Any good car deals?

[Frugalegal]

Like everyone else, I have been hoping for some good car deals during this pandemic. Has anyone seen anything good?

Looking to buy, not lease. Preferably Honda HRV or Toyota RAV4 or Highlander.

[hudson]

Like everyone else, I have been hoping for some good car deals during this pandemic. Has anyone seen anything good?

Looking to buy, not lease. Preferably Honda HRV or Toyota RAV4 or Highlander.

I don't know about good deals, but this dealer looks to over 100 RAV4s and over 100 Highlanders....according to the website:

https://www.hendricktoyotaapex.com/vehi ... 4.new-true

I didn't investigate; I just took a quick look.

[adamthesmythe]

I recently bought a Rav4. Stock was limited around where I live. The dealer found what I wanted at an acceptable price.

The good news is that they didn't even try to sell an extended warranty.

Hudson's suggested dealer had 13 new Rav4s, comparable to what I saw around where I live.

[lthenderson]

With auto manufacturers shut down for awhile due to Covid and large stimulus checks mailed out, stocks have been very limited in my area too.

[dstring]

A friend of mine just got a great price on a new Mazda CX 30 with 0% for 60 months. I'm not very familiar with Mazda products but it seems like a very nice vehicle overall.

[prairieman]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

[Helo80]

Like everyone else, I have been hoping for some good car deals during this pandemic. Has anyone seen anything good?

It's a sellers market.

[palanzo]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185.

What a steal for a Boglehead.

[Helo80]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

My gut is that those won't be a "good deal" for awhile unless you're fine with paying sticker. OP may be fine with that. The Rav4 is the top selling SUV in the country (by 28,000 units compared to number 2, CR-V).

EDIT:
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021 ... -shortage/

"The Japanese carmaker originally planned to build 5,000 RAV4 Primes to the US during its initial production year. "

In the first half of 2020, Rav4 sold 85,729 units.

[Helo80]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,1851.

What a steal for a Boglehead.

On top of that, you'll have the Prime fetching a premium over hybrids and gas models... making the compact SUV even more pricier for "like". If you're in a pricey gas area, that could dampen the blow some.

[palanzo]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,1851.

What a steal for a Boglehead.

On top of that, you'll have the Prime fetching a premium over hybrids and gas models... making the compact SUV even more pricier for "like". If you're in a pricey gas area, that could dampen the blow some.

Agreed. Not to mention the cost of battery replacement at some point or accelerated depreciation due to subsequent buyer having to replace the battery.

[New Providence]

With auto manufacturers shut down for awhile due to Covid and large stimulus checks mailed out, stocks have been very limited in my area too.

Doubt that a stimulus check will help to buy a "Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185." automobile.

[ballons]

Financing? Sure. OTD price? No. Car dealers won't have deals until heading into the fall as 2021's arrive. Right now the used (craigslist/etc) and CPO market is what I would look at.

e.g. my local toyota dealer has tons of 2020 CPO vehicles with < 100 miles. Some as low as 1 mile. Looks like dealers may be getting rid of customer loaner vehicles since customers aren't showing up or it's a sneaky way of liquidating excess inventory.

[adamthesmythe]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

The drum says the Rav4 Prime is going to be in very high demand so I think you can assume there will be no deals, maybe even premium pricing.

[arsenalfan]

RAV4 prime was my great hope.
Not now - only 5000 coming to US due to battery production issues, and going only to select states.
They're aiming for 20000 in 2021.
Definitely no deals to be had.

[Helo80]

RAV4 prime was my great hope.
Not now - only 5000 coming to US due to battery production issues, and going only to select states.
They're aiming for 20000 in 2021.
Definitely no deals to be had.

I'm not closely watching this vehicle, but I think Rav4 Prime has always been a 2021 model.

Then, the CNET article here: https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021 ... -shortage/ says that Toyota planned to build 5,000 during their initial production year (I assume MY21), but that might not happen with current battery production issues.

I don't think the car is realistically obtainable at this point, and even if Toyota does manage to build 5,000 units... Wikipedia says Toyota has "over 1,200 dealerships".... so 5,000/1,200 = 4.16 cars per dealership. Also, I heard that some states will not be getting the vehicle, but I could be wrong.

