New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

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palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
it appears the only way to fix this security exploit is to recall all machines with the T2. Apple talked about security in the M1 presentation but has not acknowledged this at all. We may have to wait for a class action lawsuit.
inbox788
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

Dyloot wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pm I honestly can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the point, but I believe the M1 chips have some sort of limitation they aren't discussing, which is why it is only in their low-end machines. If it was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it. Apple never lets an extra dollar get away from them.
Apple announced a two-year transition from Intel to ARM back in June. My assumption is that the Intel-based units will still be desired for running applications that still rely on the x86 architecture.
Separate the Apple marketing of their laptops from the M1 chip. They benchmarks are just thrown out there and are not an indication of the overall performance of the laptop. I expect the new laptops to be slower due to a lot of emulation and lack of optimization out of the box. What will be interesting will be comparing the native programs to the low end intel processors, and here, the new M1 might outperform the more expensive midline macbooks, especially after the native apps have been optimized.

The 8-core designation is confusing and misleading. It's a 4-big and 4-little configuration, so the main speed is coming from the 4-big processors. If you look at the A processors, they're 6-little, 2-big, so by doubling the number of big processors, the M1 is probably twice as fast as the A14 in heavy computational tasks. Of course, if the big processors are used heavily, they're using lots of power (relatively) and generating lots of heat, so may lead to thermal throttling. Moreso with passive cooling. We'll see if that's an issue.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... 185g7-1614
palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
TravelGeek
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by TravelGeek »

hunoraut wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 12:03 pm Someone can correct my rationale on this - the integration of memory into the SoC and PCIe storage means less dependency on ram capacity, because the paging/swapping that's done when RAM is full is now much faster.


Data doesn't need to travel from southbridge to northbridge and so on.

That's the theory. But we know nothing in computer ever demands less...only more.

I think 16gb is great for all my photo work so far
I think you are right that swapping is less costly than on older models, but there is probably still a significant performance difference between DRAM and flash for the SSD.

I find John Gruber’s analysis compelling.

https://daringfireball.net/2020/11/one_ ... he_m1_macs
I don’t know if the upcoming higher-end Apple Silicon MacBook Pros are going to include four USB/Thunderbolt ports — this is the company that sold a 12-inch semi-premium-priced MacBook with just one port for years — but I’m damn certain that they’ll support more than 16 GB of RAM and 2 TB of storage. My sincere, and I think technically reasonable, hope is that the 13-inch high-end MacBook Pros will reach spec-parity with the 16-inch models, supporting up to 64 GB of RAM and 8 TB of SSD storage, and perhaps offering equivalent graphics performance. But 32 GB of RAM and 4 TB of storage in future Apple Silicon-based 13-inch MacBook Pros should be considered a given.

What Apple announced yesterday was an Apple Silicon-based MacBook Pro, not the only Apple Silicon-based MacBook Pro. And I would bet that future high-end configurations will have four USB/Thunderbolt ports — two on each side — as well.
I’ll wait for the higher end configuration.
Last edited by TravelGeek on Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DesertMan
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by DesertMan »

palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm
bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Not much point to having an Apple laptop then, since you can't take it anywhere you might lose sight of it.

Also ignoring security issues is Very Very Double Plus Ungood Bad regardless of their severity or ease of exploitation.

It should not take a class action to get Apple to do the right thing. Or any company.
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telemark
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by telemark »

The M1 can't address more than 16GB of RAM. Not a problem for me, but might be for some. Also, the memory isn't upgradable.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... mory-limit

I have a mid-2010 mini that's still fine for what I use it for, but it can't run anything later than High Sierra and so won't be getting security updates for much longer. Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
DesertMan
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by DesertMan »

telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm The M1 can't address more than 16GB of RAM. Not a problem for me, but might be for some. Also, the memory isn't upgradable.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... mory-limit

I have a mid-2010 mini that's still fine for what I use it for, but it can't run anything later than High Sierra and so won't be getting security updates for much longer. Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
You can put Windows 10 on it, or Linux if you want to stay in Unix world. However this will NOT be an option with Apple Silicon Macs.
aarondearu
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by aarondearu »

DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:41 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm The M1 can't address more than 16GB of RAM. Not a problem for me, but might be for some. Also, the memory isn't upgradable.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... mory-limit

I have a mid-2010 mini that's still fine for what I use it for, but it can't run anything later than High Sierra and so won't be getting security updates for much longer. Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
You can put Windows 10 on it, or Linux if you want to stay in Unix world. However this will NOT be an option with Apple Silicon Macs.
Linux was already demoed running on Apple silicon at WWDC and Parallels will be out soon.
aarondearu
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by aarondearu »

telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
The new Mac minis have 4 USB ports -- 2x Thunderbolt/USB-C ports and 2x USB-A.
Jags4186
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Jags4186 »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Dyloot wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pm I honestly can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the point, but I believe the M1 chips have some sort of limitation they aren't discussing, which is why it is only in their low-end machines. If it was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it. Apple never lets an extra dollar get away from them.
Apple announced a two-year transition from Intel to ARM back in June. My assumption is that the Intel-based units will still be desired for running applications that still rely on the x86 architecture.
Separate the Apple marketing of their laptops from the M1 chip. They benchmarks are just thrown out there and are not an indication of the overall performance of the laptop. I expect the new laptops to be slower due to a lot of emulation and lack of optimization out of the box. What will be interesting will be comparing the native programs to the low end intel processors, and here, the new M1 might outperform the more expensive midline macbooks, especially after the native apps have been optimized.

The 8-core designation is confusing and misleading. It's a 4-big and 4-little configuration, so the main speed is coming from the 4-big processors. If you look at the A processors, they're 6-little, 2-big, so by doubling the number of big processors, the M1 is probably twice as fast as the A14 in heavy computational tasks. Of course, if the big processors are used heavily, they're using lots of power (relatively) and generating lots of heat, so may lead to thermal throttling. Moreso with passive cooling. We'll see if that's an issue.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... 185g7-1614
Apple did announce all of their first party apps have already been optimized for ARM so I expect those apps to perform better. Likewise, Microsoft announced Office had been optimized for ARM. If you are a photoshop user, I suspect it will take some time before Adobe upgrades it.
sycamore
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by sycamore »

Jags4186 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:03 pm ...
Apple did announce all of their first party apps have already been optimized for ARM so I expect those apps to perform better. Likewise, Microsoft announced Office had been optimized for ARM. If you are a photoshop user, I suspect it will take some time before Adobe upgrades it.
Regarding Microsoft Office on M1, see https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/off ... b4c9a36834

"As demonstrated at Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC) in June 2020, we've already started the process of moving Mac apps to universal binaries. In the future we will natively support both Apple Silicon and Intel chipsets within the same executable."

So, at least initially, Office support on M1 is through Rosetta2 translation.
aarondearu
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by aarondearu »

sycamore wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:13 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:03 pm ...
Apple did announce all of their first party apps have already been optimized for ARM so I expect those apps to perform better. Likewise, Microsoft announced Office had been optimized for ARM. If you are a photoshop user, I suspect it will take some time before Adobe upgrades it.
Regarding Microsoft Office on M1, see https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/off ... b4c9a36834

"As demonstrated at Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC) in June 2020, we've already started the process of moving Mac apps to universal binaries. In the future we will natively support both Apple Silicon and Intel chipsets within the same executable."

So, at least initially, Office support on M1 is through Rosetta2 translation.
Microsoft released an Office Beta with native Arm support.

Lightroom is coming next month and Photoshop is early 2021.
inbox788
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

sycamore wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:13 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:03 pm ...
Apple did announce all of their first party apps have already been optimized for ARM so I expect those apps to perform better. Likewise, Microsoft announced Office had been optimized for ARM. If you are a photoshop user, I suspect it will take some time before Adobe upgrades it.
Regarding Microsoft Office on M1, see https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/off ... b4c9a36834

"As demonstrated at Apple's Worldwide Developer Conference (WWDC) in June 2020, we've already started the process of moving Mac apps to universal binaries. In the future we will natively support both Apple Silicon and Intel chipsets within the same executable."

So, at least initially, Office support on M1 is through Rosetta2 translation.
They've started some optimization, but probably not finished yet. Ah, the Fat Binaries are back.

