Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

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newbie003
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Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by newbie003 »

In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.

Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?

Or do I need to get my outlets in the room checked out by an electrician?

Thank you.
DSInvestor
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by DSInvestor »

Specifications page for Brother HL-L6200DW
https://www.brother-usa.com/products/hl ... cification

Power Consumption - Power Off/Deep Sleep/Sleep/Ready/Printing 0.03W / 1.3W / 6.7W / 32W / 670W

As you can see, deep sleep and sleep do not draw very much. If you print, the printer has to heat up and this consumes quite a bit of power. I believe the power draw is related to the fuser (heated rollers) to melt the toner and bond it to the paper.
Last edited by DSInvestor on Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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newbie003
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by newbie003 »

DSInvestor wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:44 am Specifications page for Brother HL-L6200DW
https://www.brother-usa.com/products/hl ... cification

Power Consumption - Power Off/Deep Sleep/Sleep/Ready/Printing 0.03W / 1.3W / 6.7W / 32W / 670W
Thank you. Given that wattage, is it normal for a backup to trip for a second or two?
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by neurosphere »

newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.

Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?

Or do I need to get my outlets in the room checked out by an electrician?

Thank you.
My lights all dim in the apartment everytime the printer starts up. I suspect it draws a huge current to start up, which reduces the line voltage for quick moment, and the APC senses that as a potential failure and kicks in, in order to save the attached devices from seeing an outage.

And look, I found this: https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA158812/

Edit to add: any chance you can plug it into a outlet which is on a separate circuit/breaker than the APC backup? Put it in a different location or run an extension cord? Maybe you'll have to run upstairs to the bedroom everytime you want to retrieve the printer output. :D
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by TravelGeek »

newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:46 am
Thank you. Given that wattage, is it normal for a backup to trip for a second or two?
Don’t know if it is “normal” but about a decade ago I had a cheap Brother laser printer that did the same thing. Don’t recall the model number, but it was around $100 with a starter cartridge.

Today I have a Brother multi-functional device (printer, scanner, fax, copier) that doesn’t trigger my UPS.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by LiterallyIronic »

Hmm, I thought it was just me.

I have a wall socket (so two outlets) with a battery backup unit plugged into one and a power strip plugged into the other. Into the battery backup goes my desktop computer and two monitors. Into the power strip goes the computer's speakers, the external hard drive, the shredder, and the printer (Brother brand). Also into the power strip goes my work laptop, when I'm working from home (which is every day since March).

On the same circuit, per the circuit breaker, but different wall sockets are: the TV, NES, SNES, Nintendo64, GameCube, Wii, Wii U, Switch, Genesis, Xbox, PS1, PS2, PS4, and blu-ray player (there are four outlets, each with a power strip connected). As it turns out, one outlet in the kitchen is also on the same circuit, and that one has the microwave.

I've yet to figure out the "deadly" combination, but sometimes when I turn on the printer or use the microwave, it knocks the power out to my desktop computer. Which is weird, because it's plugged into a battery backup.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by lazydavid »

LiterallyIronic wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:54 am I've yet to figure out the "deadly" combination, but sometimes when I turn on the printer or use the microwave, it knocks the power out to my desktop computer. Which is weird, because it's plugged into a battery backup.
Sounds like your battery backup isn't. I bet if you unplug it from the wall, your computer will shut off.

For the OP, my Dell laser printer does the same thing when it comes out of sleep mode. The lights flicker and my UPS activates for about 3 seconds. Actually printing is no problem.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by MadHungarian »

Ah yes, laser printers have always been notorious for their peak current draw. In the old days at least, you were never supposed to connect them to your UPS, if i remember correctly.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Gray »

Never connect a laser printer to battery power. It isn’t worth it. A surge suppressor is sufficient. Most UPS have outlets that provide surge suppression without battery backup.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by TravelGeek »

MadHungarian wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:50 am Ah yes, laser printers have always been notorious for their peak current draw. In the old days at least, you were never supposed to connect them to your UPS, if i remember correctly.
Gray wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:54 am Never connect a laser printer to battery power. It isn’t worth it. A surge suppressor is sufficient. Most UPS have outlets that provide surge suppression without battery backup.
Just to be clear, the OP isn't using the APC UPS for the laser printer:
newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by ralph124cf »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:45 am
LiterallyIronic wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:54 am I've yet to figure out the "deadly" combination, but sometimes when I turn on the printer or use the microwave, it knocks the power out to my desktop computer. Which is weird, because it's plugged into a battery backup.
Sounds like your battery backup isn't. I bet if you unplug it from the wall, your computer will shut off.

