How would you rate the following cities?

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quantAndHold
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by quantAndHold »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:54 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:41 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:11 pm Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago — too cold in the winter
Phoenix — mighty hot in the summer
Las Vegas — mighty hot in the summer, and has an economy based on gambling
Madison, WI — too cold in the winter
Indianapolis — too cold in the winter

Looks like Cincinnati or Knoxville.

You could do better than this list.
That was my impression too. It seemed like a random assortment of cities chosen because they’re “not too expensive,” with no other criteria added. I personally wouldn’t pick any of those places.

If this were me, and I were totally open to anywhere in the country, I would make a list of every city with at least three tech employers that have at least 1000 employees in that location. That should give you a list of cities with plenty of tech jobs. Then I would filter based on whatever your criteria is, pick maybe the top 5-10 locations, and spin up a job search in those locations. And see where that leads.

I would also ignore cost of living, because tech companies tend to pay enough better in HCOL locations to compensate for the cost of the location.
Thought I went over the criteria in the OP.

Other than Phoenix and Vegas, pretty much every other city was within driving distance of family. I could make an exception for a city like Phoenix.

Thank you for the suggestion. Perhaps some other cities will come up.
You did list some criteria, but then 5 of the 7 cities you listed clearly don’t meet your own criteria, so it’s hard to know how serious you are about the importance of the things you listed.

Also about dating, it will depend on whether you want to meet men or women. If you want to meet men, then the major tech hubs should be on your shortlist. If you want to meet women, those places drop much lower.

If you want to be close to family, I would look for places within a day’s drive of them, that have at least 5 tech employers with 500 employees. That might open up some more possibilities closer to home.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

Marseille07 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:23 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:46 pm Added to the list
Summers not too hot?
Charlotte can be humid. That said, if you say you prefer warmer weather then you shouldn't be asking "too hot." While at it, if that's a concern then Phoenix should not be on your list.
Phoenix has dry heat. :) Plus I admit that I am biased because I have been there.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

MJS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:31 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Phoenix
Las Vegas
... , nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).
Are you a morning person, rising before the sun during the summertime? Is 4am a wonderful time for you? From mid-April to mid-October, outdoor exercertion happens between 4am-9am. If the day begins for you at 10am, avoid these two cities.

But - lovely sunrises, lots of critters still roaming the washes and trails, and soft warm air - it is a truly beautiful time to be out.
Actually, I am more of a night owl.
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JoeRetire
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by JoeRetire »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm I have been thinking about relocating to a large (or larger) city and have my list narrowed down to the following:

Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago
Phoenix
Las Vegas
Madison, WI
Indianapolis

Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).

If anyone has lived in or know much about any of these cities, feel free to chime in. Thanks!
Cities are not monolithic. There are good neighborhoods/areas and bad areas in every city. And some of these cities are rather large.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by kelway »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm I have been thinking about relocating to a large (or larger) city and have my list narrowed down to the following:

Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago
Phoenix
Las Vegas
Madison, WI
Indianapolis

Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).

If anyone has lived in or know much about any of these cities, feel free to chime in. Thanks!
I'd vote Knoxville out of those. We live in Nashville and that area is really pretty --- being so near the Smoky Mountains. Of course, that touristy Pigeon Forge / Gatlinburg area can be a turn off, but overall there is some great scenery out that way. Cheap too.
blueberrypi
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by blueberrypi »

Knoxville for me too. I like that area and western NC as much as anyplace in the USA. Tons to do if you like outdoor activities.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by MountainBiker »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:20 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:11 pm Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago — too cold in the winter
Phoenix — mighty hot in the summer
Las Vegas — mighty hot in the summer, and has an economy based on gambling
Madison, WI — too cold in the winter
Indianapolis — too cold in the winter

Looks like Cincinnati or Knoxville.

You could do better than this list.
Any other suggestions welcome.

Huntsville AL meets all your criteria. I moved here over 30 years ago and I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.
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Watty
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Watty »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities....
A lot depends on what you mean by "tech job" but I would be real cautious about moving to a smaller city where there may be few technical job except with the local government. Even if you can find a good job in some place like Knoxville you may be in a bind if when you need to find your next job.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:44 pm Raleigh makes me think of the Andy Griffith show. I think Mayberry was supposed to be near there lol.
The fictional Mayberry of the Andy Griffith Show was supposedly based on Mount Airy, NC which is not near Raleigh. Check Google Maps. Mount Airy has evolved into a wine area in the many decades that have elapsed since Andy Griffith. As for Raleigh, it is the largest city in NC's Research Triangle. You should google it before you throw stones at it.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Watty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities....
A lot depends on what you mean by "tech job" but I would be real cautious about moving to a smaller city where there may be few technical job except with the local government. Even if you can find a good job in some place like Knoxville you may be in a bind if when you need to find your next job.
Knoxville is a huge research center with Department of Energy and NASA facilities nearby. No shortage of tech jobs.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by livesoft »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:39 pmWhat's in Pittsburgh? When I think Pittsburgh, I think rust belt and steel mills.
Tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather

I am unaware of any steel mills in Pittsburgh. That's another era.
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40 Years' Gatherin's
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by 40 Years' Gatherin's »

Low crime? Well, you can cross Chicago, Las Vegas and Phoenix off your list.
Of the cities you mentioned, I'd pick Madison. You get 4 distinct seasons, and though winters can get brutally cold, the other 3 seasons are just about perfect in Wisconsin.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by MJS »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:47 pm
MJS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:31 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Phoenix
Las Vegas
... , nearby biking/hiking trails,
Are you a morning person, rising before the sun during the summertime?
Actually, I am more of a night owl.
Ah. For night owls ... the Arizona winter is a fabulous time to hike!

Summer hiking ... live on the northwest side of Phoenix, and head towards Prescott or Flagstaff for outside time. Note that Arizona doesn't do Daylight Savings Time, so sunset is about 7:40pm, and it's very dark (astronomical twilight) by 8:40pm on June 21st. Rattlesnakes resent people who hike in the dark. 8-) Hottest time of day is 4pm, while the UV Index high is 10am-3pm. Hiking from 5pm to 8pm is crowded and hot.
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Bungo
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Bungo »

You don't say what kind of tech work you're after, but if it's software engineering and you want a reasonably good/"modern" job, you could do worse than to identify which cities have significant Google offices and focus on those. This might leave out a couple of cities that have a good tech economy somehow overlooked by Google, but offhand I don't know of any except maybe Dallas.

Fortunately this is an easy search: https://about.google/locations/?region=north-america

From your list, only Chicago and Madison would qualify, and neither is a major tech hub. I wouldn't move to either if my goal was a tech job, although I did move to Madison to retire :D. There are of course the usual suspects - Bay Area, Seattle, Austin, NYC, DC, Boston - but also check out Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, Raleigh, maybe Pittsburgh depending on your area of focus (would be good for robotics, for example).
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Bungo »

livesoft wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:26 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:39 pmWhat's in Pittsburgh? When I think Pittsburgh, I think rust belt and steel mills.
Tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather

I am unaware of any steel mills in Pittsburgh. That's another era.
I never visited Pittsburgh during the steel mill era, when it was once memorably described as "hell with the lid taken off." When I finally did get around to visiting in this era, I was surprised at how strikingly beautiful its geography is: with its hills, trees, rivers, bridges it reminds me a lot of Portland, Oregon. And that first view of downtown coming out of the Fort Pitt Tunnel is amazing! This video shows it but doesn't really do it justice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDcIfsGNd2A
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by 3CT_Paddler »

If tech is your interest, I would say Austin, Atlanta and Charlotte should be on your list and probably in that order. Phoenix seems to have a huge contingent of midwesterners, so you will probably feel comfortable there. Also has a growing tech scene.

The benefit of a place like Atlanta is it has a wide range of places to live and opportunities to grow. A ton of businesses have headquarters here. You can choose affordability or comfort/style, and relative to most other major metro areas it is affordable, particularly if renting. To top it off you have the worlds busiest airport, which means cheap fairs to get wherever you need to go. Atlanta is as close to the western NC mountains as Charlotte.

I have lived in Virginia, PA, Nevada and Georgia, and spent some time in Phoenix. I think your two best bets are probably Phoenix and Atlanta.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by rob »

I think in a post covid era in tech... You might be less concerned about tech companies been local "in office" style when a lot of jobs have seemed to moved to completely remote.... My company only has "remote" locations now and people who had to be in a certain city have also been recast as "remote".
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by beyou »

Personally this is not how I would pick where to live.
Find the right career opportunity, which includes sufficient pay to more than cover cost of living sufficiently in that area.

In the end, anywhere you live has tradeoffs.
Career and family are only issues to seriously consider.
Even crime is less a concern as there are always good and bad areas in every city.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Bungo »

rob wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:19 pm I think in a post covid era in tech... You might be less concerned about tech companies been local "in office" style when a lot of jobs have seemed to moved to completely remote.... My company only has "remote" locations now and people who had to be in a certain city have also been recast as "remote".
I'm 100% in favor of remote work and hope that it will be the norm post-covid. But IMO it's too early to know how prevalent permanent remote positions are going to be in the long run. If the OP is in a position to move easily (renter, no kids, not too many possessions) then there's not much risk in taking a remote position and moving wherever he/she likes without regard to the local tech economy, but if not then it may be wise to proceed more cautiously: either stay put until the future situation becomes clearer or move somewhere that has a significant number of tech employers.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by FandangoDave5010 »

