Let's play chess

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weirdsong1
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by weirdsong1 »

I got seriously back into chess when I started to teach my children a few years back. Lots of great suggestions above on how to improve your play, and add me as a +1 for puzzles as the easiest way to quickly go from beginner to novice. However, I must say that one of the biggest turnoffs of chess is that it is a game that requires a significant amount of memorization. Don't fool yourself, you are at a distinct disadvantage if you haven't memorized a significant number of opening lines and move solely based the recommendation of the "book". I very much enjoy the strategic thinking, but I'm past the age where I'm interesting in rote memorization. I've followed several of the best streaming chess players out there and it never ceases to amaze me how often they say something like, "...I think this is the right the move."

With that said, I don't believe I've seen his name mentioned above, but Jeremy Silman's books on chess are really first rate. I'm especially fond of The Amateur's Mind which avoids many of the memorization-centered approaches of most other chess books I've read and focusses on evaluating the board in front of you and discusses how one might begin to formulate a proper assessment and a plan to move forward.
SrGrumpy
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:30 am I play on chess.com as well. A 3-minute blitz game is the best way I can think of to spend 6 idle minutes in the middle of the day.
I play against the computer on chess.com, the same guy every time, "Emir," in the intermediate section. It's usually pretty tight, then he does something suicidal. I should probably try a character a little more challenging. No deep tactics or strategy for me (well, not consciously).
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

weirdsong1 wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:35 am I got seriously back into chess when I started to teach my children a few years back. Lots of great suggestions above on how to improve your play, and add me as a +1 for puzzles as the easiest way to quickly go from beginner to novice. However, I must say that one of the biggest turnoffs of chess is that it is a game that requires a significant amount of memorization. Don't fool yourself, you are at a distinct disadvantage if you haven't memorized a significant number of opening lines and move solely based the recommendation of the "book". I very much enjoy the strategic thinking, but I'm past the age where I'm interesting in rote memorization. I've followed several of the best streaming chess players out there and it never ceases to amaze me how often they say something like, "...I think this is the right the move."
I agree that memorization of names to represent positions, e.g. "Sicilian defense", is one of the hardest things to do. Algebraic notation is good for location, but I don't see any other way to describe placement.
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LongRoad
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by LongRoad »

I'll agree that tactics/puzzles are useful at the beginner -- intermediate levels, mostly for developing pattern recognition. In play against other novices, you'll be able to apply the tactics you learn in many games.

Tactics exercises are still different from over the board play. In a real game, there's never a prompt on the screen that says "white to play and win," or "find the mate in three." These tactics are never available in a game until your opponent has made an error, or a series of errors.

The Jeremy Silman suggestion above is good as an additional track because the mentioned book talks about "what to do" when there simply aren't any winning tactics available on the board. Which is most of the time. At some point, learning the basics of strategy and positional play is a key to laying the groundwork to where a winning tactic might be possible.
Last edited by LongRoad on Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

Another aspect is that I have to stop worrying about my scores / ranking.

I get disheartened when I see my score drop, but have to realize that I'm learning and it's not a competition - at least at this point of the game. Relax, chill, and instead focus on understanding what went wrong.
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weirdsong1
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by weirdsong1 »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:04 am Another aspect is that I have to stop worrying about my scores / ranking.

I get disheartened when I see my score drop, but have to realize that I'm learning and it's not a competition - at least at this point of the game. Relax, chill, and instead focus on understanding what went wrong.
Yep...hard not to tie up your entire self-worth into those rating points. And nothing does as much for the spirit as walking into some mating trap on move 8 or blundering your queen.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by gerntz »

My preferred competitive mind game is duplicate bridge. Get to compare results against other pairs. More social having a partner. Variable time length of matches.
lightheir
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

weirdsong1 wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:35 am I got seriously back into chess when I started to teach my children a few years back. Lots of great suggestions above on how to improve your play, and add me as a +1 for puzzles as the easiest way to quickly go from beginner to novice. However, I must say that one of the biggest turnoffs of chess is that it is a game that requires a significant amount of memorization. Don't fool yourself, you are at a distinct disadvantage if you haven't memorized a significant number of opening lines and move solely based the recommendation of the "book". I very much enjoy the strategic thinking, but I'm past the age where I'm interesting in rote memorization. I've followed several of the best streaming chess players out there and it never ceases to amaze me how often they say something like, "...I think this is the right the move."
Chess is tons of memorization, yes, but not exactly as you describe.

The role of memorizing specific opening lines is wayyyyy overrated, even at near-expert levels. Sure, someone who knows a certain opening inside out will gain a real advantage on you in the first half of the game, and possibly even win a piece, but the game is not won in the opening, at least not for non-expert class players. (If you are a true rated master-expert player, then yes, you DO have to memorize those openings!)

You literally don't have to know openings at all if you have a strong middle/endgame as a non-expert player. You can make ridiculous opening moves, including moving your king several times for absolutely no reason, stranding him in the middle of the board without castling, but if you understand the structure, you can readily play into a closed position where noncastling is fine and the slower pace makes the king crawl almost totally ok. (Youtube has plenty of examples of GMs doing this on purpose against weaker masters and winning easily.)

Don't get sucked into the 'memorize opening lines' as a beginner-intermediate.

Probably one of the best ways for a beginner to learn openings is to just pick a well known one like the Giuoco Piano, memorize only one or two main lines, and then stick with it for awhile. Get beat by opponents gobs of ways until you are forced to learn the counters. But don't spend a ton of time studying openings - study tactics, then middlegame, then endgame, and only then, opening.

