charging an EV

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hightower
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hightower »

Uniballer wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:12 pm My concern about an electric vehicle is different.

In November 2000 I was trapped on a major limited access highway during a surprise afternoon snow storm, less than 20 miles from my home in Western New York. A tractor-trailer had jack-knifed ahead of me and closed the road until it could be removed. By the time the truck was removed there was about 2 feet of snow on the road. There were hundreds (thousands?) of other people in the same boat. We got rolling at around 11AM the next morning.

I had 1/4 tank of gas when I left home. I ran the engine for about 15 minutes every hour to stay warm. I still had enough gas to make it off the highway and find a gas station. Will an electric vehicle in this circumstance be able to keep the passengers warm all night, and still have usable range? If not, then I would say that they are not real-world ready.
This is a ridiculous way to judge whether an electric car is "real world ready" I've been driving cars for 23 years of my life and I've never found myself in an extreme situation like this. Yes, it could theoretically happen, but to write of a new technology just because of fear of this specific, rare event is silly.
BUT, the answer to your question can be calculated if you know the state of the battery/how many KWH the battery has left and how many kw your heating system uses when running. My BMW i3 uses a heat pump for heating the car, which is very efficient. Same with the new Tesla Model Y. If only using it to keep the car above freezing temps and with 25% charge, I'm confident it could easily accomplish what you describe if necessary. In fact, I'm sure someone smarter than me could calculate exactly how many hours the car could run the heater as you describe. And it would be a more precise calculation than possible with an ICE.
stoptothink
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Re: charging an EV

Post by stoptothink »

squirm wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:38 am
dsmclone wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 10:02 am
BuckyBadger wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 6:48 pm It's remarkable the lengths people will go to troll against EVs. Every straw man argument in the world.
It really happens both ways. Just like anything else, there are positives/negatives on both sides. These positives/negatives have different degrees of importance for each person/family. At this point in time, EV's have become a lot stronger option and probably will continue to become a stronger option in the future. 5 years ago, the choices were very limited and for most people and EV didn't make sense. Maybe in 5 years from now it will be completely backwards and ICE vehicles will make very little sense for the average consumer.

It does go both ways. I love ev's but the EV fanbois are too much at times. I just love their lines... "you have to go out of your way to get gas, it takes at least twenty minutes fill, you're forced to breath gas fumes, gas spills everywhere, etc etc."
...but having to refuel every 250 miles, for extended periods of time, is a plus (because you have to stop and smell the roses) when it is an EV. And you are putting yourself in physical danger stopping at a gas station, but somehow not at an EV charging station. Oh, fanbois (on both sides).
mervinj7
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mervinj7 »

Uniballer wrote: Mon Aug 24, 2020 1:12 pm I had 1/4 tank of gas when I left home. I ran the engine for about 15 minutes every hour to stay warm. I still had enough gas to make it off the highway and find a gas station. Will an electric vehicle in this circumstance be able to keep the passengers warm all night, and still have usable range? If not, then I would say that they are not real-world ready.
hightower wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:42 am This is a ridiculous way to judge whether an electric car is "real world ready" I've been driving cars for 23 years of my life and I've never found myself in an extreme situation like this. Yes, it could theoretically happen, but to write of a new technology just because of fear of this specific, rare event is silly.
BUT, the answer to your question can be calculated if you know the state of the battery/how many KWH the battery has left and how many kw your heating system uses when running. My BMW i3 uses a heat pump for heating the car, which is very efficient. Same with the new Tesla Model Y. If only using it to keep the car above freezing temps and with 25% charge, I'm confident it could easily accomplish what you describe if necessary. In fact, I'm sure someone smarter than me could calculate exactly how many hours the car could run the heater as you describe. And it would be a more precise calculation than possible with an ICE.
Oddly enough, someone did run an experiment preconditioning their BMW i3 in -15C (0F) weather. It took about 3kWh of energy to get the car from 5F to 59F (30 minutes). In Uniballer's scenario, let's assume he runs it every 15 minutes for 1 hour. That would equate to 1.5kWh used every hour. A small 40kWH battery should then last about 28 hours in this extreme scenario. Of course, a Model Y with a 75kWh battery or a Model S with a 100kWh would last much longer. Uniballer, if you ever do get an EV, I would suggest getting one with at least a 100kWh battery in case you find yourself stranded for 2.7 days in 0F weather.

https://bmwi3owner.com/2016/01/preconditioning/
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:18 am Prius you do this every 7-8 years. It has not been an issue.

