; a better comparison would be comparing a non-dedicated EV platform at a similar trim level between EV and non-EV variants. A good example would be the Hyundai Kona, which is available at SEL trim on both the EV and ICE variants. The cost differential for the EV is about $14,000. Per Edmund's testing, the EV got 22.3 kWh/100 miles while the ICE gets an EPA combined 32 mpg. At 10,000 miles per year and the current $4.60/gallon for gas, the EV would cost $223/year to fuel, while the ICE would cost $1,437.50. The payoff would be 11.5 years, which means it would be reasonable to expect that the EV would be less expensive to fuel over the course of its lifespan (even if across multiple owners). And that isn't even considering the federal tax credit, which if purchased right now would cut the break-even period by more than half.
Average recent prices for electric in the NY/Long Island/ New Jersey areas are at about $0.25/kwh.
Average for the US is about $0.15/kwh.
https://www.bls.gov/regions/new-york-ne ... rkarea.htm
smitcat
Posts: 9334
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:51 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by smitcat »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Yes but as cars move down the food chain (first owner keeps a car 3 years, then the car is acquired by the person who buys "nearly new", then the car is acquired by the budget minded family, then the car is acquired by the college kid), the depreciation of that battery is real. Good ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Exactly - resale value can be a large part of costs when comparing any vehicles no matter how they are powered.
tibbitts
Posts: 18010
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:50 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by tibbitts »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Yes but as cars move down the food chain (first owner keeps a car 3 years, then the car is acquired by the person who buys "nearly new", then the car is acquired by the budget minded family, then the car is acquired by the college kid), the depreciation of that battery is real. Good ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
I don't know anything about hybrid cars but won't they just keep running when the battery dies? Probably with a check "engine" light but we know Bogleheads just cover those up with tape.
Normchad
Posts: 4139
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Normchad »

I have a Tesla, and drive about 8000 miles a year.

According to the Tesla app, based on this and my local electric and gas prices, I am saving $133/month.
hunoraut
Posts: 865
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by hunoraut »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 amGood ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Ok. Do you or have you operated a car with that mileage such that it becomes a relevant measure to you?
Leesbro63
Posts: 8269
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:36 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Leesbro63 »

hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:13 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 amGood ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Ok. Do you or have you operated a car with that mileage such that it becomes a relevant measure to you?
I’ve operated cars to 80,000 miles. Won’t battery depreciation be a factor in depreciation to 80k miles?
mervinj7
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mervinj7 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Yes but as cars move down the food chain (first owner keeps a car 3 years, then the car is acquired by the person who buys "nearly new", then the car is acquired by the budget minded family, then the car is acquired by the college kid), the depreciation of that battery is real. Good ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Are average car driver keeping cars until 400k miles? Maybe I'm not understanding the point of these extreme examples that affect very few people. Besides, just consider the costs of gasoline, oil changes, transmission fluids, etc to reach 400k miles.
mervinj7
Posts: 2335
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by mervinj7 »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:13 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 amGood ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Ok. Do you or have you operated a car with that mileage such that it becomes a relevant measure to you?
I’ve operated cars to 80,000 miles. Won’t battery depreciation be a factor in depreciation to 80k miles?
Sure, to some degree but go on any used car site and check out the prices of a Prius with 80k miles. They are still quite high.
cmr79
Posts: 169
Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:25 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

smitcat wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:08 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.

