Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

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DTalos
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Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

When one disputes a charge on a credit card for a product that was unsatisfactory (and the merchant doesn't return calls/emails and doesn't fulfill 100% money back guarantee) who generally prevails in these disputes--the customer or merchant?
sailaway
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by sailaway »

It depends on the amount, the details, and the card itself.
GuyInFL
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by GuyInFL »

What’s the dollar value? I recently was shorted on a shipment and the credit card company gave me credit without contacting the vendor.
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DTalos
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

sailaway wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:59 pm It depends on the amount, the details, and the card itself.
Some credit card companies are more like to side with one party vs another in a dispute? What amount of dispute would a credit card company generally side with the customer?
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by nisiprius »

I don't know about "generally," but I can tell you that I've disputed charges about six times in thirty years, and every time it was resolved quickly in my favor. My account was credited with the disputed amount instantly. In about two of those cases, the credit card company warned me that they would "investigate," and that the charge might be reinstated if their investigation showed that the charge was correct--but that never happened.

I was told once that they might be getting back to me and that I might need to send them documentation about the transaction--but they never did.

One was, I think, innocent double-billing by a travel company. One was an eBay seller who kept saying he was about to ship in a few days, but didn't. One was a genuinely-fraudulent $1,000 payment to "FireCash," which processes credit cards for online casinos, which may have been connected to paying with a credit card at a small motel. One was an online subscription that did not stop billing monthly despite repeated attempts to cancel.

Two weeks ago, a student I am tutoring, who speaks English fluently but imperfectly, asked for help composing an email to a youth hostel; she had booked a room at a discounted rate on booking.com but her credit card had been charged the full rate, and she'd been told verbally that the difference would be refunded--but it hadn't been. I said "don't send the email yet. First contact your credit card company at the number printed back on the card, say "I want to dispute the bill," and give them the reservation number you had at booking.com." She said she had done so and gotten her refund immediately.

Now, just to be clear: all of these cases were ones where I actually was in the right. And as you see, I don't do it very often so wouldn't be flagged as someone who disputes charges a lot.

But my impression is that disputing a charge is an excellent way to light a fire under a merchant who seems to be giving you a runaround, or slow-walking resolving a complaint. If my first attempt to get a merchant to resolve a complaint doesn't succeed, I don't waste any more time--going to the credit card company and disputing the bill is my second step.

Among other things, there's a time limit for disputing a bill--I think it is sixty days. They can go by surprisingly quickly if you're busy, so one thing you do not want to do is let a merchant run out the clock with repeated promises to do something "next week."
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by galawdawg »

Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Nate79 »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:57 pm When one disputes a charge on a credit card for a product that was unsatisfactory (and the merchant doesn't return calls/emails and doesn't fulfill 100% money back guarantee) who generally prevails in these disputes--the customer or merchant?
What do you mean "unsatisfactory"?
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DTalos
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by galawdawg »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by kiwi123 »

Always been in my favor with minimal issues (about once every 3 years), but has always been a clean cut case of fraud, not receiving he product, being overcharged, etc. etc. with some level of documentation available to back up my claim if needed.

I've heard that if you do too many claims they might deny you or put you through the ringer (rightfully so if you're abusing the process).
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by pondering »

Keep documentation of your good faith effort to resolve the issue with the merchant.

The credit card company simply doesn't give the proceeds out of the next time the merchant sends a card through.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Cruise »

I've made just a few chargeback disputes over my lifetime:

1. A major hotel chain with a luxury property in Beijing overcharged me by $60 on a $1200 bill (They DCCd me even though I noted I did not want to). I disputed the $60 with JP Morgan, and they sent an inquiry to the Beijing property, which had 60 days to respond. Beijing did not respond, so JP Morgan refunded my $1200 bill!!

2. Ticketmaster did not refund my "postponed" concert ticket charges, despite not rescheduling the concert and failing to honor their word to refund me. JP Morgan finally got me my money back after they escalated it to a "special team."

