Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

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arsenalfan
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Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Please recommend PHEV or EV for suburban DC city driving. Short commute partially on beltway (1 exit).

Commute is 10 miles round-trip. Occasional trip into DC of about 20-25 miles on 495.

VW GTI had terminal repair, sold to Carmax. Loved it. Have 220V outlets in garages, in fantasy world would get EV variant of GTI. This is our 3rd car, have the family mobiles already (Mazda CX5 for upcoming teen drivers, 2023 XC60 PHEV on order to replace 2007 Odyssey).

Budget: ideally under $30k. Definitely not more than 40k.

Preliminary thoughts:
Used BMW i3, Leaf: Keep hearing battery will die/etc. Price is right of around $20-25k though (hear stories of 10-20k, but not in DC area).
Bolt: Seems kind of puny, almost like a larger Smart for 2, would it survive a crash?
Plug in Prius?

Looking to buy in next 1-2 months. Please no posts about bad time/waiting for EV/PHEV models/until supply chain resolves. I get it - need car by end of summer, ideally next week.

Thanks in advance!
crefwatch
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by crefwatch »

-battery will die

This is a common imagined terror, along with freezing to death in a blizzard on a highway. But it's not based in reality. A REAL issue is that the Leaf battery only has passive cooling. Most others circulate coolant. The larger the installed base of your model, the more junkyards will have non-dealer batteries available for your (imagined) need. The history of Prius is my statistical backing for this statement.

You have (financially) set the task of buying a used vehicle. That means an older battery. Get comfortable with that, before you buy. Learn about how charging only to 80% (for example) can extend the life of the battery.

You will learn that your range is less in the winter, because of heating the cabin. A/C in the summer also, but a much lesser effect.

Why is a Bolt too small? Do you not believe the Federal crash reports? Do you need an armored SUV to protect your family from .... what? Tractor trailers? TV show T-Bones from FBI surveillance teams? That's all in vain. How much space do you need for a daily commute-That's the question.

Posted by (new) 2021 Chevy Bolt EV owner.

Edit: I loved my 2008 and 2014 Priuses. But they have plenty of ICE preventive maintenance. Make sure a plug-in hybrid can reach your office with all-electric range and speed. (Prius plug-in starts engine at some moderate speed.)

Prius now available with AWD for those with TEOTWAWKI worries. Lower MPG of course. I get almost 40% off some bridge crossings with my BEV. Do you know some states are starting to collect a gas-road tax substitute for EVs?
Last edited by crefwatch on Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Thanks, hope you enjoy your Bolt. Excited about Bolt EUV when that rolls in around me.

Found a few Mercedes B Class 250e - adding that to the list.
Jack FFR1846
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

Your max price puts you theoretically into a new MINI EV, which has not yet arrived. Of course, the "normal" dealer behavior seems to be to add at least $5k to the MSRP, so that puts it at or over the $40k max. There's a MINI plug in hybrid already, but I see none in my area. That will be the other issue for you. New, you'll find vehicles at higher added dealer markup. One Ford dealer near me (Imperial in Millis, MA) has a bunch of Mustang Mach e, but they list the MSRP at $20k over actual MSRP, which is ironically easily found clicking "window sticker" right below the splash page MSRP. None are in your budget.

In the plug in hybrid lineup, I am seeing near me Subaru Crosstrek Hybrids. It is basically a Toyota Prius Prime plug in hybrid system. Toyota and Subaru have been teamed up lately for new vehicle development. Possibly the new Toyota EV to match the Subaru Solterra. Toyota will offer a single motor front wheel drive version that the MSRP might be under $40k, but again, how much added markup will the dealer add. I talked with my Subaru dealer and in a couple weeks, they get their Solterra allocation and plan to put $5k on it over MSRP. They're getting 4 of them. They are already landed at the Rhode Island port.

The Leaf or a used Prius Prime might be your best bet with your budget, if you can find one. Personally, with your use, I'd probably want the plug in hybrid as there's some chance of finding one for a reasonable price even new. Lower initial cost and no range anxiety.

