Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

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28fe6
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Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by 28fe6 »

I have two outside hose bibs on my house. Both of them are over top of concrete patios that I don't want getting wet...I have rugs and wood furniture there. So they are useless unless I can figure out a way to make them work without getting water everywhere.

First of all, most of these types of hose bibs just plain leak around the valve stems. You can re-pack them, but they still leak, at least eventually. So I'm looking for a different type of valve, like a ball valve that won't leak around the packing.

Second, with modern building codes, all these exterior hose bibs need to have anti-siphon features on them. This means that when I turn off the valve, water sprays out everyone from the anti-siphon even if the valve itself doesn't leak. If I hang the hose up, the entire hose of water drains out onto the patio through the anti-siphon valve. Bad again.

My first thought is to remove the current hose bibs and hard-plumb an extension with copper or PEX pipe over to the side of the house away from the patio. However, that would leave the extension piping vulnerable to freezing unless I drained it really dilligently in the fall.

I could also just replace the hose bibs with a simple ball valve and no anti-siphon valve. However that would also freeze in the winter unless I crawl into my crawspace to turn it off.

Is it really true that nobody has made a frost-free hose bib that meets code and doesn't leak and spray water everywhere?
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lthenderson
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Location: Iowa

Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by lthenderson »

I'm not aware of hose bibs with ball valves simply because they can't be freeze proof since the valve itself would be on the outside of the house. They do make ball valves that will accept a standard hose but you run the risk of it freezing up so if I were to go that route in a climate with freezing during the winter, you would need a second valve somewhere inside the house and have the ability to close it, open up the outside valve and let the water drain out before winter.

Can't really help you on the never leaking issue but I have seen leaks created by poor installation. If the hose bib is soldered to interior piping, you need to remove the valve before doing so or the heat of the soldering process can destroy the plastic gasket inside causing it to leak from the start. Eventually, those plastic gaskets though get brittle with age and can build up debris on them causing them to not work well but they sell kits of standard replacement parts for the large majority of them and it is a five minute job to replace them every few years. I try to stay away from ones with plastic handles and go with the ones with rubber coated metal handles. My theory is that if a manufacturer is okay with the extra expense, it is probably well built as a result. You might get better quality that way.

I wouldn't add any exterior piping on the outside of your house in a climate that freezes. You are risking a lot if you ever forget or get caught by surprise when the weather turns cold while away on a vacation. A hefty water bill at the least, flooded basement at the worst. Also could make the next owner's life a bit difficult if they bought a house that required maintenance before every winter that they might not have known about. If at all possible, I would reroute the piping in the interior of your house and just put the bib in a new location away from the patio.
Last edited by lthenderson on Wed Jul 21, 2021 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
quantAndHold
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by quantAndHold »

I would check with a plumber. They shouldn’t leak and competent installation of decent parts should fix that, but we also aren’t required to have those stupid anti-siphon valves that spray you in the shins every time you turn the water off. I would ask a plumber if there’s something else that meets code that he could use.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
Normchad
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by Normchad »

On my hose bibs, the anti-siphon piece can be removed/unscrewed. By doing so, you are left with a plain old fashion out door faucet.

I don’t recommend this. But it can be done….

This is what mine look like: https://www.lowes.com/pd/ProPlumber-Bra ... er/4330066
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gwe67
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by gwe67 »

I use these:

3/4" Quarter Turn Hose Bibb FIP
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052EDGYQ/

Really easy to turn on and off. Don't meet plumbing code but I will replace when selling the house.

along with these:

Easy Slide Tight Faucet Cover for Outdoor Faucet Insulation
https://www.amazon.com/Duck-Brand-Fauce ... pldnSite=1

Have had no issues with temps down to zero F.
VTI 48%, VXUS 12%, BND 40%
chemocean
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by chemocean »

The seat as part of the internal fixture into which the anti-siphon/anti-freezing removable valve closes against degrades over time. So even replacing the gaskets of the removable valve won't help secure the seal. I had to replace the entire fixture from within the crawl space. Sure enough the internal seat of the leaking bib was completed degraded.
mpnret
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by mpnret »