You found the suggestion of Reno "interesting." Check it out. It is no longer a dying casino town. Harrahs and Hilton are no longer here, the others are doing well. Their buildings have been stripped and converted to downtown condos and offices. The art scene is led by the Burning Man Festival which draws heavily upon Silicon Valley and brought with it the tech culture. The economics of the area has changed since Tesla built its battery gigafactory with Panasonic and will probably become a center for battery recycling with Ford in the picture. On the desert side of the Sierra, the climate is pleasant all year, never too cold or too hot. Reno even has it own airline, AHA. It flys non-stop to 12 locations on the West Coast, sending locals there and bringing tourists back. I plan to take the 75 minute flight to Palm Springs in February from Reno. The University of Nevada is here along with Triple A baseball and soccer. As for sports, biking and skiing are #1. As I said, check it out.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by MoonOrb »

Places to consider:

Greensboro NC
Colorado Springs CO
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HomerJ
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by HomerJ »

MJS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:31 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Phoenix
Las Vegas
... , nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).
Are you a morning person, rising before the sun during the summertime? Is 4am a wonderful time for you? From mid-April to mid-October, outdoor exercertion happens between 4am-9am. If the day begins for you at 10am, avoid these two cities.

But - lovely sunrises, lots of critters still roaming the washes and trails, and soft warm air - it is a truly beautiful time to be out.
You can do stuff outside around sunset too... You don't have to do everything at sunrise. And it's more June through September. Nothing wrong with April-May, and October.

But yeah you stay inside most of the time during the summer... Just like you stay inside most of the time in the winter in northern cities.

Big difference is that at least the sky outside your window is blue, instead of grey overcast, AND you can go outside comfortably when the sun is down (no such relief in the winter in the northern cities).
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HomerJ
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by HomerJ »

40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:30 pm Low crime? Well, you can cross Chicago, Las Vegas and Phoenix off your list.
LOL, all three of those cities are so big, you can easily find the majority of areas that are low-crime.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by gtrplayer »

HomerJ wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:42 pm
40 Years' Gatherin's wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:30 pm Low crime? Well, you can cross Chicago, Las Vegas and Phoenix off your list.
LOL, all three of those cities are so big, you can easily find the majority of areas that are low-crime.
I’m from the Midwest and have spent a decent amount of time in Chicago and I’ll defend it to anyone. It has got a bad wrap in the media for years over crime, but it’s enormous and most of Chicago is similar to any other big city in that respect - it’s not absent crime but far from the image we see.

What Chicago does have is amazing architecture, world class museums, the Chicago Symphony, a vibrant theater district, a legendary comedy scene, a jazz scene second only to New York, music festivals, tons of restaurants of all styles, a beachfront in the summer, more sports than anyone would be able to take in… it’s very similar in atmosphere to New York but maybe slightly less chaotic…
the midwestern metropolis… yes, it’s chilly in the winter and that’s a dealbreaker for some

Also, consider the other cities in the Midwest. They’re smaller but are all growing rapidly and are usually very cheap to live in, by comparison. The Midwest is flyover country to New Yorkers and Californians (except possibly Chicago) but Kansas City, St Louis, Des Moines, Minneapolis (although no denying the cold here in the winter), and Omaha are all decent choices and significantly more vibrant than portrayed on TV. You could even hang with Warren in Omaha.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

MountainBiker wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:05 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:20 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:11 pm Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago — too cold in the winter
Phoenix — mighty hot in the summer
Las Vegas — mighty hot in the summer, and has an economy based on gambling
Madison, WI — too cold in the winter
Indianapolis — too cold in the winter

Looks like Cincinnati or Knoxville.

You could do better than this list.
Any other suggestions welcome.

Huntsville AL meets all your criteria. I moved here over 30 years ago and I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else.
It doesn't get really hot and humid there during the summer? When I think the southern states like Alabama and Mississippi, I think hot and humid summers.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

Watty wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:12 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities....
A lot depends on what you mean by "tech job" but I would be real cautious about moving to a smaller city where there may be few technical job except with the local government. Even if you can find a good job in some place like Knoxville you may be in a bind if when you need to find your next job.
Duly noted.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:21 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:44 pm Raleigh makes me think of the Andy Griffith show. I think Mayberry was supposed to be near there lol.
The fictional Mayberry of the Andy Griffith Show was supposedly based on Mount Airy, NC which is not near Raleigh. Check Google Maps. Mount Airy has evolved into a wine area in the many decades that have elapsed since Andy Griffith. As for Raleigh, it is the largest city in NC's Research Triangle. You should google it before you throw stones at it.
I don't know how you got the impression that I was "throwing stones" at it merely because I mentioned that I used to hear it mentioned on the "fictional" Andy Griffith show. I was in no way comparing it to "Mayberry" LOL. I'm sure it is a fine city.

I recall mention of a "Mount Pilot" as well. I am pretty sure that was a fictional city.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by IMO »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 2:01 pm
Sandtrap wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:30 pm The Phoenix region is immense (5 million) , and greatly varies in housing costs, and all you mention.

