Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

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ualdriver
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Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ualdriver »

Boglehead brain trust-

I'm asking this question on Bogleheads because there are experts of every type on this forum, so I assume there are many who know something about fine art.

Sorry long narrative (tirade?).......and let me preface this with- my wife and I know NOTHING about the purchasing of fine art. Further, she doesn't want this piece of art as an investment. She just thinks it is beautiful and we'd just be hanging it in our home for personal enjoyment.

My wife loves art and fell in love with a painting that she found on-line at a British Art and Antiques dealer in the U.K. We live in the U.S. It is an oil on canvas by Michael Dahl and signed as such. It is 37" x 32". It's a portrait of a lady. It is not known who the lady is.

She's been going back and forth with this art dealer, and apparently they have agreed to a price of $10,000 U.S. Dollars. Here's where things are going sideways.......

Husband (me) is getting involved now. To me, since we both know NOTHING about fine art, I'm thinking, "OK, let's find an independent appraiser in the UK, have him/her look at the painting, make sure it's a Dahl, make sure it's in good shape, and verify that it is worth in the ballpark of what this art dealer is asking." Seems pretty common sense to me. I wouldn't buy a $100 baseball card without an expert looking at it, never mind an expensive piece of art.

The art dealer is initially offended when we ask if he'll let an appraiser look at it. BIG red flag to me. He says that no appraiser will "certify" that it was painted by Dahl (is this true???). Wife talks to a couple of appraisers in the UK anyway (one who apparently knows Dahl artwork pretty well), and they say they'll only look at high resolution pictures of the art, perhaps do some analysis based on its provenance, but they won't go visit it nor do a full analysis.

The art dealer gets back to my wife later (after the initial offense) and says he'll send a high resolution photo to an appraiser/auction house who is "beyond reproach" and that he would pay the fee for the analysis. I forget the name of the company, but this seems like a conflict of interest when the seller is choosing the appraiser. It's like buying a used car and using the seller's mechanic to tell you that the car is running great.

Anyway, this art stuff is very confusing to me as one would think common sense would prevail: Seller offers art, buyer has professional analyze art. Buyer and seller agree on price after analysis is complete. I can't imagine anyone buying an expensive piece of art without doing a full blown analysis, considering how many fakes are made every day. I thought they would maybe take a paint chip and make sure the paint is old, maybe look at the colors, the brush strokes, I don't know.....whatever these art people do to examine a painting.

So anyway, if you're knowledgeable, I'd appreciate your thoughts. I won't necessarily respond to each comment, but I'm here reading. Thanks!
000
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by 000 »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm my wife and I know NOTHING about the purchasing of fine art.
If you hope to get any investment value out of it, stop right here.
ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm Further, she doesn't want this piece of art as an investment. She just thinks it is beautiful and we'd just be hanging it in our home for personal enjoyment.
Ok. Can you afford it as a purely consumption item? That is how I would look at it given your stated ignorance about art valuation.
livesoft
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by livesoft »

We have a painting that we love that has lots of sentimental value. While it cost less than what you were quoted, it did cost almost $1000 back in the early 1990s. We bought it from the artist. So you are buying a painting for sentimental value that your spouse loves. I see nothing wrong with that.

I would also guess there is no rush to do this as the painting is not going to go anyway. In the end, part of the sentimental value will be the story about how you bought and all the negotiations and back-and-forth with the dealer. So since these negotiations are part of the story, why not prolong them and make them interesting? I would tell the dealer to use your appraiser and you don't mind paying for it. Or use their appraiser and pay 50% of the appraised price, but not more than $5,000 (converted to pounds).
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RudyS
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by RudyS »

There are auction houses in UK (and everywhere) that might have a catalog listing of Michael Dahl work. You can get some ball park idea of prices. Anyhow, the used car dealer analogy is apt.
Last edited by RudyS on Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