Not sure the vehicle comparison is apples to apples either; a better comparison would be comparing a non-dedicated EV platform at a similar trim level between EV and non-EV variants. A good example would be the Hyundai Kona, which is available at SEL trim on both the EV and ICE variants. The cost differential for the EV is about $14,000. Per Edmund's testing, the EV got 22.3 kWh/100 miles while the ICE gets an EPA combined 32 mpg. At 10,000 miles per year and the current $4.60/gallon for gas, the EV would cost $223/year to fuel, while the ICE would cost $1,437.50. The payoff would be 11.5 years, which means it would be reasonable to expect that the EV would be less expensive to fuel over the course of its lifespan (even if across multiple owners). And that isn't even considering the federal tax credit, which if purchased right now would cut the break-even period by more than half.
Average recent prices for electric in the NY/Long Island/ New Jersey areas are at about $0.25/kwh.
Average for the US is about $0.15/kwh.
https://www.bls.gov/regions/new-york-ne ... rkarea.htm
Ah, you are right. I inadvertently used outdated US Energy Admin Data from 2021; they won't update their data tables again until December apparently. There are obviously specific metro areas and time of use variation that will exceed overall averages, but I still only see Hawaii above $0.30/kWh currently...granted, I also see some data for Hawaii up to $0.37/kWh in the past year! :shock:

Adjusting for current electricity prices increases the break even point for the EV from my example by about one year.
LISD
Posts: 194
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:52 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by LISD »

smitcat wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:08 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.

Not sure the vehicle comparison is apples to apples either; a better comparison would be comparing a non-dedicated EV platform at a similar trim level between EV and non-EV variants. A good example would be the Hyundai Kona, which is available at SEL trim on both the EV and ICE variants. The cost differential for the EV is about $14,000. Per Edmund's testing, the EV got 22.3 kWh/100 miles while the ICE gets an EPA combined 32 mpg. At 10,000 miles per year and the current $4.60/gallon for gas, the EV would cost $223/year to fuel, while the ICE would cost $1,437.50. The payoff would be 11.5 years, which means it would be reasonable to expect that the EV would be less expensive to fuel over the course of its lifespan (even if across multiple owners). And that isn't even considering the federal tax credit, which if purchased right now would cut the break-even period by more than half.
Average recent prices for electric in the NY/Long Island/ New Jersey areas are at about $0.25/kwh.
Average for the US is about $0.15/kwh.
https://www.bls.gov/regions/new-york-ne ... rkarea.htm
$0.33/kwh on my last bill, in San Diego.
CletusCaddy
Posts: 818
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:23 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by CletusCaddy »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10.
More like $0.16

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610
Leesbro63
Posts: 8269
Joined: Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:36 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Leesbro63 »

mervinj7 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:38 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:24 am
hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:13 am
Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 amGood ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Ok. Do you or have you operated a car with that mileage such that it becomes a relevant measure to you?
I’ve operated cars to 80,000 miles. Won’t battery depreciation be a factor in depreciation to 80k miles?
Sure, to some degree but go on any used car site and check out the prices of a Prius with 80k miles. They are still quite high.
The point is that the battery will be a big ticket cost that occurs long before any similar thing in cars without them. That depreciation has to be paid for somewhere.
Jack FFR1846
Posts: 15322
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 7:05 am
Location: 26 miles, 385 yards west of Copley Square

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am
Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 10:12 am Yah, 10k miles for my Crosstrek that gets 35 mpg and today, gas is $4.30 a gallon (neglecting the discounts I get), that's only $1,228.57 a year.

A Kia EV6 Wind (dual motor) measured 32.4 kWHr/100 mi (short of EPA rating....Kia lied). My electricity costs 30 cents a kWHr all in. So 10k miles would cost $966.

With a new Crosstrek like mine at sticker going for $27k and a Kia (I test drove one and got a price) costing $60k, the difference (I didn't do out the door, it would be worse with tax and all) is $33k. Now, I will assume you will get the federal $7500 tax credit making the difference now only $25.5k. With the cost difference per year (10k miles) of $262.57, how long would it take to make up the outrageous selling price?

$25,500/$262.57 = 97.11 years.

So there ya go. Feel free to do the same with your own car you would consider, your gas cost and your electricity cost.

Honestly, cost wise, I would consider a Subaru Solterra because I've already been quoted MSRP for a premium. I've bought a bunch of Subarus from this dealer so people there actually know me (also from us all being members of a big Subaru forum). So that's $47k minus both federal and state $10k, so $37k. Minus the Crosstrek $27k is $10k. Figure the same kWHr use and we have $10k/$262.57 = 38 years.

