charging an EV

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11141
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by TomatoTomahto »

:annoyed
mnsportsgeek wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:12 am Out of curiosity, can you tell your Tesla at what % to stop charging or do you have to monitor what percentage you're at and go unplug it?
Not only can you tell it to what % to charge, you can specify at what amperage. In the car and on the remote app. I just checked, and the amperage rate can only be set in the car.Image

Photo is from app, too lazy to go to garage. From Inside the car, you can also schedule when you want it to charge (for Time Of Use considerations).
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
Big Dog
Posts: 2022
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Big Dog »

Old Guy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:49 pm One of try main concerns with the Tesla is having to take my eyes off the road to use the touch screen. I know you can do verbal commands but some YouTube reviewers found that it is not always responsive. Tesla owners what has your experience been?
That was my fear before I purchased a model 3, and frankly, I never need to touch the touch screen while driving. My wife, if is technologically-challenged liked my 3 so much, I had to buy one for her. We keep ac/heat on auto, and wipers on auto temp, both of which work great in SoCal.
Big Dog
Posts: 2022
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:12 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Big Dog »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:26 am :annoyed
mnsportsgeek wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:12 am Out of curiosity, can you tell your Tesla at what % to stop charging or do you have to monitor what percentage you're at and go unplug it?
Not only can you tell it to what % to charge, you can specify at what amperage. In the car and on the remote app. I just checked, and the amperage rate can only be set in the car.Image
Photo is from app, too lazy to go to garage.
You can also set stop or stop times (to align with any ToU electricity plans that you might have).
canderson
Posts: 355
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2012 9:12 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by canderson »

esqu1re wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 7:42 pm
canderson wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:21 pm I will buy an EV when in the dead of winter we can drive the 175 miles each way to NYC and back home on a single charge. We often do theater daytrips and I don’t want to stop at 11 pm in February to charge.*

I’d get a RAV4 Prime but a) they’re impossible to find and b) if you do they’re going at a minimum $5k over MSRP and I’m not paying $50k+ for a Toyota.

Our friends have a Model 3 and love it but winter range is a legitimate drawback. It’s likely better now Tesla installed a heat pump for the battery.

* I should say an EV at least as big as the Tesla Model Y. We are a one-car household so a compact SUV is a requirement. Our current RAV4 Hybrid can often get more than 600 miles in a 13.5 gallon of gas.
I think in another 10 years or so, battery tech will get there.
I actually think it’ll be sooner. Solid state battery tech is 2-3 years away according to Toyota. Once that hits, things get interesting quickly.
Normchad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

mnsportsgeek wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:12 am
alexander29 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:47 pm I recently got a long-range (315 mile) Tesla and love it. So far I've only charged at home, and for local trips a charge will easily last a week or more. But you do need to think about where you want to go. The company advises routinely charging the battery only to 90 percent to extend its life, and most of us wouldn't want to go below 10 percent and risk being stranded. So 80 percent of 315 becomes 252, although you CAN charge to 100 percent for the occasional trip. The range will degrade slightly over time. Heat, cold, weight, wet roads, hills, and wind can also trim range: on the worst days your "real world" risk-free range with a normal charge might drop towards 220 miles or so. For most of us that's adequate, and represents three or four hours of nonstop driving, but you need to examine your own needs. It's also easiest to charge at home with a 220 outlet.

I didn't drive my gasoline cars their maximum range either. Nor did they achieve their ideal EPA mpg estimates. For me, the excellent driving characteristics of an EV (you must test drive one!), their quiet, their zero emissions, and the satisfaction of skipping gas stations and oil changes makes the Tesla a joy. Electricity is cheaper for me than gas, so far saving about $100 a month. The car software is constantly being upgraded. And there are either Tesla superchargers or other auto chargers in most places, with more added all the time.
Out of curiosity, can you tell your Tesla at what % to stop charging or do you have to monitor what percentage you're at and go unplug it?

I don't understand why I can't tell my iPhone to stop charging at 80% to prolong battery capacity.
For my Tesla Model 3, yes, you can set the upper charge limit. This can be done in the car, or with your phone.
randomguy
Posts: 9206
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by randomguy »

canderson wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:25 am

I actually think it’ll be sooner. Solid state battery tech is 2-3 years away according to Toyota. Once that hits, things get interesting quickly.
2025 according to toyota. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3343 ... tery-2025/ .

2025 is 4-5 years away form limited production not 2-3. They still have fundamental problems both in the lifespan of their batteries and cost (i.e. nobody wants 30k batteries in their car). Maybe they will get solved in 4-5 years. Maybe they never do. Until a company is willing to commit billions of dollars to building production lines, it is hard to tell how much is reality and how much is hype. For fun go read the articles from the late 90s and early 2000s about all the battery tech that is about to revolutionize the world. The were pretty spot on with lithium ion but if you look at the other half dozen technologies, none of them made it. Samsung estimates are similiar time frames. And most of the rest of the companies are small firms where scaling up to production levels might be hard (i.e. they will need to raise billions of capital and they might not have the expertise even if they have the money) and take much longer than expected.

It gets tough when you are comparing a product that will not ship for 5 years with current ones. The vaporware products always look good. But the fair comparison is 2025 Li-ion with 2025 solid state. Given the trends over the past 20 years, those might be pretty darn close. Obviously a lot of hand waving but I wouldn't be surprised if the next 15 years of batters is a lot like the last 15. Or of course somebody could actually make a breakthrough....

10 years seems like a reasonable guess for the transition point where the default become EVs and you only buy an ICE if you have special needs. But there is a heck of a lot of guess work in those numbers. I wouldn't be shocked to see Europe going predominately EV in more like 5 years and the US trailing off at 15. Their usage patterns and fuel costs incentives much quicker transitions if they can solve the public charging (i.e. less people have garages) issues. That seems pretty doable.
RCL
Posts: 477
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:48 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by RCL »

Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Afty
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Afty »

RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Air conditioning is pretty efficient (unlike heating). Ballpark 5% reduction in efficiency. Here’s a TMC thread on the topic: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... ge.161196/
hunoraut
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Ignore the "range" estimate because it assumes drainage of battery from 100-0%, and EPA-based consumption, both of which are unrealistic.