The least priority in chess as a nonexpert is memorizing specific (opening) lines. Those are the lowest yield of all study. You would do 100x better by memorizing no lines but just setting up a board 3 moves in and letting the computer crush you 25 times in a row in the opening and remembering to 'not do that next time'. You don't even need to think long or play a full game - go as far until you lose a piece and then take a look at what happened. 100x better than memorizing lines.
BatBuckeye
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by BatBuckeye »

I'm enjoying this thread.
I've been playing with 10yo grandson.
I plan to make 2 cards for him. A mulligan/undo and a change sides card.
A few times in a game I ask, "Are you sure you want to do that?". Maybe with an undo card he can make his own decision do redo that last move.
His 5yo brother has been asking me to teach him too. I was putting him off with, 'chess is hard' or 'lets play checkers'. Bad grandpa.
I think a few more games and he will learn how the pieces move.
Some thoughts I gleaned from YouTube are let the kids win once in a while and start teaching them when they ask to play.

I think the thought process of chess helped me to be a better computer programmer. I'm sure it helps develop a good thought process in kids of all ages.

It's a great day when a grandchild says, "Papaw, let's play chess".
lightheir
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

LadyGeek wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 10:04 am Another aspect is that I have to stop worrying about my scores / ranking.

I get disheartened when I see my score drop, but have to realize that I'm learning and it's not a competition - at least at this point of the game. Relax, chill, and instead focus on understanding what went wrong.
Just a heads up as well - cheating as well as sandbagging (being farrr stronger than your online rating) is a COMMON occurence in online chess. Even with the anti-cheating software. I would go so far as to say 1 in every 5-7 games I play in blitz has cheating or significant sandbagging.

The sandbagging occurs when someone who is like 1900, starts a new account and/or loses a lot of games on purpose to be rated '1400'. I've played enough chess to recognize what is 1000, 1200, 1400 1800, up to 2000 so I can tell pretty quickly that someone is sandbagging when they beat me 3x in a row in blitz yet they are rated -200 compared to me.

Same with computer cheating. You can easily cheat with a computer just by choosing the 'next-best' CPU move, not the 'top' move (which will be flagged for cheating.) Literally 1 in 5 players I run into online <1200 cheat, usually in the endgame, and I can tell pretty quickly because all of a sudden they start playing monospeed (fixed time per move) and their endgame accuracy is astonishingly high. I usually can still beat them at <1200 because I can move a lot faster than them and they lose on time, but it's crazy how many beginner-rated players cheat in the endgame (they probably cheated in the midgame as well just to survive into an endgame against me if I'm playing for real.)

So don't take too much stock in your one-day rating, even if you take a major beating on some days. Just try to learn from your beatings, and you'll find your rating will climb over time even with the cheaters/sandbaggers.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by LadyGeek »

Thanks for the heads up. I'm currently taking a beating in puzzles. I didn't know where to start, so I went with "Normal". Not being concerned about the rating allowed me to drop the level down to "Easier" and I started to solve puzzles. I actually started to gain points, which is a plus (pun intended).

Replaying the puzzle to see how it got to that point also helps.

Several puzzles are linked to the actual game with a full analysis. If I truly get stuck, I'll look at the game and then do a sneak peak one move ahead. Why? I don't understand why a certain move was "best". Seeing what was actually done in the game will help me learn and match theory to practice.
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RubyTuesday
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by RubyTuesday »

LadyGeek wrote: Fri Jan 15, 2021 5:58 pm I haven't played chess in more years than I care to remember. Watching The Queen's Gambit on Netflix has rekindled an interest to play chess. Recently retired, this is a good time to jump back in. Everything I need is online.

I had first joined Chess.com, the world's largest online chess website. I was annoyed at the insistent marketing to upgrade to a monthly subscription. You were locked out of nearly every helpful lesson and video unless you paid up. That's not my style.

I then found lichess.org. Everything is free and open source, no ads. I'm in. I just played my first online games - casual, 1 draw, 1 loss. (For privacy concerns, I'm not posting any usernames.)

In addition to online play, I downloaded Scid vs. PC, a free and open source chess database. The user interface is somewhat challenging, but it has a solid reputation in the chess community. If you're serious about chess, this is the program to get.

I followed a YouTube video and setup my PC with the Caissabase game database and Stockfish 12 chess engine. You can analyze and annotate any game in the database, including those you play yourself. I'm playing against the computer. This program can also help you predict moves when you're playing (database tree view), not to mention showing where you made a blunder (mistake). I'm still on the learning curve, but I see what it can do. Impressive.

My main activity right now is watching chess lessons on YouTube and lichess.org. I'm playing against the computer (online and on my PC) and intend to play live games at lichess.org when I'm feeling confident.

There's an active chess community on Twitch - a live stream gaming site. You can find lessons there as well, or just watch the play.
Thanks for the resources. I just started playing again after years away from the game. The St. Louis Chess Club has a ton of good classes on YouTube. I guess over the last few years St Louis has become a bit of a chess capital of the US.
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WarAdmiral
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by WarAdmiral »

My Stats from Chess.com

Blitz:
Played: 6300
Won: 2900, Lost: 3200

So I'm about 50-50
euphonious
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by euphonious »

Coburn wrote: Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:21 am Hmmm...chess. Last time I played was back in late-80s when I was in college. Last tournament was in Marshall Chess Club (in NYC)...are they still around? :)
I visited the Marshall Chess Club with a friend while I was in college many, many years ago. My friend was a FIDE master; I was just a casual hobbyist. We played a lot of 3 min speed games and bughouse. The last time I played semi-seriously was in high school tournaments.

A couple years ago I happened to stumble across a chess stream on Twitch. That was cool. I sometimes watch Youtube videos of Magnus Carlsen when they pop up in my recommendations. Besides that, I haven't looked at the game much since I graduated. It's nice to see people talking about it here, though.
Bungo
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Bungo »

SrGrumpy wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:46 am
mak1277 wrote: Mon Jan 18, 2021 10:30 am I play on chess.com as well. A 3-minute blitz game is the best way I can think of to spend 6 idle minutes in the middle of the day.
I play against the computer on chess.com, the same guy every time, "Emir," in the intermediate section. It's usually pretty tight, then he does something suicidal. I should probably try a character a little more challenging. No deep tactics or strategy for me (well, not consciously).
I recently started playing, partly motivated by this thread. I've played the chess.com bots one by one in until I hit one I had trouble beating, namely Maria, also in the intermediate section with a nominal rating of 1200. I've lost to "her" five or six times. If you're able to beat Maria, give Nelson a try (nominal 1300). "He" has a tough reputation in the newbie forum; I haven't tried "him" yet.

