Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

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phxjcc
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by phxjcc »

slidecreek wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:28 pm One variable that never seems to be discussed in reliability studies is the demographics of the average owner.

Based on the car buying threads here, bogleheads love Toyota's. Are we more likely to be keeping current on all required maintenance and driving more conservatively than the average Jeep Wrangler buyer, for example?
This is often overlooked, I agree.

Additionally, the "use case" of the vehicle is always overlooked.

Camry more reliable than an F250 dually diesel?

Ok, hitch your 15,000 pound trailer to the Camry and drive it to Lake Powell from Los Angeles.
Tow the Deere through the mud and muck.

That is why the Porsche numbers are so impressive to me...many are driven hard and put away wet and do not break. Ditto Corvette numbers, the driveline lines are bulletproof.

Completely different use cases from Casper Milquetoast cube dweller commuter car.
smitcat
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by smitcat »

phxjcc wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 2:36 pm
slidecreek wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 4:28 pm One variable that never seems to be discussed in reliability studies is the demographics of the average owner.

Based on the car buying threads here, bogleheads love Toyota's. Are we more likely to be keeping current on all required maintenance and driving more conservatively than the average Jeep Wrangler buyer, for example?
This is often overlooked, I agree.

Additionally, the "use case" of the vehicle is always overlooked.

Camry more reliable than an F250 dually diesel?

Ok, hitch your 15,000 pound trailer to the Camry and drive it to Lake Powell from Los Angeles.
Tow the Deere through the mud and muck.

That is why the Porsche numbers are so impressive to me...many are driven hard and put away wet and do not break. Ditto Corvette numbers, the driveline lines are bulletproof.

Completely different use cases from Casper Milquetoast cube dweller commuter car.
Too funny but a very accurate observation.
illumination
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by illumination »

JD Power is worthless, 90 days of ownership is just not long enough. I really think you need like 6+ years of ownership to really get a good idea on reliability. Consumer Reports is better, but I've heard criticisms of their methodology. For one, how do you score "2021 reliability" on models from the past? I also question the self-reporting aspect of the way they do these surveys, but it's probably still a decent gauge. One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.

I'd love to see the manufacturer's raw data on things like warranty repairs, etc. You could really figure out quickly what models had problems and in what areas. But I'm sure that's not something they want out there.

My own experience though has been that that brands like Toyota have far fewer problems than ones from the traditional American Big 3.
hoops777
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by hoops777 »

2tall4economy wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:58 am I won't change this board's group think with a single post, but I've got to start somewhere :)

I keep reading all of these uninformed posts about how good Japanese quality is and not to buy American unless it's a Tesla. The people posting that are replaying the movie they watched 20 to 30 years ago.

Don't believe me?

JD Power is the authority on vehicle quality for decades and is considered the source for the industry. Their 2020 results can be seen below:

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... -study-iqs

Of note:
Average problems per 100 vehicles: 166

Toyota 177 (bottom half)
Honda 177 (bottom half)
Acura 185 (bottom quartile)
Tesla 250 (absolute worst of all brands)

In total, 4 of the 6 brands sold by the big 3 Japanese automakers are below average.

So who actual makes the best cars (non-niche brand?)

General Motors (Buick, GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac)
Hyundai (Hyundai, Kia, Genesis)
and FCA except Chrysler (Dodge, Ram, Jeep)
JD Power is not worth too much. Consumer Reports is.
I do not trust any ratings service that is not free and neutral.
Companies like Diamond certified charge businesses a good amount to rate them and tell the world how great they are.
K.I.S.S........so easy to say so difficult to do.
ncbill
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by ncbill »

Kagord wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:30 am Curious if anybody else here has concerns of GDI engines or CVTs. I steer clear, even of the brands I trust, like Toyota, just because I don't see those two things lasting for 500K miles or 25 years, am I wrong here? There's certainly no history on this.
I would steer clear of CVTs that the OEM does not make itself.