For the OP, my Dell laser printer does the same thing when it comes out of sleep mode. The lights flicker and my UPS activates for about 3 seconds. Actually printing is no problem.
Battery backups have a limited lifetime, usually three to five years. Either replace the backup or just replace the battery in the UPS.

Ralph
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by hudson »

You never plug laser printers into a UPS.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by random_walker_77 »

Laser printers can draw very large instantaneous currents at start-up. That would cause a local voltage droop, causing the nearby UPS to kick on to counteract the brownout for the devices that the UPS is protecting.

https://www.donrowe.com/v/vspfiles/pdf/ ... _surge.pdf

This person measured short surges to 40-50A. The only reason the breakers don't trip is because the surge is so short.

(edit, double-pasted the link the first time)
Last edited by random_walker_77 on Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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newbie003
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by newbie003 »

Great, thanks everyone.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by lazydavid »

hudson wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:32 pm You never plug laser printers into a UPS.
And the OP isn't, as he clearly stated in his first post AND was conveniently reinforced just two posts above yours.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by dsmclone »

Same thing happens to me with my UPS(cyberpower) and my brother laser printer. I don't have the Brother plugged into the UPS. I assume the UPS is doing this as a safety measure. I just tested it and as soon as I plugged in the printer the UPS went on and said 117 volts. This is the only thing in the house that triggers the UPS. I don't know enough about electricity to know why this is happening but it's good to hear that it happens to other people. If I used my printer more than 3-4 times a year, maybe I'd worry more about it.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by dsmclone »

I just looked at my settings on my UPS and it says:

UPS will intervene when
AC utility voltage goes below 88 volts
AC utility voltage goes above 139

Input voltage sensitivity medium

What's weird is if my power goes out I will hear a loud beep. When this printer thing happens, I can just hear the UPS start up without a beep. I wish there were some kind of logs that would tell me more.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by miles2go »

Same issue with a different Laser printer (Dell). Ran a new circuit to printer and no longer an issue. Startup draw can be well over 1000 watts.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Chuck »

+1 this is totally normal, just your UPS doing its job. If you can plug the printer into a different circuit breaker, it would be better. But it doesn't really matter.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by wander »

It could be the UPS is too sensitive. When the UPS senses the distortion of the input (caused by the printer in this case), it transfers to battery operation to protect the output. You can try to lower sensitivity level. The manual should give you the instruction how to adjust it.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by hudson »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:00 pm
hudson wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:32 pm You never plug laser printers into a UPS.
And the OP isn't, as he clearly stated in his first post AND was conveniently reinforced just two posts above yours.
Thanks lazydavid! I screwed up....back to the drawing board.
I never had a laser printer trip a UPS that was on the same circuit.
It's troubleshooting time. Maybe plug the laser printer AND the UPS into another circuit and see if you can duplicate the problem.
That's what I would do first. If the problem happens on a separate circuit, it likely isn't a problem with the other circuit.
One might also look at what else is running on the circuit.

Bottom Line: troubleshoot a little and see if you can pinpoint the problem. You probably don't have an extra UPS that you can test with?
Last edited by hudson on Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by davebo »

I always thought it was just me. When I print, the lights always dim. Glad to hear I'm not alone.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by random_walker_77 »

Just noticed I messed up the link earlier. Now fixed -- looks to be an engineer's report investigating why a 450W laser printer was causing 1KW inverters to fail. There's a bunch of oscilloscope screenshots showing brief 4 KW spikes when the brother 4020 printer starts up. The summary mentions that some printers may have current limiters, but many apparently do not.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by inbox788 »

LiterallyIronic wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:54 am I have a wall socket (so two outlets) with a battery backup unit plugged into one and a power strip plugged into the other. Into the battery backup goes my desktop computer and two monitors. Into the power strip goes the computer's speakers, the external hard drive, the shredder, and the printer (Brother brand). Also into the power strip goes my work laptop, when I'm working from home (which is every day since March).