A14 processors Geekbench 5 scores about 1600 single core, so the 800's they getting are about 50% native speed, so there's potential to further optimize Rosetta2 as well.

Geekbench results for the Apple Silicon Developer Transition Kit surface online
The first ‘Mac with Apple silicon’ benchmarks are out, giving us some idea of how well non-native apps may perform with Rosetta translation.
https://www.macworld.com/article/356471 ... nline.html

There's no reason these M processors can't have 8 or 16 or more (big) cores with enough power and cooling. Portables will be more restricted, but there is already speculation about them.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/4/23/2123 ... r-12-cores
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catdude
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by catdude »

Anybody care to speculate on the prospects for significant Black Friday discounts on these new MacBooks and Mac mini? Whether from Apple, or other retailers -- Amazon, Best Buy, etc. etc?
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DesertMan
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by DesertMan »

aarondearu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:52 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:41 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm The M1 can't address more than 16GB of RAM. Not a problem for me, but might be for some. Also, the memory isn't upgradable.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... mory-limit

I have a mid-2010 mini that's still fine for what I use it for, but it can't run anything later than High Sierra and so won't be getting security updates for much longer. Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
You can put Windows 10 on it, or Linux if you want to stay in Unix world. However this will NOT be an option with Apple Silicon Macs.
Linux was already demoed running on Apple silicon at WWDC and Parallels will be out soon.
Was Linux running natively or on an emulator like Parallels? Running on an emulator still exposes you to macOS flaws. And a hardware flaw like the T2 bug is OS independent.
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bluquark
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by bluquark »

catdude wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 pm Anybody care to speculate on the prospects for significant Black Friday discounts on these new MacBooks and Mac mini? Whether from Apple, or other retailers -- Amazon, Best Buy, etc. etc?
I speculate the chance of that happening is zero.

Sometimes, there are discounts for second-rate Apple accessories like non-Pro Airpods. These brand new 5nm chips are in short supply and they seem to have attracted enough buyers at the current price.
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occambogle
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by occambogle »

The new M1 machines are really impressive. Benchmarks show the chip is faster than even the highest-end previous models:
https://www.iclarified.com/78497/new-m1 ... acbook-pro
The main downsides that I see, and that's going to depend on how you use it, are:
- 16GB RAM limit, non-upgradeable RAM
- From my limited understanding, virtualization software like VMware won't work so you can't also run Windows or other OSes.
- The Mac Mini looks very nice, but they dropped the 10gbe ethernet custom option.
palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

occambogle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:37 am The new M1 machines are really impressive. Benchmarks show the chip is faster than even the highest-end previous models:
https://www.iclarified.com/78497/new-m1 ... acbook-pro
The main downsides that I see, and that's going to depend on how you use it, are:
- 16GB RAM limit, non-upgradeable RAM
- From my limited understanding, virtualization software like VMware won't work so you can't also run Windows or other OSes.
- The Mac Mini looks very nice, but they dropped the 10gbe ethernet custom option.
No, it is not "faster" than the 16'' MBP. It is faster on some benchmarks. Given that the 16'' has a recent discrete GPU the MBA will not be faster on GPU intensive tasks. Also, still to be understood, is for how long the MBA can maintain that performance given that it is passively cooled. Those benchmarks do not run for long and thus the MBA probably does not hit the thermal limit.

I would suggest to those interested to wait until more complete workloads are measured.
onourway
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by onourway »

palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:21 am
occambogle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:37 am The new M1 machines are really impressive. Benchmarks show the chip is faster than even the highest-end previous models:
https://www.iclarified.com/78497/new-m1 ... acbook-pro
The main downsides that I see, and that's going to depend on how you use it, are:
- 16GB RAM limit, non-upgradeable RAM
- From my limited understanding, virtualization software like VMware won't work so you can't also run Windows or other OSes.
- The Mac Mini looks very nice, but they dropped the 10gbe ethernet custom option.
No, it is not "faster" than the 16'' MBP. It is faster on some benchmarks. Given that the 16'' has a recent discrete GPU the MBA will not be faster on GPU intensive tasks. Also, still to be understood, is for how long the MBA can maintain that performance given that it is passively cooled. Those benchmarks do not run for long and thus the MBA probably does not hit the thermal limit.