In reality, I don't need to buy a car, so it would take even longer to break even with what I've got as I'd sell the Crosstrek to buy the EV.

In addition to that, if you aren't buying a Tesla, how will you charge? If you have a garage, you can put in a type 1 (120V) or type 2 (240V) pretty easily. If you're in an apartment or condo without that availability, then where? I did ask about the Audi while looking at it and there is not a good charging network. They piggyback on one of the generic charger companies. I'm sure they assume anyone spending $117k for a car has a garage. But if I want to vacation up in Nova Scotia (which DW and I do plan), then how can we be sure we can actually make it? That's something worth considering. The other thing with Teslas is the vandalism problem. I've seen numerous videos, sometimes right from the car camera of people keying these cars. I think a Tesla is as hated as a Porsche when seen in a parking lot. Be ready to be keyed. It is something I've very much considered.

(math double checked and corrected)
Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10. Unless you mean the price for DC fast charging, but I don't think most people would advocate for buying an EV if there is no way to charge at home (i.e. apartment with street parking) on financial terms alone.

Not sure the vehicle comparison is apples to apples either; a better comparison would be comparing a non-dedicated EV platform at a similar trim level between EV and non-EV variants. A good example would be the Hyundai Kona, which is available at SEL trim on both the EV and ICE variants. The cost differential for the EV is about $14,000. Per Edmund's testing, the EV got 22.3 kWh/100 miles while the ICE gets an EPA combined 32 mpg. At 10,000 miles per year and the current $4.60/gallon for gas, the EV would cost $223/year to fuel, while the ICE would cost $1,437.50. The payoff would be 11.5 years, which means it would be reasonable to expect that the EV would be less expensive to fuel over the course of its lifespan (even if across multiple owners). And that isn't even considering the federal tax credit, which if purchased right now would cut the break-even period by more than half.
I live in Massachusetts and literally took my latest bill and took the total $ and divided it by the kWHr used to get 30 cents per. New England is mostly powered by natural gas fired generation plants. Natural gas is brought in with pipelines that are too small and strangle the amount available. I don't know if it's brought in with other ways. I do see signs all over eastern and central Mass "No pipelines" as the gas lines want to add more lines on their existing properties and it's shot down every time. Our natural gas tends to be 2 to 3 times the price of places like the mid west.

The examples I used for cars are those I have actually driven or considered buying. My absolute requirement is that the car is AWD. I looked online for a Kona and found that this isn't available with the Kona, so that's out. The closest Kona EV is 176 miles away and I'm not going more than an hour for a stupid car. The EV6, Crosstrek and Solterra are all AWD. Also, you absolutely cannot go by MSRP. The EV6 has an added markup over MSRP of $5k, which is why all of the 3 vehicles on the dealer's lot were $60k or $61k (color adder). The Subaru, for Joe off the Street has the same $5k adder but for me, because of my relationship, I would have to wait for a premium to come in, but could buy it for MSRP.

I get that other states may have bigger and better incentives to buy an EV. Where I am, getting one under $50k (where Mass gives $2.5k) is quite limiting. As expected, just like a Lexus iS with rear wheel drive, you just don't find single motor non-AWD vehicles here. I do know that a Tesla Model 3 single motor is available because after driving the performance, I asked if they ever get single motors in and one just arrived. But that's going to be just under $50k, so will get the $2500 off, but of course not the $7500 off and DW doesn't allow non-AWD vehicles in our house. I guess too many times when moms in AWD vans and all season tires got stuck trying to get up our driveway and called for me to drive a snow tire'd Subaru down to pick up the kids.

Anyways, I do encourage you to use the numbers for yourself. I picked $4.30 because the Shell and Cumberland Farms in Westborough center both had prices when I wrote this of $4.299. And again, the most recent electric bill is sitting right here. I did not include maintenance because it's minimal when determining car cost. I know this because I've been on car plans at work for decades and 3 things make up almost all of a car's cost. Depreciation, insurance and gas. Maintenance is insignificant, so avoiding oil changes is like the difference in putting milk or half and half in my coffee.