On the same circuit, per the circuit breaker, but different wall sockets are: the TV, NES, SNES, Nintendo64, GameCube, Wii, Wii U, Switch, Genesis, Xbox, PS1, PS2, PS4, and blu-ray player (there are four outlets, each with a power strip connected). As it turns out, one outlet in the kitchen is also on the same circuit, and that one has the microwave.

I've yet to figure out the "deadly" combination, but sometimes when I turn on the printer or use the microwave, it knocks the power out to my desktop computer. Which is weird, because it's plugged into a battery backup.
3 devices on the UPS
5 on the power strip
14 devices on the games outlets
1 microwave

What's the total power draw if you ran all the devices at once? Math question!

Seriously, other than the microwave and laser printer, what are the next 2-3 highest max power devices? Maybe the shredder and TV?

What happens to your desktop when you unplug the UPS from the wall? Make and model?

OP, as long as everything is working well, you've got yourself an automatic challenge test of the UPS function, which is a benefit, because you find out sooner than those that don't have any sign and don't do regular testing.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.

Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?

Or do I need to get my outlets in the room checked out by an electrician?
I don't put my printer on my UPS because I don't need to print while the power is out.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by lazydavid »

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:01 pm
newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.

Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?

Or do I need to get my outlets in the room checked out by an electrician?
I don't put my printer on my UPS because I don't need to print while the power is out.
And neither does the OP.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

lazydavid wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:16 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:01 pm
newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am
I don't put my printer on my UPS because I don't need to print while the power is out.
And neither does the OP.
You are absolutely correct, I biffed that 100%. Apologies.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by bertilak »

newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am In my home office (spare bedroom) I currently have a brother hl 6200 wireless printer plugged into one of the 4 outlets (nothing else in that outlet). Another outlet has an APC backup which clicks/trips every time I print something.

Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?

Or do I need to get my outlets in the room checked out by an electrician?

Thank you.
Much good info above. If the UPS and printer are on the same circuit (even if not the same outlet) and especially if there are other power draws on that same circuit the initial draw of the printer when it comes on may lower the voltage enough to trip the APC.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Mudpuppy »

newbie003 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:39 am Is that normal due to the printer drawing a large amount of power when coming out of sleep?
It's perfectly normal for a printer waking up anywhere on the same circuit (doesn't have to be the same outlet) as a UPS battery backup unit to trigger the brownout detection circuitry of the UPS due to the wake-up power draw of the printer. Depending on your specific UPS model, you might be able to adjust the sensitivity of the brownout detection algorithm, but I suspect the printer would still trip it. Printers just have a really high power draw on startup and this is a normal thing with them, along with the lights flickering / dimming.

When to call an electrician: If your UPS keeps tripping and you can't identify a huge power draw on that circuit, or you know for sure that the huge power draw is on a different circuit, then you should call an electrician. For example, if your HVAC unit causes the UPS to trip, that's not normal. The HVAC is on a different (usually dedicated) circuit, so that indicates an issue with your main breaker. Or if the lights are flickering only in one part of your home, but not the other, that could indicate a bad leg on the circuit panel or the main breaker.

Strange but true UPS adventures: When the power company rolled out their first Smart Meter in my neighborhood, they decided to use a data over the power line algorithm instead of using radio data transmission. Shortly after they installed the new meter, I noticed from my log files that my APC UPS unit would go into power conditioning mode on a very regular, predictable pattern. Then the APC unit failed entirely, and it was still under warranty, so I told APC about the log entries when I initiated the warranty exchange.

In a long conversation between APC and the power company investigating the early demise of the UPS, they determined that the algorithm the smart meter used to transmit data over the power line was triggering the zero-crossing logic in the APC unit, making it think that power was going out every time data was transmitted. The solution was that the power company installed a new smart meter, one using radio transmissions. They didn't install a radio receiver on their end though, so my smart meter wasn't able to call home with usage data.