The drivetrain is so much simpler with an EV, electricity is cheaper, the engine is 3x as efficient (say 25% for an ICE v 90% for an EV). Any cost for replacing the battery in 7-8 years time is still going to leave EV cheaper to run. Obsolescence will be the problem with current generation of EVs, rather than that they have not lasted physically.
Now under warranty:
https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-ext ... -vehicles/
10 years from date of first use/150,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Out of warranty is $3K-$8K. It's not an issue because Toyota doesn't hide pricing, allows for replacement, and is upfront about it.

https://interestingengineering.com/tesl ... -5000-7000
Model 3 has 4 modules.

Hybrid price + $3K-$8K every 10 years.
vs
EV price + $20K-$28K every 10 years?

A boglehead should look at the TCO for long term holding. Government should regulate EV battery replacement to make sure it is available, specs open, and third parties can make them without any roadblocks. Like I said earlier, I know an EV motor will last longer; my issue is with the battery replacement to match that longevity.
DoubleR
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Re: charging an EV

Post by DoubleR »

You have all these countries in the world with hardly any regulations about what they omit to the atmosphere and people having to wear masks in the streets in some of those places the pollution is so bad, but a few Tesla's will make all the difference..👌
chrisam314
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Re: charging an EV

Post by chrisam314 »

Can someone who owns/has owned a Tesla speak to the experience of getting repairs done. Fender bender or otherwise.
Afty
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Afty »

chrisam314 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:20 pm Can someone who owns/has owned a Tesla speak to the experience of getting repairs done. Fender bender or otherwise.
I have a Model 3 and had a minor issue that required service — a rattle in the rear passenger side door. My experience was good. I made an appointment through the app, showed up at the service center, explained my issue, and took the service advisor for a ride to demonstrate the issue. He diagnosed it as a broken clip inside the door. They gave me Uber credits so I could get to work, then texted me when the car was ready about 6 hours later.

Overall very smooth. Limited human interaction — communication was primarily through text. I prefer that, but others might want to talk to a human before arriving at the service center.
investor997
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Re: charging an EV

Post by investor997 »

chrisam314 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:20 pm Can someone who owns/has owned a Tesla speak to the experience of getting repairs done. Fender bender or otherwise.
I had a minor issue with a power window not long after buying my Model 3; it needed an adjustment to correct an issue with it rolling back up whenever the auto-down function was used (the motor would strain near the bottom of travel and it thought it was obstructed). I made an appointment through the app and they dispatched a mobile service technician to my house. Issue was taken care of in about an hour and I never left home.
1130Super
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Re: charging an EV

Post by 1130Super »

squirm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:18 pm That's why people buy Tesla's. Tesla has charging figured out.
Yeah their third V3 Chargers That are Rolling out will charge 75 miles of range in five minutes
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RustyShackleford
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Re: charging an EV

Post by RustyShackleford »

BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm Plug in hybrids and regular hybrids are certainly excellent for fuel conservation, but they do lack one of the best aspects of having a true EV. The lack of maintenance and the longevity.
Bingo. That was the very pleasant surprise of EV ownership, for me, the almost complete lack of maintenance requirements.
An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000 ...
Yes, and a hybrid is even more complex than an ICE.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

DoubleR wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 8:46 pm You have all these countries in the world with hardly any regulations about what they omit to the atmosphere and people having to wear masks in the streets in some of those places the pollution is so bad, but a few Tesla's will make all the difference..👌
India is a problem. They have the worst urban air pollution in the world. But remember when Delhi changed *all* TukTuk (3 wheel scooters, delivery vehicles, minicabs) motors to clean burn natural gas overnight? They said it couldn't be done but it was, and enforced.

China air pollution is one of the things the Party allows public comment on. They know they have a credibility & Legitimacy problem re air pollution.

China is actually moving as fast on EVs as Europe. This is the world's largest car market.

There are other countries. It depends a lot on infrastructure. But Nigeria is not yet a huge car market.

The world knows it has to go there. So we will. Not as fast as we need to, but it will happen.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

ballons wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 5:34 pm
Valuethinker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:18 am Prius you do this every 7-8 years. It has not been an issue.

The drivetrain is so much simpler with an EV, electricity is cheaper, the engine is 3x as efficient (say 25% for an ICE v 90% for an EV). Any cost for replacing the battery in 7-8 years time is still going to leave EV cheaper to run. Obsolescence will be the problem with current generation of EVs, rather than that they have not lasted physically.
Now under warranty:
https://pressroom.toyota.com/toyota-ext ... -vehicles/
10 years from date of first use/150,000 miles, whichever comes first.

