Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

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lomarica01
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by lomarica01 »

if you love it go ahead and buy it just like you a fancy car but be ready for dealing with the customs paperwork, shipping costs and a possible "use" tax, which is about the same % as a sales tax. When you do the customs paperwork the state you live in will get a notification of the transaction and at least in CA they will make you pay the "use" tax.

also make sure you know who pays for shipping and obviously insure it. you should also get a certificate of authenticity from the art dealer
finally if shipped the art will be rolled up and placed in a tube then you will have to have it framed in the US

then finally enjoy your art for the rest of your life
Caduceus
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Caduceus »

unclescrooge wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:19 am
Caduceus wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:09 am

If it's just the decoration that you like, you can just send a picture of the painting to one of those websites that specialize in duplicating paintings and get a reproduction you can hang on your wall for maybe $300 or so.
Which sites are these?
Have you had personal experience?
Just google "fine art reproductions." These are mostly sites based in China and they will take a picture you provide (or if it's a famous painting, they already have it in their database) and duplicate the oil painting. I've never used them but my friends have and it's a little hit and miss depending on which painter did it. Some of the ones I've seen are quite nice. But my understanding is that you are free to return the painting for a refund for many of these sites if you don't like it.

They aren't going to be professional level forgeries obviously, but pretty enough as a wall hanging if you like the texture of oil as opposed to a print. China has entire workshops of artisans trained at duplication of this kind.
Caduceus
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Caduceus »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:41 pm
There are many comments that seem to imply, well, if you're not buying it as an investment and you really like this $10,000 painting, just buy it. Both of us agree that we would not be interesting in buying a painting that is a forgery or a knock-off or excessively inflated in price. Although we wouldn't have any intention of selling it or buying it as an investment for appreciation, we also would want the price we pay to reflect its value at least somewhat.
I've actually bought a "forgery" intentionally. The dealer represented it as an antique gilded bronze. I was pretty sure it wasn't. But it was an insanely beautiful statue and it brings me a lot of joy to look at it. So I purchased it knowing it was misrepresented and still it turned out to be a good purchase.

The thing about art is that even forgeries are art, right? A lot of antique porcelains were themselves meant as "forgeries" (in the sense that they were modeled on earlier pieces), so the mark of a good piece was how faithful it could be to the original. Even something that is "fake" (in the sense that it wasn't produced by the original artist) can still have a great deal of beauty and skill. It depends on the object. You wouldn't want to pay the same price as you would for something authentic, but it's not worthless either.

I am under the impression that there are a lot of fake antique porcelains and bronzes out there because of the demand. But I'm not sure if there are people who are churning out highly sophisticated fakes of old portraits. It seems like it would be a highly unusual and unprofitable use of the forger's time.
sport
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by sport »

We bought a pair of beautiful Chinese pictures hand-painted on silk. It turned out that they are very good copies of museum pieces in China. However, the price was reasonable considering the really nice frames they are in.
fposte
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by fposte »

Caduceus wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:04 pm But I'm not sure if there are people who are churning out highly sophisticated fakes of old portraits. It seems like it would be a highly unusual and unprofitable use of the forger's time.
They don't have to be highly sophisticated as long as the antique dealer isn't highly sophisticated. A Victorian-era student copy might well fly under the radar, even if an online factory copy doesn't. I'd definitely use tineye.com and yandex.com (not just Google images) to see if any images of the painting turned up in a way that clouds its provenance or attribution, and I'd check the history of the dealer to see their reputability.

That being said, I think it's likelier to be Dahl than a factory imitation, and the likeliest glitch here would be school of Dahl rather than Dahl. I also agree that the cost of authentication (as opposed to an appraisal for insurance purposes) isn't likely to be worth it. Purchases of old art are largely based on taste and personal estimates of probable authenticity, possibly informed by experts but usually for lower-priced stuff not; it's very much not a car situation, where you can get it checked out for validity prior to purchase. Part of this is because art is nuts, but it's also because you're buying art to sit on a wall, and you don't need a mechanic to make sure it fulfills that brief. It's more like figuring if you like the painting 10 out of 10 and it's 80% likely to be a Dahl (grabbing a figure out of the air), is it worth $10k to you?

Oh, and don't even start looking at Dali works if authenticity matters to you. Dali will make you crazy, and on purpose.
sport
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by sport »

celia wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 7:41 pm I would research the dealer's reputation and see what past customers think of him/her/them several years after their purchase. If they are honest and highly regarded, I would feel more confident in their evaluation of the painting.