[Helo80]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

The drum says the Rav4 Prime is going to be in very high demand so I think you can assume there will be no deals, maybe even premium pricing.

Me being optimistic, I think you'll be lucky to pay sticker. However, when new information has come to light from https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021 ... -shortage/ that only 5,000 units were initially planned for MY21, and they may not even hit that with battery production.... My gut tells me that ADMs will be standard. ADMs are going to price out most of the BH market. Heck, sticker will as well.

[Taz]

Daughter (& I) bought a 2020 Hyundai Kona SE recently after she moved out of state. We liked the standard safety features and warranty. Fit isn't as nice as the CRV & RAV4 but we've been happy with our 2012 Sonata. Manufacture's rebate was 2,225 plus my 500 military discount. Used TrueCar through out bank to get quotes due to time constraints. Their additional discount beat the other dealerships. Not sure if they were playing games but when we got to the showroom the discount was $700 less. Daughter saved the screenshot so they honored it. Couldn't get 0% dealer financing with rebate but the "Bank of Dad" came through. They made money on the trade-in but the 18 year old minivan (which limped onto the lot) wouldn't have passed the inspection/emissions test without pouring money several hundred into it.

[lazydavid]

Agreed. Not to mention the cost of battery replacement at some point or accelerated depreciation due to subsequent buyer having to replace the battery.

This is the myth that refuses to die. Battery pack failure in hybrids has proven to be incredibly rare. Dramatically more rare than, say, transmission failure on gasoline cars. Consumer Reports tested a Prius for 215,000 miles, with the only part on the entire car needing replacement being a fan belt at 127,000 miles. They found the battery performance at that age to be nearly identical to new. Hybrid taxicabs are regularly retired between 300k and 350k miles, still on the original battery.

Even in the tremendously unlikely event that the battery needs replacing, a new battery from Toyota runs around $2600 after the core credit for the existing one, and requires about 2 hours of shop time. Hardly a life-altering repair if it does eventually happen to your car at 500k miles. And to avoid risking the remote possibility of this <$3000 repair, the preference is to buy the vehicle that gets 28mpg, over the one that gets 42mpg?

Now, I'm the farthest thing from a hybrid apologist--my two vehicles are a twin turbo sedan with an aftermarket tune that will liquefy the rear tires with a stab of the fun pedal, and a supercharged SUV--I just find it tiresome to keep reading the same old long-debunked tropes.

[Jack FFR1846]

Is there a recent study that shows both how long on average a battery pack lasts and also the cost to replace?

I don't know anything about the new cars. My sister in law has an early Prius, lives in Tucson and has replaced the battery pack 3 times. (once under warranty). I understand my sample of one is meaningless and the niMetHydride pack may have been updated in newer models....I don't know.

I do wish Toyota would build a sports car that adds power with electric rather than just conserving energy. I know they can do this because their LeMans LMP1 cars are dominant on the racetrack and use electric in this way. I'd love a car like the old Honda CR-Z with a manual transmission and added power from electric. I know they can do this as Toyota supplies the system for the new Subaru Crosstrek hybrid which results in lower 0-60 times.

[lazydavid]

I do wish Toyota would build a sports car that adds power with electric rather than just conserving energy. I know they can do this because their LeMans LMP1 cars are dominant on the racetrack and use electric in this way. I'd love a car like the old Honda CR-Z with a manual transmission and added power from electric. I know they can do this as Toyota supplies the system for the new Subaru Crosstrek hybrid which results in lower 0-60 times.

Lexus used to have several "performance hybrids". The LS600hL combined a 5.0L V8 with a hybrid system to try to compete with the German V12 flagships. The GS450h was far and away the fastest of the GS lineup, and even the more pedestrian RX400h was well up on power over its gas-powered sibling. So yes, they can absolutely do it. Will they? Seems unlikely. The LC sports coupe would have been the perfect opportunity to do so, but the hybrid version is a pure economy play, while the V8 is the version you actually want.

