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phositadc
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Post by phositadc »

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oxothuk
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by oxothuk »

phositadc wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:43 pm I've seen a lot recently about poor air quality in Denver -- ozone, smog, smoke, particles, etc.

To the people who live there -- how bad is it in reality? How many days per year is it so bad that an average person, of average health, would actually want to try to stay indoors to avoid the outdoor air?

Just curious if the folks who live there basically do whatever they want and go outside whenever they please, or if there is a significant number of you that actually make an effort to stay inside to avoid poor air quality. Would also be interested in hearing from people with kids.

BTW, is it safe to assume that articles about Denver air quality apply more or less equally to everywhere around Denver, as well -- Golden, Centennial, etc?

Thanks for any input.
In normal years the air quality is pretty good most of the time. During the winter we sometimes have a "brown cloud" when there's a temperature inversion; it's not really smog, but due to particulates which get trapped by the inversion. Local government will issue bans on fireplace use when this happens.

Summer this year and last we've had a lot of wildfire smoke, but that's not specific to Denver - much of the western US has been affected.

I don't have kids at home now, but when I did I can't ever recall restricting their activity due to air quality.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by hunoraut »

unless this is a recent phenomenon, i'd never thought of or heard of such concerns when i lived there. beautiful air and beautiful climate pretty much year round.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by mhc »

I do not live in the Denver metro area, but I do live between Denver and Cheyenne. Last year was absolutely horrible. Ash was falling from the sky. There were days that were dark because of the smoke. It was so dark you could not see the sun. It lasted for several months. It was not safe to go outside some days.

I have lived on the front range for a little over 20 years. There have been 2 really bad years when we had to restrict outside activities. When there are large fires just west of you in the mountains, it can get pretty bad, especially, when you can stand on your front porch and see the flames. It is too bad that the fires happen in the summers because the summers are so nice here.

Most years there are no issues. Some years there can be a haze some days. I would not worry about it unless you have a condition that makes this risky for you.

Because it is so dry here, there can be a lot of dust in the air. You can tell when it rains a few drops every day in the summer during monsoon season. You get nice dirt spots all over your car. You will also learn about virga.

We get a lot of ozone days, but our elevation plays into that.
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Not bad, in my opinion

Post by Bogle7 »

How to keep tabs on Denver air quality and figure out when to maybe stay inside
https://denverite.com/2020/08/31/denver ... rs-to-use/

If you want a general idea about air quality in Denver, the EPA’s AirNow portal or Colorado’s air quality site will get the job done.
https://www.colorado.gov/airquality/air_quality.aspx

If you want to see AQI peaks in real time, or which corners of the city are breathing easier, take a look at PurpleAir’s sensor map. You can see AQI averaged over time or as minute-to-minute readings. One caveat: The numbers may be a bit higher than official EPA readings.
https://www.purpleair.com/map?opt=1/mAQ ... /-104.9086

A better place to ask your question—https://www.city-data.com/forum/denver/
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squirm
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by squirm »

Look at the air quality maps.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by FireSekr »

I live near Boulder and have never looked at an air forecast when deciding what outdoor activities to do.

Last year around end of August there were some terrible fires in the area and you could see smoke everywhere. We stayed inside for maybe 2 weeks or so until that cleared up but aside from that, it has never been a consideration for me.

Moving to Colorado has been one of the best decisions I have ever made. Truly a great place to be. I can’t speak specifically to Denver as I’ve probably only gone down there 3 or 4 times in the last year.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Brian2d »

I live in the Denver area and it was a great decision. Normally air quality is not a concern, the smog of years past has largely been resolved. That said wildfire smoke can be an issue - last October was especially bad - though otherwise it hasn't stopped me from doing anything.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by RickBoglehead »

hunoraut wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:00 pm unless this is a recent phenomenon, i'd never thought of or heard of such concerns when i lived there. beautiful air and beautiful climate pretty much year round.
Really?