Thus began the half-year odyssey of repeatedly having to call the power company to get a meter reader to come out because I'd get an absurdly high "estimated" power bill one month, a really small one when they'd send the meter reader out the next month, then another absurdly high "estimated" bill because they didn't keep sending the meter reader out. Eventually, they upgraded my entire town to smart meters with radio transmissions and the adventure was over.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Mudpuppy »

dsmclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:14 pm What's weird is if my power goes out I will hear a loud beep. When this printer thing happens, I can just hear the UPS start up without a beep. I wish there were some kind of logs that would tell me more.
That's normal for APC. It beeps on a blackout, but not on a brownout. If you're close to it, you can hear it click on a brownout though.

As for logs, does your unit have a UPS [correction: USB] port on the back of it? If so, it probably supports APC smart monitoring tools. There are both open source tools and APC's proprietary tools, but you have to have a unit that supports the tools.

Edit to correct a very silly typo that entirely changed the meaning.... this is what I get for posting while my tea is brewing instead of after having some tea.
Last edited by Mudpuppy on Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Mudpuppy »

TravelGeek wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:50 am Today I have a Brother multi-functional device (printer, scanner, fax, copier) that doesn’t trigger my UPS.
hudson wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:28 pm I never had a laser printer trip a UPS that was on the same circuit.
It's troubleshooting time. Maybe plug the laser printer AND the UPS into another circuit and see if you can duplicate the problem.
That's what I would do first. If the problem happens on a separate circuit, it likely isn't a problem with the other circuit.
One might also look at what else is running on the circuit.
It all depends on the nature of your electrical panel setup. For example, do you have 20amp circuits or 15amp circuits? If you have 20amp circuits, you won't see as many issues with a large power draw as those with a 15amp circuit. Now, if the OP has a 20amp circuit, but a 15amp outlet on that circuit, moving the printer and UPS to different outlets on the same circuit might help. But moving the printer to a different outlet on the same circuit won't help as much if the OP has a 15amp circuit.

Older houses very commonly only have 15amp circuits for the living areas and bedrooms. I know that's what the panel on my 1970s house looks like. My panel also has one absurdly large 15amp circuit covering both main living areas and the front porch lights. That would never fly with modern electrical code, but apparently it was fine in the 1970s. One of these days, I'll have to have the whole circuit rewired to properly split it into two circuits, but for the moment I just limit the electrical use in one room to keep the circuit balanced.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by The Electrician »

Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:10 pm
dsmclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:14 pm What's weird is if my power goes out I will hear a loud beep. When this printer thing happens, I can just hear the UPS start up without a beep. I wish there were some kind of logs that would tell me more.
That's normal for APC. It beeps on a blackout, but not on a brownout. If you're close to it, you can hear it click on a brownout though.

As for logs, does your unit have a UPS port on the back of it? If so, it probably supports APC smart monitoring tools. There are both open source tools and APC's proprietary tools, but you have to have a unit that supports the tools.
It is likely not beeping because the event is really short duration. The UPS is doing designed job and protecting loads. The wattage rating during printing is even less than hair dryers and isn't the problem. What is unknown without a spec or current recorder is the inrush current during the "awakening".
Bottom line, if it is only momentary then you do not have a problem. If you ever want to prevent it you may be able to balance your loads to other circuits (plug in stuff to receptacles fed from low use breakers). You would probably need a clamp-on ammeter to verify loading at your breaker panel. (The usual cautions must apply!)
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by random_walker_77 »

The Electrician wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:28 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:10 pm
dsmclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:14 pm What's weird is if my power goes out I will hear a loud beep. When this printer thing happens, I can just hear the UPS start up without a beep. I wish there were some kind of logs that would tell me more.
That's normal for APC. It beeps on a blackout, but not on a brownout. If you're close to it, you can hear it click on a brownout though.