Large tech and other corporations based here: Amazon, Boeing, General Dynamics, etc.
Outdoor oriented year round.
Crime is relative, contextual, and region dependent. (If I were a criminal, I would not want to ply my trade in Arizona)(kidding).
Dating has not been a functional radar for me for 4 decades so I can't comment on that.
Weather is great for 3-1/2 seasons. Mid summer heat can be grueling but some folks are out playing golf and tennis in the 100's so that's an individual thing.
With the highway system, major interstates, I-10, I-17, I-40 up North, you can be anywhere in a short time.
Medical care and so forth, IE: the venerable Mayo Teaching Hospita/center, is extensive.
PHX international Airport is one of the most busiest and extensively network airports in the world.
Cost of living is low compared to many areas of the USA.

This missive is only about Phoenix.
j :D
Thanks for the info! I have heard about the heat, but if the trade off is getting rid of snow, icy roads, and excessive cold, I think that would be an acceptable trade off.

I really enjoyed visiting there a couple of times although I did notice there was a lot of traffic. That is to be expected in a big city though.
OP, thought I'd respond with some feedback:

On this site, Phoenix tends to typically get less than desirable "reviews" because of the weather. Unless you looking at places in California/Hawaii (and a few others) any place will have a weather compromise at some time of the year and essentially it is simply a trade off (cold winters or hot summers). I go on further to say that many on the site will list places that by more objective data (see weatherspark for example) will show you that when people start talking about "mild" winters in places, they are kidding themselves that it pleasant in the winter. Basically when places get snow and go below freezing at night, they are cold even if they are not Fargo, ND cold. They become the same as Phoenix summers in that it becomes essentially not comfortable to be outside. Even the poster above lives in an area of AZ that has compromise at 5,000 ft and it gets snow/cold and limiting in the winters. People can act otherwise, but that is the reality of "mild winters." I put my money where my mouth is because I have a 2nd home in Phoenix to escape from limiting "mild" cold weather in the winters. In fact, saw a recent post of someone having somewhat similar setup, in this case a home in Bend,OR ("mild winter) and a 2nd home in Phoenix. Yeah one can theoretically go out and bike in a "mild" winter, but for most normal people, biking drops off pretty quickly when the highs only hit the 50's in the day and that's an objective statement.

Phoenix has many areas, and it has a very unique situation, it allows one to change elevations in a reasonable drive (say under 2 hrs) where one can go from great winter 70 degree bike/hike location and be up at "mild winter" areas with snow on the ground and skiing nearby. All that occurs with unique geographic areas in between. Quite a relatively unique situation in the country. One can tolerate the hot season by doing things that make hot weather tolerable outdoors (such as jet skiing/boating/SUP/kayaking/swimming) or by escaping at times with a quick easy drive up to higher elevations to places like Sedona, Prescott, Flagstaff, Showlow and the great activities offered by those areas. Arizona in my opinion is one of the best states for various recreational activities, sort of like CA, but less driving to get to the various areas.

Crime concerns? I guess there are stats one can find of "concern" but from a realistic perspective, I suspect those statistics are localized to certain areas and I wouldn't personally rank crime a concern for most living in most areas.

I can't speak of tech specifics in Phoenix or other cities outside what is commonly known for places like Austin/Silicon Valley, but I do know that there is a huge chip maker developing a facility in North Phoenix.

Dating? Not sure about that nowadays, but isn't that mostly on-line?

Housing: Pretty reasonable by most standards.

Visiting family from the location. Here's where I'd try to make a life where they had a reason to come visit me. In your situation, seems like having family come out in the winters. That's a big one from a career of living away geographically from family and all the vacation time/money spent simply to remain in closer contact/relations with family. If you going to move away, make it somewhere they will want to come to YOU.

Ultimately, there are many many factors when considering moving and it is very personal. My post isn't to convince you to move to Phoenix, but instead to hopefully put it in a more reasonable light if you are seriously considering it. Arizona relatively speaking has much to offer, but the grass is always greener.

One area that's not on your radar that I've spent some time visiting is actually just outside of Sacramento, CA in a place called El Dorado Hills. I liked it, nice areas near by to boat and do other water sports, apparently very near the tech communities/drivable for part time WFH/in office, weather that is reasonable in winter (yet drivable to Lake Tahoe areas), west of most forest fire smoke common in the summer, good airport access, good school districts, etc. Pretty good compromise overall IMO. Whenever I visit there, I'm always left with the feeling that this a a place my son should consider when done with college if he has the option.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

Bungo wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 7:45 pm You don't say what kind of tech work you're after, but if it's software engineering and you want a reasonably good/"modern" job, you could do worse than to identify which cities have significant Google offices and focus on those. This might leave out a couple of cities that have a good tech economy somehow overlooked by Google, but offhand I don't know of any except maybe Dallas.