We ski out west, and this has been a well publicized issue for as long as I can remember, i.e. 40+ years. :?:
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by quantAndHold »

Air quality was a problem, especially in the winter, back in the 80’s. It isn’t like that anymore.

In recent years, Denver has had occasional wildfire related air quality problems the same as everywhere else in the western US.

Of all the reasons to not live in Denver (which is, for the most part, a lovely place, BTW), air quality isn’t even in the top ten.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Bogle7 »

quantAndHold wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:41 pm back in the 80’s.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by HawkeyePierce »

There are four issues regarding air quality in the Denver area:

1) Ozone. This can get *bad* in the summer. In the last few weeks our AQI has been as high as 130 due to ozone. Really only an issue in the evenings and early nights.

2) Wildfires. We get smoke from as far away as British Colombia, to say nothing of local fires. There were some long stretches last year where the entire region reeked of smoke.

3) Point source pollution. Don't live in Commerce City or downwind of Suncor.

4) Greeley. In Boulder county, the smell of cow manure drifting over from Greeley in winter means a snow is coming.

I wouldn't let this dissuade you from moving here, but you should strongly consider HEPA filters if you do, either inline in your HVAC or as standalone air purifiers.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Williams57 »

Western US and Canadian wildfires, plus local ones made the air quality terrible last summer and fall. It was quite noticeable in Denver.
This year it hasn't been as bad, but it's not great. I live in west Denver (closer to the mountains) and I don't see the mountains that well, you can tell they are there though.
I do not see this improving going forward, probably going to get worse every year. I considered moving, but you can't really escape climate change unless you move to a different planet. I don't think there will be places that will fare significantly better overall.

So all in all I'd say it's still worth moving, every place will be somewhat screwed in one way or another. Denver is a good place.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Valuethinker »

phositadc wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 2:43 pm I've seen a lot recently about poor air quality in Denver -- ozone, smog, smoke, particles, etc.

To the people who live there -- how bad is it in reality? How many days per year is it so bad that an average person, of average health, would actually want to try to stay indoors to avoid the outdoor air?

Just curious if the folks who live there basically do whatever they want and go outside whenever they please, or if there is a significant number of you that actually make an effort to stay inside to avoid poor air quality. Would also be interested in hearing from people with kids.

BTW, is it safe to assume that articles about Denver air quality apply more or less equally to everywhere around Denver, as well -- Golden, Centennial, etc?

Thanks for any input.

https://www.amazon.com/Invisible-Killer ... 1911545191 is a fantastic general read on the problem of air pollution. May be too UK-London centric (he's a professor of air pollution science at University College, U of London).

The problem of microparticles is a lot worse than we thought. PM2.5 and below size. Wood fires are a huge contributor, number 2 in some cities after diesel exhaust. The health impacts are much worse than we thought.

As EVs increase, it may be that Denver's air problems get better BUT a lot of the problem with vehicles is dust from brakes, which of course won't go away.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Valuethinker »

Williams57 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:56 pm Western US and Canadian wildfires, plus local ones made the air quality terrible last summer and fall. It was quite noticeable in Denver.
This year it hasn't been as bad, but it's not great. I live in west Denver (closer to the mountains) and I don't see the mountains that well, you can tell they are there though.
I do not see this improving going forward, probably going to get worse every year. I considered moving, but you can't really escape climate change unless you move to a different planet. I don't think there will be places that will fare significantly better overall.

So all in all I'd say it's still worth moving, every place will be somewhat screwed in one way or another. Denver is a good place.
My understanding is with Denver is that it is subject to temperature inversions? Essentially because it is a bowl up against the mountains?

So it has a lot of bad air quality days?

The good news is visible pollution tends to motivate citizens to want to do something about it.

It's always a tradeoff.

London has terrible air due to the rise of diesel cars, wood fires in renovated homes, general traffic etc. I carry an inhaler, which I never did before I moved here - uncontrollable coughing, often on the Tube (subway).