3. Cruise line failed to return deposit on timely basis. With the help of JP Morgan, they finally saw the light and issued a refund.
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DTalos
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by tibbitts »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
I don't think you're going to get much benefit from this discussion without providing more details, but the charge being "on hold" is not particularly good news. That's happened in every one of my dispute cases - the charge is initially removed from the account. I believe that will happen even if your dispute has virtually no merit. The charge will reappear in a month or two if it's not resolved in your favor.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by barnaclebob »

I think my record is 2 and 1. The 1 was because they callede back but my voicemail wasnt setup so i didnt get to plead my case.
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DTalos
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

tibbitts wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
I don't think you're going to get much benefit from this discussion without providing more details, but the charge being "on hold" is not particularly good news. That's happened in every one of my dispute cases - the charge is initially removed from the account. I believe that will happen even if your dispute has virtually no merit. The charge will reappear in a month or two if it's not resolved in your favor.

If the credit card company does not find in my favor, is there an appeal process?
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Cruise »

DTalos wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:19 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm

Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
I don't think you're going to get much benefit from this discussion without providing more details, but the charge being "on hold" is not particularly good news. That's happened in every one of my dispute cases - the charge is initially removed from the account. I believe that will happen even if your dispute has virtually no merit. The charge will reappear in a month or two if it's not resolved in your favor.

If the credit card company does not find in my favor, is there an appeal process?
This is the process:

1. You attempt to get a remedy from the business.
2. If #1 does not work, you file a dispute with CC company, providing factual information and support.
3. CC company issues you a credit for the amount, pending a reply from the business.
4. Typically, the business replies, and then:
5. CC company solicits your response to the business' response
6. You inform the CC company why business' response is BS, providing factual support.
7. CC company either issues a chargeback or finds in favor of business.
8. You can contact CC company and request reconsideration.

There are deadlines for the process. Follow them, or the process may prove unsuccessful or take much longer than you expect.

Like another poster or two suggested, we could be a lot more helpful if you provided some information. Trust me, the business or CC company is not surveilling this forum in hopes of matching your anonymous posting to some real-life situation.
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DTalos
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by DTalos »

Cruise wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:59 am
DTalos wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:19 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
I don't think you're going to get much benefit from this discussion without providing more details, but the charge being "on hold" is not particularly good news. That's happened in every one of my dispute cases - the charge is initially removed from the account. I believe that will happen even if your dispute has virtually no merit. The charge will reappear in a month or two if it's not resolved in your favor.

If the credit card company does not find in my favor, is there an appeal process?
This is the process:

1. You attempt to get a remedy from the business.
2. If #1 does not work, you file a dispute with CC company, providing factual information and support.
3. CC company issues you a credit for the amount, pending a reply from the business.
4. Typically, the business replies, and then:
5. CC company solicits your response to the business' response
6. You inform the CC company why business' response is BS, providing factual support.
7. CC company either issues a chargeback or finds in favor of business.
8. You can contact CC company and request reconsideration.

There are deadlines for the process. Follow them, or the process may prove unsuccessful or take much longer than you expect.

Like another poster or two suggested, we could be a lot more helpful if you provided some information. Trust me, the business or CC company is not surveilling this forum in hopes of matching your anonymous posting to some real-life situation.

Thank you for the explanation of the process.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

I've had several disputes over the years, winning all of them. I do remember on one call with the cc company, I asked how this works. They told me that the merchant is charged $35 instantly for the dispute and if they lost, would have whatever payment was in question with held. Because merchants are charged money to begin with, they pay more attention to the cc company than to you.

If you put Paypal in the middle of the transaction, there's more of a chance you will lose, even with all the proof in the world.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by tibbitts »

DTalos wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:19 am If the credit card company does not find in my favor, is there an appeal process?
It depends. I have only had to get to that stage only one time, and it was not resolved in my favor. Although I called to appeal, it was instantaneously rejected. Basically I had authorized the company to charge my card per-use, but in this case I had not used their service. The use authorization, and the fact that I had used their services in the past with the same card, was sufficient evidence for Chase in this case to side with the merchant. I had first appealed to the merchant, then Chase. I went back to the merchant, multiple times, and eventually through some highly unlikely circumstances, they realized that the charge was in error and reversed it. But had the merchant not done that I would have been left with the fees from three charges, fortunately only about $100 in my case.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by JBTX »

I've only ever done it a couple of times and it just created a bigger mess. My impression was the credit was considered temporary until you worked it out with provider.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by tibbitts »