I do agree that EVs cost less to run given today's gas and electric cost in my house. But I really do have to consider the outrageously higher prices of EVs. I've never spent more than $32k on a new car. And I've literally owned many dozens of cars including BMW, Audi and Lotus. I do expect cost to buy is going to drop over time but also cost of gas is going to drop. I stayed away from my own personal gas discounts. My closest gas station is a Shell and I'm in the Shell program and linked to the Stop & Shop program. So when I get gas, I'm getting some kind of discount. My last fill up, I brought my Jeep with a trailer hitch rack carrying gas cans. I filled 20 gallons and with the discounts, got $1.55 discount PER GALLON. I don't see electric discounts anywhere. Yes, I know I could have solar panels put on my house (free in Massachusetts, by the way), but a previous solar water panel constantly leaked water in our house, so I won't do that.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid
stoptothink
Posts: 11993
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 2010 9:53 am

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by stoptothink »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 10:04 am
stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
Yes but as cars move down the food chain (first owner keeps a car 3 years, then the car is acquired by the person who buys "nearly new", then the car is acquired by the budget minded family, then the car is acquired by the college kid), the depreciation of that battery is real. Good ICE cars, like Honda and Toyota, can run 400,000 miles without a major repair. Will an hybrid Toyota run that long without needing a costly battery?
Also take into consideration that, of hybrids that have been on the market for a long time, they tend to have similar (if not lower) overall maintenance costs as comparable ICE vehicles including possible battery replacement.

If you are looking at buying a used car with 150k+ miles, absolutely something to think about. For a family like us that tends to buy new and keep for maybe 10yrs (and drives 10k-12k miles a year total); not even a consideration.
vasaver
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 2:15 pm
Location: Virginia

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by vasaver »

My numbers have worked out pretty well.

Nissan Leaf purchased in 2017 - $8500 (2015 used off lease)
Annual Mileage ~12k ~ .12 per kWh and free charging at the grocery store
- Purchased 1 set of tires. No oil changes, brakes...

In the current market a used newer leaf or chevy bolt for 15-25k could still be a great car.
It really doesn't make sense to compare a 20k sentra vs a 60k ev6 or ioniq 5.
Joyful
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2022 11:31 pm

Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Joyful »

My 2015 Prius with 24K miles gets 50+ miles to the gallon. Very satisfied with mileage. From what I can tell on Mr. Google, the cost would range from +$1200 refurbished to $4000 with estimated replacement starting at/after 150K+ or 310K+ miles. I’m ok with that since I have a car maintenance sinking fund which rolls over year after year. My Prius has performed very well requiring only maintenance and minor replacements (non-hybrid battery). I would definitely buy another Prius.
hunoraut
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by hunoraut »

CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:58 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10.
More like $0.16

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Consumers total electricity cost is for the electricity + infrastructure/transmission. Its not always clear which is which when cited or quoted.
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

We have two EVs, both Teslas, and I can provide some stats.

Tesla does not have any kind of scheduled maintenance, you only take it in for service if needed.
For costs I will not mention tires, windshield wiper fluid and cabin air filter changes, as they are fairly standard costs which apply to ICE and Hybrid-ICE as well.

1) Tesla Model 3 LR since September 2018:

* Current odometer: 37,755 miles
* Repair: $150 to replace a portion of undercarriage shielding, probably damaged by rocks.
* Repair: The charging port was replaced under warranty.
* Upgrade: the autopilot computer was upgraded at no cost to us from HW2.5 to HW3.0 as we paid for FSD package when we bought it.
* Last recorded "trip": 12,185 miles for a total of 3,392 kWh --> 278 Wh/mi

2) Tesla Model Y LR since March 2022:
* Current odometer: 5,733 miles
* Repairs: n/a
* Last recorded "trip": 5,733 miles for a total of 1,689 kWh --> 295 Wh/mi

So in average you can probably assume a cost of approximately (0.3 * kwh_cost) per mile for Tesla.
In our case we spend $0.08 / kWh to charge at home, your cost of course will vary assuming you can charge in your own home.