I would suggest to those interested to wait until more complete workloads are measured.
CPU wise, it is faster. Using the same benchmarks we’ve been comparing Intel/AMD CPU’s for decades. Don’t go moving the goal posts. All processors benefit from increased cooling - the trade off of how much cooling - from a small fan to a full water cooled system depends on the exact needs of the implementation. The fact that we are talking about this at all - in a $1000 laptop - with no fan - is a testament to the magnitude of this improvement compared to previous chips. Most workloads are bursty in nature - and having a device like the Macbook Air that has the fastest single-threaded CPU available - with no fan - with fantastic battery life - is a game changer for the industry. If you need sustained performance, you buy one of the Pro models.
Dyloot
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Dyloot »

inbox788 wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:14 pm
Dyloot wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:43 pm
crazygrow wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:06 pm I honestly can't tell if you are agreeing or disagreeing with the point, but I believe the M1 chips have some sort of limitation they aren't discussing, which is why it is only in their low-end machines. If it was truly revolutionary you would take it to the top-end first and charge a premium for it. Apple never lets an extra dollar get away from them.
Apple announced a two-year transition from Intel to ARM back in June. My assumption is that the Intel-based units will still be desired for running applications that still rely on the x86 architecture.
Separate the Apple marketing of their laptops from the M1 chip. They benchmarks are just thrown out there and are not an indication of the overall performance of the laptop. I expect the new laptops to be slower due to a lot of emulation and lack of optimization out of the box. What will be interesting will be comparing the native programs to the low end intel processors, and here, the new M1 might outperform the more expensive midline macbooks, especially after the native apps have been optimized.

The 8-core designation is confusing and misleading. It's a 4-big and 4-little configuration, so the main speed is coming from the 4-big processors. If you look at the A processors, they're 6-little, 2-big, so by doubling the number of big processors, the M1 is probably twice as fast as the A14 in heavy computational tasks. Of course, if the big processors are used heavily, they're using lots of power (relatively) and generating lots of heat, so may lead to thermal throttling. Moreso with passive cooling. We'll see if that's an issue.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_c ... 185g7-1614
I totally agree with you. Real-world benchmarking will be far more telling than marketing from Apple (or Intel, or AMD, or NVIDIA). I bought the NVIDIA marketing campaign hook, line, and sinker and was somewhat disappointed when some real benchmarks came out for the 3000 series GPUs. Still great products I would enjoy for years, but not quite as amazing as I allowed myself to believe during the company presentations.

With all that said, I'm very excited about Apple's transition to ARM CPUs. Most Apple users I know aren't power users, so the big/little core design of these CPUs will probably be excellent for their use case. Most consumers who aren't content creators or gamers really don't need the pure CPU power being sold right now, and those who do will want to really do their research prior to buying.
acegolfer
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by acegolfer »

Can it run full version MS Office natively? Or will it run in emulator?
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eye.surgeon
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by eye.surgeon »

I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Dottie57 »

If I hadn’t bought a new a new MacBook Pro last fall, I would buy the newly released option.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Dottie57 »

eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
Just note that Apple has been creating their own chips For iPhone and iPad for quite some time now. Lots of learning there.
Jags4186
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Jags4186 »

eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
Yea I mean, the graphs and everything are wonderful to look at. I’m not upgrading until I need to upgrade though. Considering I just spent $2000+ on a new 16” MacBook Pro a year ago, and that was an upgrade from a 2012 MacBook Pro, I probably won’t be upgrading for at least another 4 or 5 years.
inbox788
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:21 amNo, it is not "faster" than the 16'' MBP. It is faster on some benchmarks. Given that the 16'' has a recent discrete GPU the MBA will not be faster on GPU intensive tasks. Also, still to be understood, is for how long the MBA can maintain that performance given that it is passively cooled. Those benchmarks do not run for long and thus the MBA probably does not hit the thermal limit.