So I'd buy a Toyota but would lease a Subaru (Jatco CVTs that have had problems, at least the earlier model CVTs)
02nz
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by 02nz »

2tall4economy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am You're entitled to your opinion. Having worked inside an OEM I can tell you they are the gold standard and the thing that the companies pay the most attention to.
I don't believe this to be true across the industry. Manufacturers have a much better measure of reliability that directly affects their bottom line: dollars spent on warranty repairs.
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2tall4economy
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by 2tall4economy »

02nz wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:18 pm
2tall4economy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am You're entitled to your opinion. Having worked inside an OEM I can tell you they are the gold standard and the thing that the companies pay the most attention to.
I don't believe this to be true across the industry. Manufacturers have a much better measure of reliability that directly affects their bottom line: dollars spent on warranty repairs.
Surprisingly to many perhaps, that's not a terribly good metric. There are so many other factors that feed into warranty expense (luck on recalls, litigation, customer policy, product mix, etc) that the actual cost to make repairs covered by the company is lost in the noise. Comparing 10ks tells, at best, 50% of the story.
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
H-Town
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by H-Town »

[Reply to removed post removed by moderator oldcomputerguy]

Back to the car topic: It's more problematic to own an expensive car than a cheaper car. My car has a KBB value of $5k. So I don't really care about scratch, dinges, or pretty much anything. I can't imagine the owner of a new $30k car would feel if he or she gets to a pack and narrow parking lot.
genzboglehead
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by genzboglehead »

2tall4economy wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 2:58 am I won't change this board's group think with a single post, but I've got to start somewhere :)

I keep reading all of these uninformed posts about how good Japanese quality is and not to buy American unless it's a Tesla. The people posting that are replaying the movie they watched 20 to 30 years ago.

Don't believe me?

JD Power is the authority on vehicle quality for decades and is considered the source for the industry. Their 2020 results can be seen below:

https://www.jdpower.com/business/press- ... -study-iqs

Of note:
Average problems per 100 vehicles: 166

Toyota 177 (bottom half)
Honda 177 (bottom half)
Acura 185 (bottom quartile)
Tesla 250 (absolute worst of all brands)

In total, 4 of the 6 brands sold by the big 3 Japanese automakers are below average.

So who actual makes the best cars (non-niche brand?)

General Motors (Buick, GMC, Chevrolet, Cadillac)
Hyundai (Hyundai, Kia, Genesis)
and FCA except Chrysler (Dodge, Ram, Jeep)
Tesla is an American car brand, so it actually an exception to your rule if this is the only data you’re using.
michaeljc70
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by michaeljc70 »

2tall4economy wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:57 am
02nz wrote: Fri Jan 01, 2021 1:18 pm
2tall4economy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am You're entitled to your opinion. Having worked inside an OEM I can tell you they are the gold standard and the thing that the companies pay the most attention to.
I don't believe this to be true across the industry. Manufacturers have a much better measure of reliability that directly affects their bottom line: dollars spent on warranty repairs.
Surprisingly to many perhaps, that's not a terribly good metric. There are so many other factors that feed into warranty expense (luck on recalls, litigation, customer policy, product mix, etc) that the actual cost to make repairs covered by the company is lost in the noise. Comparing 10ks tells, at best, 50% of the story.
Surely the manufacturers know the difference between a warranty repair and a recall fix. As to the most of the other things, those play into the JD Power survey too.

Since a lot of the issues come from the infotainment system and advanced features, that is a factor. Is a car that has a push button stereo with no screen better quality than one with an advanced system because people complained about it more and it was harder to use?
ad2007
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by ad2007 »

2tall4economy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am You're entitled to your opinion. Having worked inside an OEM I can tell you they are the gold standard and the thing that the companies pay the most attention to.
Why would an OEM supplier pay attention to automaker rankings? Would OEM supplier refuse to sell to the poorly rated automakers?
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KneePartsPro
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by KneePartsPro »

climber2020 wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 8:08 am I want to know how it runs 15 years later and how much time & money was required to keep it in that condition.
+1 Mpg doesn't matter to me either. Dpm (dollars per mile) does.
I can tell you almost anything about artificial knees used in knee replacement, and almost nothing about investing.
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2tall4economy
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by 2tall4economy »

ad2007 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:15 pm
2tall4economy wrote: Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:04 am You're entitled to your opinion. Having worked inside an OEM I can tell you they are the gold standard and the thing that the companies pay the most attention to.
Why would an OEM supplier pay attention to automaker rankings? Would OEM supplier refuse to sell to the poorly rated automakers?
In industry terminology:
OEM = ford, GM, FCA/sellanis, toyata, etc
Tier 1 = "OEM supplier"
You can do anything you want in life. The rub is that there are consequences.
TN_Boy
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by TN_Boy »

H-Town wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 11:39 am [Reply to removed post removed by moderator oldcomputerguy]

Back to the car topic: It's more problematic to own an expensive car than a cheaper car. My car has a KBB value of $5k. So I don't really care about scratch, dinges, or pretty much anything. I can't imagine the owner of a new $30k car would feel if he or she gets to a pack and narrow parking lot.
I feel/felt the same with a new more expensive (not real expensive) car as I did with my used Dodge econo box when I was in school.