Quick and dirty fix to your problem is to just add a ball valve to your existing freeze proof code compliant valve. Just unscrew it in the winter. Many variations are available from stainless steel to brass to plastic, even splitters that allow multiple hose connections. After all it's the constant turning on and off of your existing valve that is causing the leaks you are experiencing. Actually I use the double version in the link below so I can turn my hose on and off while keeping my water scare crow on all the time.
https://www.amazon.com/Dramm-114960-036 ... 230&sr=8-7
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Tubes
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by Tubes »

mpnret wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 7:07 am Quick and dirty fix to your problem is to just add a ball valve to your existing freeze proof code compliant valve. Just unscrew it in the winter. Many variations are available from stainless steel to brass to plastic, even splitters that allow multiple hose connections. After all it's the constant turning on and off of your existing valve that is causing the leaks you are experiencing. Actually I use the double version in the link below so I can turn my hose on and off while keeping my water scare crow on all the time.
https://www.amazon.com/Dramm-114960-036 ... 230&sr=8-7
THIS is the answer. It is quick and easy, and code compliant. You leave the main valve turned on all the time and use this extra valve to control flow. The backflow won't trigger since it always is under pressure (unless of course there is a real problem that the backflow is made to handle).

I have a smaller version of the link above that is less beefy, but still does the job. It was $10. Just make sure the washers are in place and it is worth a spin of teflon tape on the threads when you install it.

Simple. Effective. Cheap.
Topic Author
28fe6
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by 28fe6 »

Sorry guys, adding a ball valve to my current hose bib won't work, and isn't code compliant either.

First of all if I add a ball valve to the current hose bib, and turn the hose bib on, the hose bib will still be leaking around the valve stem just like it does now. Adding a ball valve to the end isn't going to do anything about that.

Second, if I use an anti-siphon valve, it's still going to spray water everywhere still. Type of valve doesn't change the anti-siphon valve problem. Most people here are suggesting just to get rid of the anti-siphon valve and run the risk of backflow. I'm not sure how good of an idea that is. It seems like anti-siphon valves didn't exist until about the 90s and everyone seemed to survive without them before then.

Normal hose bibs usually leak around the valve stem because they use graphite stem packing. You can use fresh packing and adjust them every year, and you MIGHT be able to get them not to leak around the valve stem for a while, but only for a while. Usually they drip. I think in most cases people don't really care if water drips from the valve stem of a hose bib. Unless it's located on their patio and drips all over your rug.

https://www.plumberlittleton.com/stop-p ... nut-drips/

The frost-free hose bibs are actually worse for this. For the old type of hose bibs, sometimes they have a 2nd seal so that if you open the valve all the way until it stops, the secondary seal will will make contact and it won't leak around the valve stem even if the valve packing is leaky. Those type only leak while you are turning the valve or if you have the valve partially open. But the frost-free valves usually have a long valve stem that goes under the house, and the only thing sealing the valve stem is the packing which is more or less guaranteed to leak when it's under pressure.

You can see the secondary seal on a normal hose bib in the diagram on this page:

https://www.beplumbsmart.com/lets-talk- ... ose-bibbs/
jj45
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by jj45 »

Put a decorative potted plant under the bib to catch the drips?
quantAndHold
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by quantAndHold »

Usually they drip.
I’m not an expert in this stuff at all, but I have connected to a lot of hose bibs of a lot of different types when I’ve been out in my RV, and no, they don’t usually drip.

The anti-siphon valve, though, is annoying. I’ve ended up with wet shoes at every place that’s had one of those. We have a simple backflow preventer on ours at home that doesn’t siphon and spew. Would that meet code where you are?

I suppose the real solution is to realize your patio is outdoors, and to use outdoor rugs and furniture.
Yes, I’m really that pedantic.
Topic Author
28fe6
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by 28fe6 »

We have a simple backflow preventer on ours at home that doesn’t siphon and spew. Would that meet code where you are?
Can you tell me more about this? In order to work correctly, backflow preventers need to release the water. So if it doesn't release any water, then it's not really doing its job as a vacuum breaker. But if you found one that doesn't release water and actually works and is code compliant, I am very interested.
mpnret
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by mpnret »

28fe6 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:15 am Sorry guys, adding a ball valve to my current hose bib won't work, and isn't code compliant either.