I should probably play more humans. Many people suggest not playing bots (at least not exclusively) because they don't play like humans and you don't really learn the right skills as a consequence.

Another thing I need is a lot more practice checkmating. Even when I have a material advantage I sometimes have trouble with this depending on which pieces I have left. Especially when it's something like two bishops and a king, or a rook, knight, and king.

I'm mostly focusing on tactics puzzles now. I've got my puzzle rating up to 1300 but they're getting harder now and I'm not sure if I can push it much further, yet.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

remomnyc wrote: One of my gripes about the series (which I overall enjoyed, BTW) was its exaggeration of BH's accomplishments. The chess rating system if applied honestly is pretty accurate and repeatable -- there is no way that BH plays for a while in the basement with the janitor and then beats a player rated 2100 or whatever in her 1st tournament.

I believe that the series is loosely based on Bobby Fischer's exploits. He was outstanding, probably the greatest of all time, but he was not beating 2000ish players until years into his career.
I think Fischer's first published rating after just one tournament was mid-1800's. The rating formula used in those years took about 16 rated games to converge on playing strength, so it is not totally out of the question that Fischer could have competed with a 2100 player in his first tournament. But Fischer likely had done alot more study than BH in the movie at that time. In that sense, I agree with your point.
Klangfool wrote: 1) d2-d4 or e2-e4 are the most popular openings for white.

2) In response to e2-e4, I used to play Sicilian Defense (c2-c4)
In response to 1. e2-e4 the Sicilian Defense is 1. ... c7-c5.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by KlangFool »

Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:25 am
remomnyc wrote: One of my gripes about the series (which I overall enjoyed, BTW) was its exaggeration of BH's accomplishments. The chess rating system if applied honestly is pretty accurate and repeatable -- there is no way that BH plays for a while in the basement with the janitor and then beats a player rated 2100 or whatever in her 1st tournament.

I believe that the series is loosely based on Bobby Fischer's exploits. He was outstanding, probably the greatest of all time, but he was not beating 2000ish players until years into his career.
I think Fischer's first published rating after just one tournament was mid-1800's. The rating formula used in those years took about 16 rated games to converge on playing strength, so it is not totally out of the question that Fischer could have competed with a 2100 player in his first tournament. But Fischer likely had done alot more study than BH in the movie at that time. In that sense, I agree with your point.
Klangfool wrote: 1) d2-d4 or e2-e4 are the most popular openings for white.

2) In response to e2-e4, I used to play Sicilian Defense (c2-c4)
In response to 1. e2-e4 the Sicilian Defense is 1. ... c7-c5.
Thanks for the correction.

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tm3
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by tm3 »

Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:25 am
remomnyc wrote: One of my gripes about the series (which I overall enjoyed, BTW) was its exaggeration of BH's accomplishments. The chess rating system if applied honestly is pretty accurate and repeatable -- there is no way that BH plays for a while in the basement with the janitor and then beats a player rated 2100 or whatever in her 1st tournament.

I believe that the series is loosely based on Bobby Fischer's exploits. He was outstanding, probably the greatest of all time, but he was not beating 2000ish players until years into his career.
I think Fischer's first published rating after just one tournament was mid-1800's. The rating formula used in those years took about 16 rated games to converge on playing strength, so it is not totally out of the question that Fischer could have competed with a 2100 player in his first tournament. But Fischer likely had done alot more study than BH in the movie at that time. In that sense, I agree with your point.
Klangfool wrote: 1) d2-d4 or e2-e4 are the most popular openings for white.

2) In response to e2-e4, I used to play Sicilian Defense (c2-c4)
In response to 1. e2-e4 the Sicilian Defense is 1. ... c7-c5.
Bobby Fischer started playing when he was 6 and became obsessed with the game. He had been playing for 4 years (including getting trounced by better players) when he entered his first tournament, at age 10, and won 5th place. Doing well after 4 years of playing and obsessing, including playing against a variety of much stronger players, is much different than the fantasy of playing only the janitor for 6 months and then beating a 2100 player (which is impossible).

http://www.chessmaniac.com/bobby-fischer-early-years/
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by tm3 »

lightheir wrote: Tue Mar 02, 2021 8:59 am
In summary, the priority list to get better as a early beginner.
1. PLAY as much as you can! You don't even need to deeply analyze your games at this point, just play as much as possible, take lots of beatings, run the lichess CPU analysis on them to see what you missed tactically!
2. Tactics tactics tactics. It is even ok to do more tactics than playing as a beginner, but you still do have to play some.
3. Watch videos AFTER you've done a lot of #1 and #2.
4. Watch your rating go up!

This should get you to 1600-1700 on lichess fairly quickly. After that, it's still almost the same as above, but you will have to add in more self-analysis of games, and some dedicated endgame study, but that's for later.

Chess books are actually pretty terrible for beginners in chess.
I largely agree with play play play, tactics tactics tactics, and avoid most books ...... with one notable exception being Chess Tactics for Students by Bain (which is, surprise, a book about tactics!).
lightheir
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

tm3 wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 8:41 am
Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:25 am
remomnyc wrote: One of my gripes about the series (which I overall enjoyed, BTW) was its exaggeration of BH's accomplishments. The chess rating system if applied honestly is pretty accurate and repeatable -- there is no way that BH plays for a while in the basement with the janitor and then beats a player rated 2100 or whatever in her 1st tournament.