Out of warranty is $3K-$8K. It's not an issue because Toyota doesn't hide pricing, allows for replacement, and is upfront about it.

https://interestingengineering.com/tesl ... -5000-7000
Model 3 has 4 modules.

Hybrid price + $3K-$8K every 10 years.
vs
EV price + $20K-$28K every 10 years?

A boglehead should look at the TCO for long term holding. Government should regulate EV battery replacement to make sure it is available, specs open, and third parties can make them without any roadblocks. Like I said earlier, I know an EV motor will last longer; my issue is with the battery replacement to match that longevity.
Thank you that is interesting.

TCO estimates show similar costs of owning right now. Higher upfront costs for EVs however have distributional implications. What will the lower income groups (that own cars) drive?

European gasoline prices are far higher than American. So the tilt towards EVs is easier.
1130Super
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Re: charging an EV

Post by 1130Super »

emoore wrote: Tue Aug 25, 2020 4:18 pm Lots of EV misconceptions here.

Like mentioned earlier Tesla has by far the best charging network in the US right now. That will probably get challenged in the next 5 years with electrify america and some oil companies getting into the charging station market to offset losses from oil.

As for stopping for 20 plus minutes to fully charge, you have to change your driving habit. Instead of driving to empty and the fill up 100% like ICE, you would drive to 10-20% and charge up to 80% which is the fastest. Getting from 80 to 100% takes a long time. So assuming you stop every 3-4 hours, that's ~250 miles, then stopping for 20 minutes probably is a good idea anyway (bathroom breaks, food, stretch, etc). There are some (very few) that want to be able to fill up and go in 5 minutes and then drive another 300 miles. That's an extreme case that you can't really do right now with an EV but there will be 500+ mile EVs in a few years time.

Overall I would say just get an EV and not worry about it. Like said earlier, if necessary rent an ICE and use that until the charging network matures. And your EV will have less and less of an environmental impact as the grid gets cleaner, ICE environment impacts are fixed for the life of the car.
+1 and battery degradation at least in a Tesla is less than 10% for 300k miles nowadays with proper battery care (They recommend staying between 20% and 80% charge for daily use and only charging up to 100% before a trip).
esqu1re
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Re: charging an EV

Post by esqu1re »

Plug-in Hybrids are an excellent gateway if you're worried about long charging times. The Chevy Volt is excellent and is discontinued, but there are many used and new options out there, including the RAV4 Prime. I have a 2 year old Volt that I bought new, put 23k electric / 6k gasoline miles on it, and have not seen any battery degradation. Used Volts are a great value. Dual "fuel" also means you have some redundancy if one of the "fuel" types gets knocked out (e.g., natural disaster knocks out electric production) or becomes very pricey for some reason.
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

1130Super wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 12:20 am
squirm wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:18 pm That's why people buy Tesla's. Tesla has charging figured out.
Yeah their third V3 Chargers That are Rolling out will charge 75 miles of range in five minutes
This just blows away ev's like the bolt, leaf, etc where charging is a whole 50kw.
angelescrest
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Re: charging an EV

Post by angelescrest »

Slacker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 am We have a Toyota PHEV we purchased 3 years ago.

We often just keep 1/4 to 1/2 a tank of gas, because we find that we don't actually use the gas engine that often at all. We've gone as much as 6 months on a 1/4 tank of gas and have realized that having the 500 miles of range capability is extremely rarely used by us (one time last year I had to drive to my main office in another state).

So far, our "long trips" to the mountains or beaches could have easily been handled by a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range with maybe a 10 minute top up on the way back. We'll have no problem switching over to fully electric with our next vehicle in 6-9 years.

A PHEV really opened our eyes up to the viability of owning a full EV.
Interested in learning more about PHEVs, Toyota in particular. How does one approach maintenance, say like oil change, considering the miles you drive are mostly electric and not ICE? I like the new RAV4 Prime, but way way too much :moneybag for me. Maybe a used Prius prime, though I’d prefer a larger car like Camry.
Ryzen
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Ryzen »

angelescrest wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 8:39 am
Slacker wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:02 am We have a Toyota PHEV we purchased 3 years ago.

We often just keep 1/4 to 1/2 a tank of gas, because we find that we don't actually use the gas engine that often at all. We've gone as much as 6 months on a 1/4 tank of gas and have realized that having the 500 miles of range capability is extremely rarely used by us (one time last year I had to drive to my main office in another state).

So far, our "long trips" to the mountains or beaches could have easily been handled by a Tesla Model 3 Standard Range with maybe a 10 minute top up on the way back. We'll have no problem switching over to fully electric with our next vehicle in 6-9 years.