But it's still an amazing city and one of the few places in the world I can imagine would satisfy me. I feel very lucky to be able to live here -- moved here when housing prices were relatively low during the slump of the early 1990s. But the particulates are, invisibly, hurting my health. (I happen to live in an elevated part of London, which was more my concern for future flooding than air quality, but it probably does help on the air quality).
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by hunoraut »

Interesting little deep dive.

Here you can get the all air quality trend from 1990-2020

https://www.epa.gov/air-trends/air-qual ... d-counties

The PM2.5 particulate annual mean for Denver metroplex trended from 9s-->7-->6s from 2000-->2010-->now.

For comparison DFW is 13/10/9; Cleveland 17/12/8; Chicago 15/13/8; Charleston 13/9/7; Boston 12/8/6; Anchorage 6/7/5; Miami 9/7/7; SF 11/8/10; SEATAC 12/7/9; Tucson 7/5/5; Honolulu 4s/6/3s; SLC 11/10/7.

National mean went from 13.5/10/8
Southwest mean went from 9/7/7


Of course there are other measures like NO2, CO, etc...
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by hunoraut »

RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:05 pm
Really?

We ski out west, and this has been a well publicized issue for as long as I can remember, i.e. 40+ years. :?:
Western region as defined by EPA (CA+NV) averaged 14/9/11 for the metric and timeline posted above.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by RickBoglehead »

hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 5:34 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 7:05 pm
Really?

We ski out west, and this has been a well publicized issue for as long as I can remember, i.e. 40+ years. :?:
Western region as defined by EPA (CA+NV) averaged 14/9/11 for the metric and timeline posted above.
I meant the fact that Denver has air pollution problems. By the way, been in SLC in winter when an inversion happened. Not pretty.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by hunoraut »

RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:29 am I meant the fact that Denver has air pollution problems. By the way, been in SLC in winter when an inversion happened. Not pretty.
Which pollution and when? Over time Denver area has had lower particulate pollution than its region (SW), the Western region, and the nation as a whole
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by RickBoglehead »

hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:32 am
RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:29 am I meant the fact that Denver has air pollution problems. By the way, been in SLC in winter when an inversion happened. Not pretty.
Which pollution and when? Over time Denver area has had lower particulate pollution than its region (SW), the Western region, and the nation as a whole
https://www.denverpost.com/2020/01/30/d ... st-cities/

My point was that your statement that you never heard of such concerns was very surprising to me. As a person that has been skiing out west (mostly Denver and Salt Lake City) for 45+ years, it is a well known fact that Denver had a pollution problem, exacerbated in winter by temperature in erosion.

If a person that visits the area maybe 1 week a year knows well of the issue, how can someone live there yet not know of it?

Whether it is better today then it was 20 years ago is irrelevant to having lived there and professing to not know of the issue.

Major cities in some US states have mandate emission inspections required by the Clean Air Act. Colorado has multiple counties on the list, I assume because the mountains hold stuff in? Many states have no mandated emission inspections.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by hunoraut »

RickBoglehead wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:36 am My point was that your statement that you never heard of such concerns was very surprising to me. As a person that has been skiing out west (mostly Denver and Salt Lake City) for 45+ years, it is a well known fact that Denver had a pollution problem
You must first prove the fact, which should be easy if it's well-known.
exacerbated in winter by temperature in erosion.
EPA data on seasonality shows the exact opposite

Image
Whether it is better today then it was 20 years ago is irrelevant to having lived there and professing to not know of the issue.
It was to show comparative data between locations across multiple time periods, not just a single one.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by notBobToo »

When I first moved to the (north of) Denver area in the late 80s, one of my neighbors left for Arizona the first of October and returned the first of April primarily to get away from the air quality issues. For him, the poor air was just too much to take. In the winter, the inversion, trapping "normal" emissions was compounded by wood burning fireplaces during the fall and winter.

The inversion, the very dirty air, was most dramatically brought home to me when going skiing, exiting the tunnel into Summit county and seeing the result of crystal clear air -- beautiful blue skies, white (!) snow, etc. It was like one of those frescos cleaned up, then just popping off the wall.