I believe that the series is loosely based on Bobby Fischer's exploits. He was outstanding, probably the greatest of all time, but he was not beating 2000ish players until years into his career.
I think Fischer's first published rating after just one tournament was mid-1800's. The rating formula used in those years took about 16 rated games to converge on playing strength, so it is not totally out of the question that Fischer could have competed with a 2100 player in his first tournament. But Fischer likely had done alot more study than BH in the movie at that time. In that sense, I agree with your point.
Klangfool wrote: 1) d2-d4 or e2-e4 are the most popular openings for white.

2) In response to e2-e4, I used to play Sicilian Defense (c2-c4)
In response to 1. e2-e4 the Sicilian Defense is 1. ... c7-c5.
Bobby Fischer started playing when he was 6 and became obsessed with the game. He had been playing for 4 years (including getting trounced by better players) when he entered his first tournament, at age 10, and won 5th place. Doing well after 4 years of playing and obsessing, including playing against a variety of much stronger players, is much different than the fantasy of playing only the janitor for 6 months and then beating a 2100 player (which is impossible).

http://www.chessmaniac.com/bobby-fischer-early-years/
I don't disagree that the movie stretches reality, but to put it perspective, it's actually not completely impossible.

Thu youngest US chess master in the world is 9 years old.
https://www.columbian.com/news/2018/aug ... ss-master/

And sure, he has resources like coaching and tournaments, etc, but if the basement janitor was as strong as his books and knowledge imply (learning/memorizing tomes indicates likely expert-class or higher strength), a truly gifted young individual could become super strong, super fast.

Youngest grandmasters are in the 12 year old range. Assuming the main character in the fictional movie had so much natural talent that she could ultimately become world champion, the ability to beat a bunch of high school players likely ranked up to near-master in her first competition is entirely within reality. (The 9-year old master I mentioned would have crushed that whole room as well, statistically.)
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Young players with talent are able to progress faster today because of the availability of chess computers, online game databases, and online play. In Fischer's era, the closest parallel was the Russian Chess School-- intensive training offered to youngsters identified as having grandmaster potential.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

I thought the cameo appearance of Bruce Pandolfini (US master, chess teacher, and consultant for the Queen's Gambit series) as one of the tournament directors in the Queen's Gambit series was a nice touch.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

Bungo wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 3:25 am If you're able to beat Maria, give Nelson a try (nominal 1300). "He" has a tough reputation in the newbie forum; I haven't tried "him" yet.
Yeah, Martin Nelson just killed me, though I battled bravely. Maria is locked to chess.com lurkers.

Edit: Nelson killed me, not Martin. And now a few more times.
Last edited by SrGrumpy on Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Marseille07
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
Marseille07
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Take that Nelson!
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:48 pm Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
I meant to say Nelson. I was dazed when I wrote it.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:42 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:48 pm Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
I meant to say Nelson. I was dazed when I wrote it.
Gotcha. Yeah Nelson was pretty good. I'm stuck with Antonio now.
SrGrumpy
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:50 pm
SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:42 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:48 pm Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
I meant to say Nelson. I was dazed when I wrote it.
Gotcha. Yeah Nelson was pretty good. I'm stuck with Antonio now.
I played Antonio a few times because I loved Paraguay. But the games went on forever (my coffee breaks and naps didn't help) and ended in draws with not enough pieces. I'll give him another go when I've patched up my wounds.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:58 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:50 pm
SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:42 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:48 pm Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
I meant to say Nelson. I was dazed when I wrote it.
Gotcha. Yeah Nelson was pretty good. I'm stuck with Antonio now.
I played Antonio a few times because I loved Paraguay. But the games went on forever (my coffee breaks and naps didn't help) and ended in draws with not enough pieces. I'll give him another go when I've patched up my wounds.
I just snatched my first draw with Antonio after losses. He forced one by repetitive moves, don't know why.
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Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:59 pm
SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:58 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:50 pm
SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 3:42 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:48 pm Hmm? Martin wasn't very strong.
I meant to say Nelson. I was dazed when I wrote it.
Gotcha. Yeah Nelson was pretty good. I'm stuck with Antonio now.
I played Antonio a few times because I loved Paraguay. But the games went on forever (my coffee breaks and naps didn't help) and ended in draws with not enough pieces. I'll give him another go when I've patched up my wounds.
I just snatched my first draw with Antonio after losses. He forced one by repetitive moves, don't know why.
Kudos! He did the repetitive-moves draw with me, too, now that I remember. Ugh. Dirty little xxx.
jayk238
Posts: 911
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2017 12:02 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by jayk238 »

Anyone hear of the chess-steps method?


I ordered my copy and plan to learn with it. Surprised more people havent mentioned it. I saw serawins mentioned but steps method is the go to in european learning.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

SrGrumpy wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 4:05 pm Kudos! He did the repetitive-moves draw with me, too, now that I remember. Ugh. Dirty little xxx.
Thanks. Just got'em, playing Isabel now.
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 pm Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game. And you will have learned almost nothing about how to survive. This sort of technique is advanced 1800+ level territory.

As a new chess player who likely plays predominantly online, try to focus on tactics/middlegame.

You'll know when to study endgames when you start reaching them consistently and get beat in a equalish endgame position - which rarely happens for players <1600 in a meaningful way.

For someone like Capablanca, endgames were almost intuitive and studying them led him to brilliant middlegame play. For mere mortal beginners, you won't see any sort of connection and just get annihilated repeatedly before reaching the endgame.

At around 1800+, you actually DO have to study endgames properly to win and steer the game to winning endgames where one pawn makes a clear win in most situations. But you'll know to study it by then, and even then - the amount of pure theoretical knowledge required is actually small. It's amazing how many expert-class players don't even know their endgame basics but still maintain expert class ratings - because they can so effectively win the game before even reaching endgames.