Long term average consumption is around 310wH/mi, which includes freeway driving with 60mph trip average speed. AC takes about 15-20wH/mi on top of that.

Car has 75kWh net battery capacity. Driver will typically use 55kWh (85% drained to 10%).

This means typical range w/o AC is 180 miles, with AC 170 miles.
ncbill
Posts: 880
Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 4:03 pm
Location: Western NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by ncbill »

randomguy wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 3:13 pm
canderson wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 11:25 am

I actually think it’ll be sooner. Solid state battery tech is 2-3 years away according to Toyota. Once that hits, things get interesting quickly.
2025 according to toyota. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3343 ... tery-2025/ .

2025 is 4-5 years away form limited production not 2-3. They still have fundamental problems both in the lifespan of their batteries and cost (i.e. nobody wants 30k batteries in their car). Maybe they will get solved in 4-5 years. Maybe they never do. Until a company is willing to commit billions of dollars to building production lines, it is hard to tell how much is reality and how much is hype. For fun go read the articles from the late 90s and early 2000s about all the battery tech that is about to revolutionize the world. The were pretty spot on with lithium ion but if you look at the other half dozen technologies, none of them made it. Samsung estimates are similiar time frames. And most of the rest of the companies are small firms where scaling up to production levels might be hard (i.e. they will need to raise billions of capital and they might not have the expertise even if they have the money) and take much longer than expected.

It gets tough when you are comparing a product that will not ship for 5 years with current ones. The vaporware products always look good. But the fair comparison is 2025 Li-ion with 2025 solid state. Given the trends over the past 20 years, those might be pretty darn close. Obviously a lot of hand waving but I wouldn't be surprised if the next 15 years of batters is a lot like the last 15. Or of course somebody could actually make a breakthrough....

10 years seems like a reasonable guess for the transition point where the default become EVs and you only buy an ICE if you have special needs. But there is a heck of a lot of guess work in those numbers. I wouldn't be shocked to see Europe going predominately EV in more like 5 years and the US trailing off at 15. Their usage patterns and fuel costs incentives much quicker transitions if they can solve the public charging (i.e. less people have garages) issues. That seems pretty doable.
One analyst group predicts mainstream adoption requires $100/kWh battery packs...they projected that would happen no earlier than 2030.
marcwd
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: charging an EV

Post by marcwd »

hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:37 am
RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Ignore the "range" estimate because it assumes drainage of battery from 100-0%, and EPA-based consumption, both of which are unrealistic.


Long term average consumption is around 310wH/mi, which includes freeway driving with 60mph trip average speed. AC takes about 15-20wH/mi on top of that.

Car has 75kWh net battery capacity. Driver will typically use 55kWh (85% drained to 10%).

This means typical range w/o AC is 180 miles, with AC 170 miles.
Your 310wH/mi figure seems too high, especially for Arizona driving.

https://ev-database.org/car/1138/Tesla- ... Dual-Motor
Last edited by marcwd on Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Afty
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Afty »

marcwd wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:51 pm
hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:37 am
RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Ignore the "range" estimate because it assumes drainage of battery from 100-0%, and EPA-based consumption, both of which are unrealistic.


Long term average consumption is around 310wH/mi, which includes freeway driving with 60mph trip average speed. AC takes about 15-20wH/mi on top of that.

Car has 75kWh net battery capacity. Driver will typically use 55kWh (85% drained to 10%).

This means typical range w/o AC is 180 miles, with AC 170 miles.
Your 310wH/mi figure seems too low, especially for Arizona driving.

https://ev-database.org/car/1138/Tesla- ... Dual-Motor
+1. My lifetime efficiency (18 months/10k miles) in my LR AWD Model 3 is 253 Wh/mi. Bay Area, CA.
Normchad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

Afty wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 4:21 pm
marcwd wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:51 pm
hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:37 am
RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Ignore the "range" estimate because it assumes drainage of battery from 100-0%, and EPA-based consumption, both of which are unrealistic.


Long term average consumption is around 310wH/mi, which includes freeway driving with 60mph trip average speed. AC takes about 15-20wH/mi on top of that.

Car has 75kWh net battery capacity. Driver will typically use 55kWh (85% drained to 10%).

This means typical range w/o AC is 180 miles, with AC 170 miles.
Your 310wH/mi figure seems too low, especially for Arizona driving.

https://ev-database.org/car/1138/Tesla- ... Dual-Motor
+1. My lifetime efficiency (18 months/10k miles) in my LR AWD Model 3 is 253 Wh/mi. Bay Area, CA.
My lifetime average is 281. Just another data point. And I took the aero wheel covers off, and accelerate briskly at every opportunity. To get the EPA rating, in a model 3, I think you need to be at 241? The majority of my driving is around town vs. freeway.
marcwd
Posts: 353
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 10:15 am
Location: Massachusetts

Re: charging an EV

Post by marcwd »

marcwd wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:51 pm
hunoraut wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 5:37 am
RCL wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 8:49 pm Any of you have realistic mileage range you get in a climate that requires air conditioning for most of the year (like Arizona for example)
How much is the range reduced when using the A/C?
Ignore the "range" estimate because it assumes drainage of battery from 100-0%, and EPA-based consumption, both of which are unrealistic.


Long term average consumption is around 310wH/mi, which includes freeway driving with 60mph trip average speed. AC takes about 15-20wH/mi on top of that.

Car has 75kWh net battery capacity. Driver will typically use 55kWh (85% drained to 10%).

This means typical range w/o AC is 180 miles, with AC 170 miles.
Your 310wH/mi figure seems too high, especially for Arizona driving.

https://ev-database.org/car/1138/Tesla- ... Dual-Motor
Corrected to say, “310wH/mi figure seems too high.”
hunoraut
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

marcwd wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 3:51 pm

Your 310wH/mi figure seems too high, especially for Arizona driving.

https://ev-database.org/car/1138/Tesla- ... Dual-Motor

Mines a performance model with larger 20" wheels, driven in mildly lumpy roads across 4 seasons.