If you cannot charge at home or if you do road trips you will typically use Tesla's supercharger network which is currently the best charging network in both North America and Europe. Unfortunately third party fast charging network like Electrify America have a mix record of being poorly maintained and thus long distance trips are still only truly problem-free only on Tesla supercharger network. Tesla has opened up its superchargers in Europe to other EVs, and the expectation is that it will do the same in the US by providing an adapter from Tesla connector to the CCS connector.

I use PlugShare, available both on the web and as an app on the phone to locate third-party chargers and free L2 chargers as well.

Cost of Supercharging (Tesla's fast DC chargers) varies typically by state, cost is per kWh when possible, but in some states they have to charge by minute on account of local laws. Every state I've been so far charges by kWh (CA, OR, WA, MT, WY, SD).
This is a link to the map of Tesla superchargers:
https://www.tesla.com/findus?v=2&bounds ... er%2Cparty

The costs are not published so you will need to do some searching for the costs in your area. Here are some sample prices from my bill from 5/22/22 to today, all prices dollars per kWh

Seattle, WA $0.42
Vancouver, WA $0.37
Salem, OR $0.37
Myrtle Creek, OR $0.37
Yreka, CA $0.43
Williams, CA $0.46
Red Bluff, CA $0.47
Klamath Falls, OR $0.38
Kettleman City, CA $0.45
Temecula, CA $0.58
Monterey, CA $0.40

The takeway is that in the past two months prices are around $0.40/kWh for OR and WA and between $0.40-$0.58/kWh for CA.
Last edited by squirrel1963 on Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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vasaver
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by vasaver »

Joyful wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:25 pm My 2015 Prius with 24K miles gets 50+ miles to the gallon. Very satisfied with mileage. From what I can tell on Mr. Google, the cost would range from +$1200 refurbished to $4000 with estimated replacement starting at/after 150K+ or 310K+ miles. I’m ok with that since I have a car maintenance sinking fund which rolls over year after year. My Prius has performed very well requiring only maintenance and minor replacements (non-hybrid battery). I would definitely buy another Prius.
Just curious - but why get a hybrid when you drive so few miles? Our 2012 Prius v with 127k on it gets closer to 40mpg and no issues besides replacing the 12v battery.
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squirrel1963
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by squirrel1963 »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:44 am
uaeebs86 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:32 am The maintenance costs will be much higher for the ICE yearly during the years you are analyzing, but there will be a large cost at some point (8 - 12 years, 100-200K miles?) for the EV to replace the batteries.
There's a lot of fear-mongering about replacing batteries. The large majority of hybrid and EV owners will have moved onto a new car before they ever replace a battery. A friend of mine recently replaced the battery in his prius (first time, at ~280k miles) and total it was ~$2k (refurbished).
For Tesla vehicles usually the battery loses about 10% of capacity during the first 2 years and stabilizes around that. You can now find a lot of high-mileage old Model X and Model S (using 18650 batteries) at 200K-350K miles. Tesla warranty on battery pack is as follows: "8 years or 120,000 miles, whichever comes first, with minimum 70% retention of Battery capacity over the warranty period.".

All currently manufactured Teslas use 2170 battery form factor, and the production of the last battery form factor 4680 is being scaled up at Austin. Some customers who bought the SR version already use 4680 cells on the road. The expectation is that the current 2170 and the new 4680 will be more reliable and last longer.
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cmr79
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by cmr79 »

The data seems to suggest that the Nissan Leaf had battery degradation problems due to having no thermal management system for the batteries...overheating seems to really kill them. Both the older Chevy Volts and Tesla Model S sedans, as mentioned above, seem to fare pretty well in terms of battery longevity despite vehicles with 10+ year old packs and 300k+ miles. Obviously there are outliers, but battery degradation seems to be far less of an issue than I would have imagined.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by CletusCaddy »

hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:23 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:58 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10.
More like $0.16

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Consumers total electricity cost is for the electricity + infrastructure/transmission. Its not always clear which is which when cited or quoted.
Given that the San Francisco data shows $0.31, I'm pretty sure this is an all-in cost.