At 2000 though, you'll see players actively steer toward winning endgames, even favoring openings that do that. It's not even that hard once you are experienced - one of my favorite techniques against aggressive 2000+ players online is to 'bore them to death' even though it's not remotely boring or slow (it's usually a fast blitz game!) I choose the most non-fireworks, nontactical, easiest to equalize openings - like London System, Petroff Defense, or a heavily blocked pawn structure where after 20 moves, it's almost always guaranteed to be a dead-equal position for 2000-rated players. I can crank out these moves near-instantly, without thinking, as I know there's not much risk and quite a few equalizing moves. At some point, the aggressive opponent will often overplay his hand (sometimes due to time pressure, but often because they're annoyed at the equality), and try to 'bait' me into making a mistake, but instead weakening his position. And of course, I won't 'fall for it', and just be content with a superior long-term pawn stucture (no material advantage) - after which I trade off all the pieces (often requires good tactical skill to force trades.) Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge. March that king into the right spot, escort the pawn to the queen, and checkmate through premoves requiring 0.1sec/move!

Sure, this stuff is far above beginner level, but it's actually not super sophisticated. Capablanca would literally consider this 'below beginner ability' for his talent level and not even worthy of comment or instruction. Again, that's why it's not good advice to only listen to grandmasters - unless you literally have the talent of a master/grandmaster to start with. The youtube chess personalities routinely win games with this very method, and it is very instructional, even as a beginner, to see how straightforward it is. But you will NEVER see this demonstrated in any classic chess book - because those non-blitz slow grandmaster games were so much higher level. Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 pm Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game. And you will have learned almost nothing about how to survive. This sort of technique is advanced 1800+ level territory. Endgame study is VERY different from middlegame/tactics - it's almost an entirely different beast; for beginners, it IS an entirely different beast. You can book up so much on your endgame that your are near-master level in endgames, but then lose 2,3 pieces right out of the gate and you will never get to use your endgame skills.

As a new chess player who likely plays predominantly online, try to focus on tactics/middlegame.

You'll know when to study endgames when you start reaching them consistently and get beat in a equalish endgame position - which rarely happens for players <1600 in a meaningful way.

For someone like Capablanca, endgames were almost intuitive and studying them led him to brilliant middlegame play. For mere mortal beginners, you won't see any sort of connection and just get annihilated repeatedly before reaching the endgame.

At around 1800+, you actually DO have to study endgames properly to win and steer the game to winning endgames where one pawn makes a clear win in most situations. But you'll know to study it by then, and even then - the amount of pure theoretical knowledge required is actually small. It's amazing how many expert-class players don't even know their endgame basics but still maintain expert class ratings - because they can so effectively win the game before even reaching endgames.

At 2000 though, you'll see players actively steer toward winning endgames, even favoring openings that do that. It's not even that hard once you are experienced - one of my favorite techniques against aggressive 2000+ players online is to 'bore them to death' even though it's not remotely boring or slow (it's usually a fast blitz game!) I choose the most non-fireworks, nontactical, easiest to equalize openings - like London System, Petroff Defense, or a heavily blocked pawn structure where after 20 moves, it's almost always guaranteed to be a dead-equal position for 2000-rated players. I can crank out these moves near-instantly, without thinking, as I know there's not much risk and quite a few equalizing moves. At some point, the aggressive opponent will often overplay his hand (sometimes due to time pressure, but often because they're annoyed at the equality), and try to 'bait' me into making a mistake, but instead weakening his position. And of course, I won't 'fall for it', and just be content with a superior long-term pawn stucture (no material advantage) - after which I trade off all the pieces (often requires good tactical skill to force trades.) Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge. March that king into the right spot, escort the pawn to the queen, and checkmate through premoves requiring 0.1sec/move!

This sort of play is utterly maddening to gifted tactical players, because there are next to no 'winning' tactics involved, and even when people lose, they often have no idea how they've lost. I often think no more than 2-3 moves ahead with this style (yup, like beginner-level think-ahead) but I see the long-term pawn structure that will secure the win so long as I don't make a big mistake. No flashy 8-move checkmates here, just plodding, small steps toward escorting a pawn to queening.

Sure, this stuff is far above beginner level, but it's actually not super sophisticated. Capablanca would literally consider this 'below beginner ability' for his talent level and not even worthy of comment or instruction. Again, that's why it's not good advice to only listen to grandmasters - unless you literally have the talent of a master/grandmaster to start with. The youtube chess personalities routinely win games with this very method, and it is very instructional, even as a beginner, to see how straightforward it is. But you will NEVER see this demonstrated in any classic chess book - because those non-blitz slow grandmaster games were so much higher level. Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

AI players at chess.com don't seem to ever accept Queen's gambit :(
Triplef
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:28 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Triplef »

Hi, I would not focus on learning opening moves. On ichess I purchased Susan Polgar's Scholastic chess training videos for my sons. However I also found them useful for myself. I also bought the Polgar method but It is too advanced for my current level.
Bungo
Posts: 1138
Joined: Wed Sep 28, 2011 11:28 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Bungo »

I had been struggling mightily with the two-bishop checkmate (problem #4 in chess.com's checkmate drills). Until this evening, I was only able to succeed once after numerous attempts which usually ended up in stalemate. For some reason I find the bishops' porous diagonal lines much harder to wrap my brain around than the nice horizontal and vertical brick walls afforded by rooks and queens!