New, look into the federal tax credit. I'm not clear how much the plug in hybrid credit is but I do know Tesla, Toyota and Chevy have used up their numbers. It's where Kia, Hyundai, Subaru and even Jeep currently have advantages with EVs and plug in hybrids. Check state credits too. For me, a new Subaru Solterra would cost me $46k, but would get $7500 federal and $2500 MA state tax credits, so $36k, which falls in your range, but for you, can you get one for MSRP?
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RobLyons
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by RobLyons »

I'll try to sell you on Toyota Prius. I love my 2017 Prius ll. For under $27k for a 2022 brand new, you can't beat it. Save another $5k-$7k for used. They are comfortable, cost to operate is super low, and highly reliable. In 5 years I average 57mpg, or around 5 cents per mile, with difficult winters cutting me down from 60mpg. Oil changes and fluids are free for 2 years from Toyota then after that oil changes are $20-$30 via offers from my dealership. Full disclosure, I just had to replace brakes early at 52k miles, probably due to the insane big city and highway traffic I deal with daily but mechanic says they usually last 80k+. No major problems and only bigger maintenance is at 100k I believe. Oil changes, fluid top offs, air filters and wipers. :D
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robphoto
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by robphoto »

We bought a RAV4 Prime PHEV. If you can find a dealer that sells at MSRP, it's a little over 40K, but you get a $7500. federal tax credit, plus, I think, $2500 credit in Virginia. Ours gets an honest 40-50 miles of EV range before it goes to hybrid. That's a bigger car than the smaller EVs
robphoto
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by robphoto »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:12 am Your max price puts you theoretically into a new MINI EV, which has not yet arrived. Of course, the "normal" dealer behavior seems to be to add at least $5k to the MSRP, so that puts it at or over the $40k max. There's a MINI plug in hybrid already, but I see none in my area. That will be the other issue for you. New, you'll find vehicles at higher added dealer markup. One Ford dealer near me (Imperial in Millis, MA) has a bunch of Mustang Mach e, but they list the MSRP at $20k over actual MSRP, which is ironically easily found clicking "window sticker" right below the splash page MSRP. None are in your budget.

In the plug in hybrid lineup, I am seeing near me Subaru Crosstrek Hybrids. It is basically a Toyota Prius Prime plug in hybrid system. Toyota and Subaru have been teamed up lately for new vehicle development. Possibly the new Toyota EV to match the Subaru Solterra. Toyota will offer a single motor front wheel drive version that the MSRP might be under $40k, but again, how much added markup will the dealer add. I talked with my Subaru dealer and in a couple weeks, they get their Solterra allocation and plan to put $5k on it over MSRP. They're getting 4 of them. They are already landed at the Rhode Island port.

The Leaf or a used Prius Prime might be your best bet with your budget, if you can find one. Personally, with your use, I'd probably want the plug in hybrid as there's some chance of finding one for a reasonable price even new. Lower initial cost and no range anxiety.

New, look into the federal tax credit. I'm not clear how much the plug in hybrid credit is but I do know Tesla, Toyota and Chevy have used up their numbers. It's where Kia, Hyundai, Subaru and even Jeep currently have advantages with EVs and plug in hybrids. Check state credits too. For me, a new Subaru Solterra would cost me $46k, but would get $7500 federal and $2500 MA state tax credits, so $36k, which falls in your range, but for you, can you get one for MSRP?
Not sure about the other brands, but for Toyota the full credit is in effect through September, then goes down in phases per this article: https://electrek.co/2022/04/11/federal- ... in-the-us/
Iorek
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Iorek »

Have you driven a bolt? That seems to be a logical option and I don’t think it’s really fair to compare it to a smart car.

You could also consider the Leaf— Nissan still has the tax credit so the Leaf is a fair bit cheaper than the bolt all in and the range should be plenty for your needs. I think some people think the Leaf is a nicer car (range aside) than the bolt.

PS if you don’t need the extra range of a hybrid I would go pure EV because they are more fun to drive and lots less maintenance
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Thanks All

Calling/emailing the dealerships today around me in suburban Maryland. New Ioniq 5 and EV6 are great but around $52k. Solterra looks cute too. Have emails out for Bolt and Bolt EUV. Will try a Prius, but am kind of used to 0-60 in 6 sec from the GTI.

I vacillate between being disciplined (A B-Class MB was tempting for around $20k) and buying a car to temporize for 5 years, and just going with a $50k nicer variant I'll keep for longer. Can afford either route...

Ideal world? Get me a EV6 electric skateboard platform and drop a 65 Shelby Cobra body on it. I digress...
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samsoes
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by samsoes »

crefwatch wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 6:47 am -battery will die

This is a common imagined terror, along with freezing to death in a blizzard on a highway. But it's not based in reality. A REAL issue is that the Leaf battery only has passive cooling. Most others circulate coolant. The larger the installed base of your model, the more junkyards will have non-dealer batteries available for your (imagined) need. The history of Prius is my statistical backing for this statement.