000 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:26 pm
ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm my wife and I know NOTHING about the purchasing of fine art.
If you hope to get any investment value out of it, stop right here.
ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm Further, she doesn't want this piece of art as an investment. She just thinks it is beautiful and we'd just be hanging it in our home for personal enjoyment.
Ok. Can you afford it as a purely consumption item? That is how I would look at it given your stated ignorance about art valuation.
yes and get an appraisal if you're dropping serious coin.

maybe you can get one at a more desirable price point (if that's of concern):
https://www.invaluable.com/artist/dahl- ... on-prices/
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mak1277
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by mak1277 »

If you don't care about the investment value and your wife likes the painting (and doesn't mind the price)....why make it harder than it needs to be? Just buy it.
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Watty
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Watty »

Just FYI, I have seen a number of articles about how a lot of inexpensive oil painting are now coming out of China and that a lot of them are actually pretty good oil paintings that are commissioned by people or valid reproductions, and of course there are ones that are sold as counterfeits. You need to be extra careful. Spend some time googling about Chinese oil paintings.

You might even be able to find some modern Chinese oil painting reproduction or originals by Chinese artists that you would like even more for a very reasonable price and if you are using that for decoration then that could work out very well.

One other option would be to get a photographer to photograph your wife or kids in period costumes then have a Chinese oil painter make an oil painting of that.

I know nothing about this web site but a quick search found that it sells Michael Dahl reproductions that are made to order for a very reasonable price.

https://www.handmadepiece.com/masterpie ... -dahl.html

There were lots of web sites like that.

You also need to keep in mind that younger generations have little interest in most collectables and antiques. In addition to all the other problems when it is eventually sold from your estate there may be little market for paintings like that so it could be hard for your estate to sell at any price even if it is an original.

As others have said if you want it as a consumption and you can afford it then that is fine, just don't expect to be able to ever sell it for even a fraction of what you are paying for it.
senex
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by senex »

If it is a consumption item, its origin/value/authenticity is irrelevant unless your wife can tell the difference.

If it is an investment, appraisal should always be done by someone chosen/paid by you, never chosen/paid by the seller.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by adamthesmythe »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm He says that no appraiser will "certify" that it was painted by Dahl (is this true???).
An art expert can only say: it is consistent with the style of X, the materials are typical of X, the provenance is good. And there are disputes today about important works of art between different experts.

> I can't imagine anyone buying an expensive piece of art without doing a full blown analysis, considering how many fakes are made every day. I thought they would maybe take a paint chip and make sure the paint is old, maybe look at the colors, the brush strokes, I don't know.....whatever these art people do to examine a painting.

Hate to say it, but in the art world you are at the bottom of the range and the price of the object wouldn't warrant the expense of that sort of analysis.
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Pete12
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Pete12 »

I would not buy an expensive piece of art, sight unseen. Either suggest you take a trip to go and see the painting, or find another piece to buy at a local dealer.
7eight9
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by 7eight9 »

If you don’t know jewelry, know your jeweler.

Respectfully, you know neither.

adamthesmythe makes a good points regarding the art world. Even $400MM paintings can't be attributed to their purported artist with certainty.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by willthrill81 »

7eight9 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:28 pm If you don’t know jewelry, know your jeweler.
That reminds me of a quote from The Richest Man in Babylon, by George Clason.
“Every fool must learn,” he growled, ‘but why trust the knowledge of a brick maker about jewels? Would you go to the bread maker to inquire about the stars?"
senex wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:47 pm If it is a consumption item, its origin/value/authenticity is irrelevant unless your wife can tell the difference.
It's not irrelevant when it comes to the price you pay. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the cost of determining the value is probably not worth it in this price range.
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PoppyA
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by PoppyA »

Who is the dealer?
oldfort
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by oldfort »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm Boglehead brain trust-

I'm asking this question on Bogleheads because there are experts of every type on this forum, so I assume there are many who know something about fine art.