Determined to solve this once and for all, I checked out several videos on YouTube. Most were fairly vague and not very helpful. But then I found this one, which provides a wonderfully clear and foolproof method. After watching this, I was able to solve it five times in a row with no difficulty. Linking here in case anyone else finds this problem tricky and frustrating to solve on one's own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzHYiiDjto
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Got Antonio for the first time. God help us.
Carl53
Posts: 2693
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Carl53 »

Pre-covid I'd sometimes play with youth at local institution but lately I occasionally play the 'Really Bad Chess' app.
jbk
Posts: 309
Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:56 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by jbk »

More than 30 years at the board here. 2060 FIDE, 1900 USCF. Beat Fabiano Caruana (current world #2) and drew with Hikaru Nakamura back when both were whippersnappers. It's the best game in the world. Play it for pleasure and enjoy the wonderful (albeit occasional) times when everything clicks. There's a lot of beauty in chess and I can enjoy being on the wrong end of interesting contests (but not as much as being on the right end). That's really all I came on to say. (And to brag about Fabi and Hikaru of course.)
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

jbk wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 5:45 pm More than 30 years at the board here. 2060 FIDE, 1900 USCF. Beat Fabiano Caruana (current world #2) and drew with Hikaru Nakamura back when both were whippersnappers. It's the best game in the world. Play it for pleasure and enjoy the wonderful (albeit occasional) times when everything clicks. There's a lot of beauty in chess and I can enjoy being on the wrong end of interesting contests (but not as much as being on the right end). That's really all I came on to say. (And to brag about Fabi and Hikaru of course.)
I used to follow chess a lot more than I do now. Amazing feat beating / drawing vs those GMs.
SrGrumpy
Posts: 1477
Joined: Wed Aug 05, 2015 3:21 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by SrGrumpy »

Marseille07 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:44 pm Got Antonio for the first time. God help us.
He just got me in 31 moves, but I feel he's quite vulnerable.
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

SrGrumpy wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:08 pm
Marseille07 wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:44 pm Got Antonio for the first time. God help us.
He just got me in 31 moves, but I feel he's quite vulnerable.
Yeah he's got some exploitable holes. I just beat Isabel. Wally is next but he's pretty good.
gips
Posts: 1760
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

Bungo wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:04 am I had been struggling mightily with the two-bishop checkmate (problem #4 in chess.com's checkmate drills). Until this evening, I was only able to succeed once after numerous attempts which usually ended up in stalemate. For some reason I find the bishops' porous diagonal lines much harder to wrap my brain around than the nice horizontal and vertical brick walls afforded by rooks and queens!

Determined to solve this once and for all, I checked out several videos on YouTube. Most were fairly vague and not very helpful. But then I found this one, which provides a wonderfully clear and foolproof method. After watching this, I was able to solve it five times in a row with no difficulty. Linking here in case anyone else finds this problem tricky and frustrating to solve on one's own:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOzHYiiDjto
now try Knight and bishop
Marseille07
Posts: 16054
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2020 12:41 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Marseille07 »

Got Wally, I think I'm just about hitting my limit though.
gips
Posts: 1760
Joined: Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by gips »

lightheir wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:32 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 pm Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game. And you will have learned almost nothing about how to survive. This sort of technique is advanced 1800+ level territory. Endgame study is VERY different from middlegame/tactics - it's almost an entirely different beast; for beginners, it IS an entirely different beast. You can book up so much on your endgame that your are near-master level in endgames, but then lose 2,3 pieces right out of the gate and you will never get to use your endgame skills.

As a new chess player who likely plays predominantly online, try to focus on tactics/middlegame.

You'll know when to study endgames when you start reaching them consistently and get beat in a equalish endgame position - which rarely happens for players <1600 in a meaningful way.

For someone like Capablanca, endgames were almost intuitive and studying them led him to brilliant middlegame play. For mere mortal beginners, you won't see any sort of connection and just get annihilated repeatedly before reaching the endgame.

At around 1800+, you actually DO have to study endgames properly to win and steer the game to winning endgames where one pawn makes a clear win in most situations. But you'll know to study it by then, and even then - the amount of pure theoretical knowledge required is actually small. It's amazing how many expert-class players don't even know their endgame basics but still maintain expert class ratings - because they can so effectively win the game before even reaching endgames.

At 2000 though, you'll see players actively steer toward winning endgames, even favoring openings that do that. It's not even that hard once you are experienced - one of my favorite techniques against aggressive 2000+ players online is to 'bore them to death' even though it's not remotely boring or slow (it's usually a fast blitz game!) I choose the most non-fireworks, nontactical, easiest to equalize openings - like London System, Petroff Defense, or a heavily blocked pawn structure where after 20 moves, it's almost always guaranteed to be a dead-equal position for 2000-rated players. I can crank out these moves near-instantly, without thinking, as I know there's not much risk and quite a few equalizing moves. At some point, the aggressive opponent will often overplay his hand (sometimes due to time pressure, but often because they're annoyed at the equality), and try to 'bait' me into making a mistake, but instead weakening his position. And of course, I won't 'fall for it', and just be content with a superior long-term pawn stucture (no material advantage) - after which I trade off all the pieces (often requires good tactical skill to force trades.) Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge. March that king into the right spot, escort the pawn to the queen, and checkmate through premoves requiring 0.1sec/move!

This sort of play is utterly maddening to gifted tactical players, because there are next to no 'winning' tactics involved, and even when people lose, they often have no idea how they've lost. I often think no more than 2-3 moves ahead with this style (yup, like beginner-level think-ahead) but I see the long-term pawn structure that will secure the win so long as I don't make a big mistake. No flashy 8-move checkmates here, just plodding, small steps toward escorting a pawn to queening.

Sure, this stuff is far above beginner level, but it's actually not super sophisticated. Capablanca would literally consider this 'below beginner ability' for his talent level and not even worthy of comment or instruction. Again, that's why it's not good advice to only listen to grandmasters - unless you literally have the talent of a master/grandmaster to start with. The youtube chess personalities routinely win games with this very method, and it is very instructional, even as a beginner, to see how straightforward it is. But you will NEVER see this demonstrated in any classic chess book - because those non-blitz slow grandmaster games were so much higher level. Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)
It doesn't seem to me you know what you're talking about:
>>"In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game."

why was it different in capablanca's time? do you think back then beginners were studying the end game and not losing a piece or two in the opening and middle game? The point of studying endgames is not to learn how to mate with two bishops, it's learning concepts which are used in the opening and the middle game with less pieces on the board so analysis is not as complicated: It's learning how the pieces work together, how to calculate, how zugzwang works, opposition, space, etc.