My everyday car .... will get scratches. I'd rather it didn't. But it will.

Any car I tend to park as far as possible from the door because I like to walk anyway.
charis23
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by charis23 »

I've used this website as a source for long-term car reliability: http://www.dashboard-light.com/. The data comes from 269,338 vehicles sold at auction. If you love data, this site is a treasure trove.

According to their data, Toyota is one of the most reliable manufacturers: http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Toyota.html. Score is 82. The best American brand looks like Chevy which scores 48.
tm3
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by tm3 »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:19 pm I've used this website as a source for long-term car reliability: http://www.dashboard-light.com/. The data comes from 269,338 vehicles sold at auction. If you love data, this site is a treasure trove.

According to their data, Toyota is one of the most reliable manufacturers: http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Toyota.html. Score is 82. The best American brand looks like Chevy which scores 48.
Wow! Last time I went through the Consumer Reports data I believe that Subaru and Audi scored pretty well, Jeep not so much. The inverse is true in the above table.
michaeljc70
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by michaeljc70 »

tm3 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:07 pm
charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:19 pm I've used this website as a source for long-term car reliability: http://www.dashboard-light.com/. The data comes from 269,338 vehicles sold at auction. If you love data, this site is a treasure trove.

According to their data, Toyota is one of the most reliable manufacturers: http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Toyota.html. Score is 82. The best American brand looks like Chevy which scores 48.
Wow! Last time I went through the Consumer Reports data I believe that Subaru and Audi scored pretty well, Jeep not so much. The inverse is true in the above table.
From the website:

The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in.

It seems to not include a lot of issues.
charis23
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by charis23 »

michaeljc70 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:11 pm
tm3 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:07 pm
charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:19 pm I've used this website as a source for long-term car reliability: http://www.dashboard-light.com/. The data comes from 269,338 vehicles sold at auction. If you love data, this site is a treasure trove.

According to their data, Toyota is one of the most reliable manufacturers: http://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Toyota.html. Score is 82. The best American brand looks like Chevy which scores 48.
Wow! Last time I went through the Consumer Reports data I believe that Subaru and Audi scored pretty well, Jeep not so much. The inverse is true in the above table.
From the website:

The Quality Index Rating(QIR) offers an overall score based on the frequency of powertrain issues, the mileage distribution of when those issues take place, and vehicle age at the time of trade-in.

It seems to not include a lot of issues.
That's a good point. If you look into the details for one car, e.g. a Camry: http://www.dashboard-light.com/vehicles ... Camry.html, you'll see they also show reliability for powertrain, engine and transmission. I'm assuming they do this because these are the 3 most important aspects of a car and expensive to fix vs. other cosmetic issues that may just be minor annoyances.
doniboni
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by doniboni »

In my country there is a saying: "A Ford doesn't get sick, it just dies."
I've had a Tesla for 4 years now - best decision ever made. Same experience as Jay Leno - I've never done anything to it, I just drive it.
Literally impossible with any ICE 🚙 Don't care about paid researches.
GG1273
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by GG1273 »

My brother is a Mazda fan and hasn't had any major issues - usually keeps cars 8-10 years.

We have been Toyota for a long time (new and used) - mainly Corolla and Camry. I tended to buy with 30-40K miles on them and drive to 135-145K then start over. We'd always get new cars for my wife though.

She wanted an AWD and didn't want the Rav4 (too big per her assessment) and we went with 2018 Honda HR-V. 2 major computer module failure issues during first 20,000 miles. Lots of creaking noises, difficult to open the trunk and I hate the CVT. Now at 28,000 and she's trading it in today for 2021 HR-V EX :annoyed
GG1273
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by GG1273 »

illumination wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm JD Power is worthless, 90 days of ownership is just not long enough. I really think you need like 6+ years of ownership to really get a good idea on reliability. Consumer Reports is better, but I've heard criticisms of their methodology. For one, how do you score "2021 reliability" on models from the past? I also question the self-reporting aspect of the way they do these surveys, but it's probably still a decent gauge. One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.