I would suggest to those interested to wait until more complete workloads are measured.
From the benchmark results, it looks like they pushed the clock to 3.2 GHz. Haven't payed much attention to the creep in clock speeds in the A processors, but that's got to be approaching some limits. There's already some attempts at increasing performance by decreasing CPU vs GPU speeds and cores to reduce throttling, and that may depend on the type of program you're running. The second benchmark result had a slightly lower single core, but higher multi core result with a slightly slower clock.

I'm eagerly awaiting more test results. Being tempted to get one of these, but no immediate need. Looking for an excuse.
eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
They'll be a few bugs, but they're making millions of these, and they're evolutionary design off the A processors. Developer kit used the A12Z. And they've been testing them in the labs for years. Most of the problems will be fixed in software updates. It's not quite like buying a year 1 Toyota or Honda, but in the computer world, probably close. I'm looking forward to the rumored M2 12-core next generation that should fill the midline next year.
palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

onourway wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 5:05 am
palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:21 am
occambogle wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:37 am The new M1 machines are really impressive. Benchmarks show the chip is faster than even the highest-end previous models:
https://www.iclarified.com/78497/new-m1 ... acbook-pro
The main downsides that I see, and that's going to depend on how you use it, are:
- 16GB RAM limit, non-upgradeable RAM
- From my limited understanding, virtualization software like VMware won't work so you can't also run Windows or other OSes.
- The Mac Mini looks very nice, but they dropped the 10gbe ethernet custom option.
No, it is not "faster" than the 16'' MBP. It is faster on some benchmarks. Given that the 16'' has a recent discrete GPU the MBA will not be faster on GPU intensive tasks. Also, still to be understood, is for how long the MBA can maintain that performance given that it is passively cooled. Those benchmarks do not run for long and thus the MBA probably does not hit the thermal limit.

I would suggest to those interested to wait until more complete workloads are measured.
CPU wise, it is faster. Using the same benchmarks we’ve been comparing Intel/AMD CPU’s for decades. Don’t go moving the goal posts. All processors benefit from increased cooling - the trade off of how much cooling - from a small fan to a full water cooled system depends on the exact needs of the implementation. The fact that we are talking about this at all - in a $1000 laptop - with no fan - is a testament to the magnitude of this improvement compared to previous chips. Most workloads are bursty in nature - and having a device like the Macbook Air that has the fastest single-threaded CPU available - with no fan - with fantastic battery life - is a game changer for the industry. If you need sustained performance, you buy one of the Pro models.
I'm not going to argue. Let's wait for real workloads that we have used to measure processor performance, like SPECint and the SPEC GPU benchmarks. Also if you have not look at the changes between GB4 and GB5. It's notable that Apple has chosen GB5. Exercise for the reader: Why?
Last edited by palanzo on Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
+1 Agreed.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:22 am
eye.surgeon wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 11:10 am I'm a longtime heavy apple user. Apple is hyping their own chip, obviously, but I'm somewhat surprised at the universal accolades for an unproven design. Intel has been making chips a long time. There will be hardware bugs with the new design. I personally am not planning to be the first one over the wall with the new chip. I'll give it a year or two to shake out. 20 hours of battery life is awesome but frankly not likely to be a game changer for most people.
Yea I mean, the graphs and everything are wonderful to look at. I’m not upgrading until I need to upgrade though. Considering I just spent $2000+ on a new 16” MacBook Pro a year ago, and that was an upgrade from a 2012 MacBook Pro, I probably won’t be upgrading for at least another 4 or 5 years.
The graphs are very pretty. Notice that Apple never puts numbers on the axes. Now what was it your high school maths teacher told you never to do?
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telemark
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by telemark »

DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:41 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm The M1 can't address more than 16GB of RAM. Not a problem for me, but might be for some. Also, the memory isn't upgradable.