https://alfred.stlouisfed.org/series?seid=APUS49B72610
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

Nvielbig wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 9:24 am I know that there are federal tax credits for efficient cars, which I think have been eliminated for a lot of brands/in certain states.
There is one federal tax credit, up to $7500 and nonrefundable, for "clean vehicles." Tesla and GM vehicles no longer qualify, and Toyota is also about to enter its phaseout. A federal tax credit cannot, by definition, "have been eliminated ... in certain states," not sure what you're trying to say there. Of course there are various state, local, and utility incentives, which are often changing.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Monsterflockster »

CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:06 pm
hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:23 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:58 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10.
More like $0.16

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Consumers total electricity cost is for the electricity + infrastructure/transmission. Its not always clear which is which when cited or quoted.
Given that the San Francisco data shows $0.31, I'm pretty sure this is an all-in cost.

https://alfred.stlouisfed.org/series?seid=APUS49B72610
PG&E rates in CA:
25 cents off peak per kWh
45 cents part peak
56 cents peak

Add $10-11 monthly delivery charge.

10 cents or even 16 would be incredible!!
vasaver
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by vasaver »

cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:21 pm The data seems to suggest that the Nissan Leaf had battery degradation problems due to having no thermal management system for the batteries...overheating seems to really kill them. Both the older Chevy Volts and Tesla Model S sedans, as mentioned above, seem to fare pretty well in terms of battery longevity despite vehicles with 10+ year old packs and 300k+ miles. Obviously there are outliers, but battery degradation seems to be far less of an issue than I would have imagined.
FYI - My 2015 Nissan leaf (manufactured in 2014) has 68,xxx miles on it. The first 2 year lease was in Atlanta, and has been in the Washington DC area since 2017. Currently it has 11 bars with about 88% of original capacity without an active thermal management system. If it lived in Seattle or Portland it probably would be even higher.
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by chipperd »

Normchad wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:09 am I have a Tesla, and drive about 8000 miles a year.

According to the Tesla app, based on this and my local electric and gas prices, I am saving $133/month.
That doesn't seem right.
My legacy gets 35mpg.
If I were to drive 8,000 miles per year, that's 667 miles/month.
667 miles driven / 35mpg = 19.06 gallons of gas needed.
19.06 gallons of gas @ current price of $4.15 in my neck of the woods means I would be spending just under
$80/month on gas.
I believe that app has a homer bias unless it's factoring some small percentage of an oil change that the all electric won't need?
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02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 11:01 am Here is a calculator that allows you to see how much annual savings you could have from driving an EV over an ICE, including a hybrid: https://chooseev.com/savings-calculator/.

But the bottom line is that no matter which vehicles are being considered, trading a relatively low cost, used vehicle you already own for a relatively high cost, new vehicle that costs much less to drive (whether ICE, hybrid, or EV) doesn't usually make good financial sense unless you're driving MUCH more than the average person does.

For instance, if you have an ICE that gets 25 mpg, gasoline is $5/gal., and you drive 15k miles annually, your total fuel cost will be $3k. If you drive those same miles in an EV and pay $.12/kWh for electricity to recharge it, you'll pay $500 to recharge it, a savings of $2.5k/year. Given that the average used vs. nice vehicle price in 2022 is about $20k, it would take 8years to break-even (assuming one's existing vehicle would last another 8 years).
Cost of energy is only part of the cost of ownership though. The $20K cost will be partially recouped when the vehicle is sold, e.g., if someone is considering trading in a 5-year-old car with 75K miles, then we need to figure that at the end of that 8-year-period the 8-year-old car with 120K miles is going to be worth more than a 13-year-old car with almost 200K miles.