I had a 2001 Chevy Prizm - same car as the Corolla except the rear lights (Prizm used the ones that were on the Malibu). Since it was a used one, the Prizm was several thousand less than the Corolla on the used car lot. It was a great car for $6,000 with 36K miles. Drove it to 145K with no issues / regular maintenance.
tdmp
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by tdmp »

Disclaimer: I have owned just Honda and Toyota all my life: They have all been reliable: passed down the generations type reliable. However, I don't think I will buy a Honda again b/c I think Toyota is better (my opinion). I currently drive a Prius Prime: Not exciting, but reliable. I know those are anecdotes. so real data: although from 2016: lemon cars: toyota is 1 in 11.65 million; next best is honda at 1 in 2.782 million. This is good enough data for me.
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/201 ... -list.html
JackoC
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by JackoC »

GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:17 am
illumination wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm JD Power is worthless, 90 days of ownership is just not long enough. I really think you need like 6+ years of ownership to really get a good idea on reliability. Consumer Reports is better, but I've heard criticisms of their methodology. For one, how do you score "2021 reliability" on models from the past? I also question the self-reporting aspect of the way they do these surveys, but it's probably still a decent gauge. One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.
I had a 2001 Chevy Prizm - same car as the Corolla except the rear lights (Prizm used the ones that were on the Malibu). Since it was a used one, the Prizm was several thousand less than the Corolla on the used car lot. It was a great car for $6,000 with 36K miles. Drove it to 145K with no issues / regular maintenance.
I mentioned earlier Prizm, I got a 2002 for a kid at one point. It is an example where general reputation created a price differential which was clearly not justified: same car and at least most Corollas sold in the US that model year were assembled in the same factory (not sure if all were), but it was noticeably cheaper than similar Corolla's on offer. However that doesn't prove there's no basis for Toyota's superior general reputation to GM on reliability, as you might agree. And I'm in the camp that JD Power is not really worth considering, the business model depends on collecting revenue from the entities rated. It's an uncertain world generally and nobody can ever guarantee the repair/reliability experience of car #108,371 off the line that year, especially used. But I go with Consumer Reports. I don't see the downside, all the actually great cars I'm going to miss because CR 'unfairly' dings them on reliability? I doubt it, with possible exceptions (I might buy a C8 Corvette at some point, after they work out the so far significant bugs in first model year, previous generation Corvettes have ranged from 1/5 to 5/5 per CR on reliability, anyway the C8 is a unique value in performance for the $, and if I get one I'll have my eyes open about GM's spotty track record on reliability).

Anecdotally we did not have good experience with the Prizm, reverted back to us from our kid at a point after a few years, ran but needed work, was able to negotiate a halfway decent trade in value eventually on it along with what I think was a good new car price (after some real rock bottom trade in offers) and called it a day. But it was somebody else's car for several years before us.
Last edited by JackoC on Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
illumination
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by illumination »

tdmp wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:31 am Disclaimer: I have owned just Honda and Toyota all my life: They have all been reliable: passed down the generations type reliable. However, I don't think I will buy a Honda again b/c I think Toyota is better (my opinion). I currently drive a Prius Prime: Not exciting, but reliable. I know those are anecdotes. so real data: although from 2016: lemon cars: toyota is 1 in 11.65 million; next best is honda at 1 in 2.782 million. This is good enough data for me.
https://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/201 ... -list.html
A lot of this is just personal anecdotes, but I think at one time, Honda and Toyota were roughly equal in quality and were probably the most reliable makes one could buy. My take now is Honda has slipped quite a bit and Toyota has a commanding lead in reliability now.

Reading the info in that link, Honda has almost 5 times as many "lemons" as Toyota. That's actually a pretty staggering gulf.The automatic transmission problems Honda has over the years are a real black eye that I think tarnished their reputation.