Sorry long narrative (tirade?).......and let me preface this with- my wife and I know NOTHING about the purchasing of fine art. Further, she doesn't want this piece of art as an investment. She just thinks it is beautiful and we'd just be hanging it in our home for personal enjoyment.
You might be looking at it wrong. You said she doesn't want it as an investment. Will the painting provide $10k of intrinsic enjoyment to your wife? Are you worried about the resale value or is this something you plan to hold forever? If it's impossible for you, your wife, or anyone else who might see the painting in your home to tell it's possibly a fake, why should it matter who the true painter was?
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Luckywon »

Of course I am not suggesting you do this but if you just told your wife you had it checked out by the best appraiser in the UK and determined its authenticity and value with certainty and you are giving it to her as a gift, that would assure your wife gets full enjoyment out of it and everyone would be happy. :twisted:

The point is by raising doubts you may be detracting from your wife's ultimate enjoyment of it. What it is worth to others is probably not important-do you ever anticipate reselling it?
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ccf »

my 2 cents, I have no expertise at all, my perspective is only as a frugal Boglehead who would definitely be willing to spend money on a piece of art that meant a lot to me.

I'd walk away unless I had a 3rd party appraiser that I could trust. Who wants to get ripped off? I'm not getting a great vibe from what you've said about the dealer.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Carefreeap »

oldfort wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:02 pm
ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 3:18 pm Boglehead brain trust-

I'm asking this question on Bogleheads because there are experts of every type on this forum, so I assume there are many who know something about fine art.

Sorry long narrative (tirade?).......and let me preface this with- my wife and I know NOTHING about the purchasing of fine art. Further, she doesn't want this piece of art as an investment. She just thinks it is beautiful and we'd just be hanging it in our home for personal enjoyment.
You might be looking at it wrong. You said she doesn't want it as an investment. Will the painting provide $10k of intrinsic enjoyment to your wife? Are you worried about the resale value or is this something you plan to hold forever? If it's impossible for you, your wife, or anyone else who might see the painting in your home to tell it's possibly a fake, why should it matter who the true painter was?
oooh let me do the reduction to the rediculous math!

$10,000/12 months/10 years or $83 a month not inflation adjusted. :beer You're welcome!
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by oldfort »

willthrill81 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:43 pm
7eight9 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:28 pm If you don’t know jewelry, know your jeweler.
That reminds me of a quote from The Richest Man in Babylon, by George Clason.
“Every fool must learn,” he growled, ‘but why trust the knowledge of a brick maker about jewels? Would you go to the bread maker to inquire about the stars?"
senex wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:47 pm If it is a consumption item, its origin/value/authenticity is irrelevant unless your wife can tell the difference.
It's not irrelevant when it comes to the price you pay. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the cost of determining the value is probably not worth it in this price range.
Which is kind of strange from one perspective. If the only way you can tell the difference between a reproduction and the original is by some expert with a Raman spectrometer, why pay more for the original?
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ualdriver
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ualdriver »

I'm the OP. Thanks for all the comments. We're sitting here reading.

There are many comments that seem to imply, well, if you're not buying it as an investment and you really like this $10,000 painting, just buy it. Both of us agree that we would not be interesting in buying a painting that is a forgery or a knock-off or excessively inflated in price. Although we wouldn't have any intention of selling it or buying it as an investment for appreciation, we also would want the price we pay to reflect its value at least somewhat.

I mean, when I bought my wife's engagement ring, I knew nothing about diamonds or jewelry. She found a ring she loved. Before I bought it, I got the specs on the ring and roughly determined the value of the diamonds, the value of the gold, etc., so at least I was confident that I wasn't paying $X,000.00's for a ring that was worth $XXX.00. Know what I mean? Obviously because she loved the ring I was going to pay a premium over and above the value of the stones and the gold, but I wasn't going to pay many multiples of a premium for this ring just because it was a really loved ring. Sorry if you're reading this my wife! You're worth every penny! : ) Same with this painting. She loves it, we'll likely pay a premium for this painting, put she doesn't want to pay $10K (plus shipping, insurance, etc.) for a painting that's worth $1,000 just because she likes it. That would make us both unhappy, but most importantly her unhappy.