As for logs, does your unit have a UPS port on the back of it? If so, it probably supports APC smart monitoring tools. There are both open source tools and APC's proprietary tools, but you have to have a unit that supports the tools.
It is likely not beeping because the event is really short duration. The UPS is doing designed job and protecting loads. The wattage rating during printing is even less than hair dryers and isn't the problem. What is unknown without a spec or current recorder is the inrush current during the "awakening".
Bottom line, if it is only momentary then you do not have a problem. If you ever want to prevent it you may be able to balance your loads to other circuits (plug in stuff to receptacles fed from low use breakers). You would probably need a clamp-on ammeter to verify loading at your breaker panel. (The usual cautions must apply!)
Yes exactly, except for the balancing loads part, which would work for minor surges, but not this.. I linked an engineer's report where they'd used an o-scope to record a 40-50 amp inrush current. With an instantaneously short 50A draw, you're going to get voltage droop, period.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by oldcomputerguy »

I believe what you're seeing is normal. I have a Brother B&W laser printer plugged into one of the "surge supressor" outlets on my APC XS1500 UPS. Whenever the printer wakes up from sleep and loads up to print, the UPS "blips" momentarily as though there was a surge or drop on the incoming AC. I do note that the display on the UPS showing the incoming line voltage drops from around 120v to about 50v for an instant during the printer startup, which is indicative of a large load being placed on the line during startup.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by DesertMan »

I have the same problem with an HP laser printer. I just took the printer off the UPS.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by LadyGeek »

Do the printer and UPS plugs go into properly grounded outlets? That's 3 prongs on the plug, not 2 prongs with an adapter.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by FishTaco »

Check to see if the 4 outlets are on the same circuit breaker. If they are on different breakers, put the UPS and printer on seperate breakers.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by crefwatch »

+1 for Mudpuppy's report. I have a 1955 expanded ranch with mostly 15Amp circuits. The spare bedroom is over 60' of wiring from the electrical panel. Luckily my Xerox laser printer (regularly cycled the UPS) gave out, and it happens that my newer HP MFP 426fdw doesn't draw as much startup current. The same elderly APC BAck-UPS 400 does not trip when the HP printer starts. (I never had either printer in the UPS, they are too big, and don't need UPS service like the computer itself does.)
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by The Electrician »

random_walker_77 wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:50 pm
The Electrician wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:28 pm
Mudpuppy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:10 pm
dsmclone wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:14 pm What's weird is if my power goes out I will hear a loud beep. When this printer thing happens, I can just hear the UPS start up without a beep. I wish there were some kind of logs that would tell me more.
That's normal for APC. It beeps on a blackout, but not on a brownout. If you're close to it, you can hear it click on a brownout though.

As for logs, does your unit have a UPS port on the back of it? If so, it probably supports APC smart monitoring tools. There are both open source tools and APC's proprietary tools, but you have to have a unit that supports the tools.
It is likely not beeping because the event is really short duration. The UPS is doing designed job and protecting loads. The wattage rating during printing is even less than hair dryers and isn't the problem. What is unknown without a spec or current recorder is the inrush current during the "awakening".
Bottom line, if it is only momentary then you do not have a problem. If you ever want to prevent it you may be able to balance your loads to other circuits (plug in stuff to receptacles fed from low use breakers). You would probably need a clamp-on ammeter to verify loading at your breaker panel. (The usual cautions must apply!)
Yes exactly, except for the balancing loads part, which would work for minor surges, but not this.. I linked an engineer's report where they'd used an o-scope to record a 40-50 amp inrush current. With an instantaneously short 50A draw, you're going to get voltage droop, period.
walker -- my bad. My lazy self didn't check out your link before responding. Oscilloscope capture of the inrush current and voltage droop explains it well. Apparently there is a series of startup events with the printer heating and motors running so a pretty saggy situation, electricity-wise.
Probably interesting only to myself but over the years I've never commonly used the term "droop", but usually "drop" even though drop is relative to resistance and distance and droop is more appropriate relative to time. In my defense I would say "how much did the voltage drop (referring to the extent of the voltage dip) for how many cycles?". I new what I meant and I left it to the engineers to argue the semantics. Very happy I retired!
random_walker_77
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by random_walker_77 »