I don't think any of them are as reliable as they once were,Toyota included.
H-Town
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by H-Town »

It’s funny. Every time I see a broke down car in my metro area, it’s always a Toyota.
KyleAAA
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by KyleAAA »

JD Power data doesn't measure what most people mean when they speak about quality. People really mean lkng-term reliability, which obviously isn't known for 2020 models yet. While certainly real data, the JD Power stats are simply irrelevant to this conversation.
GG1273
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by GG1273 »

H-Town wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm It’s funny. Every time I see a broke down car in my metro area, it’s always a Toyota.
You didn't say what model year :P
GG1273
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by GG1273 »

JackoC wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:25 pm
GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:17 am
illumination wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm JD Power is worthless, 90 days of ownership is just not long enough. I really think you need like 6+ years of ownership to really get a good idea on reliability. Consumer Reports is better, but I've heard criticisms of their methodology. For one, how do you score "2021 reliability" on models from the past? I also question the self-reporting aspect of the way they do these surveys, but it's probably still a decent gauge. One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.
I had a 2001 Chevy Prizm - same car as the Corolla except the rear lights (Prizm used the ones that were on the Malibu). Since it was a used one, the Prizm was several thousand less than the Corolla on the used car lot. It was a great car for $6,000 with 36K miles. Drove it to 145K with no issues / regular maintenance.
I mentioned earlier Prizm, I got a 2002 for a kid at one point. It is an example where general reputation created a price differential which was clearly not justified: same car and at least most Corollas sold in the US that model year were assembled in the same factory (not sure if all were), but it was noticeably cheaper than similar Corolla's on offer. However that doesn't prove there's no basis for Toyota's superior general reputation to GM on reliability, as you might agree. And I'm in the camp that JD Power is not really worth considering, the business model depends on collecting revenue from the entities rated. It's an uncertain world generally and nobody can ever guarantee the repair/reliability experience of car #108,371 off the line that year, especially used. But I go with Consumer Reports. I don't see the downside, all the actually great cars I'm going to miss because CR 'unfairly' dings them on reliability? I doubt it, with possible exceptions (I might buy a C8 Corvette at some point, after they work out the so far significant bugs in first model year, previous generation Corvettes have ranged from 1/5 to 5/5 per CR on reliability, anyway the C8 is a unique value in performance for the $, and if I get one I'll have my eyes open about GM's spotty track record on reliability).

Anecdotally we did not have good experience with the Prizm, reverted back to us from our kid at a point after a few years, ran but needed work, was able to negotiate a halfway decent trade in value eventually on it along with what I think was a good new car price (after some real rock bottom trade in offers) and called it a day. But it was somebody else's car for several years before us.
2002 was last model year for the Prizm - they did make them in the same factory as the Corolla. Many Corolla's are made in the Toronto area.
Carguy85
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by Carguy85 »

I had a 98 prizm and it was ok for $1400 with about 95k...interestingly enough these actually got worse between 98-02 according to car complaints. A buddy got an 01 or 02 and it was a total pile....he kept several quarts of oil in the trunk to keep it going.
Wannaretireearly
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by Wannaretireearly »

Kagord wrote: Mon Dec 28, 2020 10:30 am Curious if anybody else here has concerns of GDI engines or CVTs. I steer clear, even of the brands I trust, like Toyota, just because I don't see those two things lasting for 500K miles or 25 years, am I wrong here? There's certainly no history on this.
I have a GDI in my 2020 hyundai palisade. I'm a bit concerned. I've read conflicting opinions. Stealership just recommends Dino oil per manufacturer recommendations. I'm going with that for now. However, I've read synthetic may be better for GDI engines. Would love to get a boglehead opinion too :D
This time next year, we'll be millionaires!
geses
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by geses »

Honestly I'm not sure what the answer is because I haven't researched the difference in years, but I certainly wouldn't put much weight into JD Power IQ. Their methodology has always been skewed to make themselves a profit, even though I should be thanking them because I've been a paid survey participant before!

Back when I bought my 2010 Prius, Toyota was definitely significantly more reliable in studies, as was mine over the past 12 years. My biggest concern at the time was that the 2010 Prius that I picked up during the cash for clunkers program wasn't well rated on crash tests.

My latest new car purchase was a 2017 Model S. It was rated poorly in reliability and build quality in studies, and that has happened to line up with my experience. Just looking at it closely, the finish quality was not as good as my Toyota, and the Tesla has remained glitchy to this day. I bought the Tesla though for the free supercharging, safety, and tax credit, $500 NY state and $7500 federal.