We're still here reading comments. Thanks!
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by caffeperfavore »

Have they offered any sort of provenance for it? They should have some sort of documentation for an older piece like this. If it's a reputable dealer, then I may not be too concerned about it. $10k isn't crazy money for decent contemporary artists for works that size, let alone historical works, so I can understand how it wouldn't be worth the trouble to have an appraiser look at it. As others have said, it wouldn't be an investment. If they're just getting $10k for a 300 year old work that size, then it probably isn't appreciating too quickly.

However, there are so, so many amazing figurative artists in this country, probably within a stone's throw of where you live, that I wonder why she's become fixated on this particular one? They probably wouldn't be in 17th century dress, but there's probably a few out there riffing on it. They could really use the support right now too. I would be happy to provide a list of galleries that have top notch work or artists doing some interesting work with portraiture. There's so much amazing stuff out there that has more life and beauty in them than anything I saw online from Dahl (if this is the Michael Dahl I found online, Swedish painter from the 1600s - all his women look the same, although his self-portrait was nice, everything else looks like it was cranked out with a formula).

I wouldn't buy anything I couldn't see in person. Things always look different in person than online. Also, there may be issues with older works that you have to deal with like cracking or deteriorating canvas.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by oldfort »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:41 pm I'm the OP. Thanks for all the comments. We're sitting here reading.

There are many comments that seem to imply, well, if you're not buying it as an investment and you really like this $10,000 painting, just buy it. Both of us agree that we would not be interesting in buying a painting that is a forgery or a knock-off or excessively inflated in price. Although we wouldn't have any intention of selling it or buying it as an investment for appreciation, we also would want the price we pay to reflect its value at least somewhat.

I mean, when I bought my wife's engagement ring, I knew nothing about diamonds or jewelry. She found a ring she loved. Before I bought it, I got the specs on the ring and roughly determined the value of the diamonds, the value of the gold, etc., so at least I was confident that I wasn't paying $X,000.00's for a ring that was worth $XXX.00. Know what I mean? Obviously because she loved the ring I was going to pay a premium over and above the value of the stones and the gold, but I wasn't going to pay many multiples of a premium for this ring just because it was a really loved ring. Sorry if you're reading this my wife! You're worth every penny! : ) Same with this painting. She loves it, we'll likely pay a premium for this painting, put she doesn't want to pay $10K (plus shipping, insurance, etc.) for a painting that's worth $1,000 just because she likes it. That would make us both unhappy, but most importantly her unhappy.

We're still here reading comments. Thanks!
If you can find a painting which looks just as good on your wall for $1k, I don't know why you would pay $10k for a non-investment painting. Diamonds and gold are to some extent a commodity with somewhat standardized methods of valuation. Paintings are unique, even if they were done by some other 18th century painter instead of Dahl.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Rick Ferri »

When you buy art, you're supporting the artist. It's how they eat. But don't think for a second that it's an investment. It is not.

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adamthesmythe
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by adamthesmythe »

I used to hang out with art historians although I have not been a buyer of art.

You could try to find an art historian who knows the general period. They can offer more informed opinions.Try offering a good dinner and fine wine, art historians usually don't have much money.

I don't think you will ever get the sort of certainty you seem to want.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Mr.BB »

I think that the dealer being offended for wanting to bring an expert to look at it is a huge red flag. Whether you are looking at as an investment or just a piece of art that you truly like looking at that's a lot of money to spend for something that might only be worth $1,000. Years ago we bought a Peter Lik photograph and got a fabulous deal on it. We bought it because we truly enjoy looking at it. It has appreciated a great deal over the years so it turned out to be a very nice investment and we bought it from the studio so we know it is his work.
Last edited by Mr.BB on Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by celia »

I would research the dealer's reputation and see what past customers think of him/her/them several years after their purchase. If they are honest and highly regarded, I would feel more confident in their evaluation of the painting.