You have (financially) set the task of buying a used vehicle. That means an older battery. Get comfortable with that, before you buy. Learn about how charging only to 80% (for example) can extend the life of the battery.

You will learn that your range is less in the winter, because of heating the cabin. A/C in the summer also, but a much lesser effect.

Why is a Bolt too small? Do you not believe the Federal crash reports? Do you need an armored SUV to protect your family from .... what? Tractor trailers? TV show T-Bones from FBI surveillance teams? That's all in vain. How much space do you need for a daily commute-That's the question.

Posted by (new) 2021 Chevy Bolt EV owner.
Ouch! :shock:
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kakemono
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by kakemono »

robphoto wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:20 am We bought a RAV4 Prime PHEV. If you can find a dealer that sells at MSRP, it's a little over 40K, but you get a $7500. federal tax credit, plus, I think, $2500 credit in Virginia. Ours gets an honest 40-50 miles of EV range before it goes to hybrid. That's a bigger car than the smaller EVs
$7500 credit for Toyota is being phased out. I have the same car - we got it when the getting was good, but without the 7500 credit, meh. We love the car though!
mrb09
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by mrb09 »

Specifically for the Leaf:

The older pre-2016 Leafs did have a problem with batter degradation. 2016 had a redesign for a new battery that doesn't seem to have that issue. As another poster stated, the battery is air cooled, which limits the charging speed on fast chargers on hot days or repeated charging. But the fast charger uses an older style port that's getting hard to find (Chademo instead of CCS), so road trips are a little dicey anyway.

I bought a used 2018 Leaf for $20k last year and couldn't be happier for an around town car. The SL trim has Apple CarPlay which we use for navigation. My wife and I work from home, we probably use the car 100-150 miles a week for errands and trips. I charge with it a level 2 charger in the garage, and used a commercial fast charger maybe a few times in the last year.

I'll likely upgrade to a new BEV next year when supply settles down, with a longer range and CCS charge port, but for around town (or a 10 mile commute), a 2016 or later Leaf is pretty good.
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Thanks for all the posts.
Leaf is prob the economical route.
And economical is prob the way to go since I need this car for only 2 years really.
Teen driver 1 will drive a 2021 CX5 from Fall 2022 - Fall 2024, then leave for college.
Teen driver 2 won't be driving until 2026 - at which point the EV/PHEV market will be through its 1st gen and supply chain issues (hopefully).
MGBMartin
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by MGBMartin »

The mrs and I bought a used 2017 Kia Soul EV a couple of years ago.
About 25000 miles on it and about 7 years left on the warranty.
Most of our driving is just a mile or so each way to the park and back each day, a couple of miles for groceries and occasionally to the airport or medical place.
We couldn’t be happier with it, would never go back to a gas car. It is perfect for our running around.

Sure it only gets about 90-100 miles on a charge but we often go 3 weeks between charges.
It costs about $3.50 to charge it, my gas car would be $25 for the same miles.
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WhyNotUs
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by WhyNotUs »

To me, PHEV are an obsolete product with a fatal flaw- both and engine and a motor. The benefit of an electric motor is lack of maintenance, so why have an engine that needs oil changes, tunes, etc.

If you want an internal combustion engine, the Prius is hard to beat.

For a battery powered vehicle, your ideas of a BMW i3 or Leaf for $25k are fine if you can find one. I have a 2020 Leaf SV and previously owned a 2013 Leaf, the battery degradation is overstated with the exception of some early Leafs in very hot climates. Nissan replaced the batteries for those with legitimate claims. $25k probably gets you a 2020 or 2019 Leaf or maybe a 2018 i3. As you are aware used prices are up now.

If you enjoy being a little nerdy, there is an app called Leafspy Pro that combined with an OBD II reader will allow you to read the state of health of the battery in a used car. Otherwise, you can ask a local dealer if they will check a battery pack for you. BMW may offer similar app.
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Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Love all the replies

At this point, it's going to be whatever is available first at Carmax, Carvana, or the mechanic/dealer I know who has access to the nationwide auctions.

Kia Soul EV sounds like it would work too
MGBMartin
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by MGBMartin »

WhyNotUs wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:42 am To me, PHEV are an obsolete product with a fatal flaw- both and engine and a motor. The benefit of an electric motor is lack of maintenance, so why have an engine that needs oil changes, tunes, etc.