When I lived south of Denver, up until the late 2010s, at about 6000 feet, there were many days that you could look north to the city and see the brown cloud, just socked in and dirty looking snow in the foothills.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Williams57 »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:21 am
Williams57 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 10:56 pm Western US and Canadian wildfires, plus local ones made the air quality terrible last summer and fall. It was quite noticeable in Denver.
This year it hasn't been as bad, but it's not great. I live in west Denver (closer to the mountains) and I don't see the mountains that well, you can tell they are there though.
I do not see this improving going forward, probably going to get worse every year. I considered moving, but you can't really escape climate change unless you move to a different planet. I don't think there will be places that will fare significantly better overall.

So all in all I'd say it's still worth moving, every place will be somewhat screwed in one way or another. Denver is a good place.
My understanding is with Denver is that it is subject to temperature inversions? Essentially because it is a bowl up against the mountains?

So it has a lot of bad air quality days?

The good news is visible pollution tends to motivate citizens to want to do something about it.

It's always a tradeoff.

London has terrible air due to the rise of diesel cars, wood fires in renovated homes, general traffic etc. I carry an inhaler, which I never did before I moved here - uncontrollable coughing, often on the Tube (subway).

But it's still an amazing city and one of the few places in the world I can imagine would satisfy me. I feel very lucky to be able to live here -- moved here when housing prices were relatively low during the slump of the early 1990s. But the particulates are, invisibly, hurting my health. (I happen to live in an elevated part of London, which was more my concern for future flooding than air quality, but it probably does help on the air quality).
Inversion is a problem too, yeah.

I don't really follow the air quality reports. But I see what I see
Been here for 15 years, and it's gotten way worse due to wildfires in the summer/fall. Not just national, but also Canadian. As said earlier, not planning to move though. Cannot escape it, in one place it's air, in the other it's floods, etc.

I liked London!
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by oxothuk »

Valuethinker wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:17 am As EVs increase, it may be that Denver's air problems get better BUT a lot of the problem with vehicles is dust from brakes, which of course won't go away.
EVs have regenerative braking, so they will produce much less brake dust than the ICE cars they replace.
Last edited by oxothuk on Mon Aug 02, 2021 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by quantAndHold »

Bogle7 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:55 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:41 pm back in the 80’s.
80s
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by telemark »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:00 am
Bogle7 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:55 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:41 pm back in the 80s.
80s
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Brought to you by the internet grammar police.
http://skin-horse.com/comic/the-new-2/

(link to site with copyrighted image)

Anyway, shouldn't it be '80s, since the 19 is elided?
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by WhyNotUs »

Wildfire and heat have led to record setting number of ozone alert days this summer.
I am in the mountains rather than in Denver but go there regularly.
The air quality in the mountains has been poor as well with smoke.

Just came across this:
https://www.cpr.org/2021/07/30/colorado ... -problems/
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Colorado14 »

On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Californiastate »

Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Please qualify your response. There are many cities and towns in the path of the Dixie Fire that would beg to differ.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Flobes »

Californiastate wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:32 am
Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Please qualify your response. There are many cities and towns in the path of the Dixie Fire that would beg to differ.
CNN:
Denver experienced the worst air quality of any major city in the world due to smoke from western wildfires


Denver Post: Denver ranks No. 1 in list of international cities for air pollution

Check out the national smoke map. Smoke moves and accumulates, often in unexpected ways.

I'm in western mountains of Colorado. Far from any major fires. Yesterday morning, our air quality was an unhealthy 256, outside it looked like fog, and it smelled like a campfire.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by HomerJ »

Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Heh, I'm guessing the towns that BURNED down on Saturday had worse air quality that day.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Colorado14 »

Flobes wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:53 am
Californiastate wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:32 am
Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Please qualify your response. There are many cities and towns in the path of the Dixie Fire that would beg to differ.
CNN:
Denver experienced the worst air quality of any major city in the world due to smoke from western wildfires


Denver Post: Denver ranks No. 1 in list of international cities for air pollution

Check out the national smoke map. Smoke moves and accumulates, often in unexpected ways.