That said, I could be wrong. After all, the RAV4 Prime is dramatically faster than anything else in the RAV4 lineup, whether purely gas-powered or hybrid. So maybe they are headed back that way.

[protagonist]

At $2/gallon the cost of fuel per 10,000 miles is:
at 30 mpg: $666
at 40 mpg : $500
at 50 mpg: $400
at 60 mpg: $333

At $3/gallon:
30 mpg: $999
40 mpg: $750
50 mpg: $600
60 mpg: $500

If you are buying for fuel economy, these differences are , IMHO, pretty trivial, unless you do a LOT of city driving. My Hyundai Elantra (gas model) gets well over 40 mpg on the highway.

[retired recently]

We have a 2011 Prius with 215K miles and so far the battery is doing well. We used to easily get 62-65 MPG but now are in the mid 50's. No issues so far except just the other day the AC compressor went out...trying to find someone that can replace it as I hate to put more than about 1500 into it....if we can hold out, I would love to get the RAV4 or a Tesla in the future...

[prairieman]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185.

What a steal for a Boglehead.

I think a Prime is a very Boglehead thing to purchase. There will still likely be tax incentives (I’m getting $4502 back for my 2020 Prius Prime) and the cost of driving it in electric mode (summer) is .02 per mile. Over time this car pays me back a little every time I drive it. Plus the electric miles are the most pleasant driving experience I have had.
I agree, though, that the RAV4 Prime will be initially in short supply and so paying full price might be the norm.

[lthenderson]

With auto manufacturers shut down for awhile due to Covid and large stimulus checks mailed out, stocks have been very limited in my area too.

Doubt that a stimulus check will help to buy a "Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185." automobile.

I have a friend who owns a dealership. He loves it every spring when people get their tax refunds back and on the rare occasions a government stimulus check. You are correct that it isn't enough to buy a car at those prices but it is certainly enough to finance one. His sales just about doubled for a month after the stimulus check came out and almost all financed the vehicle. I'm fairly certain none were bogleheads.

[tibbitts]

With auto manufacturers shut down for awhile due to Covid and large stimulus checks mailed out, stocks have been very limited in my area too.

Doubt that a stimulus check will help to buy a "Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185." automobile.

The stimulus checks have a psychological effect, and will make a couple of payments at least, which is how most people approach the buying decision.

[palanzo]

Is there a recent study that shows both how long on average a battery pack lasts and also the cost to replace?

I don't know anything about the new cars. My sister in law has an early Prius, lives in Tucson and has replaced the battery pack 3 times. (once under warranty). I understand my sample of one is meaningless and the niMetHydride pack may have been updated in newer models....I don't know.

I do wish Toyota would build a sports car that adds power with electric rather than just conserving energy. I know they can do this because their LeMans LMP1 cars are dominant on the racetrack and use electric in this way. I'd love a car like the old Honda CR-Z with a manual transmission and added power from electric. I know they can do this as Toyota supplies the system for the new Subaru Crosstrek hybrid which results in lower 0-60 times.

According to lazydavid your sister in law could not have experienced these events.

Here is a writeup of Nissan's problems with batteries. Not Toyota I know.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/29/ni ... batteries/

[palanzo]

At $2/gallon the cost of fuel per 10,000 miles is:
at 30 mpg: $666
at 40 mpg : $500
at 50 mpg: $400
at 60 mpg: $333

At $3/gallon:
30 mpg: $999
40 mpg: $750
50 mpg: $600
60 mpg: $500

If you are buying for fuel economy, these differences are , IMHO, pretty trivial, unless you do a LOT of city driving. My Hyundai Elantra (gas model) gets well over 40 mpg on the highway.

+1 So many people miss this point because they don't do the calculations. They see 30mpg and then 42mpg and think they are saving $1000s per year. They are not.

[palanzo]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

Starting at $38,100 and going up to $47,185.

What a steal for a Boglehead.

I think a Prime is a very Boglehead thing to purchase. There will still likely be tax incentives (I’m getting $4502 back for my 2020 Prius Prime) and the cost of driving it in electric mode (summer) is .02 per mile. Over time this car pays me back a little every time I drive it. Plus the electric miles are the most pleasant driving experience I have had.
I agree, though, that the RAV4 Prime will be initially in short supply and so paying full price might be the norm.