If you want an internal combustion engine, the Prius is hard to beat.

For a battery powered vehicle, your ideas of a BMW i3 or Leaf for $25k are fine if you can find one. I have a 2020 Leaf SV and previously owned a 2013 Leaf, the battery degradation is overstated with the exception of some early Leafs in very hot climates. Nissan replaced the batteries for those with legitimate claims. $25k probably gets you a 2020 or 2019 Leaf or maybe a 2018 i3. As you are aware used prices are up now.

If you enjoy being a little nerdy, there is an app called Leafspy Pro that combined with an OBD II reader will allow you to read the state of health of the battery in a used car. Otherwise, you can ask a local dealer if they will check a battery pack for you. BMW may offer similar app.
When I drive my gas now it just feels like I am driving something that has hundreds of moving parts or bits waiting to go wrong compared to my EV. Maybe it’s just a psychological thing but it’s the car that cost me $3000 because the fuel pump died, same model that cost me $3800 when the transmission went out at 60,000 miles. As I’m driving down the street my mind is running through a list of things on a gas car that are not on an EV.
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Dakotah
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Dakotah »

WhyNotUs wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:42 am To me, PHEV are an obsolete product with a fatal flaw- both and engine and a motor. The benefit of an electric motor is lack of maintenance, so why have an engine that needs oil changes, tunes, etc.

If you want an internal combustion engine, the Prius is hard to beat.

For a battery powered vehicle, your ideas of a BMW i3 or Leaf for $25k are fine if you can find one. I have a 2020 Leaf SV and previously owned a 2013 Leaf, the battery degradation is overstated with the exception of some early Leafs in very hot climates. Nissan replaced the batteries for those with legitimate claims. $25k probably gets you a 2020 or 2019 Leaf or maybe a 2018 i3. As you are aware used prices are up now.

If you enjoy being a little nerdy, there is an app called Leafspy Pro that combined with an OBD II reader will allow you to read the state of health of the battery in a used car. Otherwise, you can ask a local dealer if they will check a battery pack for you. BMW may offer similar app.
That's not a PHEV specific limitation. Traditional hybrids also have both an ICE and electric motors. Hybrids has proven to be extremely reliable and long-lasting despite this fact...particularly the prius.

I drive a PHEV (Rav4 Prime)...and one of the big reasons why I'm a big believer in the technology is that the battery is used for the short trips (short commutes, errand-running) that also just happen to be the most wear-inducing drives for an ICE vehicle. Short-tripping shortens an ICE's lifespan. That's much less of a concern in a PHEV. I expect the ICE in a PHEV to be far more reliable and long-lasting as a result.

From a carbon-emissions perspective, a strong case can be made for hybrids and PHEVs to be more beneficial than full BEVs right now...particularly compared to the huge-battery/long-range BEVs. A long-range BEV is the best way to reduce the individual's diving emissions...but it's not the best way to reduce the world's vehicle fleet's emissions from a macro level. The batteries are the most carbon-intensive portion of BEV production. The larger the battery capacity, the more miles that car will need to be driven to offset the higher manufacturing carbon emissions compared to other car types. Some long-range BEVs may never get to that break-even point. Further muddying the case for BEVs is the scarcity of batteries...it's largely the limiting factor in BEV production/adoption. Sure, you can go buy an F150 Lightening and cut your own driving emissions to zero...but for the same amount of battery capacity in that Lightening (98kWh)...~6 ICE vehicles could have been replaced with a PHEV (~15kWh each)...and about 60 ICE vehicles could have been replaced with a traditional hybrid (~1.5kWh each). That's a far more efficient way to utilize batteries that are currently being produced.
MathWizard
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by MathWizard »

My son loves his Ford CMax Energi plug-in hybrid. Can fill battery overnight from 120V outlet,
good for 40 miles on battery, then switches to hybrid mode. In hybrid mode, he gets 36 MPG.

He test-drove a Prius, and could barely see out the back window.

This is not an ideal vehicle, but it was reasonable cheap. (A 2013 at $7,500, bought in late 2019).
It looks like the prices have gone way up in the last 2 years though. The dealer had quite a few of them, so
maybe he was just trying to reduce stock.
This would seem to fit your commute well. The issue is that the PHEV is a retrofit, with the
battery takes up a large part of what would normally be the cargo area.