Website quotes "EVDB" but doesnt show what constitutes the Database.

This is crowdsourced by ABRP:

https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.com/b ... -233-cars/

(Their long range is a single-motor)

The other consideration is driving mix. Unlike combustion cars, EVs are more efficient at lower speeds, so it will favor city drivers.
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

mnsportsgeek wrote: Sun Aug 30, 2020 10:12 am I don't understand why I can't tell my iPhone to stop charging at 80% to prolong battery capacity.
Supposedly older Nissan Leafs could do this, and the EPA said well if you are saying it's better to only charge the battery 80%, then you can only quote the range for an 80% charge. Dunno if this is true.
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

ncbill wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:06 pm One analyst group predicts mainstream adoption requires $100/kWh battery packs...they projected that would happen no earlier than 2030.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/30/do ... batteries/
mervinj7
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by mervinj7 »

RustyShackleford wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 11:12 pm
ncbill wrote: Mon Aug 31, 2020 2:06 pm One analyst group predicts mainstream adoption requires $100/kWh battery packs...they projected that would happen no earlier than 2030.
https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/30/do ... batteries/
By the way, I followed your advice and got an inverter and some cabling. Now I've got a mobile 40 kWh battery (size of 3 Tesla Powerwalls) in my driveway ready for the next CA blackout! It's not quite the bidirectional charging for my Nissan Leaf I imagined but it will do in a pinch.

Image

For those wondering what's going on here, I hooked up a 1000W (2000W Peak) Pure Sine Wave Inverter to my Nissan Leaf's 12V battery. When the car is in "ready" mode, the 12V lead-acid battery is charged via a on-board ~1.6kW DC-DC converter from the 40kWh traction battery (the big lithium one). The inverter has standard 120V AC outputs that I can run an extension cord to essential loads. For example, if my fridge uses 1.5kWh/day, I can run it for a week during a blackout with no issues. I can also recharge a deep cycle battery to use indoors with another inverter for a portable setup. Hope to never need it for that long!
Last edited by mervinj7 on Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
MBB_Boy
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by MBB_Boy »

investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:35 am On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
Let's do the math.

A Tesla Model 3 consumes about 280 Wh/mi when driving on the highway and a typical Tesla Supercharger (here in CA) dispenses juice at about $0.32/kWh. It costs just under $0.09/mi in electricity to drive.

Suppose I was driving a BMW 330i instead (a comparable ICE car). The BMW is rated at 36 MPG and we'll use $3.50/gal for the price of premium fuel (here in CA). This means it costs $0.097/mi to drive the BMW.

In other parts of the country where gas is cheaper than CA, the BMW will cost less to drive on the highway than the Tesla, but not by much.

Important note: In "around town" driving, it will cost much less to drive the Tesla, because:
- Off-peak electricity cost at home is way less than a Supercharger, in some cases less than $0.10/kWh
- Tesla consumption is less around town than on the highway (regenerative braking, lower speeds)
- ICE cars like the BMW have much higher fuel consumption (city vs. highway MPG)

TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11141
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by TomatoTomahto »

MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm
Normchad wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 11:35 am On your long distance trips, how was the price of charging compared to gas?
Let's do the math.
A Tesla Model 3 consumes about 280 Wh/mi when driving on the highway and a typical Tesla Supercharger (here in CA) dispenses juice at about $0.32/kWh. It costs just under $0.09/mi in electricity to drive.
Suppose I was driving a BMW 330i instead (a comparable ICE car). The BMW is rated at 36 MPG and we'll use $3.50/gal for the price of premium fuel (here in CA). This means it costs $0.097/mi to drive the BMW.
In other parts of the country where gas is cheaper than CA, the BMW will cost less to drive on the highway than the Tesla, but not by much.
Important note: In "around town" driving, it will cost much less to drive the Tesla, because:
- Off-peak electricity cost at home is way less than a Supercharger, in some cases less than $0.10/kWh
- Tesla consumption is less around town than on the highway (regenerative braking, lower speeds)
- ICE cars like the BMW have much higher fuel consumption (city vs. highway MPG)

TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
And, it’s so much easier to put up solar panels than an oil well and refinery :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

mervinj7 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:28 am For those wondering what's going on here, I hooked up a 1000W (2000W Peak) Pure Sine Wave Inverter to my Nissan Leaf's 12V battery. When the car is in "ready" mode, the 12V lead-acid battery is charged via a on-board ~1.6kW DC-DC converter from the 40kWh traction battery (the big lithium one). The inverter has standard 120V AC outputs that I can run an extension cord to essential loads. For example, if my fridge uses 1.5kWh/day, I can run it for a week during a blackout with no issues.
Congratulations ! What is the green wire running to the negative post on your 12v battery ? Appears not to be the main GND connection to the inverter, which is good, apparently it's essential that the GND connection go to the threaded hole on the side of the engine/DC-DC/charger.

If you want to get fancier, you can install a generator inlet box on your house, wired to a breaker in the main panel which is interlocked with the main breaker (so you don't accidentally backfeed your grid connection and endanger workers, or have the grid attempt to drive your inverter, which who knows what could happen). Note some jurisdictions require a "transfer switch" instead of the interlock, mainly because the interlock doesn't work if the front cover of the main panel is removed; unfortunately a transfer switch is expensive and requires hard-wiring of "essential" loads (with the interlock, you can potentially drive any load in your house from the backup power, assuming there's enough juice for it). I then made a cord with a 120vac male plug on on end to plug into the inverter, and a NEMA L14-30 female on the other end to plug into the generator inlet. The hot from 120vac is connected to BOTH hots on the L14-30, so you can drive loads on either pole of your main panel; 240vac loads see zero volts (since the two hots are in-phase instead of 180-degrees out-of-phase) but of course you wouldn't have enough juice to drive any of your 240vac loads anyhow. Note that this is EXTREMELY non-standard, so don't do it unless you know what you're doing; I did ask about it at stackexchange though, and some pretty knowledgable folk thought it was ok, with the caveat that multi-wire branch circuits (MWBC) could be a problem because a neutral could be carrying return currents from both hots, which are in-phase instead of out-of-phase. Don't do this if you have any MWBCs (or if you don't understand what an MWBC is and why this could be a problem). Finally I did not connect the EGC from the inverter to the panel EGC, because then you have two neutral-ground bonds (a small inverter like that inevitably has a neutral-ground bond) and also the GFCI outlet on the inverter will see that and trip. Again, what I'm discussing here is VERY non-standard. I am an electrical engineer with lots of experience with home wiring. If you have any doubt about any of this, just stick with your extension cords. For a deeper dive: https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions ... 205_172991