A PHEV really opened our eyes up to the viability of owning a full EV.
Interested in learning more about PHEVs, Toyota in particular. How does one approach maintenance, say like oil change, considering the miles you drive are mostly electric and not ICE? I like the new RAV4 Prime, but way way too much :moneybag for me. Maybe a used Prius prime, though I’d prefer a larger car like Camry.
At least in Ford land, fuel tank is pressurized so the fuel lasts longer and oil changes are recommended after 1 year if you don't hit the engine mileage/runtime before a year is up. I love driving a hybrid, I haven't seen any of the maintenance issues people upstream mentioned. They run the engine consistently at wide-open throttle which is better for the engine (and much more efficient since it reduces pumping losses) than a traditional ICE powered car. And it cuts out a lot of the maintenance - no belts, AC compressor is electric, power steering is electric, brake booster is electric instead of vaccum.
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

Forgot to plug it in again last night. At least I'll be working from home today so not an issue.
cusetownusa
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Re: charging an EV

Post by cusetownusa »

squirm wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:15 am Forgot to plug it in again last night. At least I'll be working from home today so not an issue.
Do you need to plug in every night? What kind of EV do you have and how many miles do you drive everyday?
ncbill
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ncbill »

RustyShackleford wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:44 am
BuckyBadger wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 7:05 pm Plug in hybrids and regular hybrids are certainly excellent for fuel conservation, but they do lack one of the best aspects of having a true EV. The lack of maintenance and the longevity.
Bingo. That was the very pleasant surprise of EV ownership, for me, the almost complete lack of maintenance requirements.
An electric engine had about 20 moving parts. An ICE engine has about 2,000 ...
Yes, and a hybrid is even more complex than an ICE.
Toyota's hybrid synergy drive (HSD) is arguably less complex than the traditional automatic geared transmission, alternator, and starter motor that it replaces...at its heart it's just two (AC) electric motors.

And replacement hybrid batteries are affordable...e.g. ~$2,500 for Toyota hybrids (Prius models closer to $1,500) for a refurbished battery pack, installed, e.g. https://greenbeanbattery.com.

Right now there's no firm information on what Tesla battery packs (and the drive unit) will cost out-of-warranty.

Though as another poster calculates the cost of a replacement battery alone could be an order of magnitude greater than the above.
Last edited by ncbill on Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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wander
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Re: charging an EV

Post by wander »

This topic is interesting. All my 30 years of driving, whenever I get home, I take my stuffs inside the house without thinking about the car. With an EV, before I get inside the house, I need to verify if I need to charge it or not. If it needs charged, and other car is occupying the dedicated charging space, then I have to move the other car first... It is not a big deal, but the experience is different.
hunoraut
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

jm1495 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.
And how long in your life have you spent waiting on oil changes?

My last few cars had 1-2 years servicing intervals. They were complimentary. I drop off the car, go to work, and pick it up later.

Conversely, I've visited my Tesla service center about 4 or 5 times this year. That's more frequently than the other dealerships. But it's also painless - drop off, leave, come back.

I can't fathom how, since some people discovered electric cars, that operating traditional cars has been akin to maintaining the space shuttle ?

And in 2020, I believe hulu, netflix, and YouTube are available on your phone as well.
hunoraut
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

chrisam314 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:20 pm Can someone who owns/has owned a Tesla speak to the experience of getting repairs done. Fender bender or otherwise.
As mentioned above I've been back to servicing 4 or 5 times. One was for fender bender bumper replacement. The others were for some minor cosmetic corrections as condition of purchase (e.g. some paint irregularities).

It's fine. The staff are friendly. All scheduling and documentation are electronic so that's convenient. They are busy, so it typically takes a few weeks to secure an appointment - but my issues are all cosmetic so no urgency on my end. Hence no complaints.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: charging an EV

Post by TomatoTomahto »

wander wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:49 am This topic is interesting. All my 30 years of driving, whenever I get home, I take my stuffs inside the house without thinking about the car. With an EV, before I get inside the house, I need to verify if I need to charge it or not. If it needs charged, and other car is occupying the dedicated charging space, then I have to move the other car first... It is not a big deal, but the experience is different.
We currently (ha!) only have one EV, but the charging cable is long enough that it would reach either car. As you park the car, you know whether you should charge it or not, just as you know whether to charge your phone when you go to bed. I usually just plug it in. Takes all of 5 seconds, and I’m a slow mover.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
Ryzen
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Ryzen »

hunoraut wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:22 pm
jm1495 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.
And how long in your life have you spent waiting on oil changes?

My last few cars had 1-2 years servicing intervals. They were complimentary. I drop off the car, go to work, and pick it up later.