A plug-in Prius with the 40 mile range would work as well, but I believe they are more expensive.
Greentree
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Greentree »

My first thought is a used e-Golf based on you liking the ICE Golf. You'll have to do your research on model years and range. I believe they started in 2015 with 80 miles range, ended in 2019 with 125 or so. But a 2015 might be down to 60 miles range by now. They are Bosch powertrains and supposed to be pretty fun to drive.
MathWizard
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by MathWizard »

MGBMartin wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:31 am
WhyNotUs wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:42 am To me, PHEV are an obsolete product with a fatal flaw- both and engine and a motor. The benefit of an electric motor is lack of maintenance, so why have an engine that needs oil changes, tunes, etc.

If you want an internal combustion engine, the Prius is hard to beat.

For a battery powered vehicle, your ideas of a BMW i3 or Leaf for $25k are fine if you can find one. I have a 2020 Leaf SV and previously owned a 2013 Leaf, the battery degradation is overstated with the exception of some early Leafs in very hot climates. Nissan replaced the batteries for those with legitimate claims. $25k probably gets you a 2020 or 2019 Leaf or maybe a 2018 i3. As you are aware used prices are up now.

If you enjoy being a little nerdy, there is an app called Leafspy Pro that combined with an OBD II reader will allow you to read the state of health of the battery in a used car. Otherwise, you can ask a local dealer if they will check a battery pack for you. BMW may offer similar app.
When I drive my gas now it just feels like I am driving something that has hundreds of moving parts or bits waiting to go wrong compared to my EV. Maybe it’s just a psychological thing but it’s the car that cost me $3000 because the fuel pump died, same model that cost me $3800 when the transmission went out at 60,000 miles. As I’m driving down the street my mind is running through a list of things on a gas car that are not on an EV.
Are you sure about 3K for a fuel pump replacement? I know that the cost is much higher now, but checking I see prices in the 300 to 1000 range.

When I replaced them years ago, the cost was something like $20 for the part, and I did the labor. However, the fuel pumps in the tank are more complicated.
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snackdog
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by snackdog »

Used Leaf is the way to go.
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ray.james
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by ray.james »

I bought a Honda Clarity with 47 miles EV range when they were selling for a price of low end civic after tax credits. An excellent car and hard to find them these days. I smell a deal on Bolt these days. Mileage doesn't matter since GM is changing battery.
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Greentree
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Greentree »

The Bolt is the best deal out there now. I can’t imagine GM is making anything on it. You might drive one to see if you like it. Then go down the list.
Pdxnative
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Pdxnative »

Used Leaf is a hard deal to beat for the needs you describe. Here’s a good forum for learning about the car and various things to look for when buying used:

https://mynissanleaf.com/
audioengr
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by audioengr »

What about VW ID.4?

I just did an inventory search and there is a 2021 ID.4 AWD Pro - $44,870 MSRP at Alexandria Volkswagon.
Dual Motor models are quite punchy - I believe under 6 Second 0-60.
Still qualifies for full $7500 rebate.

They also show to have a 2022 AWD Pro S - $46,925 MSRP
More features, plus advanced LED headlights.

If you're a virgina resident, it looks like there is a $2500 rebate plus an enhanced $2000 rebate.
That looks like a total of $12,000 of incentives.

https://www.vw.com/en/inventory.html/__ ... -app=20268

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacodefull ... /article8/
MGBMartin
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by MGBMartin »

MathWizard wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 12:08 pm
MGBMartin wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 10:31 am
WhyNotUs wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 9:42 am To me, PHEV are an obsolete product with a fatal flaw- both and engine and a motor. The benefit of an electric motor is lack of maintenance, so why have an engine that needs oil changes, tunes, etc.

If you want an internal combustion engine, the Prius is hard to beat.

For a battery powered vehicle, your ideas of a BMW i3 or Leaf for $25k are fine if you can find one. I have a 2020 Leaf SV and previously owned a 2013 Leaf, the battery degradation is overstated with the exception of some early Leafs in very hot climates. Nissan replaced the batteries for those with legitimate claims. $25k probably gets you a 2020 or 2019 Leaf or maybe a 2018 i3. As you are aware used prices are up now.