Fortunately this is an easy search: https://about.google/locations/?region=north-america

From your list, only Chicago and Madison would qualify, and neither is a major tech hub. I wouldn't move to either if my goal was a tech job, although I did move to Madison to retire :D. There are of course the usual suspects - Bay Area, Seattle, Austin, NYC, DC, Boston - but also check out Dallas, Atlanta, Denver, Raleigh, maybe Pittsburgh depending on your area of focus (would be good for robotics, for example).
I wouldn't say I'm a top tier software engineer, but more of a solid jack of all trades IT guy that leans toward software and databases. If I were in my 20s, I'd go for a FAANG job but my entire career has been pretty much an IT/software guy in non-tech companies so my chances of being hired at a places like Google are honestly pretty slim.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

3CT_Paddler wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:02 pm If tech is your interest, I would say Austin, Atlanta and Charlotte should be on your list and probably in that order. Phoenix seems to have a huge contingent of midwesterners, so you will probably feel comfortable there. Also has a growing tech scene.

The benefit of a place like Atlanta is it has a wide range of places to live and opportunities to grow. A ton of businesses have headquarters here. You can choose affordability or comfort/style, and relative to most other major metro areas it is affordable, particularly if renting. To top it off you have the worlds busiest airport, which means cheap fairs to get wherever you need to go. Atlanta is as close to the western NC mountains as Charlotte.

I have lived in Virginia, PA, Nevada and Georgia, and spent some time in Phoenix. I think your two best bets are probably Phoenix and Atlanta.
Thanks for the suggestions. Another vote for Charlotte. I did not know all that about Atlanta.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

beyou wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:22 pm Personally this is not how I would pick where to live.
Find the right career opportunity, which includes sufficient pay to more than cover cost of living sufficiently in that area.
In the end, anywhere you live has tradeoffs.
Career and family are only issues to seriously consider.
Even crime is less a concern as there are always good and bad areas in every city.
[/quote]


That's another approach to take. Apply in a bunch of cities, accept the best offer, and adapt. I wouldn't say that career is my #1 priority so that is why I was factoring the other criteria. There are definitely tradeoffs. When I sat down and evaluated the 7 cities listed in the OP, they all had their pros and cons.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

Bungo wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:33 pm
rob wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 9:19 pm I think in a post covid era in tech... You might be less concerned about tech companies been local "in office" style when a lot of jobs have seemed to moved to completely remote.... My company only has "remote" locations now and people who had to be in a certain city have also been recast as "remote".
I'm 100% in favor of remote work and hope that it will be the norm post-covid. But IMO it's too early to know how prevalent permanent remote positions are going to be in the long run. If the OP is in a position to move easily (renter, no kids, not too many possessions) then there's not much risk in taking a remote position and moving wherever he/she likes without regard to the local tech economy, but if not then it may be wise to proceed more cautiously: either stay put until the future situation becomes clearer or move somewhere that has a significant number of tech employers.
Good points.
A remote job would be ideal but it seems that most of the interest I've received from employers were for on-site jobs.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

FandangoDave5010 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:07 pm You found the suggestion of Reno "interesting." Check it out. It is no longer a dying casino town. Harrahs and Hilton are no longer here, the others are doing well. Their buildings have been stripped and converted to downtown condos and offices. The art scene is led by the Burning Man Festival which draws heavily upon Silicon Valley and brought with it the tech culture. The economics of the area has changed since Tesla built its battery gigafactory with Panasonic and will probably become a center for battery recycling with Ford in the picture. On the desert side of the Sierra, the climate is pleasant all year, never too cold or too hot. Reno even has it own airline, AHA. It flys non-stop to 12 locations on the West Coast, sending locals there and bringing tourists back. I plan to take the 75 minute flight to Palm Springs in February from Reno. The University of Nevada is here along with Triple A baseball and soccer. As for sports, biking and skiing are #1. As I said, check it out.
Thanks for the additional information. Added to the list.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

HomerJ wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 pm
MJS wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 4:31 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm Phoenix
Las Vegas
... , nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).
Are you a morning person, rising before the sun during the summertime? Is 4am a wonderful time for you? From mid-April to mid-October, outdoor exercertion happens between 4am-9am. If the day begins for you at 10am, avoid these two cities.

But - lovely sunrises, lots of critters still roaming the washes and trails, and soft warm air - it is a truly beautiful time to be out.
You can do stuff outside around sunset too... You don't have to do everything at sunrise. And it's more June through September. Nothing wrong with April-May, and October.
Eight months of decent weather works for me. That's better than 5-6.
HomerJ wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 10:39 pmBut yeah you stay inside most of the time during the summer... Just like you stay inside most of the time in the winter in northern cities.

Big difference is that at least the sky outside your window is blue, instead of grey overcast, AND you can go outside comfortably when the sun is down (no such relief in the winter in the northern cities).
Plus there is no commuting in dangerous snowy/icy road conditions.
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pm OP, thought I'd respond with some feedback:

On this site, Phoenix tends to typically get less than desirable "reviews" because of the weather. Unless you looking at places in California/Hawaii (and a few others) any place will have a weather compromise at some time of the year and essentially it is simply a trade off (cold winters or hot summers). I go on further to say that many on the site will list places that by more objective data (see weatherspark for example) will show you that when people start talking about "mild" winters in places, they are kidding themselves that it pleasant in the winter. Basically when places get snow and go below freezing at night, they are cold even if they are not Fargo, ND cold. They become the same as Phoenix summers in that it becomes essentially not comfortable to be outside. Even the poster above lives in an area of AZ that has compromise at 5,000 ft and it gets snow/cold and limiting in the winters. People can act otherwise, but that is the reality of "mild winters." I put my money where my mouth is because I have a 2nd home in Phoenix to escape from limiting "mild" cold weather in the winters. In fact, saw a recent post of someone having somewhat similar setup, in this case a home in Bend,OR ("mild winter) and a 2nd home in Phoenix. Yeah one can theoretically go out and bike in a "mild" winter, but for most normal people, biking drops off pretty quickly when the highs only hit the 50's in the day and that's an objective statement.
I wouldn't mind trading 4-5 months of cold/snow/ice for four months of extremely hot weather. At least there would be sunshine for most of the year. Perhaps I change my tune if I actually lived there, but I have dealt with winter weather for all of my life.
IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pmPhoenix has many areas, and it has a very unique situation, it allows one to change elevations in a reasonable drive (say under 2 hrs) where one can go from great winter 70 degree bike/hike location and be up at "mild winter" areas with snow on the ground and skiing nearby. All that occurs with unique geographic areas in between. Quite a relatively unique situation in the country. One can tolerate the hot season by doing things that make hot weather tolerable outdoors (such as jet skiing/boating/SUP/kayaking/swimming) or by escaping at times with a quick easy drive up to higher elevations to places like Sedona, Prescott, Flagstaff, Showlow and the great activities offered by those areas. Arizona in my opinion is one of the best states for various recreational activities, sort of like CA, but less driving to get to the various areas.
Interesting how the climate varies within a relatively short distance.
IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pmCrime concerns? I guess there are stats one can find of "concern" but from a realistic perspective, I suspect those statistics are localized to certain areas and I wouldn't personally rank crime a concern for most living in most areas.

I can't speak of tech specifics in Phoenix or other cities outside what is commonly known for places like Austin/Silicon Valley, but I do know that there is a huge chip maker developing a facility in North Phoenix.

Dating? Not sure about that nowadays, but isn't that mostly on-line?
Not looking to open up another can of worms but online dating isn't what it used to be. I will just leave it at that.
IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pm Housing: Pretty reasonable by most standards.
How are taxes?
IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pm Visiting family from the location. Here's where I'd try to make a life where they had a reason to come visit me. In your situation, seems like having family come out in the winters. That's a big one from a career of living away geographically from family and all the vacation time/money spent simply to remain in closer contact/relations with family. If you going to move away, make it somewhere they will want to come to YOU.
Interesting perspective. That sounds like a good idea although it could tempt some family members to overstay their welcome, which a couple of them surely would. :)
IMO wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 11:19 pmUltimately, there are many many factors when considering moving and it is very personal. My post isn't to convince you to move to Phoenix, but instead to hopefully put it in a more reasonable light if you are seriously considering it. Arizona relatively speaking has much to offer, but the grass is always greener.

One area that's not on your radar that I've spent some time visiting is actually just outside of Sacramento, CA in a place called El Dorado Hills. I liked it, nice areas near by to boat and do other water sports, apparently very near the tech communities/drivable for part time WFH/in office, weather that is reasonable in winter (yet drivable to Lake Tahoe areas), west of most forest fire smoke common in the summer, good airport access, good school districts, etc. Pretty good compromise overall IMO. Whenever I visit there, I'm always left with the feeling that this a a place my son should consider when done with college if he has the option.
Thanks for the information!
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by IMO »

Property taxes are very reasonable.

On the quick weather change via elevation: Keep in mind Phoenix is at about 1,000 ft and Flagstaff is at 7,000 ft. I can remember a discussion with someone from Phoenix who had a hard time believing that most people that live in Flagstaff don't even have A/C at their homes. Having grown up in SoCal where it never rains in the summer, I didn't even know AZ got rain in the summertime (has a monsoon season). Next time you visit Phoenix, make the drive up to Sedona and then Flagstaff and you'll probably be shocked at the weather and terrain variety. It's not unusual to run into snow just over an hour past North Phoenix in the winter during a storm. Really alot of natural beauty in the area. As Flagstaff is the gateway to the Grand Canyon, there's plenty of reasonable priced hotels to escape to be it from the summer Phoenix heat, or to make a winter ski trip up to the Snowbowl. Lots of misperceptions about AZ from those who've never lived there or have only been to Phoenix.

Phoenix is a big Southwest "hub" (they really don't have hubs) so flights are reasonable and available to most places. Southwest even started doing non-stops to Hawaii from Phoenix. Flying is fine, but it's very nice to have a quick easy summer weekend heat escape that doesn't involve an airport. The state is soon starting a huge widening of the interstate north of Phoenix to help with any periods of higher traffic (like holidays to/from Flagstaff).
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wojo8625
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by wojo8625 »

IMO wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 12:30 am Property taxes are very reasonable.