A final issue you could run into, even with the extension cords. In my case, one time, the inverter tripped (was overloaded and shut off) even when I drove only the refrigerator. Apparently the fridge went into its auto-defrost cycle, during which it draws far more current (for the little heater that melts ice buildup on the evaporator). I've tried to figure out how to temporarily disable auto-defrost, to no avail. So I've simply moved critical stuff to a chest freezer (which has no such auto-defrost and is incredibly efficient) for the brief outages we've had since I did this; I may attempt to put in a switch to disable the defrost heater, again VERY non-standard stuff.
investor997
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by investor997 »

MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
High speed DC charging locations (like Tesla superchargers) are usually more expensive than the local electric rates. Tesla charges $0.28/kWh (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). Someone has to pay for all that infrastructure...
mervinj7
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by mervinj7 »

RustyShackleford wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:06 pm
mervinj7 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 12:28 am For those wondering what's going on here, I hooked up a 1000W (2000W Peak) Pure Sine Wave Inverter to my Nissan Leaf's 12V battery. When the car is in "ready" mode, the 12V lead-acid battery is charged via a on-board ~1.6kW DC-DC converter from the 40kWh traction battery (the big lithium one). The inverter has standard 120V AC outputs that I can run an extension cord to essential loads. For example, if my fridge uses 1.5kWh/day, I can run it for a week during a blackout with no issues.
Congratulations ! What is the green wire running to the negative post on your 12v battery ? Appears not to be the main GND connection to the inverter, which is good, apparently it's essential that the GND connection go to the threaded hole on the side of the engine/DC-DC/charger.

If you want to get fancier, you can install a generator inlet box on your house, wired to a breaker in the main panel which is interlocked with the main breaker (so you don't accidentally backfeed your grid connection and endanger workers, or have the grid attempt to drive your inverter, which who knows what could happen).
The little green cable is attached directly between the negative terminal of the battery and the chassis ground of the inverter. The main ground of the inverter (thick 4 gauge cable) is connected to the threaded hole on the side of the engine block. Hopefully, that matches the recommendations from the leaf forum thread.

I didn't consider a generator inlet box to the house since I would have to also setup a backup loads panel. For now, I plan on just running an extension cord to the fridge as needed. Hopefully, the inverter can handle the surge current for the defrost cycle! Someone else mentioned that they were able to run their 22.8 cu ft refrigerator successfully with this setup.
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

mervinj7 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 2:52 pm The little green cable is attached directly between the negative terminal of the battery and the chassis ground of the inverter. The main ground of the inverter (thick 4 gauge cable) is connected to the threaded hole on the side of the engine block. Hopefully, that matches the recommendations from the leaf forum thread.
Hmm, I didn't notice that, but that thread is mighty long. Probably not a bad idea.
I didn't consider a generator inlet box to the house since I would have to also setup a backup loads panel.
What I did was interlock the generator breaker (a regular branch-circuit breaker) with the main breaker - no subpanel added. Thus no hard-wired commitment as to which circuits can be driven by backup power.
For now, I plan on just running an extension cord to the fridge as needed. Hopefully, the inverter can handle the surge current for the defrost cycle! Someone else mentioned that they were able to run their 22.8 cu ft refrigerator successfully with this setup.
In theory it should work. All I know is, in testing I'd successfully run my fridge, including compressor starts (and some other stuff like a lighting circuit, and modem/router/phone, and range 120vac circuits so gas burners will work) off my Xantrex 900 watt (2000 watt surge) unit. But one time the inverter kept overloading, and I disconnected everything but the fridge and it still failed. So I dunno - it's a nice 2016 vintage Kitchenaid, runs 100+ watts normally and supposedly about 600watts in defrost. Maybe the other person just got lucky ? It's a bummer, definitely a fly in my proverbial ointment.
MBB_Boy
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by MBB_Boy »

investor997 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:35 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
High speed DC charging locations (like Tesla superchargers) are usually more expensive than the local electric rates. Tesla charges $0.28/kWh (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). Someone has to pay for all that infrastructure...
Yup. I was just pointing out in the example above that you have to change both variables. You can't use a CA electric price vs a Texas gas price, or vice versa.

Using your example, if you want to use the average KWH rate for the US, you would also need to compare against the average premium gas rate in the US - not California.

And thanks for the link. All the locations I've ever used have been the per minute rate of 16 cents, not a KWH rate. The new V3 superchargers are supposed to get 50% range in 12.5 minutes. Call it $2.08 for 13 minutes and 150 miles of range = 0.14 a mile

ETA: So if you want to compare that to a gas car = Assuming 30mpg, you would need 5 gallons of gas. Breakeven point would be $4.16 a gallon before the supercharger is cheaper - definitely not what gas prices are today. I was a little surprised so looked into this more, and apparently supercharger rates got a big price hike last year, something like 30%. Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11141
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by TomatoTomahto »

MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
I’m an early adopter, and short of selling my car, I can’t think of a way to monetize the free supercharging. Iirc, the last time I supercharged was 2 years ago. I’ll probably sell when my CyberTruck arrives :D
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
mervinj7
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by mervinj7 »