The Electrician wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 9:30 am Probably interesting only to myself but over the years I've never commonly used the term "droop", but usually "drop" even though drop is relative to resistance and distance and droop is more appropriate relative to time. In my defense I would say "how much did the voltage drop (referring to the extent of the voltage dip) for how many cycles?". I new what I meant and I left it to the engineers to argue the semantics. Very happy I retired!
That is interesting. I'm coming at it from a different angle, and this makes sense to me. As an electrician (hat tip to you), the steady state voltage drop for constant loads is what you'll usually be worried about. I'm more used to looking at low voltage dc droop on scopes such as "how to keep the voltage droop below 50mV in response to dynamic transients on a 800mV power rail".

High voltage (i.e. household 110V AC) scares the heck out of me. Hearing electricians talking about dealing with 10kV lines arc'ing in their previous career as lineman... wow, that's just a whole different world, and I'm glad I'm nowhere near that stuff.

The problem with electrical engineers such as myself is that we don't get much training on the practical. We barely learn to solder, and none (few?) of us get any hands-on training with voltages that are remotely dangerous. Someday, I might seek out training, but in the meantime, it's just deep respect for those who have the hands-on skills. I've always been amazed at the amazing soldering skills of the lab techs I've worked with -- soldering under a microscope still seems crazy to me.
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The Electrician
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by The Electrician »

random_walker_77
[/quote]
High voltage (i.e. household 110V AC)
[/quote]

:shock: You are correct! I was more familiar with the effect a distance fault on a 230KV transmission line had on our medium voltage 13.8 KV Bulk Stations and whether or not it caused undervoltage dropouts on low voltage (480V) motors. So 110V as "high voltage"? :D Although I'm pretty sure OSHA is strongly considering anything over 50 volts to be pretty dangerous. We were always told that more people died of household 110V than high voltages.
I was not a lineman but hats off to those learned engineers and skilled lineman keeping that grid intact especially those rebuilding in Louisiana!
LiterallyIronic
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by LiterallyIronic »

inbox788 wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 4:21 pm
LiterallyIronic wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:54 am I have a wall socket (so two outlets) with a battery backup unit plugged into one and a power strip plugged into the other. Into the battery backup goes my desktop computer and two monitors. Into the power strip goes the computer's speakers, the external hard drive, the shredder, and the printer (Brother brand). Also into the power strip goes my work laptop, when I'm working from home (which is every day since March).

On the same circuit, per the circuit breaker, but different wall sockets are: the TV, NES, SNES, Nintendo64, GameCube, Wii, Wii U, Switch, Genesis, Xbox, PS1, PS2, PS4, and blu-ray player (there are four outlets, each with a power strip connected). As it turns out, one outlet in the kitchen is also on the same circuit, and that one has the microwave.

I've yet to figure out the "deadly" combination, but sometimes when I turn on the printer or use the microwave, it knocks the power out to my desktop computer. Which is weird, because it's plugged into a battery backup.
3 devices on the UPS
5 on the power strip
14 devices on the games outlets
1 microwave

What's the total power draw if you ran all the devices at once? Math question!

Seriously, other than the microwave and laser printer, what are the next 2-3 highest max power devices? Maybe the shredder and TV?

What happens to your desktop when you unplug the UPS from the wall? Make and model?

OP, as long as everything is working well, you've got yourself an automatic challenge test of the UPS function, which is a benefit, because you find out sooner than those that don't have any sign and don't do regular testing.
Sorry, just saw your comment. I tested unplugging the UPS from the wall. Desktop computer loses power and turns off. The UPS is a Rocketfish 825VA. It's this one: https://www.newegg.com/rocketfish-rf-82 ... 6842102305, but I got it at Best Buy instead of Newegg.

I'm not sure how to determine the power draw of the devices, though, unless a Google search can tell me. The TV is a 14-year-old JVC 1080p 61" rear projection television. The blu-ray player is a Magnavox NB500MG1F. I would have to think that the desktop computer is going to be one of the biggest power consumers - I built it in 2016: i7 6700k, GTX 1080, 32GB DDR4-3200, 256GB SSD, 3x 2TB HDD, blu-ray drive, along with external 8TB HDD, 5.1 surround sound, two 24" monitors, keyboard, mouse, headset, controller.