First of all if I add a ball valve to the current hose bib, and turn the hose bib on, the hose bib will still be leaking around the valve stem just like it does now. Adding a ball valve to the end isn't going to do anything about that.

Second, if I use an anti-siphon valve, it's still going to spray water everywhere still. Type of valve doesn't change the anti-siphon valve problem. Most people here are suggesting just to get rid of the anti-siphon valve and run the risk of backflow. I'm not sure how good of an idea that is. It seems like anti-siphon valves didn't exist until about the 90s and everyone seemed to survive without them before then.

Normal hose bibs usually leak around the valve stem because they use graphite stem packing. You can use fresh packing and adjust them every year, and you MIGHT be able to get them not to leak around the valve stem for a while, but only for a while. Usually they drip. I think in most cases people don't really care if water drips from the valve stem of a hose bib. Unless it's located on their patio and drips all over your rug.

https://www.plumberlittleton.com/stop-p ... nut-drips/

The frost-free hose bibs are actually worse for this. For the old type of hose bibs, sometimes they have a 2nd seal so that if you open the valve all the way until it stops, the secondary seal will will make contact and it won't leak around the valve stem even if the valve packing is leaky. Those type only leak while you are turning the valve or if you have the valve partially open. But the frost-free valves usually have a long valve stem that goes under the house, and the only thing sealing the valve stem is the packing which is more or less guaranteed to leak when it's under pressure.

You can see the secondary seal on a normal hose bib in the diagram on this page:

https://www.beplumbsmart.com/lets-talk- ... ose-bibbs/
I think you are making this far more difficult than it has to be. I operate under the same scenario as you with zero issues. Plumbing code covers just that your plumbing, not your hose or devices in the hose. So a ball valve in the hose would comply. Also you didn't seem to concerned about code with the solutions you were considering in your original post which clearly weren't code compliant.
I used many of the various in hose shut off valves from the cheap plastic ones to the brass ones with no problems or drips. I have run of the mill Woodford Frost Free Anti-Siphon Sillcock valves from Home Depot with no drips or leaks. In the past when I have turned them on and off a couple of times a day they would develop a leak around the stem in a year or so. No more problems since I now use the valve in the link I posted.
mtn biker
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by mtn biker »

Adding a hose that extends past your concrete area and has a secondary valve at the end, leaving the main valve on all summer, should work well to avoid any issues with leaking on your patio.

A correctly installed valve of good quality will not leak. Period. If your valve is leaking it is poor quality or needs replacing.
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Tubes
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by Tubes »

I disagree with OP's assertion that the anti siphon will spray if you are controlling beyond the spigot. The main valve needs to be on permanently for the season.

If this didn't work, it means the anti siphon is discharging every time you have a hose attached and are controlling flow with a hose end sprayer. If that's happening, then your backflow is broken. It should only release when pressure from the main valve is shut. We're avoiding that by leaving it on all the time.

Fix the valve stem (or replace) and add a simple valve downline.
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28fe6
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by 28fe6 »

mtn biker wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:32 am Adding a hose that extends past your concrete area and has a secondary valve at the end, leaving the main valve on all summer, should work well to avoid any issues with leaking on your patio.
That will work only if I never turn the main valve off. If I ever turn the main valve off, such as to prevent the extension hose from bursting while I am away, the vacuum breaker on the main valve will still spew water. They can also spew water when somebody in the house turns on a fixture or flushes a toilet and causes a pressure drop in the house. This is normal operation and it's what vacuum breakers are designed to do. Furthermore, most backpressure-type vacuum breakers are not designed to hold continuous pressure for more than 12 hours. They are only rated for intermittent use. So leaving the hose on non-stop is a liability when using a device that specifically says not to do that. See here; they all say the same thing:

PLEASE NOTE: These ASSE 1019 devices are intended for irrigation use and outdoor watering and shall not be subjected to more than 12 hours of continuous water pressure.
The only way to stop it is to remove the vacuum breaker from the main valve (which would violate code but I may be willing to do it anyway). If I had the removeable vacuum breaker that just screw on the end of the hose bib, I could just remove it, but the frostproof hose bibs that are installed on my house have the vacuum breaker built-in, so there's no way to remove it. I can replace the whole main valve, but all of the valves available in stores now have vacuum breakers built-in also because it's a code requirement.