On the quick weather change via elevation: Keep in mind Phoenix is at about 1,000 ft and Flagstaff is at 7,000 ft. I can remember a discussion with someone from Phoenix who had a hard time believing that most people that live in Flagstaff don't even have A/C at their homes. Having grown up in SoCal where it never rains in the summer, I didn't even know AZ got rain in the summertime (has a monsoon season). Next time you visit Phoenix, make the drive up to Sedona and then Flagstaff and you'll probably be shocked at the weather and terrain variety. It's not unusual to run into snow just over an hour past North Phoenix in the winter during a storm. Really alot of natural beauty in the area. As Flagstaff is the gateway to the Grand Canyon, there's plenty of reasonable priced hotels to escape to be it from the summer Phoenix heat, or to make a winter ski trip up to the Snowbowl. Lots of misperceptions about AZ from those who've never lived there or have only been to Phoenix.
I was there a few years back (late Feb) and north Phoenix actually had a dusting of snow. Snow is what I was trying to escape from lol. Seems that it is very rare for that to happen, especially that time of the year. I remember watching the news and there were some cold temps and several feet of snow in Flagstaff at the time.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by finingo »

I would consider Seattle eastside (Redmond, Bellevue, Kirkland, Issaquah). If you want city life, the city is good too. Most top tech companies have large presences. Compensation is very competitive and combined with no income tax will more than make up for the 2500-3500 rent. Check http://levels.fyi. There are mountains with great hiking in every direction. We hike every weekend (low elevation outside summer). The winters (40-45 highs) and summers (70-75) are mild. Winters are gray with a mist, but very green and lush. Summers are sunny and dry. Spring and fall are long seasons here. The east side has low crime and isn’t as dense. Aside from all the great activities in the city, there are so many things you can do in a day trip or long weekend (alpine hikes, skiing, San Juan islands, multiple national parks, kayaking, ocean beaches, Portland, Vancouver, ..).
Valuethinker
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Valuethinker »

livesoft wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 5:26 pm
wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:39 pmWhat's in Pittsburgh? When I think Pittsburgh, I think rust belt and steel mills.
Tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather

I am unaware of any steel mills in Pittsburgh. That's another era.
Pittsburgh is long past being a steel town.

Pittsburgh has a lot of healthcare employers. Also (I think) a fair few tech employers. The reason being Carnegie Mellon University which ranks in the top 3 (?) maybe in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering in the USA (not sure how one ranks between CMU, UC Berkeley, Stanford, MIT, UI Champagne-Urbana). Not everyone moves away after college - so employers have operations there.

It also has (I am told by a tech friend who lives there) some of the most affordable housing of any large city in America. He has a big split level in the trees with acreage but is c 30-45 mins from work.

Weather is... Midwestern. Cold and snowy in winter, hot and humid in summer. It's not worse than other places in the Midwest.

"Dating scene" - this obviously depends upon age. Also what activities will you undertake?

I have a friend who has lived there for over 20 years - he moved to LA region for a job but came back after about 3 years. He has a passion for ice hockey and plays in a league for older players. Also he loves the access to outdoors.

Among midwestern cities I would rank it very highly as a potential place to live.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Valuethinker »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:15 pm I have been thinking about relocating to a large (or larger) city and have my list narrowed down to the following:

Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago
Phoenix
Las Vegas
Madison, WI
Indianapolis

Some criteria that I am considering: tech job opportunities, dating scene, low crime, nearby biking/hiking trails, affordable housing, and good weather (I tend to prefer warmer weather although I wouldn't rule out a "colder" city if it otherwise meets my standards).

If anyone has lived in or know much about any of these cities, feel free to chime in. Thanks!
These cities are radically different on a number of dimensions.

I don't know what the life is like in Las Vegas. It's my sense people move there because of the high wages for ordinary people (I believe the casinos are all union labor?) and low cost of housing relative to Southern California. Also perhaps for retirement purposes (a bit like Phoenix).

Perhaps a good place to raise a family. But for a single person? Drinking and gambling must get old, very fast.

There will be outdoor activities in desert, of course.
Valuethinker
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Valuethinker »

https://jabberwocking.com/nyt-says-irvi ... me-for-me/

linked through from that blog post is a New York Times' "where should I live?" location selector.

I would recommend trying it with no restriction where in Continental USA you live. Then from the subset it generates, you can narrow down to whether the location works for you in terms of family.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by JPM »

Midwestern winters are a lot more tolerable with a reliable car and good winter gear. Without either one, the winters can be miserable. With both, you can enjoy winter. Madison and Minneapolis residents enjoy outdoor winter activities with friends but good cold weather gear is a must for that. The old beaters and flimsy cold weather gear consonant with BH philosophy not advisable, though I have found great inexpensive cold weather gear second hand at the Sallies.

Cold hardiness is definitely a thing in 'sconsin and Mn. A January jog in shorts and a sweatshirt, teenage boys daring each other to be the first to get wet in the lake in 50 degree spring/fall weather, when the lakes are cold, etc. But then some people move back here from Phoenix and Sarasota because they can't stand the summers there.