RustyShackleford wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:33 pm In theory it should work. All I know is, in testing I'd successfully run my fridge, including compressor starts (and some other stuff like a lighting circuit, and modem/router/phone, and range 120vac circuits so gas burners will work) off my Xantrex 900 watt (2000 watt surge) unit. But one time the inverter kept overloading, and I disconnected everything but the fridge and it still failed. So I dunno - it's a nice 2016 vintage Kitchenaid, runs 100+ watts normally and supposedly about 600watts in defrost. Maybe the other person just got lucky ? It's a bummer, definitely a fly in my proverbial ointment.
Interesting. I'm wondering if the inverter locked you out when it hit its low voltage shutdown (10.5V for the Xantrex SW 1000). After talking to the owner of evextend, I got the AIMS 1000W pure sine inverter which has a slightly lower shutdown voltage of 10.0V. Since the 12V battery in the Leaf is a bit wimpy, during a high current draw (e.g. fridge defrost ramp up), the battery voltage may dip momentarily long enough to trip undervoltage shutdown.
Normchad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am
investor997 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:35 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
High speed DC charging locations (like Tesla superchargers) are usually more expensive than the local electric rates. Tesla charges $0.28/kWh (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). Someone has to pay for all that infrastructure...
Yup. I was just pointing out in the example above that you have to change both variables. You can't use a CA electric price vs a Texas gas price, or vice versa.

Using your example, if you want to use the average KWH rate for the US, you would also need to compare against the average premium gas rate in the US - not California.

And thanks for the link. All the locations I've ever used have been the per minute rate of 16 cents, not a KWH rate. The new V3 superchargers are supposed to get 50% range in 12.5 minutes. Call it $2.08 for 13 minutes and 150 miles of range = 0.14 a mile

ETA: So if you want to compare that to a gas car = Assuming 30mpg, you would need 5 gallons of gas. Breakeven point would be $4.16 a gallon before the supercharger is cheaper - definitely not what gas prices are today. I was a little surprised so looked into this more, and apparently supercharger rates got a big price hike last year, something like 30%. Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
Remember though, for most people, most charging is done at home, at much lower prices. For me, it’s 12 cents a KWH, and that applies to 90+% of all miles I travel. A lot of folks pay a lot less, because their utilities give them a 4 cent rate in the middle of the night or whatever.
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

mervinj7 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:42 pm
RustyShackleford wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:33 pm In theory it should work. All I know is, in testing I'd successfully run my fridge, including compressor starts (and some other stuff like a lighting circuit, and modem/router/phone, and range 120vac circuits so gas burners will work) off my Xantrex 900 watt (2000 watt surge) unit. But one time the inverter kept overloading, and I disconnected everything but the fridge and it still failed. So I dunno - it's a nice 2016 vintage Kitchenaid, runs 100+ watts normally and supposedly about 600watts in defrost. Maybe the other person just got lucky ? It's a bummer, definitely a fly in my proverbial ointment.
Interesting. I'm wondering if the inverter locked you out when it hit its low voltage shutdown (10.5V for the Xantrex SW 1000). After talking to the owner of evextend, I got the AIMS 1000W pure sine inverter which has a slightly lower shutdown voltage of 10.0V. Since the 12V battery in the Leaf is a bit wimpy, during a high current draw (e.g. fridge defrost ramp up), the battery voltage may dip momentarily long enough to trip undervoltage shutdown.
Hmm, interesting thought. Except it's not drawing off the 12v battery really; it's drawing off the DC-to-DC converter (from the big traction battery). If I assume I have 5ft of the 2awg wire I used, that should drop about 100mv at 135 amps (supposedly what DC-to-DC can source). I should find an analog voltmeter and try to look at the inverter's input next time this happens. That was a good idea though, getting an inverter with lower undervltage shutdown.

I got tantalizingly close to disabling auto-defrost on the fridge. In "service test mode" you can turn it off. But it automatically exits STM when you shut the door.
emoore
Posts: 648
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by emoore »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:42 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
I’m an early adopter, and short of selling my car, I can’t think of a way to monetize the free supercharging. Iirc, the last time I supercharged was 2 years ago. I’ll probably sell when my CyberTruck arrives :D
If you don't mind me asking which version did you pre-order? The Cybertruck is high on my list for a new car since the specs seem amazing. I'll be curious to see how well it does in the real world.
User avatar
Marmot
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: charging an EV

Post by Marmot »

flyingaway wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:51 am I read some reports that charging an EV commercially (out of your house) is more expensive than filling gas. In other words, running an EV is more expensive than running a gas car for the same mileages, can someone confirm or disconfirm this?
I can't. We bought a Model X and get free charging at any Tesla charger I read an article about a non Tesla nationwide charging system that is up and running. I'll see if I can find it, it was interesting. Yea Elon beat everyone to the punch for sure. This stopping and charging is a bit different but it is fun. I saw something from volkswagon last year, it was a prototype robot charger that wanders a garage and charges VW's. I really can't believe that someone (&/11, Circle K, Walmart) haven't start putting an infrastructure in. When you are charging, you normally wander in the location.
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
User avatar
Marmot
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: charging an EV

Post by Marmot »

emoore wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:04 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:42 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
I’m an early adopter, and short of selling my car, I can’t think of a way to monetize the free supercharging. Iirc, the last time I supercharged was 2 years ago. I’ll probably sell when my CyberTruck arrives :D
If you don't mind me asking which version did you pre-order? The Cybertruck is high on my list for a new car since the specs seem amazing. I'll be curious to see how well it does in the real world.
Did you see the Jay Leno episode (Jay Leno's Garage) when he and Elon were driving the cybertruck? Short, but fun to watch.
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
User avatar
Marmot
Posts: 396
Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2010 1:44 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: charging an EV

Post by Marmot »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:42 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
I’m an early adopter, and short of selling my car, I can’t think of a way to monetize the free supercharging. Iirc, the last time I supercharged was 2 years ago. I’ll probably sell when my CyberTruck arrives :D
Amazon is buying 100,000 of these:
https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/298 ... -to-date-0
Of course they are an investor
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 11141
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by TomatoTomahto »

emoore wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:04 pm
TomatoTomahto wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:42 am
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
I’m an early adopter, and short of selling my car, I can’t think of a way to monetize the free supercharging. Iirc, the last time I supercharged was 2 years ago. I’ll probably sell when my CyberTruck arrives :D
If you don't mind me asking which version did you pre-order? The Cybertruck is high on my list for a new car since the specs seem amazing. I'll be curious to see how well it does in the real world.
I went for the tri-motor; not that I need it, but I’m sure it will be the first one delivered, and since I’m almost 70 years old, time’s awasting :D

I think I might also be less fussy about rough edges. My Model X was VIN 0002xx, and I didn’t get stressed about a few imperfections (which Tesla took care of). I think if someone “splurged” on a CyberTruck, they’d be less understanding.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
azanon
Posts: 2949
Joined: Mon Nov 07, 2011 10:34 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by azanon »

I had no idea gassing up a regular non-EV car was such a struggle and hassle for so many people until I read this thread. Claims of it being harder to find a gas station than an EV one, it taking over 20 minutes to stop at a gas station, gas costs (especially now!) etc....