(I am currently in a similar situation regarding something I want to buy and DH is asking good questions that I have to go find the answer for, in regards to customer satisfaction with similar items from the dealer. However, my item is something we would use frequently and the emphasis is on functionality.)
Dealer reputation can be a slippery concept. https://www.upi.com/Archives/1996/08/22 ... 840686400/
ReallyLikeToSave
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ReallyLikeToSave »

Quick things to consider

Sales Tax in the UK is called VAT - its 20%. In almost all cases it is part of the list price you see - stores, hotels, online etc. However Art auctions can be different. I know this is a gallery and not an auction house but worth checking that it includes VAT.

You should consider getting a quote for a specialist art shipper if you need this shipped after you buy.

Finally, check with your home insurance, usually they will let you add this as a specified item and it wont affect the premium but they may need it appraised separately (you could tell the auction house that you need this appraisal for insurance and solve the provenance problem at the same time)

Good luck, hopefully you will have many years of enjoyment.
fposte
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by fposte »

ReallyLikeToSave wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sales Tax in the UK is called VAT - its 20%. In almost all cases it is part of the list price you see - stores, hotels, online etc. However Art auctions can be different. I know this is a gallery and not an auction house but worth checking that it includes VAT.
If the item is being shipped directly to the US, VAT won't apply.
MarkerFM
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by MarkerFM »

ReallyLikeToSave wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm Quick things to consider

Finally, check with your home insurance, usually they will let you add this as a specified item and it wont affect the premium but they may need it appraised separately (you could tell the auction house that you need this appraisal for insurance and solve the provenance problem at the same time)
It most certainly will increase the premium if added as a scheduled item. They will accept a receipt as proof of value if you add a newly-acquired artwork to a PURE valuable items policy. I know because I have done this numerous times.
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celia
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by celia »

ReallyLikeToSave wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm Finally, check with your home insurance, usually they will let you add this as a specified item and it wont affect the premium but they may need it appraised separately (you could tell the auction house that you need this appraisal for insurance and solve the provenance problem at the same time)
We have an art item I paid several thousand for. Our homeowners insurance says I can't add it as a rider unless I get it appraised by an Accredited Appraiser in my state. The auction house that estimated the sales price said they didn't have any accredited appraisers. An appraisal from the UK might not be accepted for homeowners insurance.
fposte
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by fposte »

celia wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:38 pm We have an art item I paid several thousand for. Our homeowners insurance says I can't add it as a rider unless I get it appraised by an Accredited Appraiser in my state. The auction house that estimated the sales price said they didn't have any accredited appraisers. An appraisal from the UK might not be accepted for homeowners insurance.
Interesting--mine (State Farm) accepted an appraisal from the next state over with no problem. The art rider was also pretty affordable--like .15%--so I'm glad I did it. OP, this would be something worth checking with your insurance in advance.
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Pete12
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Pete12 »

fposte wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:25 pm
ReallyLikeToSave wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sales Tax in the UK is called VAT - its 20%. In almost all cases it is part of the list price you see - stores, hotels, online etc. However Art auctions can be different. I know this is a gallery and not an auction house but worth checking that it includes VAT.
If the item is being shipped directly to the US, VAT won't apply.
I imagine there would be U.S. import duties, plus use tax in the state of the OPs residence.
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abuss368
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by abuss368 »

I just watched an episode of American Greed regarding a massive fraud in New York regarding art. Really an eye opener. Art is a whole different set of risks, reward, liquidity concerns, fraud risks, and marketability.
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forgeblast
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by forgeblast »

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/713210-713210 the art of the con I think i read that one it was good.
https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/art-forgery a lot of good titles there. Its a really interesting subject and a few forgers have made a lot of money.....
fposte
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by fposte »

Pete12 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 8:03 am
fposte wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:25 pm
ReallyLikeToSave wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 3:18 pm
Sales Tax in the UK is called VAT - its 20%. In almost all cases it is part of the list price you see - stores, hotels, online etc. However Art auctions can be different. I know this is a gallery and not an auction house but worth checking that it includes VAT.
If the item is being shipped directly to the US, VAT won't apply.
I imagine there would be U.S. import duties, plus use tax in the state of the OPs residence.
Certainly a possibility; use tax varies depending on state. Original works of art brought in for personal use have generally been exempt from import duty, though there was a recent tariff imposed that affects works of art on paper (which a Dahl is almost certainly not). But fortunately no VAT on top of that.
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ualdriver
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ualdriver »

I'm the OP. Thanks all. Learned a lot on this thread. I'll report back if we go forward with the purchase. We have a professional examining the piece in the up and coming days......
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