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... y-feature/
Last edited by geses on Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fufgirl
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by fufgirl »

I bet there are more complaints for older Japanese vehicles too....because event they eventually break down of course. The thing is, they took longer to do so and more were on the road at whatever time the stats started being collected. I also think people buying Japanese cars may just be more likely to expect perfection and maybe are also long time buyers of those brands. Maybe they skipped 2 or 3 redesigns (or just new standard additions) before buying again so there are more quirks they haven't messed around with in a decade+. I also don't think its rational to consider a handful of serious issues over a long period of time the same as a handful of issues year in year out in terms of long term quality. I think there is a point to look out for when it comes to the "vehicle of the future" (electric etc). It will be interesting to see who comes out on top there in the end.
H-Town
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by H-Town »

GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:50 pm
H-Town wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:30 pm It’s funny. Every time I see a broke down car in my metro area, it’s always a Toyota.
You didn't say what model year :P
Lol yeah 1998 and earlier.
JackoC
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by JackoC »

GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:51 pm
JackoC wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:25 pm
GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:17 am
illumination wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.
I had a 2001 Chevy Prizm - same car as the Corolla except the rear lights
I mentioned earlier Prizm, I got a 2002 for a kid at one point. It is an example where general reputation created a price differential which was clearly not justified: same car and at least most Corollas sold in the US that model year were assembled in the same factory (not sure if all were)
2002 was last model year for the Prizm - they did make them in the same factory as the Corolla. Many Corolla's are made in the Toronto area.
Back then GM and Toyota were assembling Prizm's and Corolla's at the 'NUMMI' joint venture plant in Fremont CA, now the site of Tesla's plant. I hedged because not 100% sure Toyota didn't also import some Corollas directly from Japan. In some other model years that was true: some Corollas sold in North America were assembled in Japan though most in North America.
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by GG1273 »

JackoC wrote: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:49 am
GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:51 pm
JackoC wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:25 pm
GG1273 wrote: Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:17 am
illumination wrote: Thu Dec 31, 2020 3:10 pm One example I've heard is that a "twin" car that was made in the same factory, but is badged differently, like say Chevrolet and Toyota years back, the Toyota was "perceived" to be more reliable and it scored better on owner reliability surveys and the Chevrolet had worse scores despite it being the same exact vehicle.
I had a 2001 Chevy Prizm - same car as the Corolla except the rear lights
I mentioned earlier Prizm, I got a 2002 for a kid at one point. It is an example where general reputation created a price differential which was clearly not justified: same car and at least most Corollas sold in the US that model year were assembled in the same factory (not sure if all were)
2002 was last model year for the Prizm - they did make them in the same factory as the Corolla. Many Corolla's are made in the Toronto area.
Back then GM and Toyota were assembling Prizm's and Corolla's at the 'NUMMI' joint venture plant in Fremont CA, now the site of Tesla's plant. I hedged because not 100% sure Toyota didn't also import some Corollas directly from Japan. In some other model years that was true: some Corollas sold in North America were assembled in Japan though most in North America.
Thanks for checking the current state of the NUMMI plant and Tesla - have seen some indication that Tesla wants to move to TX somewhere down the road.
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by LadyGeek »

I removed a contentious post and reply. As a reminder, see: General Etiquette
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by random_walker_77 »

Just saw another article doing rankings based on how many cars are still on the road and owned by their original owner after 15 years. To put it mildly, Toyota is overrepresented on this list, and the prius was at the top. Anecdotally, when I bought a used prius, the independent shop said both that it was in great shape, and that they'd rarely seen issues with the prius.

https://www.motor1.com/news/467235/top- ... -15-years/

On the other hand, the methodology would penalize fleet cars, and luxury cars where the owner probably would upgrade well before 15 years.

[edit: found the original study here: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-people-ke ... udy#v=2021]
MMiroir
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by MMiroir »

random_walker_77 wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 12:48 pm Just saw another article doing rankings based on how many cars are still on the road and owned by their original owner after 15 years. To put it mildly, Toyota is overrepresented on this list, and the prius was at the top. Anecdotally, when I bought a used prius, the independent shop said both that it was in great shape, and that they'd rarely seen issues with the prius.

https://www.motor1.com/news/467235/top- ... -15-years/

On the other hand, the methodology would penalize fleet cars, and luxury cars where the owner probably would upgrade well before 15 years.