I don't think it is a Boglehead thing to do because the Prime is more expensive over say 150,000 miles than an efficient gas powered vehicle. Take a look at what KBB says.

[Frugalegal]

Just a follow up. I’m looking for something around 20k or lower. I have money budgeted, not a stimulus check purchase. Can be used. I preferred gas rav 4 or Honda hrv because of the size and utility. I don’t really do much city driving, mostly highway three days a week for commute. We have dogs , future kid and kayaks to fit so we don’t need something huge but bigger than our four door sedan.

I’m thinking Craig’s list might be a good way to go.

Thanks everyone!

[hudson]

Just a follow up. I’m looking for something around 20k or lower. I have money budgeted, not a stimulus check purchase. Can be used. I preferred gas rav 4 or Honda hrv because of the size and utility. I don’t really do much city driving, mostly highway three days a week for commute. We have dogs , future kid and kayaks to fit so we don’t need something huge but bigger than our four door sedan.

I’m thinking Craig’s list might be a good way to go.

Thanks everyone!

Maybe price compare at Carmax.
Here's a dealer with some Rav4s in your price range: https://www.leithtoyota.com/searchused.aspx?q=rav4

[UpperNwGuy]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

[02nz]

Is there a recent study that shows both how long on average a battery pack lasts and also the cost to replace?

I don't know anything about the new cars. My sister in law has an early Prius, lives in Tucson and has replaced the battery pack 3 times. (once under warranty). I understand my sample of one is meaningless and the niMetHydride pack may have been updated in newer models....I don't know.

I do wish Toyota would build a sports car that adds power with electric rather than just conserving energy. I know they can do this because their LeMans LMP1 cars are dominant on the racetrack and use electric in this way. I'd love a car like the old Honda CR-Z with a manual transmission and added power from electric. I know they can do this as Toyota supplies the system for the new Subaru Crosstrek hybrid which results in lower 0-60 times.

According to lazydavid your sister in law could not have experienced these events.

Here is a writeup of Nissan's problems with batteries. Not Toyota I know.

https://cleantechnica.com/2018/09/29/ni ... batteries/

Nissan is probably the one manufacturer that has had really serious problems with EV battery degradation. Unlike most other EVs, the LEAF does without a liquid cooling solution for the battery. Heat degrades battery capacity, so LEAFs are more susceptible (especially in hot climates) to battery degradation than other EVs. For most other EVs, it's largely a non-issue, especially if you don't regularly use fast DC charging (which generates more heat and thus degrades batteries faster).

For conventional hybrids like the Prius, it's even less of an issue. As the battery capacity falls over time, the car won't be able to store as much energy when regenerating. This could make a difference in efficiency, say, when coming down a long incline. But in most daily driving, it will barely matter.

[hudson]

Frugallegal,

Also Carmax looks to have lots of Rav4s: https://www.carmax.com/cars/crossovers/toyota/rav4

[sambb]

depsite demand, all are availanle below invoice. new highlander is nicer than a lexus if you want luxury.

[DesertGator]

Create your own good deal: https://fightingchance.com/

[adamthesmythe]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

Yes, for reasons I cannot discern electric vehicles are always recommended.

Reminds me of some guy who used to post (elsewhere) who recommended a Lincoln Town Car for pretty much every use case.

[Carguy85]

Just bought a new Tundra...invoice and $2500 rebate (I think)no negotiating necessary... among the cheapest within a 300mi search on cars and autotrader. The salesman (guy I’ve worked with for years) said starting back full time in May he thought it would be dead but they had a record month and have been crazy busy since. I’m not convinced that there is as big of an opportunity for “deals” due to a slump in the economy... at least not yet.

[tibbitts]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

Yes, for reasons I cannot discern electric vehicles are always recommended.

Reminds me of some guy who used to post (elsewhere) who recommended a Lincoln Town Car for pretty much every use case.

On Bogleheads we've had the Crown Vic crowd, not so much the Town Car. Now it would be a Crown Vic converted to run on batteries with solar charging, of course.