>>Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge.

very few games are won with even material and superior pawn structure. More likely someone is down a pawn or some othe imbalances exists. sure, you can win with doubled pawns or an outside passed pawn, but that's not how most games at the 2k+ level are won.

>>Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)

there are "real" chess books for every level. How would you suggest a beginner understand beginner concepts like the center, imbalances, attack when castled on different sides of the board, opposition, rook and pawn endings, etc.
User avatar
Random Musings
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Location: Pennsylvania

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Random Musings »

Went to lichess and am enjoying the puzzles. Have not played in many, many years and it shows, working on the middle difficulty level. Sometimes the answers click, while other times I'm clueless. Hovering around 2300, but have been stuck in that area for a while. Not sure if I'll play, the comments about computer use and sandbagging sounds frustrating.

RM
I figure the odds be fifty-fifty I just might have something to say. FZ
lightheir
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Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Let's play chess

Post by lightheir »

gips wrote: Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:57 pm
lightheir wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:32 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 pm Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game. And you will have learned almost nothing about how to survive. This sort of technique is advanced 1800+ level territory. Endgame study is VERY different from middlegame/tactics - it's almost an entirely different beast; for beginners, it IS an entirely different beast. You can book up so much on your endgame that your are near-master level in endgames, but then lose 2,3 pieces right out of the gate and you will never get to use your endgame skills.

As a new chess player who likely plays predominantly online, try to focus on tactics/middlegame.

You'll know when to study endgames when you start reaching them consistently and get beat in a equalish endgame position - which rarely happens for players <1600 in a meaningful way.

For someone like Capablanca, endgames were almost intuitive and studying them led him to brilliant middlegame play. For mere mortal beginners, you won't see any sort of connection and just get annihilated repeatedly before reaching the endgame.

At around 1800+, you actually DO have to study endgames properly to win and steer the game to winning endgames where one pawn makes a clear win in most situations. But you'll know to study it by then, and even then - the amount of pure theoretical knowledge required is actually small. It's amazing how many expert-class players don't even know their endgame basics but still maintain expert class ratings - because they can so effectively win the game before even reaching endgames.

At 2000 though, you'll see players actively steer toward winning endgames, even favoring openings that do that. It's not even that hard once you are experienced - one of my favorite techniques against aggressive 2000+ players online is to 'bore them to death' even though it's not remotely boring or slow (it's usually a fast blitz game!) I choose the most non-fireworks, nontactical, easiest to equalize openings - like London System, Petroff Defense, or a heavily blocked pawn structure where after 20 moves, it's almost always guaranteed to be a dead-equal position for 2000-rated players. I can crank out these moves near-instantly, without thinking, as I know there's not much risk and quite a few equalizing moves. At some point, the aggressive opponent will often overplay his hand (sometimes due to time pressure, but often because they're annoyed at the equality), and try to 'bait' me into making a mistake, but instead weakening his position. And of course, I won't 'fall for it', and just be content with a superior long-term pawn stucture (no material advantage) - after which I trade off all the pieces (often requires good tactical skill to force trades.) Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge. March that king into the right spot, escort the pawn to the queen, and checkmate through premoves requiring 0.1sec/move!

This sort of play is utterly maddening to gifted tactical players, because there are next to no 'winning' tactics involved, and even when people lose, they often have no idea how they've lost. I often think no more than 2-3 moves ahead with this style (yup, like beginner-level think-ahead) but I see the long-term pawn structure that will secure the win so long as I don't make a big mistake. No flashy 8-move checkmates here, just plodding, small steps toward escorting a pawn to queening.

Sure, this stuff is far above beginner level, but it's actually not super sophisticated. Capablanca would literally consider this 'below beginner ability' for his talent level and not even worthy of comment or instruction. Again, that's why it's not good advice to only listen to grandmasters - unless you literally have the talent of a master/grandmaster to start with. The youtube chess personalities routinely win games with this very method, and it is very instructional, even as a beginner, to see how straightforward it is. But you will NEVER see this demonstrated in any classic chess book - because those non-blitz slow grandmaster games were so much higher level. Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)
It doesn't seem to me you know what you're talking about:
>>"In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game."

why was it different in capablanca's time? do you think back then beginners were studying the end game and not losing a piece or two in the opening and middle game? The point of studying endgames is not to learn how to mate with two bishops, it's learning concepts which are used in the opening and the middle game with less pieces on the board so analysis is not as complicated: It's learning how the pieces work together, how to calculate, how zugzwang works, opposition, space, etc.

>>Then with just kings on the board, and equal pawns, for a decently-skilled player, it's not even hard in blitz mode with <20 seconds to make 20 moves (premoves allowed!) to win through your superior pawn structure and very basic king position knowledge.

very few games are won with even material and superior pawn structure. More likely someone is down a pawn or some othe imbalances exists. sure, you can win with doubled pawns or an outside passed pawn, but that's not how most games at the 2k+ level are won.

>>Which is why I highly recommend putting all that stuff off until you've really gotten your fill of the youtube chess personality knowledge and really do need higher-level analysis. (I'd say 2000+ typically to really be ready for 'real' chess books.)

there are "real" chess books for every level. How would you suggest a beginner understand beginner concepts like the center, imbalances, attack when castled on different sides of the board, opposition, rook and pawn endings, etc.
I stand by all my aforementioned points, and it's fine to disagree.

Remember also well I'm making my comments in the context of this bogleheads thread, which is certainly composed of mostly beginner-level or just early-intermediate chess players. What i say here would not necessarily apply to, say if you were the coach of a gifted upcoming very talented youngster who naturally picks up many things very quickly.

I absolutely stand by that for the folks here, focusing now (as a beginner) on endgame play will NOT be anywhere near as productive as doing tactics or playing. To the point they can outright ignore endgames, until they're around 1500+ on lichess. Sure, they'll lose some clearly won games a pawn up, but they'll be getting there far more effectively.