But, typically, almost everything is off besides the computer (and the few consoles that have a standby mode).

I do know that I knocked out the TV's power once, by plugging in a space heater when I was watching a movie.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by hudson »

LiterallyIronic,
I'd unplug everything except the desktop and one monitor. Let the battery fully charge and try again. What happened?
I'd plug the TV and anything else in the non-battery/surge only side of the UPS.
How old is the UPS?
inbox788
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by inbox788 »

LiterallyIronic wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pmSorry, just saw your comment. I tested unplugging the UPS from the wall. Desktop computer loses power and turns off. The UPS is a Rocketfish 825VA. It's this one: https://www.newegg.com/rocketfish-rf-82 ... 6842102305, but I got it at Best Buy instead of Newegg.

I'm not sure how to determine the power draw of the devices, though, unless a Google search can tell me. The TV is a 14-year-old JVC 1080p 61" rear projection television. The blu-ray player is a Magnavox NB500MG1F. I would have to think that the desktop computer is going to be one of the biggest power consumers - I built it in 2016: i7 6700k, GTX 1080, 32GB DDR4-3200, 256GB SSD, 3x 2TB HDD, blu-ray drive, along with external 8TB HDD, 5.1 surround sound, two 24" monitors, keyboard, mouse, headset, controller.

But, typically, almost everything is off besides the computer (and the few consoles that have a standby mode).

I do know that I knocked out the TV's power once, by plugging in a space heater when I was watching a movie.
If all you've got is computer and monitors on the UPS, it's unlike to exceed the rated 450 watts. It common for computer power supplies to be rated 550 watts and draw 300 watts while being used. [just noticed the graphics card, so that might add 100-200 watts when it's heavily used -- that might take you over the 450 on startup...] Newer monitors should draw less than 50 watts. I'm guessing the battery in the UPS is dead. If you have an old incandescent lamp with 60 watts or 100 watts bulb, try that on the UPS alone unplugged. Or even a lower powered item that doesn't run tells you the battery has failed and it's basically acting like a power strip only. If the UPS can supply some 100 or 200 watt devices for a while, then the battery may be ok and you're overloading the power it can supply.

Google can help give you an idea. For example, this one draws 215 watts while running, and probably a bit more starting up.
https://www.cnet.com/products/jvc-hd-p6 ... v-full-hd/

Rough guesses. Blue ray player is about 50 watts. Yeah, avoid space heaters (1500 watts); they use up nearly all the power on the circuit. Microwaves (1300 watts), laser printers (1000 watts) and blow dryers (1200 watts) are also all single items that can blow a circuit if anything else is being used at the time.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by Mudpuppy »

LiterallyIronic wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pm Sorry, just saw your comment. I tested unplugging the UPS from the wall. Desktop computer loses power and turns off. The UPS is a Rocketfish 825VA. It's this one: https://www.newegg.com/rocketfish-rf-82 ... 6842102305, but I got it at Best Buy instead of Newegg.
How old is the battery? Sometimes, the low-end UPS units don't properly alert when the battery is bad. And that particular model has some pretty bad reviews on multiple sites about it failing to actually provide power during a blackout or brownout, so it may just be time to get an entirely different unit.

APC and Tripp Lite are classic "workhorse" brands for UPS units. A true CyberPower unit is another popular choice. Despite the notice on NewEgg saying your unit is associated with CyberPower, RocketFish is actually a "house brand" for Best Buy and there's no guarantee the units are a relabel of a CyberPower unit. Better to go straight to the source.
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by whomever »

"It all depends on the nature of your electrical panel setup. For example, do you have 20amp circuits or 15amp circuits? If you have 20amp circuits, you won't see as many issues with a large power draw as those with a 15amp circuit. Now, if the OP has a 20amp circuit, but a 15amp outlet on that circuit, moving the printer and UPS to different outlets on the same circuit might help. But moving the printer to a different outlet on the same circuit won't help as much if the OP has a 15amp circuit."