https://www.theverge.com/2020/11/10/215 ... mory-limit

I have a mid-2010 mini that's still fine for what I use it for, but it can't run anything later than High Sierra and so won't be getting security updates for much longer. Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
You can put Windows 10 on it, or Linux if you want to stay in Unix world. However this will NOT be an option with Apple Silicon Macs.
Interesting thought, thanks. But I already have a Linux machine, and Apple says that Windows 10 won't run on this machine.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by telemark »

aarondearu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:00 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
The new Mac minis have 4 USB ports -- 2x Thunderbolt/USB-C ports and 2x USB-A.
Oh, I see. Couple of adapters and I'm good then.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

telemark wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:20 pm
aarondearu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:00 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
The new Mac minis have 4 USB ports -- 2x Thunderbolt/USB-C ports and 2x USB-A.
Oh, I see. Couple of adapters and I'm good then.
Yes, but. Remember USB-A is slow.
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telemark
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by telemark »

palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:31 pm
telemark wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:20 pm
aarondearu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:00 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
The new Mac minis have 4 USB ports -- 2x Thunderbolt/USB-C ports and 2x USB-A.
Oh, I see. Couple of adapters and I'm good then.
Yes, but. Remember USB-A is slow.
Keyboard and mouse :wink:
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Dottie57 »

bluquark wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 12:25 am
catdude wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 pm Anybody care to speculate on the prospects for significant Black Friday discounts on these new MacBooks and Mac mini? Whether from Apple, or other retailers -- Amazon, Best Buy, etc. etc?
I speculate the chance of that happening is zero.

Sometimes, there are discounts for second-rate Apple accessories like non-Pro Airpods. These brand new 5nm chips are in short supply and they seem to have attracted enough buyers at the current price.
+1. The last time I saw a blowout Thanksgiving sale at Apple was 2003. Stores were giving away good equipment each hour. Lots of fun!
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

telemark wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:41 pm
palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:31 pm
telemark wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:20 pm
aarondearu wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 7:00 pm
telemark wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:10 pm Might be time for a new mini, but they only have two USB ports and I currently have four in use.
The new Mac minis have 4 USB ports -- 2x Thunderbolt/USB-C ports and 2x USB-A.
Oh, I see. Couple of adapters and I'm good then.
Yes, but. Remember USB-A is slow.
Keyboard and mouse :wink:
I think it might keep up. :mrgreen:
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by Jags4186 »

catdude wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 10:18 pm Anybody care to speculate on the prospects for significant Black Friday discounts on these new MacBooks and Mac mini? Whether from Apple, or other retailers -- Amazon, Best Buy, etc. etc?
Go ahead and buy now from the education store. $100+ off on the Macbook Airs and Pros.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by MFD »

palanzo wrote: Fri Nov 13, 2020 6:31 pm
Yes, but. Remember USB-A is slow.
They are not that slow, listed as "Two USB-A ports (up to 5Gb/s)", or about half the speed of the "fast" ports "USB 3.1 Gen 2 (up to 10Gb/s)" Much faster than USB 2.0 or Firewire 800.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by fogalog »

Personally I would wait a couple of months. This is a brand new chip albeit in the same exact enclosure. (I have a 2020 MBP / 32GB / 2TB and the ergonomics / keyboard / screen are excellent, I have to say - much better than the prior MBP generation).

But Apple has had some doozys with regards new products over the years. They are rare, but they do happen. So personally I would let a bunch of other people test it out before jumping in. In the meantime, check Macrumors for hints for when a 32GB version might appear.

Good luck!
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by OAG »

Do not mean to hijack the thread but.....

I want a MacBook Pro but I need to trade in a 2020 MacBook Air (purchased in Mar 20) and Apple does not list that model as being one to trade in. Spoke to Apple (sure it was a contractor) and their response was "give it time and Apple will put it up on the site".

Not sure if my intentions are good ones since my current MBA is an Intel I7, 512, 16. From what I read and this thread indicates the M1 will be faster than the Intel I7. Guess I could sell it for more privately but being 80 yo the ease of a fully Apple transaction appeals to me.
OAG=Old Army Guy. Retired CW4 USA (US Army) in 1979 21 years of service @ 38.
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bluebolt
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by bluebolt »

OAG wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 pm Do not mean to hijack the thread but.....

I want a MacBook Pro but I need to trade in a 2020 MacBook Air (purchased in Mar 20) and Apple does not list that model as being one to trade in. Spoke to Apple (sure it was a contractor) and their response was "give it time and Apple will put it up on the site".