Conversely, I've visited my Tesla service center about 4 or 5 times this year. That's more frequently than the other dealerships. But it's also painless - drop off, leave, come back.

I can't fathom how, since some people discovered electric cars, that operating traditional cars has been akin to maintaining the space shuttle ?

And in 2020, I believe hulu, netflix, and YouTube are available on your phone as well.
I think it goes back to the posts earlier about the cult of EV fanboys. Arguable, the adoption of hybrids (which Toyota and Ford both had figured out in the early 2000s) was greatly harmed by the 'image' crafted by the hybrid cult back in the day. People still associate hybrids with strange people hypermiling their Prius. The same thing is happening with EVs (and definitely with self-driving) because some of the claims are so absurd. EV's are good, period, but that doesn't mean ICE vehicles are fred flintstone cars.
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

Valuethinker wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:18 am

Thank you that is interesting.

TCO estimates show similar costs of owning right now. Higher upfront costs for EVs however have distributional implications. What will the lower income groups (that own cars) drive?

European gasoline prices are far higher than American. So the tilt towards EVs is easier.
No clue. The concept of "beaters" goes out the window with EV's. A beater EV is just an EV in need of a battery. By the time EV's hit "beater" pricing the battery will be dead. EV's might actually appreciate the closer they get to needing a new battery as there will be high demand of those wanting them. I could see dealers literally buying them back at a premium, install a new battery, and sell them. Dealers are going to abuse this to kill the used EV market. This is why the government needs to make sure battery replacement is totally open and available to be done by the consumers themselves.

Rich or poor, the cost of replacing the battery is germane to the TCO of an EV.
NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: charging an EV

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

Tenesmus83 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 5:02 pm I like the idea of reducing pollution so I'm looking at buying an electric vehicle. My main concern is that the small number of charging
stations which would limit long-distance trips. Also, having to wait more than 20 min for a full charge is just too much time.
Anyone have similar hesitation?
I did before I purchased an EV.

Now I spend less time thinking about where to charge my car, than I used to spend trying to decide where to get gas.

Unless you live in Norman, OK or similar it's likely they are easy to find.

20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

And, you don't need/want a full charge, you want 50-70% ; they charge faster below 80%.
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein
HopeToGolf
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Re: charging an EV

Post by HopeToGolf »

For day to day use most EVs will work. For my use case, owning a Tesla has been easy and it will be difficult for me to consider another EV. I wanted my EV experience to be a no brainer. I never wanted to have range anxiety or to really have to think much about ensuring I had enough to power. The EVangelists would find this appalling since I bought the longest range possible even thought my normal daily commute was ~20 miles. By buying a Tesla with a ~310 mile range,I can travel when I want to, not charge every day, go on a driving vacation knowing that SuperChargers are likely available.

The SuperCharger network is underrated. At least on the East Coast, it makes owning a Tesla incredibly simple and makes range anxiety a thing of the past.
hunoraut
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 pm
20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

the exaggerations in here boggles
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

Ryzen wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:48 pm
hunoraut wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 2:22 pm
jm1495 wrote: Wed Aug 26, 2020 8:02 am The great thing about my Tesla is that I don't have to "wait" while the oil gets changed, or any other maintenance is done. I don't have to wait at a gas station for my car to refuel when I'm at home. The few cases where I'm on a road trip and have to supercharge I usually need to stop to use the restroom, eat, stretch my legs, walk the dog etc. In the rare case that I have absolutely nothing to do while supercharging I can watch Hulu, Netflix, or YouTube for a few minutes.
And how long in your life have you spent waiting on oil changes?

My last few cars had 1-2 years servicing intervals. They were complimentary. I drop off the car, go to work, and pick it up later.

Conversely, I've visited my Tesla service center about 4 or 5 times this year. That's more frequently than the other dealerships. But it's also painless - drop off, leave, come back.

I can't fathom how, since some people discovered electric cars, that operating traditional cars has been akin to maintaining the space shuttle ?

And in 2020, I believe hulu, netflix, and YouTube are available on your phone as well.
I think it goes back to the posts earlier about the cult of EV fanboys. Arguable, the adoption of hybrids (which Toyota and Ford both had figured out in the early 2000s) was greatly harmed by the 'image' crafted by the hybrid cult back in the day. People still associate hybrids with strange people hypermiling their Prius. The same thing is happening with EVs (and definitely with self-driving) because some of the claims are so absurd. EV's are good, period, but that doesn't mean ICE vehicles are fred flintstone cars.
I noticed that hybrids were a thing when all the taxi companies moved to them. In London (licensed black cabs are a legally restricted model w a tight turning circle; minicab companies however can pick cars) and in New York. Hybrids were slow to take off in Europe on account of widespread diesel car use.