If you enjoy being a little nerdy, there is an app called Leafspy Pro that combined with an OBD II reader will allow you to read the state of health of the battery in a used car. Otherwise, you can ask a local dealer if they will check a battery pack for you. BMW may offer similar app.
When I drive my gas now it just feels like I am driving something that has hundreds of moving parts or bits waiting to go wrong compared to my EV. Maybe it’s just a psychological thing but it’s the car that cost me $3000 because the fuel pump died, same model that cost me $3800 when the transmission went out at 60,000 miles. As I’m driving down the street my mind is running through a list of things on a gas car that are not on an EV.
Are you sure about 3K for a fuel pump replacement? I know that the cost is much higher now, but checking I see prices in the 300 to 1000 range.

When I replaced them years ago, the cost was something like $20 for the part, and I did the labor. However, the fuel pumps in the tank are more complicated.
Yes I’m sure.
Notice I said when the fuel pump died.
When I called the mechanic he said it’s the fuel pump but I’d have to wait until the boss came back for him to give me details.
I’m thinking a fuel pump that’s a couple of hundred maybe. I google fuel pump replacement for my car and the first link I see is a forum post from someone…
“ the dealer just told me it will be $3000 to replace my fuel pump, is that right?”
Sure enough, the boss calls me back to give me that same news.

It’s a Mercedes and the fuel pump and fuel tank are a sealed unit that has to be replaced in entirety.
Over $2200 for the tank and a good part of an day in labor as the rear subframe has to be dropped.
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White Oak
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by White Oak »

I have a 2013 Ford C-Max Energi. At this point I get 10-14 miles of electric range, depending on the season.

Is anyone going to recommend a used Chevy Volt?
Pdxnative
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Pdxnative »

audioengr wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 1:01 pm What about VW ID.4?

I just did an inventory search and there is a 2021 ID.4 AWD Pro - $44,870 MSRP at Alexandria Volkswagon.
Dual Motor models are quite punchy - I believe under 6 Second 0-60.
Still qualifies for full $7500 rebate.

They also show to have a 2022 AWD Pro S - $46,925 MSRP
More features, plus advanced LED headlights.

If you're a virgina resident, it looks like there is a $2500 rebate plus an enhanced $2000 rebate.
That looks like a total of $12,000 of incentives.

https://www.vw.com/en/inventory.html/__ ... -app=20268

https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacodefull ... /article8/
ID.4 would be a great option if you can find one. Most people who’ve ordered are experiencing very long wait times for delivery. The cars showing up in dealer inventory are most often those that have been ordered and are in transit for delivery. Some dealers are marking up and some aren’t. Any orphans out there are more than likely being marked up and disappear fast.
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Let’s face it, it’s 24 miles a week, third car.

I’d get a trek e-bike if It wasn’t for winter.

Availability is really an issue for anything new or used. 2017 and younger Leafs are $25-30k used if you can find one.

Sooooo…May just hoon a used Miata and order something that will come in by November.
stoptothink
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by stoptothink »

arsenalfan wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:09 pm Let’s face it, it’s 24 miles a week, third car.

I’d get a trek e-bike if It wasn’t for winter.

Availability is really an issue for anything new or used. 2017 and younger Leafs are $25-30k used if you can find one.

Sooooo…May just hoon a used Miata and order something that will come in by November.
My eunoreau e-bike is fantastic in the snow (fat tires) and it got way more than 24 miles a week this past winter. I currently use it to commute 8 miles roundtrip to our MMA gym 5-days a week (and every other local trip where it is just me) and we have 2 cars (one which is never driven).

That being said, IMO the bolt is probably what I would go with if I was intent on buying a new car in this situation. Having driven both, I prefer them over a leaf at similar pricepoints.
Fennec
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Fennec »

I drive a 2019 Kia Niro PHEV which gets 24 miles on a full charge (trickle charger overnight in garage). That gets me to & from most places around me that I go to. My most recent gas top off was 7 gallons which cost me $27, and I last got gas a couple of months ago. I also have solar panels, and the past two months electric bill has been $0. If the PHEV runs out of juice, then the hybrid system kicks on automatically and I get 60MPG when running on hybrid only.
farmecologist
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by farmecologist »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 7:12 am
The Leaf or a used Prius Prime might be your best bet with your budget, if you can find one.
For the OP's commute distance, the Prius Prime simply can't be beat. And it has proven to be extremely reliable. Check out priuschat.com for more information that you ever wanted to know about it. :D

However, like you said, the issue is finding one. I have to shake my head every time I see the price of ANY used Prius these days. We purchased a 2012 Prius V wagon a couple years ago and they were practically giving them away. Not so much anymore. :shock:
fasteddie911
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by fasteddie911 »