Not sure if my intentions are good ones since my current MBA is an Intel I7, 512, 16. From what I read and this thread indicates the M1 will be faster than the Intel I7. Guess I could sell it for more privately but being 80 yo the ease of a fully Apple transaction appeals to me.
What do you use it for? For many applications, the real-world difference between your 2020 i7 and the M1 may not be that noticeable.
For me and many of us on this thread upgrading from a 6 year-old or older model, there will be quite a difference.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by inbox788 »

bluebolt wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 6:48 pm
OAG wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 4:11 pm Do not mean to hijack the thread but.....

I want a MacBook Pro but I need to trade in a 2020 MacBook Air (purchased in Mar 20) and Apple does not list that model as being one to trade in. Spoke to Apple (sure it was a contractor) and their response was "give it time and Apple will put it up on the site".

Not sure if my intentions are good ones since my current MBA is an Intel I7, 512, 16. From what I read and this thread indicates the M1 will be faster than the Intel I7. Guess I could sell it for more privately but being 80 yo the ease of a fully Apple transaction appeals to me.
What do you use it for? For many applications, the real-world difference between your 2020 i7 and the M1 may not be that noticeable.
For me and many of us on this thread upgrading from a 6 year-old or older model, there will be quite a difference.
Doubt overall speeds will be faster. Maybe as they optimize it, on certain specific computational tasks, you might find improvements, but that's gradual over the next 2 years. IMO, you'd just be getting touch bar for a hefty upgrade cost. It might actually be slower if you depend on the emulation a lot.

What's slow for you now that you think you need the upgrade? Or are you just upgrading for the M1?

The i7 on the Air may not be reaching maximum potential because of thermal throttling, so you might see improvement with an i7/i9 in the Pro with the fan running and slightly better cooling.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by student »

palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm
bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by cutterinnj »

One thing to consider-

If everything is working fine except the battery, and it’s an old machine anyhow, you could try to replace the battery yourself.

Worse thing is you fry it, and you buy a new M1 machine anyhow.


You can buy a new battery with install kit for about $50 off of Amazon.

That’s what I did for my 2013 MacBook Air, and got some more life out of it
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:20 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm
bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
Sadly no.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by student »

palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:20 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm
bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
DesertMan wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:14 pm I would not buy a new Mac, or anything else Apple makes, until there is an official confirmation that the T2 security flaw has been fixed.

AFAIK, Apple has yet to even acknowledge the flaw, let alone confirm that it is fixed in the Apple Silicon Macs.

If Steve Jobs (God rest his soul) was still in charge, Apple would have already instituted a repair program and everyone responsible for the flaw would have been fired. The Apple of his time went out of the way to prove that they could be trusted with your digital life. I do not think that today's Apple is the same company.
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
Sadly no.
Is this article wrong? https://www.imore.com/apples-t2-chip-ha ... researcher It quoted the report "Once you have access on the T2, you have full root access and kernel execution privileges since the kernel is rewritten before execution. Good news is that if you are using FileVault2 as disk encryption, they do not have access to your data on disk immediately. They can however inject a keylogger in the T2 firmware since it manages keyboard access, storing your password for retrieval or transmitting it in the case of a malicious hardware attachment."

It did mention that "The exploit can be used to brute-force a FileVault2 volume password." But a brute-force attack is not efficient. My question is if someone steals a machine filevault2 turned on, how difficult is it to get to the data?
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by PhoebeCoco »

I upgraded my 2014 MacBook Air to Big Sur OS last night. No problems so far. I mostly use it for web surfing, now that I am retired, but I occasionally get the urge to do some vi'ing, so I pull up the Terminal and go to it.

I am planning on buying a new MacBook Air for myself for Christmas. The one flaw that I've noticed in my 2014 MacBook Air is the inability to show virtual backgrounds in Zoom meetings. I want to have a virtual background like all of the cool kids!