JBTX wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 8:17 am I've only ever done it a couple of times and it just created a bigger mess. My impression was the credit was considered temporary until you worked it out with provider.
I do believe the card company will pursue your issue to some degree with the merchant, but I think Bogleheads are often too quick to assume that they'll win disputes. As in my case, even when you know you couldn't have possibly performed a transaction, you won't always win with the credit card company. The terms and conditions on services tend to favor the merchant in cases of disputes.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by THY4373 »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
That is pretty much their standard first step so I wouldn't read too much into it. I have done a number of chragebacks related to travel over the past several months. They were all resolved in my favor with the exception of one where the vendor refunded me after I started the process. That said I can see at least at Amex that the system seems to be slowing down as compared to several months ago. I presume because of a flood of COVID related chargebacks.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by denovo »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
That doesn't mean anything. All credit card companies will issue a temporary credit when you file a dispute.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Bobby206
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Bobby206 »

I recently had two, both over $1,000, both related to Covid cancellations, and the credit card company sided with the vendors in BOTH cases. I was really shocked about the one (a concert that was cancelled).
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by chemocean »

When we returned a recently installed third-party catalytic converter that failed the diagnostic test after a week and had an OEM catalytic converter installed, we recovered our full charge including labor installation during the dispute.
When we disputed high administrative costs for a toll transponder used in a foreign country that were not disclosed in the rental agreement, the travel credit card company said there was nothing that they could do.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Katietsu »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 6:49 am I've had several disputes over the years, winning all of them. I do remember on one call with the cc company, I asked how this works. They told me that the merchant is charged $35 instantly for the dispute and if they lost, would have whatever payment was in question with held. Because merchants are charged money to begin with, they pay more attention to the cc company than to you.

If you put Paypal in the middle of the transaction, there's more of a chance you will lose, even with all the proof in the world.
This is interesting as I think there is another thread somewhere that using Paypal virtually guarantees that the customer/buyer is always right. And the buyer will always win.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by tesuzuki2002 »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:57 pm When one disputes a charge on a credit card for a product that was unsatisfactory (and the merchant doesn't return calls/emails and doesn't fulfill 100% money back guarantee) who generally prevails in these disputes--the customer or merchant?
If the Merchant doesn't return calls... you basically get your money back... I've won $1000 dollar claims with product issues and poor customer service.... The CC companies don't have time for that... they just force the charge back and take the money.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by CascadiaSoonish »

I had an unusual dispute a couple years ago. Signed up for a monthly program where I earned credits towards a service. Halfway through the year-long program, vendor changed the redemption terms of the credits, greatly reducing the value of the credit. Contested it with Chase and got nowhere. I think the hard thing here for Chase to judge was that I was still receiving the credit, so "value" was subjective. Caveat emptor. I'll never sign up for a program like that again.
Last edited by CascadiaSoonish on Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mgensler
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by mgensler »

When we had our business, customers with Amex cards almost always won. One important point is if you don't have the product, you should win. Example: returned, never shipped, stolen off the porch, etc.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by chinchin »

Bought some Hawaiian coffee and some misc. snacks and accessories. They sent me everything but the coffee. Even though their packing slip shows it checked off. The thing is there is no way it would have fit in the Fedex box they used. I used a Navy Federal branded Amex card. Emailed the coffee company. We'll see how it goes.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Thegame14 »

sailaway wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:59 pm It depends on the amount, the details, and the card itself.
+1, you need to give more details, you cant juts buy a product not be happy and get a refund..... If I pay for a movie and the movie IMO sucks, I don't get to ask the movie theater for my money back. Maybe you expected too much, so unless the product was not as advertised or was broken, just not being happy with it, Is not cause for a refund.
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by sailaway »

chinchin wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:05 pm Bought some Hawaiian coffee and some misc. snacks and accessories. They sent me everything but the coffee. Even though their packing slip shows it checked off. The thing is there is no way it would have fit in the Fedex box they used. I used a Navy Federal branded Amex card. Emailed the coffee company. We'll see how it goes.
I once ordered 2 two packs and only received two total. The seller insisted that I misunderstood what a two pack was...the website (sears, maybe?) said that the seller had made an understandable mistake and there was nothing they could do ... cc took care of it once I emailed the invoice clearly showing 2 two packs. I always start with the merchant, but dang if explaining 2 two packs = 4 that many times wasn't maddening.
egrets
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by egrets »

Over the decades I have several times disputed a charge. The credit card company always credited the amount to my card immediately, sent me a letter, I never heard anything else from either the merchant or the credit card company. Most recently this was with CapitalOne. All bets are off with Amex or BofA as far as I am concerned, based on their general behavior.
egrets
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by egrets »