I don't drive much myself, but when I need a fill-up once every couple of weeks or so, I just whip into a gas station, insert my credit card, fill it up (not even bothering to look at the cost given how cheap gas is) setting it on lock waiting to hear the click, and then pull out and leave. I haven't stop-watched myself, but surely it's in the 5-7 minutes-ish range, from beginning to end. There's no need to look at some fancy map to find somewhere to get gas because even in rural Arkansas, you're going to pass a gas station at least every 30 minutes or so.

And certainly, anyone that can afford any Tesla, model 3 included, should not be financially challenged by the cost of 87 octane gas.
investor997
Posts: 573
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:23 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by investor997 »

The bottom line is this:

For in-town usage, EVs win because:
- Charge at home overnight at off-peak electric rates. Super cheap.
- Convenience of never going to a gas station
- Regenerative braking boosts/increases EV efficiency
- most ICE cars get poorer fuel economy in the city

For road trip usage, ICE wins because:
- ICE vehicle MPG is almost always higher on the highway
- ICE vehicle range is probably 2X that of an EV (see comment re: highway MPG)
- Gas stations are way more abundant than fast EV charging locations, at least for now
- EV battery usage is greater on the highway (higher speeds, aero drag, no regenerative braking)
- Fast DC charging locations typically "charge" 2X or more for juice compared to residential off-peak rates
- Fast DC charging is still a lot slower than pumping gas (in terms of added miles of range per hour)

For most folks, myself included, EVs are better because I'm in town way more than I'm on the road. For others who spend a lot of time road tripping, ICE is probably a better choice.

Disclaimer: I've owned a Tesla Model 3 for a little under 2 years. Here's my original thread:
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=260839
flyingaway
Posts: 2973
Joined: Fri Jan 17, 2014 10:19 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by flyingaway »

Marmot wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:22 pm
flyingaway wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:51 am I read some reports that charging an EV commercially (out of your house) is more expensive than filling gas. In other words, running an EV is more expensive than running a gas car for the same mileages, can someone confirm or disconfirm this?
I can't. We bought a Model X and get free charging at any Tesla charger I read an article about a non Tesla nationwide charging system that is up and running. I'll see if I can find it, it was interesting. Yea Elon beat everyone to the punch for sure. This stopping and charging is a bit different but it is fun. I saw something from volkswagon last year, it was a prototype robot charger that wanders a garage and charges VW's. I really can't believe that someone (&/11, Circle K, Walmart) haven't start putting an infrastructure in. When you are charging, you normally wander in the location.
I was reading that Tesla already built the charging cost in the selling price.

My next car will probably be a gas or hybrid car. After that, it is likely to be a driverless car.
randomguy
Posts: 9206
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by randomguy »

Marmot wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:22 pm
flyingaway wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 7:51 am I read some reports that charging an EV commercially (out of your house) is more expensive than filling gas. In other words, running an EV is more expensive than running a gas car for the same mileages, can someone confirm or disconfirm this?
I can't. We bought a Model X and get free charging at any Tesla charger I read an article about a non Tesla nationwide charging system that is up and running. I'll see if I can find it, it was interesting. Yea Elon beat everyone to the punch for sure. This stopping and charging is a bit different but it is fun. I saw something from volkswagon last year, it was a prototype robot charger that wanders a garage and charges VW's. I really can't believe that someone (&/11, Circle K, Walmart) haven't start putting an infrastructure in. When you are charging, you normally wander in the location.
Tesla charges .28/kwh with a rating of 29kwh/100 miles on the model 3 or 8.12/100 miles. Depending on what you are driving that could be more expensive or cheaper. Other charging networks tend to be more expensive with a lot of them pushing .60 kwh.
hunoraut
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun May 31, 2020 11:39 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

azanon wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 1:38 pm I had no idea gassing up a regular non-EV car was such a struggle and hassle for so many people until I read this thread. Claims of it being harder to find a gas station than an EV one, it taking over 20 minutes to stop at a gas station, gas costs (especially now!) etc....

Someone wrote that they accidentally ran out of gas before, because apparently it was such a chore/burden/cognitively complex to monitor the fuel gauge.
MBB_Boy
Posts: 195
Joined: Sat May 12, 2018 4:09 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by MBB_Boy »

Normchad wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:51 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am
investor997 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:35 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
High speed DC charging locations (like Tesla superchargers) are usually more expensive than the local electric rates. Tesla charges $0.28/kWh (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). Someone has to pay for all that infrastructure...
Yup. I was just pointing out in the example above that you have to change both variables. You can't use a CA electric price vs a Texas gas price, or vice versa.

Using your example, if you want to use the average KWH rate for the US, you would also need to compare against the average premium gas rate in the US - not California.