I think you always get strange groups of enthusiasts (there is in north London, England, one for Dodge Chargers, and it includes the screen writer for the movie Vanishing Point) around cars.

It's hard for me to see how that would affect demand for the cars.
krafty81
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Re: charging an EV

Post by krafty81 »

Take a look at the new EA network. Also look at the fact that every major automaker is rolling out EVs over the next year. I am getting a Mustang Mach E myself. I looked at the network and that will be more than fine for my distance needs in CA.
Valuethinker
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Valuethinker »

wander wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:49 am This topic is interesting. All my 30 years of driving, whenever I get home, I take my stuffs inside the house without thinking about the car. With an EV, before I get inside the house, I need to verify if I need to charge it or not. If it needs charged, and other car is occupying the dedicated charging space, then I have to move the other car first... It is not a big deal, but the experience is different.
As per other poster, until I had a smartphone I didn't use to worry about plugging my phone in, either. Now it is a habit.

I grew up w one door lock. Now I have 3, each one has to be locked and unlocked when I leave and enter the house.

Thermostat is turned up and down when I leave & enter the house (my retail natural gas price is 3x-4x Americsn one).

You get used to doing these things automatically.

Key thing from a grid point of view is to discourage charging from 4 pm to 8 pm, and to encourage it from 11pm to 7 am.
NewMoneyMustBeSmart
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Re: charging an EV

Post by NewMoneyMustBeSmart »

hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:27 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 pm
20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

the exaggerations in here boggles
I'm ignorant. Am I exaggerating? When I go to Costco in the suburban it seems like it takes 10 min - maybe I'm not thinking about it properly?
-- | Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts - Einstein
Millennial
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Millennial »

chrisam314 wrote: Thu Aug 27, 2020 9:20 pm Can someone who owns/has owned a Tesla speak to the experience of getting repairs done. Fender bender or otherwise.
We had a major sideswipe - thankfully no injuries, but $27k in damage.

We live in a major city and have a Tesla certified body shop less than 10 miles away. We dropped the car off there. They were somewhat backed up, so it took them about 3 weeks to really start the repair. During that time, they were able to get all parts so there were no further delays. They did a great job communicating throughout the process, and finished in time for a road trip we had informed them of. This was in Sept 2019.

Not sure if we just got lucky, but overall the process was smooth. There are no signs of the repair present after completion. We were not at fault, though we had the same insurance as the party who was at fault (Geico). No issue getting them to pay. The rental car was needed for 6 weeks, so the body shop did need to submit something to state that the repair was still in process because geico's "typical" repair time for that repair was 4 weeks.
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mmmodem
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mmmodem »

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:12 pm
hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:27 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 pm
20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

the exaggerations in here boggles
I'm ignorant. Am I exaggerating? When I go to Costco in the suburban it seems like it takes 10 min - maybe I'm not thinking about it properly?
You're not exaggerating. Most people that gas up only counts the 3-5 minutes when the nozzle is in the fuel tank. But that's not the only time needed to get gas. They do not account for the time it takes to slow down and turn into the gas station. There's also stepping outside and paying. Then there's the time to pull back out onto the street after filling up. I did a few tests with my commute passing by my go-to gas station that is on my way home. It averaged about 10 minutes delta between getting gas or going straight home. I drove a small economy car with a 10 gallon average fill up. I paid with a credit card at the pump and I didn't count it if I had to wait for the stall. In other words, that's best case scenario for filling gas.
stoptothink
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Re: charging an EV

Post by stoptothink »

mmmodem wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:32 pm
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:12 pm
hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:27 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 pm
20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

the exaggerations in here boggles
I'm ignorant. Am I exaggerating? When I go to Costco in the suburban it seems like it takes 10 min - maybe I'm not thinking about it properly?
You're not exaggerating. Most people that gas up only counts the 3-5 minutes when the nozzle is in the fuel tank. But that's not the only time needed to get gas. They do not account for the time it takes to slow down and turn into the gas station. There's also stepping outside and paying. Then there's the time to pull back out onto the street after filling up. I did a few tests with my commute passing by my go-to gas station that is on my way home. It averaged about 10 minutes delta between getting gas or going straight home. I drove a small economy car with a 10 gallon average fill up. I paid with a credit card at the pump and I didn't count it if I had to wait for the stall. In other words, that's best case scenario for filling gas.
:oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
ballons
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Re: charging an EV

Post by ballons »

NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:12 pm
hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:27 am
NewMoneyMustBeSmart wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 5:06 pm
20 min may sound like a pain, but it takes a good half that to fill your gas tank.

the exaggerations in here boggles
I'm ignorant. Am I exaggerating? When I go to Costco in the suburban it seems like it takes 10 min - maybe I'm not thinking about it properly?
20 minutes charge =/= a tesla from empty to full capacity.
Just because you drive a Suburban ICE =/= everyone drives a Suburban ICE
You are failing to compare to an equivalent EV Suburban.
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Nate79
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Nate79 »

I filled up my car at Costco today and it took about 3min from turning in the leaving. I pay at the pump (the only option and the option that 99.9% people do in the real world).
Old Guy
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Old Guy »

One of try main concerns with the Tesla is having to take my eyes off the road to use the touch screen. I know you can do verbal commands but some YouTube reviewers found that it is not always responsive. Tesla owners what has your experience been?
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wander
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Re: charging an EV

Post by wander »

Valuethinker wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 9:01 am
wander wrote: Fri Aug 28, 2020 10:49 am This topic is interesting. All my 30 years of driving, whenever I get home, I take my stuffs inside the house without thinking about the car. With an EV, before I get inside the house, I need to verify if I need to charge it or not. If it needs charged, and other car is occupying the dedicated charging space, then I have to move the other car first... It is not a big deal, but the experience is different.
As per other poster, until I had a smartphone I didn't use to worry about plugging my phone in, either. Now it is a habit.

I grew up w one door lock. Now I have 3, each one has to be locked and unlocked when I leave and enter the house.

Thermostat is turned up and down when I leave & enter the house (my retail natural gas price is 3x-4x Americsn one).

You get used to doing these things automatically.

Key thing from a grid point of view is to discourage charging from 4 pm to 8 pm, and to encourage it from 11pm to 7 am.
+1. I am thinking to get an EV or PHEV when I give up on my car (or the other way around). My car is at 400k right now, it will happen soon.
Normchad
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

Old Guy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:49 pm One of try main concerns with the Tesla is having to take my eyes off the road to use the touch screen. I know you can do verbal commands but some YouTube reviewers found that it is not always responsive. Tesla owners what has your experience been?
I never have to use the touch screen while the car is moving. Everything you need to do while driving can be done without taking your hands off the wheel.

Some people however might choose to use the screen while driving, which I think is dumb and likely to lead to an accident.

Some functions are only available via the screen. But nothing you need to operate the car. For example, if you want to see your tire pressure, that is done with the screen. Just do it at a red light or whatever.
hunoraut
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

Old Guy wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 3:49 pm One of try main concerns with the Tesla is having to take my eyes off the road to use the touch screen. I know you can do verbal commands but some YouTube reviewers found that it is not always responsive. Tesla owners what has your experience been?
Overall, it's fine. Whatever.

The voice commands are 60%. They can't do some basic stuff, such as "switch to radio".

The good part is the touch-screen implementation is faster and smoother than any other car. E.g., the navigation is far and away superior than any other I've ever seen.

The bad part is that certain functions NEED dedicated physical controls, and the on-screen replacement is not adequate. E.g., I want to change the climate fan speed. I have to: (1) touch the fan icon (2) move my finger to the fan speed display (3) tap tap tap to set the speed (4) swipe or touch to restore the display to default state

People will inevitably make some sort of Blackberry vs iPhone comparison, that physical controls are antiquated. The reality is that phones are typically operated with both hands while you're static, as opposed to poking a screen while driving. The human experience is not the same.

So it's a positive that most of the controls are built into the screen. But certain physical controls (climate, entertainment scroll) should have dedicated physical controllers
hunoraut
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Re: charging an EV

Post by hunoraut »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:38 pm
:oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
It's nauseating at times, reading this stuff.
squirm
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Re: charging an EV

Post by squirm »

hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:31 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:38 pm
:oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
It's nauseating at times, reading this stuff.
The problem is the there is no "scoring" of replies. If there was, you could just bypass the garbage replies and just jump to the top two or three.
Normchad
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Re: charging an EV

Post by Normchad »

hunoraut wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 4:31 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:38 pm
:oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
It's nauseating at times, reading this stuff.
Some of it is for sure.

In 30+ years of driving, stopping for gas has never been an issue to me. I’ve had to wait 10 minutes for a pump before. And I found a gas station that was out of gas before. But those are memorable, because they are so rare. So getting gas has never been a hassle or time sink for me.

I’ve got an EV now that I charge almost exclusively at home. Charging is a non issue for me. I don’t even think about it, in the same way that I never thought about getting gas.