Bobby206 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:30 am I recently had two, both over $1,000, both related to Covid cancellations, and the credit card company sided with the vendors in BOTH cases. I was really shocked about the one (a concert that was cancelled).
Which credit card company?
Bobby206
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Bobby206 »

egrets wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 4:59 pm
Bobby206 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:30 am I recently had two, both over $1,000, both related to Covid cancellations, and the credit card company sided with the vendors in BOTH cases. I was really shocked about the one (a concert that was cancelled).
Which credit card company?
Cap One. I was VERY unimpressed with them.
Doodadooh
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Doodadooh »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:57 pm When one disputes a charge on a credit card for a product that was unsatisfactory (and the merchant doesn't return calls/emails and doesn't fulfill 100% money back guarantee) who generally prevails in these disputes--the customer or merchant?
In my experience, the customer almost always has the upper hand. I've had numerous successful charge-backs, one which even enabled me to retain the product without payment. Unfortunately for the merchant it's the cost of doing business. Unless there is a clear pattern of abuse, the credit card company has no incentive to penalize the customer.
darrvao777
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by darrvao777 »

with amex, i always win

i put most of my big purchases on amex for this reason
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ResearchMed
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by ResearchMed »

I've tried to use Amex for anything that might even remotely end up with a dispute.

The one time that I actually needed to submit docs and emails because the vendor kept denying things (thank goodness for the emails, which avoided the they said/I said dance), Amex ended up making the temporary credit permanent.
And, because the shipping label to return the wrong items never arrived, Amex told us to keep the wrong shipment, too. We donated those, as the items took up a lot of room and we just didn't need them.

But I think asking "Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?" isn't really helpful.
It obviously depends upon the situation, which could range all the way from the seller being a total scam artist, to the buyer trying to keep something that arrived intact, etc., and I suspect it's rarely at either extreme.

So it would obviously depend upon the specifics, sometimes including what type of documentation one has, or photos of the item, etc. There can't be one party who "generally prevails"; given the wide variety of circumstances.
But if you think you have a good case, with documentation, and the decision is with the other party, I'd suggest escalating it and also making *sure* that the card vendor is looking at the right part of the documentation. They can't be as famiiar with the situation as the buyer would be.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.
protagonist
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by protagonist »

nisiprius wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:15 pm I don't know about "generally," but I can tell you that I've disputed charges about six times in thirty years, and every time it was resolved quickly in my favor. My account was credited with the disputed amount instantly. In about two of those cases, the credit card company warned me that they would "investigate," and that the charge might be reinstated if their investigation showed that the charge was correct--but that never happened.
That was exactly my experience.

The latest was when I received some patio chairs a few weeks ago that were damaged on arrival. The company agreed to take them back but wanted me to pay return shipping, even after seeing photos of the damage.

I called the CC company....they just told me to keep the chairs and they would refund the charges. That simple.


I had a similar incident with a vacuum sealer that was defective a couple of months ago. I wanted to either get a refund or exchange it for a good one. The company was making me go through hoops, so after a week of exchanging emails I called the CC company. They immediately reversed the charges, did not require that I return the item, and, as per your experience, said that they would investigate but I never heard another word.

I have had fraudulent charges appear not infrequently....maybe once every 5 years or so....and they have always been immediately reversed.
chinchin
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by chinchin »

If the credit card company takes your side in the dispute, can you get black balled from the merchant? Does the CC take the money back from the merchant, or do they write it off themselves? I like the coffee co I am in a dispute with and don't want to get banned. But I also want the $55 of product I paid for.
jcar
Posts: 262
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Location: NC

Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by jcar »

I've had a few over the years and they were promptly refunded. I had a biggie in April when a cruise via Princess was cancelled. They told us not to contact credit card and then they kept pushing back refund date. Finally in June I disputed via credit card and was refunded full amount in less than 24 hours. The MC guy said he had handled hundreds of vacation disputes like that and these companies were just using your cash.
Mudpuppy
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Mudpuppy »

chinchin wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm If the credit card company takes your side in the dispute, can you get black balled from the merchant? Does the CC take the money back from the merchant, or do they write it off themselves? I like the coffee co I am in a dispute with and don't want to get banned. But I also want the $55 of product I paid for.
Yes, a merchant can refuse to do business with someone as long as the reason is not a legal or regulatory protected category. This would be a valid reason for the merchant to refuse to do business with you. The CC company usually takes the money back from the merchant, from my understanding of the process. If the merchant is a scam / con that has already split with the money, then the CC company might have to write it off.