(I am currently in a similar situation regarding something I want to buy and DH is asking good questions that I have to go find the answer for, in regards to customer satisfaction with similar items from the dealer. However, my item is something we would use frequently and the emphasis is on functionality.)
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by willthrill81 »

oldfort wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:36 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:43 pm
7eight9 wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 5:28 pm If you don’t know jewelry, know your jeweler.
That reminds me of a quote from The Richest Man in Babylon, by George Clason.
“Every fool must learn,” he growled, ‘but why trust the knowledge of a brick maker about jewels? Would you go to the bread maker to inquire about the stars?"
senex wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 4:47 pm If it is a consumption item, its origin/value/authenticity is irrelevant unless your wife can tell the difference.
It's not irrelevant when it comes to the price you pay. Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the cost of determining the value is probably not worth it in this price range.
Which is kind of strange from one perspective. If the only way you can tell the difference between a reproduction and the original is by some expert with a Raman spectrometer, why pay more for the original?
That's a good point. However, if the OP's wife's tastes change and they go to sell it, the next potential buyer will likely care if the piece is original.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by newyorker »

Why don't you just print that high quality photo your dealer sent to you and put it on the wall. Everyone is happy then :)
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I typed into Google: "Prints by Michael Dahl". Most are around $60. Buy one of these. You get the picture you want without getting ripped off.
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ualdriver
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ualdriver »

He-he. Yeah. And I should have bought the engagement ring with the glass in it instead of diamonds, right? :D
newyorker
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by newyorker »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 pm He-he. Yeah. And I should have bought the engagement ring with the glass in it instead of diamonds, right? :D
I think 10k value is really iffy of a value. Its not pricey enough to have it properly appraised nor cheap enough to buy it blind. Thus, might as well get $60 print to save yourself some money and headaches.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by unclescrooge »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:41 pm I'm the OP. Thanks for all the comments. We're sitting here reading.

There are many comments that seem to imply, well, if you're not buying it as an investment and you really like this $10,000 painting, just buy it. Both of us agree that we would not be interesting in buying a painting that is a forgery or a knock-off or excessively inflated in price. Although we wouldn't have any intention of selling it or buying it as an investment for appreciation, we also would want the price we pay to reflect its value at least somewhat.

I mean, when I bought my wife's engagement ring, I knew nothing about diamonds or jewelry. She found a ring she loved. Before I bought it, I got the specs on the ring and roughly determined the value of the diamonds, the value of the gold, etc., so at least I was confident that I wasn't paying $X,000.00's for a ring that was worth $XXX.00. Know what I mean? Obviously because she loved the ring I was going to pay a premium over and above the value of the stones and the gold, but I wasn't going to pay many multiples of a premium for this ring just because it was a really loved ring. Sorry if you're reading this my wife! You're worth every penny! : ) Same with this painting. She loves it, we'll likely pay a premium for this painting, put she doesn't want to pay $10K (plus shipping, insurance, etc.) for a painting that's worth $1,000 just because she likes it. That would make us both unhappy, but most importantly her unhappy.

We're still here reading comments. Thanks!
See if art.com has the print. If so,j have them print on canvas and save yourself $9,700.

For $10K, I would commission an art student to paint a picture of my wife in the style of Michael Dahl.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by unclescrooge »

ualdriver wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:25 pm He-he. Yeah. And I should have bought the engagement ring with the glass in it instead of diamonds, right? :D
Yes. Have you heard of moissanite?
A fraction of the cost and virtually indistinguishable from a diamond.
Mindbender
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Mindbender »

10k for fine art doesn’t seem completely out of place for this forum so some of the responses surprise me.