I'm in western mountains of Colorado. Far from any major fires. Yesterday morning, our air quality was an unhealthy 256, outside it looked like fog, and it smelled like a campfire.
Thank you Flobes. Ii should have realized that some people would be skeptical, so appreciate your follow up. Maybe Californiastate wants to remove his/her snarky post?
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Colorado14 »

HomerJ wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:19 am
Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Heh, I'm guessing the towns that BURNED down on Saturday had worse air quality that day.
I almost never disagree with HomerJ and appreciate his/her many contributions to these forums. Yet the scientists didn't guess on this; they measure air quality. Your guess is actually incorrect.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by HomerJ »

Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:27 am
HomerJ wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:19 am
Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Heh, I'm guessing the towns that BURNED down on Saturday had worse air quality that day.
I almost never disagree with HomerJ and appreciate his/her many contributions to these forums. Yet the scientists didn't guess on this; they measure air quality. Your guess is actually incorrect.
:)

I guess they are technically correct (my favorite kind of correct!) depending on what metric they were using.

But I know it was easier to breathe the air in Denver than in Greenville CA on that day and less harmful. :(
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by telemark »

Worst air quality in the world for a major city in places where it's measured regularly. Salt Lake City had that dubious honor for a day last week. But the air is indeed far worse in some places that are not major cities: as of 9AM PDT today, Chester, CA has a PM2.5 AQI of 820 (which is off the index). See

https://www.airnow.gov/national-maps/
https://www.airnow.gov/?reportingArea=C ... ateCode=CA

And if you go to the live city ranking at https://www.iqair.com/us/, Krasnoyarsk, Russia is a strong contender at 651 US AQI.

But you know, guys, it's not a competition.
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Californiastate »

Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:24 am
Flobes wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:53 am
Californiastate wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:32 am
Colorado13 wrote: Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:21 am On Saturday August 7, Denver had the worst air quality in the WORLD. Yesterday we had the second worst air quality in the world. :-(
Please qualify your response. There are many cities and towns in the path of the Dixie Fire that would beg to differ.
CNN:
Denver experienced the worst air quality of any major city in the world due to smoke from western wildfires


Denver Post: Denver ranks No. 1 in list of international cities for air pollution

Check out the national smoke map. Smoke moves and accumulates, often in unexpected ways.

I'm in western mountains of Colorado. Far from any major fires. Yesterday morning, our air quality was an unhealthy 256, outside it looked like fog, and it smelled like a campfire.
Thank you Flobes. Ii should have realized that some people would be skeptical, so appreciate your follow up. Maybe Californiastate wants to remove his/her snarky post?
It's important to keep facts as facts. Blanket statements don't educate anybody. Denver was listed as the worst large city. I'm not sure what qualifies as a large city but Chester obviously doesn't pass muster. I have family in Golden. I keep an eye on their weather and air quality as habit.
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telemark
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by telemark »

The reporting system is designed around the assumption that air pollution is a big city problem, caused by activities in and around those cities. Wildfire smoke blowing all over everywhere doesn't fit this model and leads to anomalous reporting.
Valuethinker
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Re: People who live in the Denver area -- how bad is the air quality, really?

Post by Valuethinker »

quantAndHold wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:00 am
Bogle7 wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 9:55 pm
quantAndHold wrote: Sun Aug 01, 2021 8:41 pm back in the 80’s.
80s
Brought to you by the Committee to Save the Apostrophe from Abuse.
Brought to you by the internet grammar police.
The Autocorrect (widely known as the "auto Incorrect") on mobile phones tends to apostrophise in truly annoying ways. It's clear it follows inexact modern usage, rather than the correct grammatical rules (or just doesn't care). Its becomes it's etc.

It's easy not to catch it.

Worst one I have is it excepts ( ;-) ) "Yo" as a word (when I mean to). And "fir" (when I mean for).
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