Honestly though, the only time I've gotten to the point of having to file a dispute was when my card was stolen in the 1990's. These days, with legitimate merchants at least, just threatening to file a dispute in email, chats, etc. tends to get the issue elevated to the proper customer service rep to resolve the issue. I had to do that most recently when a Walmart package was sitting at "label created" in the shipping status for three weeks. The first two attempts to contact customer service only resulted in a form email reply that said nothing about this issue. On the third attempt, I specifically said this was my third attempt to contact, the previous form replies did not address this issue, and if I didn't have a resolution on this attempt, I would be filing a dispute with the credit card company. I had a phone call response within two hours that refunded the charge. The item has never arrived.

This also worked in the past when a company shipped me a Honeywell humidifier instead of a Honeywell HEPA filter. They wanted the humidifier back before sending the HEPA filter, but they also didn't want to pay for a shipping label. This approach got them to pretty quickly send me a shipping label for the humidifier to be sent back, because they knew a CC company would side with the customer in a "wrong item received, I'm not paying more to correct the merchant's mistake" sort of dispute.

So try this approach with the coffee company. Clearly, without emotion, state what the issue is again (e.g. package was supposed to have XYZ, but package only contained ABC). Outline how many previous contacts have been made on this issue and why the previous contacts have been unsatisfactory. State what you expect (e.g. refund, or reshipment of missing items). And state that you will elevate if necessary.
chinchin
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by chinchin »

Happy to report that the coffee co is sending me the missing items. Customer service is not dead! :beer
Chris K Jones
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by Chris K Jones »

I have probably disputed items 10 or 15 times in 30 years. I have always been in the right with these disputes and credit card company has always seen it my way. The most recent was an Amazon purchase for 20 dollars or so. Amazon and UPS said it was delivered, but I never received it. Amazon had no way to contest it online. They pointed me to UPS' website. I completed longish claim at UPS.com, but it required an answer to a question and it wouldn't take my answer (Asked how many parcels were received. Wouldn't take none or zero or 0) so I couldnt file claim. I went to credit card site (USAA Visa) and answered few questions. Got instant "temporary" credit which 2 or 3 weeks later was made permanent. I have never been turned down. I have always been reasonable with these though. Best wishes
boglegirl
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by boglegirl »

Bobby206 wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 11:30 am I recently had two, both over $1,000, both related to Covid cancellations, and the credit card company sided with the vendors in BOTH cases. I was really shocked about the one (a concert that was cancelled).
Wow - what is the vendor planning on doing? Are they holding a credit for you, pending a re-schedule date?

I got a >$1000 COVID refund but I think the vendor still has another month or so to make their case against it. (My letter from Chase about a month ago said the vendor had 60 days to respond).

I'm considering charging back a different ~$100 COVID-related charge, but the terms under which the charge was made said refunds were not possible under any circumstances even if the event was canceled...that's the last running race I ever register for, I guess. I might try the chargeback just in case - if I'm not planning on running any more races it doesn't matter if the race director bans me.
z91
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by z91 »

Depends on a lot of factors. Amex used to be like this, but I stopped using them for various reasons, so I don't know why. FWIW I've never lost a chargeback with any company so far, but I'd like to think that's mostly due to working with them in good faith and not trying to pull a fast one.

One time I went to an auto parts store and they had an item clearly tagged at ~$2. I was charged $7 and didn't realize until I got home; it was on my way home from a road trip, so no way I was driving out the 100+ miles to return it. I called them up, the clerk wanted nothing to do with me, so I kicked off the chargeback process. I was given the credit back immediately. I suspect the CC company just ate the difference and called it a day.

Another time I had my tires rotated. They double charged me. I called them up, they said they'd get their boss to look into it. 2 weeks later after multiple calls I got nowhere, so I kicked off the chargeback. They definitely heard about it and tried calling me several times to try and resolve it. They never left a voicemail so I have no idea if they were trying to fix it or just yell at me, so I never returned their call. I got my credit immediately and it was posted within ~3 weeks.