As far as the OP’s question I’d trust your gut with this one. If it seems shady or suspect then don’t do it. Wanting your own independent appraisal seems reasonable to me.

It’s not fine art but I enjoy commissioning local artists to make pieces. It has more value to me than a $60 framed print. :oops:
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Picasso
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Picasso »

Just looked up Previous sales by this artist in Invaluable art sales database. Looks like recent auction sales for portraits are between £2000-3000. Just another data point.
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by VanGogh »

Maybe a print from Fine Art America would do: https://fineartamerica.com/art/michael+dahl
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Picasso
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Picasso »

If you want to buy something that actually has some merit, why not this study for Flaming June that I wish I could afford.

https://www.gallery19c.com/artworks/9371/
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by IowaFarmBoy »

newyorker wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 8:30 pm I think 10k value is really iffy of a value. Its not pricey enough to have it properly appraised nor cheap enough to buy it blind.
I think newyorker makes a good point here. I'm not really into art but my MIL was and we have inherited quite a bit. Most of our inherited works haven't retained a lot of value but one work has done well. We visited a lot of galleries with her over the years on vacations and it wasn't uncommon to see new works in the galleries priced from $3000-5000. I would never dream of getting an appraisal for one of those gallery offerings but those were new works with provenance directly from the artist. It's hard to know what level of diligence is typical for a $10k purchase. I'd tend to look at how reliable the dealer was, what guarantees they offer, what provenance they have, how reputable the appraiser they offered to use was, etc. I also would probably google the artist to get a sense of value. (I actually did this and it seems like $10k is within reason for a Dahl depending on size, subject matter, etc. although many appear to be quite a bit less.) It also seems like there is a big range of appraised values for a given piece depending on the purpose of the appraisal- whether a "selling to a dealer" appraisal, a retail appraisal, an insurance replacement appraisal, etc.
DoTheMath
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by DoTheMath »

Michael Lewis has a podcast episode on the "authentication" of a new da Vinci painting you would find interesting to listen to:

https://atrpodcast.com/episodes/the-han ... o-s1!7616f
“I am losing precious days. I am degenerating into a machine for making money. I am learning nothing in this trivial world of men. I must break away and get out into the mountains...” -- John Muir
Nowizard
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Nowizard »

Frankly, many would not consider this price "Fine art," but would consider it as a sign that the purchaser was able to either discern that it was worth a significant sum or simply financially stable enough to make the purchase. Happy wife, happy life. The comment about overly examining the purchase and then making it affecting her enjoyment is worth consideration.

Tim
Dottie57
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Dottie57 »

Paintings go in and out of style . Values go up and down. Neither you or your wife have actually seen the painting - the photo could have been enhanced. 10k Is a lot of money! What provenance does it have?

Lots of negatives.

That being said, there is a piece of art / craft I wish I had bought from a living artist. Not nearly your price, but a stretch for me at the time. She no longer creates new pieces. :(
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by forgeblast »

Look at it as pawn stars. A person has an object, the person buying it (the pawn stars) bring in their expert they trust. You want an impartial person.
The 10k is not going to the artist, there is a lot going to the gallery.
I was looking at buying a few pieces that I really liked but at that time the pop art market was hitting all time highs, so I walked. I am kind of glad I did as I like the picture, our tastes have changed.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by unclescrooge »

Dottie57 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:54 am
That being said, there is a piece of art / craft I wish I had bought from a living artist. Not nearly your price, but a stretch for me at the time. She no longer creates new pieces. :(
I recently bought a piece of art directly from the artist. It's a gallery proof so I paid a fraction of the cost of the original, which was $11,000.

But it looks just as stunning and makes me just as happy.

I've been eyeing that piece for 2 years and finally pulled the plug, during covid.

I also just ordered a print on canvas for $470, again from another artist, for a 20th of the cost of the original. Let's see how that turns out.