That said, Madison checks all OP's boxes except warm winters. There are some great tech jobs, but can be hard to crack in at places like Epic. OP describes his tech skills as intermediate, and could probably work anywhere in the country in a healthcare setting.
Valuethinker
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Valuethinker »

JPM wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 6:31 am Midwestern winters are a lot more tolerable with a reliable car and good winter gear. Without either one, the winters can be miserable. With both, you can enjoy winter. Madison and Minneapolis residents enjoy outdoor winter activities with friends but good cold weather gear is a must for that. The old beaters and flimsy cold weather gear consonant with BH philosophy not advisable, though I have found great inexpensive cold weather gear second hand at the Sallies.

Cold hardiness is definitely a thing in 'sconsin and Mn. A January jog in shorts and a sweatshirt, teenage boys daring each other to be the first to get wet in the lake in 50 degree spring/fall weather, when the lakes are cold, etc. But then some people move back here from Phoenix and Sarasota because they can't stand the summers there.

That said, Madison checks all OP's boxes except warm winters. There are some great tech jobs, but can be hard to crack in at places like Epic. OP describes his tech skills as intermediate, and could probably work anywhere in the country in a healthcare setting.
Mosquitoes.

I don't know Minneapolis but I do know Winnipeg, Manitoba. And it has mosquitoes - and so does all the Lake Superior country (Lake of the Woods etc).

How bad are they in Wisconsin and Minnesota?

Another thing I had heard about Minneapolis is that people are very reserved - perhaps a culture set by the many Scandinavians who emigrated there? So it can be hard to break in?
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by cbs2002 »

Chicago is so different from all the other places on your list.

Cost of living is not high relative to NYC and Bay Area. You get way more space for your money in Chicago. Relative to Indianapolis and Pittsburgh, it's high.

People move to Chicago because of the food, music, art, networking and economic opportunity that comes at a lower cost than VHCOL cities. You can do basically anything in Chicago except climb a mountain. People tolerate the weather, taxes and density because those other things are off the charts. If "crime" is something you think about as a factor in where you live, it would rule out all the largest cities in the U.S.

Madison feels like a big small town but with near-Chicago prices. Indy has some things going for it and it's further south so the winters are not quite so cold.

Others have mentioned it but I'll second with your priorities that Charlotte could be a good fit.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by Dave55 »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:20 pm
UpperNwGuy wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 3:11 pm Cincinnati
Knoxville, TN
Chicago — too cold in the winter
Phoenix — mighty hot in the summer
Las Vegas — mighty hot in the summer, and has an economy based on gambling
Madison, WI — too cold in the winter
Indianapolis — too cold in the winter

Looks like Cincinnati or Knoxville.

You could do better than this list.
Any other suggestions welcome.
https://www.bestplaces.net
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by GoldenFinch »

wojo8625 wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 1:39 pm
livesoft wrote: Thu Nov 25, 2021 12:26 pm I would rate them as all somewhat different from each other. I would not desire to live in any of them myself. So there's that.

BTW, what happened to Pittsburgh for you?
What's in Pittsburgh? When I think Pittsburgh, I think rust belt and steel mills.
I used to think that too, until I went there. It’s actually really nice. Unlike Cleveland, Pittsburg succeeded in remaking itself. I’m pretty sure that any bad perceptions are based on what it used to be. If you like the Midwest, it’s probably worth considering.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by sschoe2 »

I live in the Chicago area and it fails in crime and weather but my biggest issue is with the government here which I can not really talk about here without breaking board rules on both politics and swearing. I will say they are a major cost and quality of life issue to the residents here who are steadily leaving. I stay here because I have a job in one of the outer suburbs that is well paying and very hard to get in my profession. I am looking forward to leaving the state when I retire maybe in 10 years or so.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by jabberwockOG »

If you can deal with being in a big city and the traffic that it entails, I'd pick Atlanta. Big variety and volume of tech jobs, lots of fit attractive folks, still growing, wonderful climate especially fall, winter and spring, lovely scenery, easy to get to weekend trips to beach, mountains, white water, hiking. Charlotte and Raleigh should also be considered. I'd personally avoid all the rust belt cities like Chicago, Madison, etc - chilly in winter?...translation - cold miserable and gray for months at a time.

Pay attention to the stats that show net outflows or little to no growth (people leaving) from certain cities. There are generally good reasons people leave them.
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Re: How would you rate the following cities?

Post by sneakboxer »

I have been moving as a work requirement every 2-3 years for the last two decades. I take 10 or so locations and then 10-15 things I deem important and make a chart/matrix. Each topic gets a ranked value 1-10 and then I total up the location's score. That may help you narrow down your list to say a top three anyway. It a pretty personal decision in the end. You may value dating over insurance cost or biking over crime rate, that's your call. I'm not a city guy but its hard to beat the PNW for outdoor activities. Pittsburgh has the Laurel Highlands and Allegheny National forest well within striking distance.
Good luck in your search.
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