And thanks for the link. All the locations I've ever used have been the per minute rate of 16 cents, not a KWH rate. The new V3 superchargers are supposed to get 50% range in 12.5 minutes. Call it $2.08 for 13 minutes and 150 miles of range = 0.14 a mile

ETA: So if you want to compare that to a gas car = Assuming 30mpg, you would need 5 gallons of gas. Breakeven point would be $4.16 a gallon before the supercharger is cheaper - definitely not what gas prices are today. I was a little surprised so looked into this more, and apparently supercharger rates got a big price hike last year, something like 30%. Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
Remember though, for most people, most charging is done at home, at much lower prices. For me, it’s 12 cents a KWH, and that applies to 90+% of all miles I travel. A lot of folks pay a lot less, because their utilities give them a 4 cent rate in the middle of the night or whatever.
Yup. And I pay under 7 cents on average for my Model 3. The debate was costs for a roadtrip, which is probably lost context. I don't think anyone would argue that it's more expensive to use gasoline than electricity overall
BamaGuy22
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:22 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by BamaGuy22 »

randomguy wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:38 am
That is the EV fantasy. Reality so far hasn't matched up to it. Go look at any of the maintenance logs for the 200k+ mile Teslas and you will not find a single one that is on the original drive train. Most of them are on 3 or 4.
Yeah I'm gonna need to see these maintenance logs you're talking about. You're telling us "most" Tesla owners are replacing their drive trains every 50-70K miles? I highly doubt it. I own a Tesla and follow that stuff pretty closely. i haven't seen any reports of drive trains being regularly replaced by most owners, but I'm happy to be educated if you know of any actual data.
BamaGuy22
Posts: 15
Joined: Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:22 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by BamaGuy22 »

Normchad wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:51 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 8:27 am
investor997 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 1:35 pm
MBB_Boy wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 9:19 am
investor997 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 12:17 pm TL;DR: It costs about the same to drive a Tesla on a road trip as it does a comparable ICE car
But don't forget, electricity is WAY cheaper in other parts of the country, just like gas. Texas is like .11 per kwh as an example. It's not certain that the BMW wins in parts of the country where gas is cheaper - have to change both variables, not just one
High speed DC charging locations (like Tesla superchargers) are usually more expensive than the local electric rates. Tesla charges $0.28/kWh (https://www.tesla.com/support/supercharging). Someone has to pay for all that infrastructure...
Yup. I was just pointing out in the example above that you have to change both variables. You can't use a CA electric price vs a Texas gas price, or vice versa.

Using your example, if you want to use the average KWH rate for the US, you would also need to compare against the average premium gas rate in the US - not California.

And thanks for the link. All the locations I've ever used have been the per minute rate of 16 cents, not a KWH rate. The new V3 superchargers are supposed to get 50% range in 12.5 minutes. Call it $2.08 for 13 minutes and 150 miles of range = 0.14 a mile

ETA: So if you want to compare that to a gas car = Assuming 30mpg, you would need 5 gallons of gas. Breakeven point would be $4.16 a gallon before the supercharger is cheaper - definitely not what gas prices are today. I was a little surprised so looked into this more, and apparently supercharger rates got a big price hike last year, something like 30%. Those early adopters who got free supercharging for life are probably even happier
Remember though, for most people, most charging is done at home, at much lower prices. For me, it’s 12 cents a KWH, and that applies to 90+% of all miles I travel. A lot of folks pay a lot less, because their utilities give them a 4 cent rate in the middle of the night or whatever.
Exactly. Most people use superchargers only very occasionally. Break even for me on gas prices would be about 50 cents a gallon since almost all my charging is done at home, at night, with a very low EV rate I get from the power company
crefwatch
Posts: 675
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 1:07 pm
Location: New Jersey, USA

Re: charging an EV

Post by crefwatch »

It's not my personal experience, but the drivers of my airport car service swear by Teslas on an economic basis. They have replaced many engines on ICE Lincoln Town Cars, but like the idea of a car that will run 250,000 miles and more with no engine or transmission work. Since (for them, that is) this happens over only a few years, the battery can be a non-issue. They love Teslas. The glamour for customers is a side benefit.
Normchad
Posts: 1324
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

BamaGuy22 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:06 am
randomguy wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:38 am
That is the EV fantasy. Reality so far hasn't matched up to it. Go look at any of the maintenance logs for the 200k+ mile Teslas and you will not find a single one that is on the original drive train. Most of them are on 3 or 4.
Yeah I'm gonna need to see these maintenance logs you're talking about. You're telling us "most" Tesla owners are replacing their drive trains every 50-70K miles? I highly doubt it. I own a Tesla and follow that stuff pretty closely. i haven't seen any reports of drive trains being regularly replaced by most owners, but I'm happy to be educated if you know of any actual data.
The data shows that the Tesla power trains to date have been extremely reliable. There is a company called Tesloop that runs a taxi like service between LA and Vegas. They have many Teslas, most over 300,000 miles, some nearly at 500,000 miles. This is a quote from the owner.

When we first started our company, we predicted the drivetrain would practically last forever,” Tesloop founder Haydn Sonnad told Quartz. “That’s proven to be relatively true.” Except for one vehicle that was totaled in a collision, every Tesla the company has bought is still running - not one has succumbed to old age.
mervinj7
Posts: 1542
Joined: Thu Mar 27, 2014 3:10 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by mervinj7 »

RustyShackleford wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:54 pm
mervinj7 wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:42 pm
RustyShackleford wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 11:33 pm In theory it should work. All I know is, in testing I'd successfully run my fridge, including compressor starts (and some other stuff like a lighting circuit, and modem/router/phone, and range 120vac circuits so gas burners will work) off my Xantrex 900 watt (2000 watt surge) unit. But one time the inverter kept overloading, and I disconnected everything but the fridge and it still failed. So I dunno - it's a nice 2016 vintage Kitchenaid, runs 100+ watts normally and supposedly about 600watts in defrost. Maybe the other person just got lucky ? It's a bummer, definitely a fly in my proverbial ointment.
Interesting. I'm wondering if the inverter locked you out when it hit its low voltage shutdown (10.5V for the Xantrex SW 1000). After talking to the owner of evextend, I got the AIMS 1000W pure sine inverter which has a slightly lower shutdown voltage of 10.0V. Since the 12V battery in the Leaf is a bit wimpy, during a high current draw (e.g. fridge defrost ramp up), the battery voltage may dip momentarily long enough to trip undervoltage shutdown.
Hmm, interesting thought. Except it's not drawing off the 12v battery really; it's drawing off the DC-to-DC converter (from the big traction battery). If I assume I have 5ft of the 2awg wire I used, that should drop about 100mv at 135 amps (supposedly what DC-to-DC can source). I should find an analog voltmeter and try to look at the inverter's input next time this happens. That was a good idea though, getting an inverter with lower undervltage shutdown.