But my favorite artwork, by far, is a print of Girl with Leopard ii by Philip Noyer. I took from my in laws and had reframed.
austin757
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by austin757 »

After you buy the art, will she let you buy a plane? :D

Seems fair, right?
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ualdriver
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by ualdriver »

austin757 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 9:40 am After you buy the art, will she let you buy a plane? :D

Seems fair, right?
He he. She already did let me buy a plane, but with two other guys. Maybe I should tell her to find some partners for this piece of art and we can all share it : )

Much appreciate all the comments.
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Chicken lady
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Chicken lady »

Google 'art forgeries.' It's big business - even prestigious museums have been hoodwinked in fairly recent years. If the experts are fooled, what makes you think you are going to fare better? 50% chance maybe? Definitely not by using the auctioneer's 'expert.'

If this painting is 'the one' and no other will do, go see it in person. If for any number of reasons that's not possible, troll the art auction sites in the USA for this artist's work and just wait a minute or two. You can sign up the the auction houses notification service and they'll send an email when something come up by the targeted artist.

If nothing else that will do other than the painting in question and there's a lot of drama associated with the 'buy or not to buy' issue and you can afford it - just buy it.
BrooklynInvest
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by BrooklynInvest »

Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder here.

Has any of the artist's works been auctioned online lately? There's very little opportunity to get an accurate resale value (which is what you're looking for right?) but a reasonable assumption is it'll be a fraction of the $10k unless there's been some findable examples to the contrary.

I sometimes get the urge to buy prints. I'm a photographer. But I keep coming back to "why would I pay for scarcity value when any scarcity could be eliminated easily?"

Good luck!
oldfort
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by oldfort »

Rick Ferri wrote: Tue Sep 08, 2020 6:56 pm When you buy art, you're supporting the artist. It's how they eat. But don't think for a second that it's an investment. It is not.

Rick Ferri
If it's the Dahl I'm thinking of, the artist has been dead for almost three hundred years.
Caduceus
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by Caduceus »

In situations like these, focus on two things.

First, the reputation of the dealer is paramount. Is this someone who has been in business for a while and who has a good reputation? Honest fine art dealers will take back proven fakes and reimburse clients. Some dealers have actually gone out of business for selling fakes that they didn't realize themselves were fakes. You don't want to be known as a gallery that peddles in forgeries because no one will buy from you in the future. So maybe that's where the "offense" came from - if they are an art gallery with a sterling reputation.

Second, ask for the provenance of the painting. How did the gallery acquire it? Does it have a documented, provable provenance? A painting like that should have provenance of some sort. Pay attention to how the gallery describes it. Is it listed as a Dahl or only as "attributed" to him?

In any case, another option would be to ask for a discount equal to or maybe a little more than the cost of the appraisal and be done with it. The type of analysis that you are talking about, where people analyze paints and canvas and use all kinds of sophisticated equipment doesn't seem worth it at all for a $10,000 painting. Proper appraisals don't come cheap. So maybe get him to knock it down to $9,000 and be done with it. If your wife has fallen in love with it, odds are she'll end up buying it.

My own weakness is antiques. I'm frugal in just about every area of my life but I make a couple of significant purchases every year, and there is simply no substitute for educating yourself. My sense is that there's really not much interest in Western-style portraits of the type you describe to warrant a serious effort at forgery. There's more than enough of these types of paintings floating about in the art market that have a hard time getting sold to any one at all.

If it's just the decoration that you like, you can just send a picture of the painting to one of those websites that specialize in duplicating paintings and get a reproduction you can hang on your wall for maybe $300 or so.
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unclescrooge
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Re: Buying Fine Art - advice needed.....

Post by unclescrooge »

Caduceus wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:09 am

If it's just the decoration that you like, you can just send a picture of the painting to one of those websites that specialize in duplicating paintings and get a reproduction you can hang on your wall for maybe $300 or so.
Which sites are these?
Have you had personal experience?
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