[Mrxyz]

FWIW,
I just bought a 2017 RAV 4 XLE, with 70,000 miles for $15,600. Tag, tax, title extra. Was below the KBB price and so went for it. Runs great -no issues.

[SquirrelEater]

Couple of years ago I got a new basic Chevy Spark for $9,798. They listing them now for around $10k. That is the list, so actual sale price can be lower. Wife is thinking of a new car - Chevy Trax. Some of those are listed 14-16k new. By the time we, and possibly you trade in or sell the existing car, the new car acquisition cost is significantly reduced to a hilariously small/manageable sum (the used prices on my wife’s car is borderline immoral considering near guaranteed Nissian CVT transmission failure, thus why we looking to sell) due to 14-16k.
Trax are turboed. Good for high elevations if that is a thing for you. Lots of storage cubbies under trunk floor if stashing preparations within vehicle is a thing for you. Headroom is impressive. Also made in Bupyeong, South Korea. Also a fraction of Toyota cost. Why buy used when you can buy No drama new?
I’ve had good past experiences with cars made in Bupyeong region like my previous car an Aveo. I like to think it is all from the same people there.

[tibbitts]

It seems like the prices on older (more than a year or so) and higher-mileage (might be just 20-30k miles) cars are often excessive, and usually the older and more high-mileage the worse. That's increasingly true due to the complexity and difficulty of repairs that is being engineered into so many cars today. It's like they're being priced only for people who have the time and inclination and equipment to d-i-y repairs. Some models do drop a lot in that first year or two and can be a good value due to the high percentage of warranty left. I'd tend to think the market is efficient, but it doesn't seem that way.

[Helo80]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

OP needs to be put out of his misery and just buy a Subaru.

[grettman]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

OP needs to be put out of his misery and just buy a Subaru.

Why not a Camry?

[UpperNwGuy]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

OP needs to be put out of his misery and just buy a Subaru.

I can't argue with that. I'm planning to buy a Subaru Forester in the next few weeks. I hear it's a true "boglehead car."

[evancox10]

Depending on your driving habits, I would look into RAV4 Prime. I can’t overstate how nice driving a partly electric vehicle is (quiet, cheap mileage, low maintenance) if you drive fewer miles than you can recharge in your garage most nights.

The drum says the Rav4 Prime is going to be in very high demand so I think you can assume there will be no deals, maybe even premium pricing.

Me being optimistic, I think you'll be lucky to pay sticker. However, when new information has come to light from https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/2021 ... -shortage/ that only 5,000 units were initially planned for MY21, and they may not even hit that with battery production.... My gut tells me that ADMs will be standard. ADMs are going to price out most of the BH market. Heck, sticker will as well.

What is an “ADM”?

[adamthesmythe]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

OP needs to be put out of his misery and just buy a Subaru.

I can't argue with that. I'm planning to buy a Subaru Forester in the next few weeks. I hear it's a true "boglehead car."

No, we have to have a debate about head gasket seals first.

BTW I watched a video taking apart a boxer engine. Man, that thing is weird.

[UpperNwGuy]

What a bizarre thread. OP asks about good car deals, and gives examples of cars, all of which are gasoline powered. Bogleheads immediately suggest a higher-priced electric vehicle and then launch into a lengthy debate about the longevity of the batteries that power electric vehicles. The poor OP never got a real answer.

OP needs to be put out of his misery and just buy a Subaru.

I can't argue with that. I'm planning to buy a Subaru Forester in the next few weeks. I hear it's a true "boglehead car."

No, we have to have a debate about head gasket seals first.

BTW I watched a video taking apart a boxer engine. Man, that thing is weird.

Good news! They fixed the head gasket seals.

[sambb]

not a fan of electric. plenty of deals on sedans like camry or accord. Plenty of deals on subaru. You can do well with any of them. Also consider larger SUVs if you want the size. Much safer to have more mass in some car-car collisions.

[Helo80]

What is an “ADM”?

Additional Dealer Markup.

E.g. MSRP + Dealer fee.

E.g. We have a 2020 corvette, and you can buy it today for MSRP + $20,000.