My biggest chargeback was when someone sold me a laptop that had water damage and wouldn't charge. It was $800+ and I got the laptop right before a 7 day cruise. I was pretty upset to say the least, especially when the seller was playing games and working around Paypal policies. After faxing information over back and forth, I got my credit and it was finalized after a month. Longest month ever for me. I was out return shipping back to the scammer, but I was glad to have that resolved.
ballons
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by ballons »

chinchin wrote: Sat Sep 05, 2020 10:44 pm If the credit card company takes your side in the dispute, can you get black balled from the merchant? Does the CC take the money back from the merchant, or do they write it off themselves? I like the coffee co I am in a dispute with and don't want to get banned. But I also want the $55 of product I paid for.
Taking your side does not absolve you from that debt. If the amount is high enough and you failed to make reasonable efforts to remedy your issue, the merchant can go after you in court.

https://www.creditcards.com/credit-card ... t-can-sue/
seawolf21
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by seawolf21 »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:35 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:26 pm Each credit card dispute is decided on its own merits. No party is "more likely" to prevail over another.

That being said, there may be some issuers who "eat" very small dollar amount disputes to avoid the expense of handling the matter. For example, anecdotally I have heard that AMEX will just credit a customer if the dispute is less than $20 or so. But I wouldn't recommend that anyone "exploit" that as an opportunity to get something for nothing....

Do you have an actual issue or just too much time on your hands tonight? :wink: :happy
Actual issue.
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
It will be hard for the forum to determine without knowing details. "Unsatisfactory" is not a valid chargeback reason.
Cruise wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:59 am
DTalos wrote: Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:19 am
tibbitts wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:52 pm
DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm
galawdawg wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:52 pm
If you don't mind sharing some of the details, I'm sure your fellow Bogleheads will be happy to provide any suggestions or tips that will help in your efforts to resolve the issue.

I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
I don't think you're going to get much benefit from this discussion without providing more details, but the charge being "on hold" is not particularly good news. That's happened in every one of my dispute cases - the charge is initially removed from the account. I believe that will happen even if your dispute has virtually no merit. The charge will reappear in a month or two if it's not resolved in your favor.

If the credit card company does not find in my favor, is there an appeal process?
This is the process:

1. You attempt to get a remedy from the business.
2. If #1 does not work, you file a dispute with CC company, providing factual information and support.
3. CC company issues you a credit for the amount, pending a reply from the business.
4. Typically, the business replies, and then:
5. CC company solicits your response to the business' response
6. You inform the CC company why business' response is BS, providing factual support.
7. CC company either issues a chargeback or finds in favor of business.
8. You can contact CC company and request reconsideration.

There are deadlines for the process. Follow them, or the process may prove unsuccessful or take much longer than you expect.

Like another poster or two suggested, we could be a lot more helpful if you provided some information. Trust me, the business or CC company is not surveilling this forum in hopes of matching your anonymous posting to some real-life situation.
That is generally the process but in more detail..

For each card transaction, the following parties are involved:
  • Card Member
  • Card Member Issuer Bank (Issuer)
  • Card Network (AMEX/VISA/MC/Disco)
  • Merchant Bank (Acquirer)
  • Merchant
When card member request a dispute, the Issuer may just eat the dispute and issue a permanent credit and not file a dispute especially if the amount is small. If Issuer does file a dispute, the Acquirer will reach out to merchant for a response/documentation.

The Issuer and Acquirer will work to resolve disputes governed by Card Network rules.
VISA Core Rules - https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/ ... public.pdf
Mastercard Rules - https://www.mastercard.us/content/dam/m ... -rules.pdf

If a resolution cannot be reached, Card Network (VISA/MC etc) can be brought in for arbitration but arbitration fees are involved.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Credit Card Charge Dispute Who Generally Prevails?

Post by UpperNwGuy »

DTalos wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:27 pm I'd rather not disclose details about the company or product. The CC company told me the charge is on hold. I suppose that's a good first step in my favor.
The reality is that some special circumstances have come into play in the last six months, so your unwillingness to disclose details about the company or the product may make much of this advice out-of-date. The special circumstances relate to COVID-19 and the travel industry. The major credit card companies, who used to side primarily with the cardholder in such disputes have gotten much more cautious because of the massive number of disputes relating to refunds for cancelled travel arrangements. So if your dispute falls into this arena, you can ignore much of what has been written in this thread. To paraphrase some of the investors who post here, "This time it's different."
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