My work-issued laptop and desktop machines were always Windows. After wrestling with Windows all of my working life, I swore I would never use it again, if I could help it.
If you're not working on yourself, you're not working.
student
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by student »

PhoebeCoco wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:42 pm I upgraded my 2014 MacBook Air to Big Sur OS last night. No problems so far. I mostly use it for web surfing, now that I am retired, but I occasionally get the urge to do some vi'ing, so I pull up the Terminal and go to it.
Nice to find another person using vi. I think only old geezers like us use vi. Actually, these days, I use vim instead.
palanzo
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by palanzo »

student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:40 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:20 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm
bluebolt wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:00 pm
Sounds like an attacker needs physical access to your machine for this exploit.
True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
Sadly no.
Is this article wrong? https://www.imore.com/apples-t2-chip-ha ... researcher It quoted the report "Once you have access on the T2, you have full root access and kernel execution privileges since the kernel is rewritten before execution. Good news is that if you are using FileVault2 as disk encryption, they do not have access to your data on disk immediately. They can however inject a keylogger in the T2 firmware since it manages keyboard access, storing your password for retrieval or transmitting it in the case of a malicious hardware attachment."

It did mention that "The exploit can be used to brute-force a FileVault2 volume password." But a brute-force attack is not efficient. My question is if someone steals a machine filevault2 turned on, how difficult is it to get to the data?
The article is correct. Here is the original paper.

https://ironpeak.be/blog/crouching-t2-hidden-danger/

Brute-forcing most people's passwords would not be that difficult and you have all the time you need. Alternatively the bad actor inserts a malicious USB device that injects a key-logger to capture the password.

The big architectural mistake was to have the T2 responsible for keyboard, audio etc as well as the Secure Enclave. From a security perspective the T2 should only have been responsible for the Secure Enclave and it should have been running a very simple secure OS, not a variant of iOS.

There is more news to come according to the author.
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by sycamore »

student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:46 pm
PhoebeCoco wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:42 pm I upgraded my 2014 MacBook Air to Big Sur OS last night. No problems so far. I mostly use it for web surfing, now that I am retired, but I occasionally get the urge to do some vi'ing, so I pull up the Terminal and go to it.
Nice to find another person using vi. I think only old geezers like us use vi. Actually, these days, I use vim instead.
Vim is my preferred editor as well.

I remember learning vi on Unix for a class years ago. The instructor was not a fan, and liked to say “can’t spell vile without vi” :)
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Re: New MacBook Pro with M1 processor

Post by student »

palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:57 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:40 pm
palanzo wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:29 pm
student wrote: Sun Nov 15, 2020 8:20 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu Nov 12, 2020 4:15 pm

True. Attacker either takes your laptop and then has access to all your data or the attacker surreptitiously plugs a USB-C cable into your machine and later harvests your data.
Am I confused about the vulnerability? My understanding is it has to be a targeted attack. Someone gets hold of your machine, gets into your machine and leaves a malware. If someone steals your machine with the hard drive encrypted, it is still "safe."
Sadly no.
Is this article wrong? https://www.imore.com/apples-t2-chip-ha ... researcher It quoted the report "Once you have access on the T2, you have full root access and kernel execution privileges since the kernel is rewritten before execution. Good news is that if you are using FileVault2 as disk encryption, they do not have access to your data on disk immediately. They can however inject a keylogger in the T2 firmware since it manages keyboard access, storing your password for retrieval or transmitting it in the case of a malicious hardware attachment."

It did mention that "The exploit can be used to brute-force a FileVault2 volume password." But a brute-force attack is not efficient. My question is if someone steals a machine filevault2 turned on, how difficult is it to get to the data?
The article is correct. Here is the original paper.

https://ironpeak.be/blog/crouching-t2-hidden-danger/

Brute-forcing most people's passwords would not be that difficult and you have all the time you need. Alternatively the bad actor inserts a malicious USB device that injects a key-logger to capture the password.

The big architectural mistake was to have the T2 responsible for keyboard, audio etc as well as the Secure Enclave. From a security perspective the T2 should only have been responsible for the Secure Enclave and it should have been running a very simple secure OS, not a variant of iOS.

There is more news to come according to the author.
If it is just brute force, then I am not too worry about it as I use a very long password. I have no doubt that the government can get into it. I guess my question is can someone who has the knowledge of an average CS graduate from MIT crack it. If the answer is no, I am not too concern, as I am not worth the bad guy's time to target me.
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