I'm not sure this is correct.

I would expect a 20A circuit to have lower voltage drop for a given current draw because it is wired with 12 gauge wire, as opposed to 14 gauge for a 15A circuit. But I don't think it will matter whether the specific outlet is 15A, 20A, or 15/20A.
sawdust60
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by sawdust60 »

Perhaps there are some sensitivity settings. Here is one of the screens from my older version of the APC Powerchute software. There may be some logs saved/viewable, if you have the software running and the UPS's USB cable connected to your PC. (I have the software installed on an old laptop as I do not care to have it running elsewhere. I mostly use the software to disable the notification beeping.)

Image
LiterallyIronic
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Re: Brother printer 'trips' my battery backups

Post by LiterallyIronic »

inbox788 wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:09 pm
LiterallyIronic wrote: Wed Sep 09, 2020 7:40 pmSorry, just saw your comment. I tested unplugging the UPS from the wall. Desktop computer loses power and turns off. The UPS is a Rocketfish 825VA. It's this one: https://www.newegg.com/rocketfish-rf-82 ... 6842102305, but I got it at Best Buy instead of Newegg.

I'm not sure how to determine the power draw of the devices, though, unless a Google search can tell me. The TV is a 14-year-old JVC 1080p 61" rear projection television. The blu-ray player is a Magnavox NB500MG1F. I would have to think that the desktop computer is going to be one of the biggest power consumers - I built it in 2016: i7 6700k, GTX 1080, 32GB DDR4-3200, 256GB SSD, 3x 2TB HDD, blu-ray drive, along with external 8TB HDD, 5.1 surround sound, two 24" monitors, keyboard, mouse, headset, controller.

But, typically, almost everything is off besides the computer (and the few consoles that have a standby mode).

I do know that I knocked out the TV's power once, by plugging in a space heater when I was watching a movie.
If all you've got is computer and monitors on the UPS, it's unlike to exceed the rated 450 watts. It common for computer power supplies to be rated 550 watts and draw 300 watts while being used. [just noticed the graphics card, so that might add 100-200 watts when it's heavily used -- that might take you over the 450 on startup...] Newer monitors should draw less than 50 watts. I'm guessing the battery in the UPS is dead. If you have an old incandescent lamp with 60 watts or 100 watts bulb, try that on the UPS alone unplugged. Or even a lower powered item that doesn't run tells you the battery has failed and it's basically acting like a power strip only. If the UPS can supply some 100 or 200 watt devices for a while, then the battery may be ok and you're overloading the power it can supply.

Google can help give you an idea. For example, this one draws 215 watts while running, and probably a bit more starting up.
https://www.cnet.com/products/jvc-hd-p6 ... v-full-hd/

Rough guesses. Blue ray player is about 50 watts. Yeah, avoid space heaters (1500 watts); they use up nearly all the power on the circuit. Microwaves (1300 watts), laser printers (1000 watts) and blow dryers (1200 watts) are also all single items that can blow a circuit if anything else is being used at the time.
My desktop's PSU is 850 watts. A Google search tells me that an HP LP2475w takes 75-120 watts and an HP ZR24w takes 85 watts. I unplugged the UPS from the wall and plugged a lamp with a 90 watt incandescent bulb into it. The lights on the front of the UPS stayed red after I unplugged the UPS, so it still had some power in it. When I turned on the lamp, the bulb came on for roughly one second and then it shut off and the UPS went dark. I plugged the lamp into the power strip coming from the same outlet that the UPS is (normally) plugged into and the lamp came back on.

So I think you're right that the battery in the UPS is virtually dead. I'll replace it.
Mudpuppy wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 1:20 am APC and Tripp Lite are classic "workhorse" brands for UPS units. A true CyberPower unit is another popular choice. Despite the notice on NewEgg saying your unit is associated with CyberPower, RocketFish is actually a "house brand" for Best Buy and there's no guarantee the units are a relabel of a CyberPower unit. Better to go straight to the source.
I'll look those up and buy one with good reviews. Thanks.
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