I think this is all getting blown out of proportion. I think for most people, both of these are complete non issues.

I think EV charging would only be an issue for folks that would frequently need to charge someplace other than home. If you have a 250 mile commute, gas is probably more convenient. If you make 1200 mile road trips every other weekend, gas is probably more convenient.

For anybody really interested in this stuff, if you haven’t driven an EV, you should try it out.

If you feel unsafe at gas stations, you are likely to feel unsafe at EV charging stations too. A lot of them are at gas stations. But if you do all your charging at home, that wouldn’t be a concern.

Gas is hands down more convenient and readily available. The only real question is, how often do you need to stop somewhere other than home to charge. For me, it was three times in one year....
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mmmodem
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mmmodem »

stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:38 pm :oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
8-) ditto. The amount of FUD on EV's... It's funny and then it's just sad. It's like reading about people holding onto their landlines.

And no gas is not hands down more convenient than charging an EV.
canderson
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Re: charging an EV

Post by canderson »

I will buy an EV when in the dead of winter we can drive the 175 miles each way to NYC and back home on a single charge. We often do theater daytrips and I don’t want to stop at 11 pm in February to charge.*

I’d get a RAV4 Prime but a) they’re impossible to find and b) if you do they’re going at a minimum $5k over MSRP and I’m not paying $50k+ for a Toyota.

Our friends have a Model 3 and love it but winter range is a legitimate drawback. It’s likely better now Tesla installed a heat pump for the battery.

* I should say an EV at least as big as the Tesla Model Y. We are a one-car household so a compact SUV is a requirement. Our current RAV4 Hybrid can often get more than 600 miles in a 13.5 gallon of gas.
esqu1re
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Re: charging an EV

Post by esqu1re »

canderson wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:21 pm I will buy an EV when in the dead of winter we can drive the 175 miles each way to NYC and back home on a single charge. We often do theater daytrips and I don’t want to stop at 11 pm in February to charge.*

I’d get a RAV4 Prime but a) they’re impossible to find and b) if you do they’re going at a minimum $5k over MSRP and I’m not paying $50k+ for a Toyota.

Our friends have a Model 3 and love it but winter range is a legitimate drawback. It’s likely better now Tesla installed a heat pump for the battery.

* I should say an EV at least as big as the Tesla Model Y. We are a one-car household so a compact SUV is a requirement. Our current RAV4 Hybrid can often get more than 600 miles in a 13.5 gallon of gas.
I think in another 10 years or so, battery tech will get there.
stoptothink
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Re: charging an EV

Post by stoptothink »

mmmodem wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 6:09 pm
stoptothink wrote: Sat Aug 29, 2020 12:38 pm :oops: This is getting hilarious. Great entertainment.
8-) ditto. The amount of FUD on EV's... It's funny and then it's just sad. It's like reading about people holding onto their landlines.

And no gas is not hands down more convenient than charging an EV.
While I'll likely never buy another ICE vehicle, the absurd statements we've seen many times in this thread almost make me not want to join the EV club.
mnsportsgeek
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Re: charging an EV

Post by mnsportsgeek »

alexander29 wrote: Sat Aug 22, 2020 6:47 pm I recently got a long-range (315 mile) Tesla and love it. So far I've only charged at home, and for local trips a charge will easily last a week or more. But you do need to think about where you want to go. The company advises routinely charging the battery only to 90 percent to extend its life, and most of us wouldn't want to go below 10 percent and risk being stranded. So 80 percent of 315 becomes 252, although you CAN charge to 100 percent for the occasional trip. The range will degrade slightly over time. Heat, cold, weight, wet roads, hills, and wind can also trim range: on the worst days your "real world" risk-free range with a normal charge might drop towards 220 miles or so. For most of us that's adequate, and represents three or four hours of nonstop driving, but you need to examine your own needs. It's also easiest to charge at home with a 220 outlet.

I didn't drive my gasoline cars their maximum range either. Nor did they achieve their ideal EPA mpg estimates. For me, the excellent driving characteristics of an EV (you must test drive one!), their quiet, their zero emissions, and the satisfaction of skipping gas stations and oil changes makes the Tesla a joy. Electricity is cheaper for me than gas, so far saving about $100 a month. The car software is constantly being upgraded. And there are either Tesla superchargers or other auto chargers in most places, with more added all the time.
Out of curiosity, can you tell your Tesla at what % to stop charging or do you have to monitor what percentage you're at and go unplug it?

I don't understand why I can't tell my iPhone to stop charging at 80% to prolong battery capacity.
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