[edit: found the original study here: https://www.iseecars.com/cars-people-ke ... udy#v=2021]
It would also penalize manufacturers that lease much of their product rather than selling the vehicles outright. Frankly, most mainstream modern vehicles are pretty reliable, so just because one brand is marginally more reliable than another shouldn't make that much of a difference in the buying decision.
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by random_walker_77 »

MMiroir wrote: Wed Jan 20, 2021 11:16 pm Frankly, most mainstream modern vehicles are pretty reliable, so just because one brand is marginally more reliable than another shouldn't make that much of a difference in the buying decision.
People were saying this 20 years ago as well, and at least anecdotally, there was still a difference.

I'd love to see quantitative proof of this. If true, then all those buyers paying a premium for toyota/honda/lexus reliability are getting ripped off. If true, the used car market is wrong and is underpricing domestic automaker brands and overpricing Toyota's.
There's got to be a difference and I see you acknowledging that. I think the big question is how much of a "marginal" difference actually exists, and do people have different appraisals of what is meaningful vs inconsequential.

Some of this may also depend on reliability after a certain vintage. I'd be nearly as confident with any GM/Ford for the first 3 years/36K miles as for a toyota. From years 8-12, I suspect there's a meaningful difference. Some vehicles are just built to last longer (I think)
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Re: Vehicle quality (the real data, not anecdotes)

Post by phxjcc »

Start with a definition:

"Reliability means to me......"

E.g.
--term of ownership
--frequency of being stranded
--frequency of CEL
--frequency of frame a/o suspension issues
--freuncy of body integrity issues
--frequency of HVAC issues
--frequency of entertainment system issues
--ease of use
--cost to perform sustaining maintenance
--cost to fix "x" type of problems, x shown above.
--mean, median and 2 standard deviations of engine a/o transmission failure.
--mean, median and 2 standard deviations (of each) of miles to total powertrain failure/scrap.
--total cost per mile.
--total cost per PERSON mile.
--total cost of ownership.


AND

"Reliability" is NOT "Longevity"

Define your terms.
Find the data.

For me: my W123 MBZ 300D was the most reliable vehicle, as in ever.
Never broke down, ate brakes and tires, cruise control and HVAC controls pooped out twice...but for $10,000 for 170,000 miles over 6 years, simply unbeatable. Stop and go LA and NJ/NYC traffic. That is longevity, and TCO. My mechanic bought it and drove another 100k. Drove from LA to Yellowstone and back with 120K on it, through Death Valley and over the continental divide and it didn't blink.

Same with my 21 year old truck with 170K miles.

That paragon of "quality", the LX570?
Well....
The entertainment system turnsi off and on whenever you go over a big bump
The radiator, THE PLASTIC RADIATOR!, splits at the top tank seam--common problem--and had to be replaced.
The water pump crapped the bed.
The seat heater stopped working.
The last three were fixed with the extended warranty--you know, the one that the pundits here say not to buy.

Total bill to fix...Over $6,000.
The thing has 90,000 miles!
I have never put a radiator nor water pump in my 300D nor the Dodge, or the Crown Vic, or ...Grand Caravan, or Suburban.

So spare me the Toyota fan boi talk, ok?
No?
Ok, let's talk about TACO frame rust.
Enough?
No? How about first gen 5.7's being replaced because of rod/bearing failure.
Enough?
No? Steering rack failures on the mid 2000 RX.

You know what pays the entire operating costs for the entire dealership for Toyota and Lexus dealers?
The service department.
Sales are all profit, by design.

It's all about your definition of reliability.

The problem that I have with all of the ratings people is that they do not show you the raw data.

Consumer Reports hates FCA.
Seems to love Toyota and Honda, some MBZ and until recently Mini (as in, AYKM?!).
Their hatred of Ford because of the entertainment system caused me to cancel my subscription.
I buy trucks to drive and haul stuff and (formerly) tow race cars--they need to give give me the lowest TCO.
Can't play you iPod?
Too bad, get back to work.

Die going over Vail Pass? Yup, that's a problem.
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