There's also maintenance and repairs - I've spent $28 total to maintain my EV in its first year, and this cost is likely to remain at that level, as EVs require little to no maintenance beyond tire rotations and filling liquids, and eventually new tires. An ICE vehicle is likely to cost at least a few thousand dollars more in maintenance in that time, esp. if we're talking years 6-13 of ownership. Figure another several thousand for repairs, as the 5-year-old ICE car is already out of its warranty, and even the longer powertrain warranty (that covers expensive components like the engine and transmission) will have run out. Meanwhile, the new EV starts with a new basic warranty, and the really expensive components (the battery and electric motor) are generally covered for 10 years.

That's before you assign any value to the benefits of a newer car generally (like infotainment and driver assist features) or EVs in particular (lack of noise and vibration, much better acceleration).
Last edited by 02nz on Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

chipperd wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 9:09 pm
Normchad wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:09 am I have a Tesla, and drive about 8000 miles a year.

According to the Tesla app, based on this and my local electric and gas prices, I am saving $133/month.
That doesn't seem right.
My legacy gets 35mpg.
If I were to drive 8,000 miles per year, that's 667 miles/month.
667 miles driven / 35mpg = 19.06 gallons of gas needed.
19.06 gallons of gas @ current price of $4.15 in my neck of the woods means I would be spending just under
$80/month on gas.
I believe that app has a homer bias unless it's factoring some small percentage of an oil change that the all electric won't need?
The newest Legacy is rated for 35 MPG on the highway, but 27 MPG city and 30 MPG combined. Unless your driving is entirely on the highway, it seems very unlikely you're getting 35 MPG. With higher gas prices in many areas, a $133/mo saving over a typical ICE car is entirely plausible.
02nz
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by 02nz »

Monsterflockster wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:17 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:06 pm
hunoraut wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 3:23 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 11:58 am
cmr79 wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 8:53 am Do you live in Hawaii? That is the only part of the US I am aware of that has electricity rates even close to $0.30/kWh. The average residential price per kWh in the US is closer to $0.10.
More like $0.16

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/APU000072610

Consumers total electricity cost is for the electricity + infrastructure/transmission. Its not always clear which is which when cited or quoted.
Given that the San Francisco data shows $0.31, I'm pretty sure this is an all-in cost.

https://alfred.stlouisfed.org/series?seid=APUS49B72610
PG&E rates in CA:
25 cents off peak per kWh
45 cents part peak
56 cents peak

Add $10-11 monthly delivery charge.

10 cents or even 16 would be incredible!!
First, almost all EVs can be programmed to charge during off-peak hours (generally the overnight hours - precisely when it's most convenient for most people to charge at home!).

Second, the places that have high electricity costs tend to have higher gas prices as well, and so the savings are if anything higher in those areas.

Third, many EV drivers are able to take advantage of free charging at work, the mall, etc. The majority of the miles on my EV have been on free electricity.
Joyful
Posts: 43
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Re: Overall savings between Gas, Hybrid and EV vehicles

Post by Joyful »

vasaver wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:23 pm
Joyful wrote: Sat Jul 30, 2022 2:25 pm My 2015 Prius with 24K miles gets 50+ miles to the gallon. Very satisfied with mileage. From what I can tell on Mr. Google, the cost would range from +$1200 refurbished to $4000 with estimated replacement starting at/after 150K+ or 310K+ miles. I’m ok with that since I have a car maintenance sinking fund which rolls over year after year. My Prius has performed very well requiring only maintenance and minor replacements (non-hybrid battery). I would definitely buy another Prius.
Just curious - but why get a hybrid when you drive so few miles? Our 2012 Prius v with 127k on it gets closer to 40mpg and no issues besides replacing the 12v battery.
I live in a highly walkable area and pre-Covid I was taking the train/subway to work, now I work from home. For 5 years from 2010 to mid 2015 I didn’t own a car, I used various car sharing services. The reason I bought a car was primarily to go to church on Sundays. I’m female and did not want the hassles of potential repairs with buying a used vehicle. My previous car (Infiniti g20) i bought new and I owed it from 1994 to 2010. When I sold it it had 188K miles on it. My plan is to have my Prius until it can no longer be driven. I wanted a fuel efficient car that had a hatch back that would hold up well and could be driven for 200K+ miles.
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