I got tantalizingly close to disabling auto-defrost on the fridge. In "service test mode" you can turn it off. But it automatically exits STM when you shut the door.
Although the steady state drop on the wire can be 100mV at 135 Amps, the transient droop can be on the order of a few V's. It takes a finite amount of time for the DC-DC converter to react to fast changes in current (di/dt), especially on a large inductive loop (delV=L*di/dt). The initial in-rush current spike is first provided by the 12V battery before it is supplied by the traction battery via it's DC-DC converter. Thus, it may be possible that the DC input rails to the inverter briefly drops below 10.5V. An analog multimeter may not catch a transient droop if it too short of a duration (100ms). If one had an oscilloscope and a current shunt, that could be a great measurement to make!
bagle
Posts: 93
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2011 5:59 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by bagle »

Katietsu wrote: Sun Aug 23, 2020 11:37 pm
Whether EV is less polluting than ICE depends partially on how your electric is produced.
We charge our Tesla with certified 100% renewable energy, so we have a pretty good idea as to how much overall pollution we're creating.
Afty
Posts: 1412
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:31 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Afty »

Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:06 am
BamaGuy22 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:06 am
randomguy wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:38 am
That is the EV fantasy. Reality so far hasn't matched up to it. Go look at any of the maintenance logs for the 200k+ mile Teslas and you will not find a single one that is on the original drive train. Most of them are on 3 or 4.
Yeah I'm gonna need to see these maintenance logs you're talking about. You're telling us "most" Tesla owners are replacing their drive trains every 50-70K miles? I highly doubt it. I own a Tesla and follow that stuff pretty closely. i haven't seen any reports of drive trains being regularly replaced by most owners, but I'm happy to be educated if you know of any actual data.
The data shows that the Tesla power trains to date have been extremely reliable. There is a company called Tesloop that runs a taxi like service between LA and Vegas. They have many Teslas, most over 300,000 miles, some nearly at 500,000 miles. This is a quote from the owner.

When we first started our company, we predicted the drivetrain would practically last forever,” Tesloop founder Haydn Sonnad told Quartz. “That’s proven to be relatively true.” Except for one vehicle that was totaled in a collision, every Tesla the company has bought is still running - not one has succumbed to old age.
Here's more info on Tesloop's high-mileage (3-400k mile) Teslas: https://www.tesloop.com/blog/2019/2/6/t ... age-teslas

Here's an interesting quote from one of the articles: "Since the Model S was launched Tesloop has incurred a combined maintenance cost of roughly $19,000 or about $0.05/mile. This cost breaks down to $6,700 for general vehicle repairs and $12,200 for regularly scheduled maintenance. The Model S’ full service record is available here. The record includes comparable estimated costs of running the service with a Lincoln Town Car instead of a Model S or Mercedes GLS class instead of a Model X. Tesloop estimates that a Lincoln Town Car or Mercedes GLS class’ combined maintenance cost to be around $88,500 ($0.22/mile) and $98,900 ($0.25/mile) respectively over 400,000 miles."
randomguy
Posts: 9206
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 9:00 am

Re: charging an EV

Post by randomguy »

Normchad wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:06 am
BamaGuy22 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:06 am
randomguy wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:38 am
That is the EV fantasy. Reality so far hasn't matched up to it. Go look at any of the maintenance logs for the 200k+ mile Teslas and you will not find a single one that is on the original drive train. Most of them are on 3 or 4.
Yeah I'm gonna need to see these maintenance logs you're talking about. You're telling us "most" Tesla owners are replacing their drive trains every 50-70K miles? I highly doubt it. I own a Tesla and follow that stuff pretty closely. i haven't seen any reports of drive trains being regularly replaced by most owners, but I'm happy to be educated if you know of any actual data.
The data shows that the Tesla power trains to date have been extremely reliable. There is a company called Tesloop that runs a taxi like service between LA and Vegas. They have many Teslas, most over 300,000 miles, some nearly at 500,000 miles. This is a quote from the owner.

When we first started our company, we predicted the drivetrain would practically last forever,” Tesloop founder Haydn Sonnad told Quartz. “That’s proven to be relatively true.” Except for one vehicle that was totaled in a collision, every Tesla the company has bought is still running - not one has succumbed to old age.
Is that the same teslaloop that had to replace a drive train at 36k miles? If you bought a gas powered car that needed an engine replacement at 36k would you say that it is "Extremely" reliable?

The teslaloop guy definitely found a great use where between the free charging, battery replacement, and drive train warranty, he was able to drive operating costs way down. You can go through his list and go man that isn't bad for 400k or you can go man that is a 4 year old car and look at all the crap he had to replace.
User avatar
Will do good
Posts: 1024
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:23 pm

Re: charging an EV

Post by Will do good »

In Illinois ComEd charges us 15.6¢ kWH, have anyone tried their Hourly Pricing Program and was it worth it?
Since we got the Tesla recently, I wonder would charging off hours with HPP will save us some money?
User avatar
RustyShackleford
Posts: 1494
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: NC

Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

mervinj7 wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 11:28 am
RustyShackleford wrote: Wed Sep 02, 2020 12:54 pm I got tantalizingly close to disabling auto-defrost on the fridge. In "service test mode" you can turn it off. But it automatically exits STM when you shut the door.
Although the steady state drop on the wire can be 100mV at 135 Amps, the transient droop can be on the order of a few V's. It takes a finite amount of time for the DC-DC converter to react to fast changes in current (di/dt), especially on a large inductive loop (delV=L*di/dt). The initial in-rush current spike is first provided by the 12V battery before it is supplied by the traction battery via it's DC-DC converter. Thus, it may be possible that the DC input rails to the inverter briefly drops below 10.5V. An analog multimeter may not catch a transient droop if it too short of a duration (100ms). If one had an oscilloscope and a current shunt, that could be a great measurement to make!
Maybe I should install a honking big capacitor on the DC inputs to the inverter !
Post Reply