Leaf. If that usage is truly accurate, the non-plus Leaf should be more than sufficient and in your price range easily. I've never heard of battery dying, certainly degrading, but that's more so on older models. Not sure how the newer, 2018+ models are doing but it does come with a 8yr battery warranty. We have a 2020 and no problems, does its job well as a basic commuter.
02nz
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by 02nz »

To add to my post above recommending the Bolt - Chevy announced a big price drop for model year 2023, and it looks like they've also added comparable incentives to 2022 models: https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicl ... _bolt_euv/
wickywack
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by wickywack »

arsenalfan wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:14 am Bolt: Seems kind of puny, almost like a larger Smart for 2, would it survive a crash?
The Bolt is surprisingly big inside. Can easily fit my tall (6'+) family of 4. To the best of my knowledge, it's fine on crash test ratings. Never felt unsafe in it.
stoptothink
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by stoptothink »

wickywack wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 3:08 pm
arsenalfan wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 4:14 am Bolt: Seems kind of puny, almost like a larger Smart for 2, would it survive a crash?
The Bolt is surprisingly big inside. Can easily fit my tall (6'+) family of 4. To the best of my knowledge, it's fine on crash test ratings. Never felt unsafe in it.
That was interesting statement, the bolt is MUCH larger than a smart car. It weighs nearly 2.5x as much as the smart and is surprisingly roomie for 4. It's certainly not a big car, but it is very similar in size to other compacts - closest to the Kia Soul.
Chuckles960
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Chuckles960 »

I've never found the answer to this---what about the gas that sits in a PHEV? I'll be driving short distances, like the OP, so won't the gas have gone bad by the time it is used? Do people add STA-BIL to every tank, and if so is that enough?

I've read that non-ethanol gas is best for long life, but that simply isn't available in my area.
sandan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by sandan »

Chuckles960 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:56 pm I've never found the answer to this---what about the gas that sits in a PHEV? I'll be driving short distances, like the OP, so won't the gas have gone bad by the time it is used? Do people add STA-BIL to every tank, and if so is that enough?

I've read that non-ethanol gas is best for long life, but that simply isn't available in my area.
Stabil 360 is supposed to be adaquate.
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DarkNyte
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by DarkNyte »

Bought a 2022 Mini Cooper SE for $22,000 OTD after tax, which included the $7500 Federal plus California state credits for EVs. That's the car you should buy, especially since you don't need much range. Other than a few super EVs that are $60K plus in cost, the Mini Cooper SE is the best driving EV bar none.
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ray.james
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by ray.james »

Chuckles960 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:56 pm I've never found the answer to this---what about the gas that sits in a PHEV? I'll be driving short distances, like the OP, so won't the gas have gone bad by the time it is used? Do people add STA-BIL to every tank, and if so is that enough?

I've read that non-ethanol gas is best for long life, but that simply isn't available in my area.
It usually works fine upto 6 months or even an year. Both clarity and volt have fuel burn mode once it detects we went beyond few months of usage with out using gas engine. It burns gas for few miles and stops(also help with heating and moves the oil). In Honda clarity, the tank is also vacuumed as soon as car detects fuel was added. This increases gas life further.
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
Dakotah
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Dakotah »

ray.james wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:02 pm
Chuckles960 wrote: Fri Jun 10, 2022 4:56 pm I've never found the answer to this---what about the gas that sits in a PHEV? I'll be driving short distances, like the OP, so won't the gas have gone bad by the time it is used? Do people add STA-BIL to every tank, and if so is that enough?

I've read that non-ethanol gas is best for long life, but that simply isn't available in my area.
It usually works fine upto 6 months or even an year. Both clarity and volt have fuel burn mode once it detects we went beyond few months of usage with out using gas engine. It burns gas for few miles and stops(also help with heating and moves the oil). In Honda clarity, the tank is also vacuumed as soon as car detects fuel was added. This increases gas life further.
I do use Stabil 360...but it's probably not totally necessary. Toyota doesn't mention anything about stabilizers in their PHEV manuals. It's important to note that modern cars are all airsealed, and don't have the continual air-exchange that older vehicles had. PHEV tanks place particular emphasis on this...which greatly slows the degradation. Rav4 Prime manuals, for example, recommend that a minimum of 5 gallons of fresh gas is added to the tank each year. That's about half of a tank.
z0r
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by z0r »

a note on the i3... it may have gotten better, but I wrote it off because it used a special tire size that was much more expensive than Prius tires and only last 10-20k for many people (vs Prius having no problem going over 50k on relatively cheap tires)

tire expense easily made it more expensive to operate than a Prius when I did the math, even if you have very cheap electricity and do a lot of battery driving. from an eco perspective (not my primary motivation, but not nothing) you're landfilling a lot more rubber and you're creating lots more particulates (a major health pollutant, although not a greenhouse problem)

do consider a Prius, even a non plug in one might be an excellent option and then the tax rebate on the plug in is huge
Saving$
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Saving$ »