I'm going to replace my hose bibs with something newer, but it seems like there's no code-compliant way to eliminate the vacuum breakers spewing water all over my siding and porch (it even sprays on the nearby window and makes hard water stains), except to just un-install and relocate the hose bibs to a different part of the house where the water spraying is ok.
OpenMinded1
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by OpenMinded1 »

quantAndHold wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 9:28 am
Usually they drip.
I’m not an expert in this stuff at all, but I have connected to a lot of hose bibs of a lot of different types when I’ve been out in my RV, and no, they don’t usually drip.

The anti-siphon valve, though, is annoying. I’ve ended up with wet shoes at every place that’s had one of those. We have a simple backflow preventer on ours at home that doesn’t siphon and spew. Would that meet code where you are?

I suppose the real solution is to realize your patio is outdoors, and to use outdoor rugs and furniture.
I'll second that. Hose bibs don't usually drip. I've had the same frost proof bib for probably a dozen years, and it has never leaked around the stem or otherwise. Every so often I've had one leak out of the faucet, but that usually can be fixed by tightening the nut around the stem just a little bit.
bighatnohorse
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by bighatnohorse »

Don't buy any plumbing parts made in China. Ace Hardware has a little better quality stuff - usually made in Taiwan.
You might try adding a "splitter" after the anti-siphon, leave the bib valve open and just use the splitter valve - might work?
mpnret
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by mpnret »

28fe6 wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:16 am
mtn biker wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:32 am Adding a hose that extends past your concrete area and has a secondary valve at the end, leaving the main valve on all summer, should work well to avoid any issues with leaking on your patio.
That will work only if I never turn the main valve off. If I ever turn the main valve off, such as to prevent the extension hose from bursting while I am away, the vacuum breaker on the main valve will still spew water. They can also spew water when somebody in the house turns on a fixture or flushes a toilet and causes a pressure drop in the house. This is normal operation and it's what vacuum breakers are designed to do. Furthermore, most backpressure-type vacuum breakers are not designed to hold continuous pressure for more than 12 hours. They are only rated for intermittent use. So leaving the hose on non-stop is a liability when using a device that specifically says not to do that. See here; they all say the same thing:

PLEASE NOTE: These ASSE 1019 devices are intended for irrigation use and outdoor watering and shall not be subjected to more than 12 hours of continuous water pressure.
The only way to stop it is to remove the vacuum breaker from the main valve (which would violate code but I may be willing to do it anyway). If I had the removeable vacuum breaker that just screw on the end of the hose bib, I could just remove it, but the frostproof hose bibs that are installed on my house have the vacuum breaker built-in, so there's no way to remove it. I can replace the whole main valve, but all of the valves available in stores now have vacuum breakers built-in also because it's a code requirement.

I'm going to replace my hose bibs with something newer, but it seems like there's no code-compliant way to eliminate the vacuum breakers spewing water all over my siding and porch (it even sprays on the nearby window and makes hard water stains), except to just un-install and relocate the hose bibs to a different part of the house where the water spraying is ok.
Just go to Home Depot or Lowes and buy a run of the mill Woodford Frost Free Anti-Siphon Sillcock valve and be done with it. With constant use over time you may eventually develop a stem leak and have to tighten the packing nut a bit.
Last edited by mpnret on Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tubes
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Re: Do they make hose bibs that don't leak/spray water?

Post by Tubes »

bighatnohorse wrote: Thu Jul 22, 2021 12:34 pm Don't buy any plumbing parts made in China. Ace Hardware has a little better quality stuff - usually made in Taiwan.
You might try adding a "splitter" after the anti-siphon, leave the bib valve open and just use the splitter valve - might work?
This is the solution some of us suggested that the OP rejected. Some of us were suggesting the same kind of device but instead of a splitter, it only has one outlet.
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