Put it this way - Ladygeek, who is starting out her chess interest/hobby, can devote 20 hours to learning pawn vs k endgames with opposition, zugzwang, etc. - these aren't even be considered intermediate-level, but she'll just barely be able to really get the hang of these positions with 20 hours of study at her beginner level and lack of chess playing board time. She'll get utterly slaughtered immediately in any game she plays at her level, and NEVER be able to use that information. Literally never.

She takes those same 20 (or 50) hours and studies nothing but tactics - wham - all of a sudden she's delivering as well as foreseeing real tactical shots throughout every single game she plays. Simple ones, yes, but she will be actively using what she has learned - ALL the time.

Capablaca's stuff is legit, of course!, but it's just too advanced for non-tournament casual internet chess players who are starting out. I wish it were true that you could study pure endgames and become a tactical expert in all situations, but it's just not true for mortals - that's why tactics books are in abundance.

To also be explicit, Jeremy Silman has written an excellent endgame book where he clearly marks per chapter the 'recommended rating' at which you would be a good candidate for learning the stuff in the chapters he present (meaning you can survive middlegames to these sort of endgames.) Most of the endgame knowledge, even the seemingly basic stuff, is rated for near-expert or above level players. The number of examples for true beginner players is tiny - because beginners barely can survive into the endgame or calculate well enough to play them well when they get there.

And to finish - I mentioned before, but I LOVE Dvoretsky's endgame manual, which is often considered the best endgame manual out there. It's amazingly good. And contrary to reviews, I disagree it's only for masters - it's def usable at high-class level (high-C and up, but more in the A class range). So I'm not just dismissing endgames because I don't like them or don't like learning them - I adore them! It's just the reality that endgames really are meant for players who can consistently survive against strong opposition into a nearly equal endgame situation. For beginners, the number of instant-win missed tactics is so high that it makes no sense to not focus on correcting those first, and expecting pure endgame study (even if they are tactical endgames) to improve tactics as a beginner is low-yield compared to actually studying tactics itself.

In terms of learning 'middlegame strategy' (center/imbalances/etc) - studying pure endgames is TERRIBLE!! And I've found that books are actually astonishingly clunky (and thus terrible) for mortals as well - examples are usually too advanced, you don't have enough of them, have to set up the board or enter the position in the computer, etc. All of this is solved and in grand form, by watching those youtube personalities in chess I keep mentioning. They will cover EVERYTHING useful a beginner to near-expert will need, in fun, entertaining, and practical manner, and since it's blitz their examples are soooo much more clear than compared to hi-level tournament games. If you are good enough to need actual books (I am in some areas for sure, I actually buy the .pgns from everymanchess.com so I can deeply analyze them, but youtube is still good enough for most of my lack of expert-ability!) you will likely know it.

And LOTS of games are won with equal material and better pawn structure once you get up in ratings. Sure, the frequency decreases as you get down from master, but that's absolutely what I have to play toward when I'm in form since the opposition is generally strong enough not to give me a free pawn. Of course, with time pressure in blitz, mistakes are made, and if I can pressure them hard enough, I can often force them to give up pawns so I can overpower for the win, but make no mistake - that pressure is made 100% from the superior pawn structure and the constant threat of marching pawns, which makes them waste time calculating and increasing odds of error. If there was no superior pawn structure, no pressure, no mistakes, and I'm the one either drawing or losing on time.

Lastly, I'm fully aware that for all this wonderful chess knowledge and experience - it often comes to no good if you play against someone (often a child) with significantly better calculational (tactical) ability than you. I try to get these players using that 'bore them to death' strategy I mentioned above, but usually if they are that good at calculating, they can force tactical situations on me, so all my theoretical knowledge is for naught. That's why chess is crazy and a love/hate situation - sometimes all the studying in the world won't save you from a talented kid who can see 2 steps more than you can ahead!
Northern Flicker
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Joined: Fri Apr 10, 2015 12:29 am

Re: Let's play chess

Post by Northern Flicker »

lightheir wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:28 pm
Northern Flicker wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 4:26 pm Capablanca (world champion 1921-1927) said that the fastest way to learn chess is to start with endgames, then middlegame tactics and positional play, and openings last.

Studying (not memorizing by rote) openings is useful, but was traditionally over-emphasized in the US. A prominent Russian grandmaster once said that US amateur players play the opening like a grandmaster, the middle game like an expert, and the endgame like a beginner.
In today's blitz-online chess, studying endgames is NOT the best way to start. It's terrible, actually. You will be utterly annihilated before you even get to any sort of reasonable endgame, and get thoroughly fed up and disgusted with your results and quit. Not even joking here. Going into and endgame one piece down or even 2 pawns down is not an endgame - it's a LOST game. And you will have learned almost nothing about how to survive. This sort of technique is advanced 1800+ level territory.

As a new chess player who likely plays predominantly online, try to focus on tactics/middlegame.

You'll know when to study endgames when you start reaching them consistently and get beat in a equalish endgame position - which rarely happens for players <1600 in a meaningful way.
Blitz is not a new phenomenon.

In fact, blitz time controls are on average slower now because of clock increments vs sudden death blitz with analog clocks in the past. Capablanca's method is that by starting with the simplest endgames and working backwards, you learn how individual pieces operate, and when they are active and when they are not. This actually improves middlegame tactics more rapidly than just studying tactical problems. A book on standard types of combinations certainly is useful.

Endgame understanding is more than just playing balanced endgame positions. It affects middlegame decisions such as not trading queens when the pawn structure is likely to lead to an inferior endgame. Learning the basic mates and when K+P vs K is a win, and how to win it, is sufficient for a beginner. By about USCF 1500, an understanding of the basic R+P and K+P endgame positions is useful.

Another very useful thing for beginners is to identify all of the checks and captures both you and your opponent has available every time it is your move, and then try to understand the consequences of each.
Last edited by Northern Flicker on Tue Mar 09, 2021 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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