Fennec wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:34 pm I drive a 2019 Kia Niro PHEV which gets 24 miles on a full charge (trickle charger overnight in garage). That gets me to & from most places around me that I go to. My most recent gas top off was 7 gallons which cost me $27, and I last got gas a couple of months ago. I also have solar panels, and the past two months electric bill has been $0. If the PHEV runs out of juice, then the hybrid system kicks on automatically and I get 60MPG when running on hybrid only.
The Niro PHEV is a great option that meets the OP's criteria

OP seems to be looking at used cars. If OP is buying a PHEV, OP should figure out if a new car will be net less expensive, due to the tax credits available for PHEV and EV's.
Valuethinker
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by Valuethinker »

Saving$ wrote: Mon Jun 13, 2022 12:26 am
Fennec wrote: Thu Jun 09, 2022 2:34 pm I drive a 2019 Kia Niro PHEV which gets 24 miles on a full charge (trickle charger overnight in garage). That gets me to & from most places around me that I go to. My most recent gas top off was 7 gallons which cost me $27, and I last got gas a couple of months ago. I also have solar panels, and the past two months electric bill has been $0. If the PHEV runs out of juice, then the hybrid system kicks on automatically and I get 60MPG when running on hybrid only.
The Niro PHEV is a great option that meets the OP's criteria

OP seems to be looking at used cars. If OP is buying a PHEV, OP should figure out if a new car will be net less expensive, due to the tax credits available for PHEV and EV's.
And also just the insanity of the used car market?
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Probably going to push off until December or January.

In DC Maryland Virginia area before Tax Title Registration, but including any fed tax credit and dealer markup

Bolt is $35k
Leaf is 43k
No Mini SE or anything else available.

Most dealers are like “yup, we get about 2 cars every 3-4 weeks”. And one Nissan place said Nissan stopped letting I them pre-order.

Wife just ordered a Lexus NX450H+ to replace her car. That was thru a car auto buying service $1000 above MSRP. I may do that with a leaf.
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

Ok I signed up for CarPal

https://car-pal.com/pricing/

Should be interesting

Markup will be $1100 over MSRP and they source car.

Asked for some sort of Plug-In (Leaf/Bolt EUV/Prius) for <$35k all-in, by Sept
Also asked for a Lexus 450h+ by early 2023.
stefan_lec
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by stefan_lec »

We have a 2015 Leaf SV - the battery degradation was fixed halfway through the 2014 model year. Great for short range city driving, has around 70 miles of range now (originally was 84).

I see them available on Carvana in Columbia MD for 15k-18k, more than 30k for a leaf seems kind of ridiculous.

https://www.carvana.com/vehicle/2343716
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ray.james
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by ray.james »

arsenalfan wrote: Tue Jun 21, 2022 7:56 pm Ok I signed up for CarPal

https://car-pal.com/pricing/

Should be interesting

Markup will be $1100 over MSRP and they source car.

Asked for some sort of Plug-In (Leaf/Bolt EUV/Prius) for <$35k all-in, by Sept
Also asked for a Lexus 450h+ by early 2023.
Looks like realtor for cars. First time hearing about it.
When in doubt, http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=79939
Topic Author
arsenalfan
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Re: Recommend PHEV or EV Commuter

Post by arsenalfan »

1 day later, I have deposits in on 2 cars

2022 Bolt EUV Premier $38k - $6300 chevy discount. Add 1k for CarPAl, and that is about 34k + TTR. ETA ~3 weeks
2023 NX450H+ $56k + 7500 dealer markup + 1k CarPal + TTR. ETA ~4 weeks

Lexus is not a deal by any means, given the dealer markup. But CarPal found it halfway across the US, there are none to be had around me. This one is loaded with a bunch of unneeded crap from Lexus, but hey, what my partner likes, my partner gets.
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